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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

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Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Sig

( hate to ask , but wth ... )

If we didn't act, do you think nothing would happen? Would the void that filled the space we don't occupy be filled up w/ peaceful, caring, and freedom loving influences ?

Looking at how other nations run things, I'd rather we influence the issue than others.

Taking us out of the equation doesn't always ensure the shiny happy you're trying to portray.

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So don't bitch when the issue turns around to exert its influence on you

what goes around, comes around

you might have heard the cliche

birds coming home to roost and all that

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

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Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
Sig

( hate to ask , but wth ... )

If we didn't act, do you think nothing would happen? Would the void that filled the space we don't occupy be filled up w/ peaceful, caring, and freedom loving influences ?

Looking at how other nations run things, I'd rather we influence the issue than others.

Taking us out of the equation doesn't always ensure the shiny happy you're trying to portray.

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So don't bitch when the issue turns around to exert its influence on you

what goes around, comes around

you might have heard the cliche

birds coming home to roost and all that

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You completely ignored what I posted. Figures.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Originally posted by Niki2:
As I told Gino elsewhere, most people here agree with him about America. But violence is not the answer anywhere.

I agree with most everything said, except for the call to violence, but I also think a lot of good is ignored here out of, who knows, maybe guilt? America's done a lot of bad, but also a lot of good, and I agree that, if we were taken out of the equation, nobody can say how many would have died, been persecuted, raped, etc.

Not excusing America for its faults, just saying we're one nation out of many, and nobody's perfect. Thank you, KPO, for the perspective. Beyond that, I won't get into this; I know this is an anti-authoritarian-figure bunch--maybe it goes back to Firefly, I dunno. But I do know that there are many who disagree--and I don't mean just the "America, great nation" idjits who can see no wrong.

I'm a middle-of-the-roader on this one; I hate what we've done, but I don't see us as the Evil Empire. All empires are evil, we're just one of many and because of technology and it being a global village, our empire has had more reach. Another will no doubt come along, maybe in our lifetime, for people to hate equally.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

What, that throwing your influence around is okay, but when other folk try to influence you the same frigging way you call foul

It is something like punching a bully in the mouth

ask Frem, maybe he'll explain it to you

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

What, that throwing your influence around is okay, but when other folk try to influence you the same frigging way you call foul

It is something like punching a bully in the mouth

ask Frem, maybe he'll explain it to you

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We're not the bully. That's what you're not getting. If WE didn't " influence " the world, someone else would.

Would you prefer Communist China ? Or maybe state terrorism leading Iran ? Or any number of little thug dictators, from Hugo to Castro, running the show.

We're one of the last true beacons of hope for the world. Even with our mistakes and screw ups. Far better us adding our influence than others. But you seem to think, naively as possible, that if we left well enough alone, then there'd be no troubles, anywhere, what so ever.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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We're not the bully.

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That's what you're not getting. If WE didn't " influence " the world, someone else would.

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Would you prefer Communist China ? Or maybe state terrorism leading Iran ? Or any number of little thug dictators, from Hugo to Castro, running the show.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I wonder if anyones opinion would change, if they knew some of the folks who did die as "collateral damage", from american bombs.

I did, you see - each of those numbers, those were PEOPLE, folks with hopes and dreams, lives beyond the scope of those dry numbers, human beings who were as flawed and yet proud, as any one of us, wiped from existence in an instant, all that they were, all that they believed, all the good and ill they might have done, whatever future potential they had, and gone, just that quick.

One of those people, was a RAWA translator, one of the few who spoke pretty good english, and something of a friend, who did a beautiful pencil sketch for me when words failed her at how much she valued even *acknowledgement* of their plight by an american, a lady I knew little about, but honored for her devotion to a seemingly hopeless cause in the same general direction as mine.

And then.. gone.

Those are PEOPLE, curse your eyes, and I want you to acknowledge it.

-Frem

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We're not the bully

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Castro and Chavez have done far more for their people than "our" dictators have.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Castro and Chavez have done far more for their people than "our" dictators have.

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If by having " done far more for their people " you mean silencing, killing and oppressing them, then yes, we agree.



Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

What, that throwing your influence around is okay, but when other folk try to influence you the same frigging way you call foul

It is something like punching a bully in the mouth

ask Frem, maybe he'll explain it to you

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We're not the bully. That's what you're not getting. If WE didn't " influence " the world, someone else would.

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That doesn't make us "not the bully". Pointing out that if we didn't bully other people, someone else would, is not the same as your claiming that we're no bully.

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Would you prefer Communist China ? Or maybe state terrorism leading Iran ? Or any number of little thug dictators, from Hugo to Castro, running the show.

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Would we get REAL healthcare reform then?

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We're one of the last true beacons of hope for the world. Even with our mistakes and screw ups. Far better us adding our influence than others. But you seem to think, naively as possible, that if we left well enough alone, then there'd be no troubles, anywhere, what so ever.

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And you seem to think, naively as possible, that everything we do is for the best, that we're always for "freedom", despite mountains of evidence laid at your feet. The U.S. is ALWAYS out only for what's best for the U.S.; we don't give a fuck about the rest of the world, except as it impacts our business interests.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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If by having " done far more for their people " you mean silencing, killing and oppressing them, then yes, we agree.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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If by having " done far more for their people " you mean silencing, killing and oppressing them, then yes, we agree.

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You poor, deluded, ignoramus. If you'd pull your head out of your ass once in a while you'd know that WE taught torture techniques to the worst dictators in the world, that WE set up Pinochet and Saddam (YEP) and the Shah of Iran and a host of other dictators who far exceeded... in terms of brutality and death.... anything that Castro or Chavez has ever done.

