California: Finally legalizing pot? by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

California: Finally legalizing pot?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 14:01
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Monday, March 29, 2010 8:34 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, it's a move to improve our financial situation, but I get a kick out of it anyway. Just shows dollars outweigh most things in the end!

I heard a debate by two pundits on it on TV, which was even funnier. The guy opposed couldn't come up with good debate points, so was doing the old "gateway drug" and "children will get their hands on it" and "it's deleterious to health", etc. The same lies and propaganda we've heard from the government for decades.

He got stymied when his opponent brought up booze in the debate. All he could do was say yes, booze is bad for you, but why add another bad drug...? It was fun to watch, and yes, I'm in favor of it. It's absurd; you can virtually smoke it openly around here, the police aren't going to be bothered as they have more important things to do. The money wasted by the feds to fight in this state is a total waste, so it would be good to see them quit.

Quote:
A decade ago, legalizing medical marijuana seemed like a radical notion. But today—with 13 states on board and New Jersey days away from becoming the 14th—full-on legalization of the drug appears to be the pro-pot lobby's next frontier, and California is the pioneer. A key Golden State legislative committee has approved, 4–3, a bill to legalize the drug and tax it like alcohol, potentially raising billions to resolve California's budget crisis. Is the bill just a long shot, or is it a viable way for the state to ward off financial ruin? (Watch a report about California's efforts to legalize marijuana)

Hooray for California! This historic marijuana-legalization vote "is huge news not only for the pot smokers of America, but for the people of California," says Nicole Sandler at Air America. Taxing pot would add more than $1 billion to the state's dangerously depleted coffers. But the best part is, "the rest of the country may soon follow suit," just as it has with medical marijuana.

(more at http://theweek.com/article/index/105014/California_Finally_legalizing_
pot )

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, March 29, 2010 1:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Dollars outweigh EVERYTHING, when it comes right down to it.

I actually heard a conservative economist admit that the healthcare reform bill absolutely WILL save lives, "but at what cost?" - his words, not mine. So when it comes to saving Iraqi lives from a monster like Saddam, no cost could possibly be too high; when it comes to saving American lives right here at home? Mehhh... Not that interested, it would seem.

As to pot - you know WHY it's a "gateway drug" (assuming it even is)? Because the drug dealer you get it from now also happens to be selling other illegal drugs as well, and he's in the sales business, just like your doctor is with his LEGAL drugs. Sell, sell, sell, then UPSELL, UPSELL, UPSELL!

So far as it's treated like booze - no going to work high, no toking and driving, no selling to kids, etc. - I don't see the downside. Legalize it tomorrow, and I for one won't be running out to buy it or smoke up. I just never liked the way it made me feel, but for those who do, more power to 'em. I know people who prefer pot and hate drinking, so who am I to say that I'm right and they're wrong?

I'd like to see California do it. And for all those here who say that the states should have the right to do what they want, and they should be the experimental labs for new ideas, this should be a no-brainer. Here's a chance to try a grand experiment on a grand scale. Let's see where it goes!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, March 29, 2010 1:47 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I got no problem w/ pot being legalized.

I find it funny, how some on the Left are trying to tax cigarettes and cigars into oblivion, ( while bankrolling all manner of health care on it ) and yet the ACTUAL Liberals are staying true to their own and pushing this forward.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Monday, March 29, 2010 3:12 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I got no problem w/ pot being legalized.

I find it funny, how some on the Left are trying to tax cigarettes and cigars into oblivion, ( while bankrolling all manner of health care on it ) and yet the ACTUAL Liberals are staying true to their own and pushing this forward.

Actually, I don't think they're trying to tax them "into oblivion" - they're trying to tax them as heavily as they can, because they're seen as a cash cow that can be used to pay for some of the damage they cause. Call it "pay-go" writ small. :)

And do you honestly really not think that anyone is planning on taxing pot if it's legalized? Think tobacco tax AND alcohol tax added together, and you're on the right track to imagining the pot tax.

That's entirely the point behind the idea of legalizing it. Actually, two points:

1) Remove it from the purview of law enforcement, take cops off the job of running down pot sellers and growers. That saves tax money and puts them doing things that are actually USEFUL to the community (supposing cops are actually interested in being useful to their communities, that is).

2) Tax the living shit out of if. Also, any establishments that serve or sell will have to have the pot equivalent of a liquor license, which means more fees paid to government.

So it's a win-win-win for government: save money on useless law enforcement, get cops back to doing what they should be doing in the first place (solving REAL crimes), and provide a lucrative new revenue stream for the state government.

Also, as an extra benefit, you also get a nice new cash crop for farmers to compete for - and I'm sure they'll need to be certified and/or licensed to do so.

Not trying to piss on anyone's parade here; just trying to point out some of the possible windfalls and advantages.

And I'm not suggesting there are no risks or disadvantages. I'm sure there are. But it would also stimulate the snack-food industry. ;)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, March 29, 2010 4:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Tobacco is legal, and yet it's vilified to the hilt, by all the very touchy / feely types who paint its very existence as Satan's own device.

