Connecticut refuses to fly US flag over state capitol by piratenews

Out in the west, we have a pretty healthy respect for rattlesnakes. Far from crawling down a hole, those babies really don't take crap from anyone. If one's in your way, it's a lot smarter to try to go around. But you have to keep an eye out, if the rattlesnake moves, it might accidentally go CLOSER to you, in striking distance, or if there's one rattlesnake, it's not unlikely there may be more in the area.

I can tell you stories, good, hilarious stories. Luckily the ones I know end well, but being bitten by a rattler is serious business at the time. And a good opportunity for teasing later, usually the person who got bitten was doing something incredibly stupid.

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Friday, April 9, 2010 9:25 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

My half-brother was bitten when, as a teenager, he was doing yard duty. We rushed him to hospital, but it sure was scary.

We lived in the first housing development built in the hills of San Mateo (which is now COVERED with housing...blech!). As a result, the building encroached on the snakes' habitat, and construction workers were continually encountering them. Amusingly, then called my mom to come deal with them--big strapping men, hah!--'cuz she had no trouble killing them (it's not hard, and I regret it now, being a NON-VENEMOUS snake afficionado...wouldn't have a venemous one to save my life!).

I walked right over one in the gutter as a child, playing dress-up. I learned to respect them, but not fear them...however, we all did smile and encourage the King Snakes in the area.

Hiking on the Mountain, I've run across several. They're perfectly willing to leave you alone unless you approach too close or threaten them. One hike, when we used to hike with our cats, I heard the familiar rattle and looked to see one of the cats investigating a rattler. Scooped her and the other cat up and we high-tailed it out of there.

Another time I ran across a fisherman at one of the dams and a dead rattler nearby. He said our local yellowjackets (meat eaters) eat them, and if you got stung by one, it would make you sick. Never knew that!

Last time, Jim almost stepped over one basking in the sun on the trail. He was in no danger, as when basking they are virtually somnolent.

But I DO give them wide berth, as should anyone; they're just a natural part of the environment. They DEFINITELY don't go crawling down holes; they stand their ground and Byte is absolutely right...they don't take shit from anyTHING or anyone. Except king snakes, of course!

Beyond that, and ignoring PN's usual assininity, especially as his title is a total lie, I do think it's a stupid flag, too...the attempted message falls short because nobody DELIBERATELY steps on a poisonous snake, and they're easy to dispatch...they truly can't defend themselves against humans (or king snakes!), so it makes no sense. The only way to get bitten by stepping on one is by accident, which is obviously not what they were trying to say.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, April 9, 2010 9:50 AM

The Gadsden flag is ok, but I've always had just a teensy issue over it cause the related "Join or Die" cartoon Franklin penned always came across to me in a threatening manner - which, given my viewpoint on "rule of the gun" in the first place, doesn't give me happy thoughts.

My banner is the black banner of Anarchism, with a white ring on it to signify the all inclusive Unitarian Universalism practiced by me and mine.
(I don't care for the chalice and lamp icons)

For some reason, cause of my ability to talk folks into stuff, and the white ring, on top of previous events now blown outta proportion, the local law and politicians have begun to refer to me as Saruman, to my amusement, and mild ire.
(it's DYNAMO, dammit!)

-Frem

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Friday, April 9, 2010 12:12 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, April 9, 2010 1:49 PM

The best rattlesnake story I've ever heard happened up in the Raft River Mountains, almost as far north in Utah as you can go. The Raft Rivers are also one of the few ranges in Utah that run east to west, meaning it's not part of the Basin and Range system and marks the furthest north boundary of the Great basin region. Fascinating place, the product of Cretaceous age orogeny event, the same that produced the Rockies over in Colorado. Basically, there was such a lot of crustal thickening that some mountains got too steep, and their tops slip RIGHT OFF on some impressive normal detachment faults.

What you expose underneath, when the top slides off, is a metamorphic core complex of some truly ANCIENT rocks. When I was out there with my survey group, we found some Trondhjemite from an old protocontinental suture that had been exposed. You only find trondhjemite in stuff that's more than 2.5 billion years old.

It was May, and unusually warm, and there were a lot of flowering plants out. A geology student was doing some surveying out there on his own for his masters, and he developed hayfever so bad that he could barely see. Happened to step down from from an outcrop and startled the rattlesnake that was resting underneath it, tagged him.

He was at the ridgeline above Cove canyon, the car was parked at the confluence between the creeks flowing out of Little Rocky Canyon and Quaking Aspen Canyon, a good mile and a half away and about 2,000 feet lower. Even more serious problem: this is far north in Box Elder County. The nearest hospital is about 60 miles away.