The people worked over with hand drills, high voltage, hungry rats, beatings, hot oil, child rape, suffocation, acids and caustics? All done by "our" dictators. That's on us.

WE set up Savak. "Chief CIA Iran analyst Jesse Leaf in an interview on 6th Jan. 1979 stated that the CIA teaches Nazi torture techniques to SAVAK". Torture methods: electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles, and the extraction of teeth and nails
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK

The tens of thousand of desparacidos (disappeareds) in Argentina, Colombia, Honduras, etc"? That's on us.

The hundred thousand East Timorese gunned down, beaten, and tortured? On us.

Jeez, Rappy, why the FUCK do you think that people really, REALLY hate us? It's not because we're so nice!

Yanno, if you really think that we SHOULD be influencing the world, the least you can do is accept responsibility for the outcome, you moronic dickwad.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
me Frem ?

hell I totally agree on that point

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
me Frem ?

hell I totally agree on that point

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All of us, Gino, all of us.

It's all too easy to get caught up in discussion of the larger scale and somehow forget that each and every one of those numbers was a human being.

But I want folk to know it, to acknowledge it, and realize, really realize, the true depths of horror within that knowledge.

-F

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

I think you make interesting and valuable points.

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Would Iran want nukes ( if they do, and I would ) if they were not being threatened daily, and already had a neighbor attacked on maybes and what ifs ?


Perhaps the best way to exert influence out into the world would be to simply say, hey we would love to trade with you... except for this little thing

free choice on everyones part

I like the idea...

I disagree that it was ever the policy of America, but that is a debate for another time...


How would you suggest the US move towards this idea ?

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Originally posted by antimason:
the influence of capitalism alone has done more to improve the living standards of their people then any of the central economic planning the communists could devise.

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Nonetheless, I understand Sig's anger; that wind we have blowing through here is so busy unfurling the flag that it sometimes makes ME want to scream some obscenities.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Wow. And only millions had to die for it.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

Jeez, Rappy, why the FUCK do you think that people really, REALLY hate us? It's not because we're so nice!

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Your fucking socialist utopia awaits!

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Your fucking socialist utopia awaits!

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Ya PROMISE????



The laughing Chrisisall

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Actually, it is because we're so nice. Tyrannical Gov'ts lie to their citizens about our way of life, and who we are, so that the locals won't get their own uppity ideas of 'freedom'. Keep the masses stupid, keep them busy and keep them under control. Worked for the Soviet Union for nearly 70 years.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

YOU might be blinded by bullshit, Rappy, but the rest of the world is not.

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You forget that after the US defeated Iraq it was LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE to maintain peace and order in the country. Any deaths that occured are the US's fault, both in fact and by law.

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The level of voluntary ignorance on your part knows no bounds.

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The thing is the U.S has a startlingly good record

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Gino, you missed this one:






"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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The thing is the U.S has a startlingly good record

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You're shitting us, right? I just posted about 100 of our "interventions" which ended in abysmal failure, and you point to three of four exceptions and call it "startling good"?

Er... the only thing startling is your assessment!

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Originally posted by antimason:
personally, i think the US is/ and will be, the most benevolent empire the world will ever see. as much as i criticize America for its intervention, IMO human nature would have compelled any other "world-power" in the same way. the world is frankly lucky that it was us on top(although its not luck- its a consequence of good policy). we are truly blessed as Americans, to have recieved the knowledge and undestanding that underpinned US law, and enabled us access to such incredible wealth. just imagine if the world super-power had been the Nazis, Stalin or Mao!? we might not even be having this discussion

and yet, inspite of all that, we still strive to achieve a balance that does not neccessitate our constant intervention. that is why we are special.. and its the libertairan way, supported by the bill of rights/constitution. in those most simple terms, we are not permitted to do anything near the scale and reach that we have been; both foreign and domesticly. so in that respect, i think we should bid adieu, and leave popular society, and the world, to its misery. IMO thats the best medicine. a consequence of that, i believe would be encouragement towards self reliance, and the accompanied spiritual growth that neccessitates survival. that can only happen by minimizing the role of government intervention. like the old saying goes, 'give a man a fish, feed him for a day. but teach a man to fish, and feed him for a lifetime'. in that same tradition, its time we finally leave the world to its own divices, and let God handle the rest.

people will call me cruel, its just my opinion

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I specified countries that have been occupied - not just have seen 'interventions'. If you don't truncate my quote it holds true - and you can maybe understand what the Neocons were thinking. Nobody was satisfied with the sanctions status quo.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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I specified countries that have been occupied - not just have seen 'interventions'. If you don't truncate my quote it holds true - and you can maybe understand what the Neocons were thinking. Nobody was satisfied with the sanctions status quo.

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So why did Iraq turn into such a clusterf*ck, compared to Germany and Japan?

MAYBE because in Germany we specifically sought to rebuild to protect ourselves from an economically-driven repeat of the WWI reparations, but in IRAQ Richard Bremmer sought to spread Iraq's legs for corporate rape and make Iraq pay for it's own invasion? (Like what was done to Germany post WWI.)

The reason why I point to our "interventions" as opposed to our "occupations" is to repeat the point that our motivations for going into a country drive the outcome. It doesn't matter whether it's a full-scale invasion and occupation, a "simple" invasion, an intelligence-directed overthrow, or covert and protracted harassment... if we're going into a nation for profits that nation will be screwed over from the get-go.... AND THAT'S OUR USUAL MO.

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