And yet, these are the very same folks use tobacco, via its tax revenue, to control behavior ? Hell no, they claim tobacco use is anathema to humanity, yet they NEED it to fund - anything they say they need to. Quite the catch 22, is it not ?

And what of the 'gateway ' drug, Pot ? Sure, it'll be taxed, heavily, and I got no problem with that. But will we suffer the public service campaigns, the ads, the edgy, damn near defiant commercials with guys shouting through megaphones , calling out the tobacco execs.... for all manner of crimes against humanity....

Can we expect the same sort of treatment, when the 'evil weed' is legalized ?

One can hope not.....

This being, the era of Hope and Change, I mean.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tobacco is addicting and causes cancer, heart attacks, and emphysema, in ANY amount (even second-hand).

Alcohol, up to about 1 drink per day actually helps you live longer. More than that and the negatives outweigh the positives.

Pot? Good for chemo and pain. Not addicting and not cancer-causing, but doesn't help you live longer either AFAIK.

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Nah, doesn't make you live longer, obviously. Maybe makes part of that living more fun, but it's no better than alcohol or cigs, just NO WORSE.

I'm one of those, Mike; as a teenager, I couldn't handle booze--booze doesn't like me--but pot didn't bother me, and at parties, most people like to have SOME kind of "escapism". Been smoking it virtually daily since I was 17.

One thing not taken into consideration is that, given pot is a "psychological high", if you smoke it over a long enough time, it only takes one or two tokes to get high...your brain does the rest on its own. Also, tho' not physically addicting, it CAN be a psychological addiction. Tho' I'm not convinced that's a serious problem; I haven't been able to afford any for almost a year now (tho' I found a tiny stash in the freezer a few weeks ago, almost gone now...sigh). While I miss it, I don't think about it and don't "crave" it, so after all these years, you'd think I'd be psychologically addicted if anyone was!

It's always bugged me that alcohol is not only accepted but encouraged in this society, as cigs were,m while "evil weed" is blamed for everything under the sun.

Besides, the biggest drug problem in America today, bar none, is LEGAL prescription drugs; apparently kids are getting high/low/otherwise in huge numbers by raiding mom and dad's medicine cabinet. That's more preferable than pot? Who's kidding who!

Yes, I smoke "medicinal" marijuana, both for pain and because it mellows out my bipolarity in the evenings so I can sleep. But it's more expensive than on the street (which hasn't been the "street" for me, as I have a friend of 30 years in Arcata who supplied me until it was medicinally available). The thing is, to get medicinal, I have to pay about $150 annually for the "official okey-dokey" just to buy it legally, so there's even more funds for the state...given I can't afford that, I'm going back to my friend.

Dope is less harmful than tobacco, as the normal person only smokes a few tokes, while people (like myself) chain smoke cigs all day. I have no problem with the taxes on cigs, I figure it's my own fault for not being able to quit--tho' I do mind the increasing regulation against smoking ANYWHERE in CA, I admit.

But Sig, if used in quantity, it's as able to cause cancer as cigs, just FYI. Nobody does, but it's not good for you, I'll freely admit.

But I agree with Mike: Let the cops do their REAL job and tax the shit out of it. Sounds fair to me...

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:48 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I'd grow it. I've read it helps with pain and I could use all the help that's out there.

What about all the people who are in California jails for pot possession/ sale ? It sure would be a shame to keep them there for something that everyone else would now be able to do. Maybe it would be good to release them and get that much extra budget benefit out of it.

I can see the prisons now - empty echoing halls as the 'pot people' go free.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Here, there aren't that many in jail for pot--usually only dealers who deal in lots of other stuff and major growers. Otherwise, it's pretty much ignored (unless you're caught driving or under age or something). It wouldn't be that big a difference.

But yeah, nationwide I'd like to see it--I had a friend, really wonderful guy, thirty-some years ago, who the feds went after and got him to go to Texas on a ruse so they could bust him, 'cuz in CA they wouldn't get as big a sentence. So yes, in other states, I agree with you...get the pot USERS out of jail, and maybe put as many of those who have multiple DUIs IN as possible!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:07 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

You know, if it was legal, it might encourage people to get their high from pot rather than crack or other more dangerous alternatives.

I had a neighbor who is a very nice woman but pretty manic (in its casual use, I don't think she's bipolar). She works hard, takes care of herself and others when needed, and is in general very responsible, even now. She USED to get mellow with pot when she had a good source. But she lost that source and turned to alcohol, which doesn't help her get mellow but at least knocks her out. Now she's pretty much a functional alcoholic. It would help her quite a bit if it were legal.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:16 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Pot? Good for chemo and pain. Not addicting and not cancer-causing, but doesn't help you live longer either AFAIK.

Unless you smoke cigs. There was an FDA study a few years back, meant to prove pot was worse than cigarettes at causing cancer.... and it turned out to (seemingly, at least) counteract the carcinogenic effect of the tobacco.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:19 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

What about all the people who are in California jails for pot possession/ sale ? It sure would be a shame to keep them there for something that everyone else would now be able to do. Maybe it would be good to release them and get that much extra budget benefit out of it.