So the guy is almost blind, he's feeling sick from the venom, and he has to hike down to the car, which takes almost an hour, and then he had to drive himself out to highway 30 and get himself to a hospital, still almost blind from hayfever, which took another hour.

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Friday, April 9, 2010 5:17 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I've had too many run-ins with Western Diamondbacks to count. Only ever killed one, and that was to cook it up and eat it. They're pretty tasty, but I never felt the urge to kill another snake. Only time I was ever SCARED by a rattler was when I was working with crop-dusters, and we were doing some night work. Instead of a flag on a pole to mark the path for the dusters, we had the flashing yellow construction-zone lights on the ends of our poles - it was a 20' pole. You'd wait for the duster to go over, spraying you with 2,4,5-T defolient, then you'd drop the pole and mark of 40 feet (the width of one pass of the duster, a Piper Pawnee), and put up the pole again. This was 1978; I was 15, and had never heard of Agent Orange.

So here I am, in the middle of the middle of nowhere, pitch black, with a flashing yellow light 20 feet out in front of me, walking behind it and trying not to step in cactus. You always stepped easy, because there was always something underfoot - centipedes, tarantulas, scorpions, rattlers, etc. - and I step down, and BBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ - there it goes. When a rattler really gets worked up, it's not so much a rattle as a loud buzz. And this one was pissed.

Here's the thing about rattlesnakes - they don't want to have to bite you. They REALLY don't want to bite you. It's a matter of life and death to them. You're big. To them, you're HUGE. You aren't food, you're danger, and thus a waste of venom, which they have a limited supply of, and need it to survive. They'd vastly prefer to NOT bite you, unless cornered, and really not even then. Hence the rattle - it's not to attract prey, it's to warn off danger.

So here's me, in the ass end of nowhere, on the raggedy edge, with a rattler buzzing away, and it's so loud, so goddam close, that I can't even tell where it's coming from. It SURROUNDS me. I freeze. Which way to go? Do I step back? Forward? I can't see ANYTHING, except in flashes of yellow, twenty feet away from me.

After what felt like an eternity of me standing there frozen, but was probably more like three or four seconds, I took a deep breath and jumped as high and far as I could, backwards, figuring the snake wasn't that way, or would have made noise before it did. I guessed right - the noise dropped off immediately, down to a low shake, like a marimba, as the snake realized the threat was dissipating. So I took SEVERAL steps way around the area I'd just been, and guessed my way back to where I needed to be. And the job went on like nothing ever happened...

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 7:19 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Gawd, Byte...how awful! I'd have been scared out of my wits, which of course would make things worse at it would up my heart rate and spread the poison faster. I'm glad he made it, hope he didn't suffer too much, as their bites can make one hell of a mess!

Mike, thank you, all you said about them not wanting to bite is right on, and I didn't think to mention it. He's absolutely right; rattlers don't WANT to bite (tho' there are some poisonous snakes who DO and who will chase you if they get pissed, like the King Brown--thank gawd we have none of THOSE).

Also glad you have no further desire to kill one; snakes are truly wonderful, not as stupid as people think (tho' constrictors, the only kind I had/have, are pretty slow thinkers!), and actually have personalities, believe it or not. I had an anaconda who was absolutely in love with my boyfriend; if handled by him, would coil around him like it was a hug, but had virtually no reaction to me.

They're critters too, just like all of us. Tickled this devolved from the original subject into snake stories; MUCH better use of our time and much more pleasant!

The rattler's bite, by the way, is seldom fatal unless it hits a vein or something. Ugly, horribly painful and can cause permanent damage to nerves, etc., but not necessarily deadly. Not that I want to test that theory!!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, April 10, 2010 7:32 AM

"...But several lawmakers complained that the flag was a political symbol..."

That right there pretty much says everything about politicians...

MORE snake stories , soon...

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 9:02 AM

Meanwhile , this is why I KILL venomous snakes on my properties :

http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/rattlesnakepics.htm

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 9:05 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Didn't have to look past the first photo. Like I said, tho' not usually fatal, their bite can make one HELL of a mess!

Some are worse than others, and usually Western Diamondbacks don't do that kind of damage. But you guys in the South, you've got some doozies down there, and so many different species (none of which, I believe, give a warning?), I don't blame you for how you feel about them. I'm glad we only have one, easily recognizable by sight and hearing, species around here!