I can see the prisons now - empty echoing halls as the 'pot people' go free.

One of the biggest opponents of legalization if the Prison Guard's union. They want as many folk incarcerated as possible.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:19 AM

CAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I actually heard a conservative economist admit that the healthcare reform bill absolutely WILL save lives, "but at what cost?" - his words, not mine.

Well in principle, that could be a perfectly sensible point. If it costs a billion dollars per life, it would be wise to find cheaper ways to save lives.

Any politician wjho says "no cost is too great" should be thrown out of office on the spot.

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Heh, if it was legal I'd grow it. Not 'cause I toke, but just because.

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:11 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I have a serious issue with taxing/demonization and the like, regarding tobacco, and if they do legalize and tax to death, you know what'll happen ?

Nothing will change.

By driving the price out of range, folk will go right back to the illegal street dealers, and THEN the fight will be over tax stamps instead of the legality of product, but with all the same bullshit.

I know this all too well, since the local steet dealers in detroit have added bulk tobacco to their product list in light of a 1300% Tax increase (that is NOT a typo) on it, and some have recently added common medications for the elderly smuggled in from Canada as well.

What's it say when you have to visit the dope man so you can afford grammas blood pressure medication ?

The modern War on (some) Drugs seems to be more about eliminating Big Pharmas competition and justifying huge budgets for Authoritarian jackboot mall ninjas to act like the stormtroopers they always wanted to be instead of any actual benefit to anyone.

-F

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:18 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The nice thing about tobacco, pot, and alcohol is that anyone with an enterprising spirit can grow their own... for personal use, of course.

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:32 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I have a serious issue with taxing/demonization and the like, regarding tobacco, and if they do legalize and tax to death, you know what'll happen ?

Nothing will change.

By driving the price out of range, folk will go right back to the illegal street dealers, and THEN the fight will be over tax stamps instead of the legality of product, but with all the same bullshit.

I know this all too well, since the local steet dealers in detroit have added bulk tobacco to their product list in light of a 1300% Tax increase (that is NOT a typo) on it, and some have recently added common medications for the elderly smuggled in from Canada as well.

What's it say when you have to visit the dope man so you can afford grammas blood pressure medication ?

The modern War on (some) Drugs seems to be more about eliminating Big Pharmas competition and justifying huge budgets for Authoritarian jackboot mall ninjas to act like the stormtroopers they always wanted to be instead of any actual benefit to anyone.

-F

Good point. Hadn't thought about it like that.

And yeah, that big Lilly heist a couple weeks back wasn't because someone needed their meds - it was because some group decided there was more profit in knocking off the manufacturers than in dicking around with street-level hustling of illegal drugs. So because Big Pharma has driven up the prices, a viable black market has sprung up. And it's going to get worse, I'd bet money on that!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Nope, not legally.

I can get away with homebrewing Wine, Beer, Mead - but even for personal use, were I to try brewin some Whiskey they'd be all up in my ass quicklike, and even if you do live somewhere you can wrangle through the super expensive pain in the ass legal hoops, then you've still gotta pay that massive tax hit, over and over again.
(ETA: and didn't we recently discuss a bar savaged by the feds over what beers were and were not federally "approved", neh ?)

Same thing with tobacco.

And of course, Pot will get everything you own seized under asset forfeiture.

Prohibition is Prohibition, no matter what you wanna call it, whether it be by Constitutional Amendment, or by abuse of the tax codes, and all too often it's also a religious or other moral minority attempting to inflict it's values wholesale on the american people, many of whom do not share those values, something THIS Government was intended to help prevent, not support.

Gotta remember, you're talkin to someone who's relatives still brew and run illegal moonshine, and who knows that most of the "dangerous" line of bolus was crap, since the Gov was mostly the ones responsible for even that.

Law or no law, COMMERCE CONTINUES.

And legalize-but-tax-silly will accomplish not a damned thing in the end, since the powers that be will see it as another cash cow like they do tobacco, and drive users to underground, untaxed sources - thus cutting off the revenue and getting into the cycle of higher and higher taxes which'll wind up ever more elusive as the short sighted asshats take a hacksaw to the golden goose.

Not that I much care - just pointin out the blinding, glaring flaw in that great grand plan is all.

-F

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:55 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

There is a thriving underground economy in buying tobacco on Indian reservations and hustling it on the qt-retail.

I'm all for modest taxes - the way it is now, sometimes it's just ridiculous. And I'm not a smoker.

(Though I bet it can be modeled with a mathematical function. Taxes DO reduce consumption. At a certain point they become counter-productive due to the increase of illegal sales. I wonder if 'they' do that - derive taxes rationally.)

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
There is a thriving underground economy in buying tobacco on Indian reservations and hustling it on the qt-retail.

Oh you bet!

Laughing Buck (not his real name, native or otherwise) is all too happy to help the white man smoke himself right into a coffin, and screw his government out of the taxes besides!

You'd almost think he was holding a grudge about something.

-F

There always has to be a price.

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