By the way, anyone know what species of snake that flag depicts? It's got diamonds on it, but it can't be a Diamondback, the South has so many much more deadly ones, and I don't think Diamondbacks even exist down there, do they? I know the EASTERN Diamondback, but it's mostly in the Northeast, isn't it? I'm not well versed in where different species reside, so if anyone can enlighten me...?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 9:17 AM

Eastern Diamondbacks are generally in the southeast U.S. - Florida, Georgia, and thereabouts. The one on that flag is more probably a Timber Rattlesnake, the species more common in the northeast and New England areas.

I don't kill venomous snakes on my property; I catch 'em and relocate 'em to less-inhabited areas.

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 9:23 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, Mike, that's what we do around here. But I can't blame people who live in areas highly populated by venemous snakes for killing them...I don't think it changes the natural balance when snakes come into urban areas, so I can't complain about that. And tho' they have as much right to live as any critter, we have the right to self-preservation too I guess.

And ah, if the Eastern Diamondback is common in the Southeast and so forth, it would make sense. But why the Timber, if it's more common in the Northeast?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 9:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Eastern Diamondbacks are generally in the southeast U.S. - Florida, Georgia, and thereabouts. The one on that flag is more probably a Timber Rattlesnake, the species more common in the northeast and New England areas.

I don't kill venomous snakes on my property; I catch 'em and relocate 'em to less-inhabited areas.

I've seen various attributions as to the species depicted , but there is naturally some disagreement on this point due to it being a poor likeness...

My properties ARE less-inhabited areas...

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 9:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
...Yeah, Mike, that's what we do around here. But I can't blame people who live in areas highly populated by venemous snakes for killing them...I don't think it changes the natural balance when snakes come into urban areas, so I can't complain about that. And tho' they have as much right to live as any critter, we have the right to self-preservation too I guess.

And ah, if the Eastern Diamondback is common in the Southeast and so forth, it would make sense. But why the Timber, if it's more common in the Northeast?

Timber rattler is a kind of generic term , which has much to do with habitat...Snakes tend to take on the coloration of the areas in which they live...

I've seen both 'green' and 'brown' Timber Rattlers , and found them on both coasts of the country...A lot of snake names are local , and more hybridization is possible than is generally acknowledged or admitted , but some of the hybrids may be unable to reproduce , and they therefore die out without establishing an indigenous population...

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 9:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Yeah, Mike, that's what we do around here. But I can't blame people who live in areas highly populated by venemous snakes for killing them...I don't think it changes the natural balance when snakes come into urban areas, so I can't complain about that. And tho' they have as much right to live as any critter, we have the right to self-preservation too I guess.

And ah, if the Eastern Diamondback is common in the Southeast and so forth, it would make sense. But why the Timber, if it's more common in the Northeast?

Well, the Gadsden flag seems to have its origins as far back as Franklin's "Join, or Die" political cartoon, and was designed for the early navy/marines out of Philadelphia, so I'm hazarding a guess that it was more likely to be a Timber Rattler than an Eastern Diamondback, since the Timber would be more common in that area, while the Eastern Diamondback isn't reported as often that far north. However, Gadsden DID represent South Carolina, so it's possible that it could be the Eastern Daimondback, too.

And yeah, if someone wants to kill venomous snakes on their property, it's their call. I have more issues with mice than with snakes, so I prefer to let the snakes stay and help clear out the mice! Rattlers I have no issue with; for all their reputation, they're actually pretty timid. Water Moccasins, on the other hand, I *will* kill, because they're just downright mean, in my experience.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
...You'd wait for the duster to go over, spraying you with 2,4,5-T defolient, then you'd drop the pole and mark of 40 feet (the width of one pass of the duster, a Piper Pawnee), and put up the pole again. This was 1978; I was 15, and had never heard of Agent Orange.

...You always stepped easy, because there was always something underfoot - centipedes, tarantulas, scorpions, rattlers, etc. - and I step down, and BBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ - there it goes. When a rattler really gets worked up, it's not so much a rattle as a loud buzz. And this one was pissed.

Here's the thing about rattlesnakes - they don't want to have to bite you. They REALLY don't want to bite you. It's a matter of life and death to them. You're big. To them, you're HUGE. You aren't food, you're danger, and thus a waste of venom, which they have a limited supply of, and need it to survive. They'd vastly prefer to NOT bite you, unless cornered, and really not even then. Hence the rattle - it's not to attract prey, it's to warn off danger.

So here's me, in the ass end of nowhere, on the raggedy edge, with a rattler buzzing away, and it's so loud, so goddam close, that I can't even tell where it's coming from. It SURROUNDS me. I freeze. Which way to go? Do I step back? Forward?

The first Eastern Diamondback that I killed was in mid-July last year ; was having dinner and saw him cruise by out front...I finished dinner , but decided to go out and have a look around , in hope of verifying that he'd left the area...

I took a short walk around , and didn't see him in my little outing , but decided to keep my eyes peeled because in the leaf litter in these woods , these snakes are just about supernaturally invisible , even when you KNOW where they are , and are looking right at them...

To keep the fire danger down , I have to rake up some of the accumulated leaves pretty much constantly , year-round...

I had left one of the bags of leaves to the side of the porch , and when I approached the doorway again , I saw the snake curling up right there by the door...It was a relaxed coil , like getting settled for the evening...Still , I didn't like the notion of him making himself too comfortable where I'd be having to come and go , so I grabbed the long-handle cast-steel rake and went to pin him down behind his head...He sensed the rake coming , but didn't know the direction from where the threat was nearing , and he struck out in the opposite direction at the black leaf bag , being it was probably the warmest item close by...I caught him with the rake anyway , but it left him a bit too free to maneuver , even though one of the tines had penetrated his body about 4-5 inches behind his head...On the second hack with the rake , I caught him close behind the head , which was good , because he was both injured AND seriously pissed . I pinned him hard , and then brought down the blade of a shovel , severing his head...They take quite a while to die , even in that condition...I dug a deep hole with the shovel , and once rigor was beginning to set in , dropped him in it...

The second one I killed at the end of October ; we'd had some unseasonably cool weather by then , and again I was raking some pathways and clearing piles of leaves...In some places the stuff becomes so deep that it's difficult to rake it at all , and you just move a leafpile out of the pathway , and leave a cleared area in which to walk...I turned around to survey all my work , and at the same time happened to take one step BACK...That was a mistake .

The heel of my shoe contacted the edge of a leaf pile that I'd just shifted , and I heard a sudden movement , fast as lightning , which startled me ; I turned my head , and out of the corner of my eye , saw the snake stetched out full length , trying to escape. Apparently he had decided to brumate right in that very pile of leaves , because he emerged right out of it when I stepped ON HIS TAIL !

Fortunately for me , his first instinct was ESCAPE , and when he made his move , I also made mine...I leapt backward , and he slipped away a few feet toward a fallen log , and took up the strike posture...Lucky that I already had the rake ! He met the same fate as the other one , but I hit him much harder to kill/disable him on first strike , to enable me an opportunity to retrieve the shovel...I just left him pinned hard to the ground , ran and got the shovel , and went through the same routine...

We have relatively mild winters as a rule , but in talking with a herpetologist at our local aquarium , I found that he had collected the eastern diamondback as late as December 30th , and as EARLY as January 1st...

Both of these snakes were younglings , with no buttons as of yet , and only 27-30 inches long...The young ones are the most dangerous , because they can't rattle and don't know how to regulate their venom ; so if bitten , you end up getting all of it...

One of my cats was killed by a copperhead , and I also helped dispatch the mother of all water mocassins over at my parents' place , after a hurricane...

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Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:28 AM

The snake on the Gadsden is a Crotalus Horridus, aka Eastern Timber Rattler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_horridus

You DO NOT fuck with it, once it starts talkin smack at you, you WILL get bit, and it's really, really unpleasant.

I'll generally leave a snake be, so long as he leaves me alone - up here in MI, I ain't never even seen one outside of a pet shop, but back in MD we had three nasty ones (oddly enough, DNR lists only two), the aforementioned Timber Rattler, and the Copperhead, which has a nasty tendancy to play dead right up to the moment you accidently step on it, and then sink it's fangs into your shin, bastards, and the water Moccasin.

I had Copperhead take a shot at me from the shelf of a shed once, but I was way younger and much faster, I ducked and tried to grab him behind the head, but they're damned fast and all I got was his tail - if I let go, he might still bite me and if I didn't he SURE would bite me, so not having time to think about it I cracked him like a whip and did for him first.

Imma live and let live kinda guy, but I didn't see a good option there and didn't have time to think of one.

-Frem

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Monday, April 12, 2010 6:02 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I didn't read all the thread about killing the snakes...can't take killing of animals. Around here, they're only up on The Mountain, tho' there is the added danger up at the Lakes in Summer, as the weather drives them down for water. That's where we've seen all the ones we've encountered. Otherwise, there's no danger from them in inhabited area, and rangers won't even relocate them.

Copperheads and especially Water Moccasins...BAD NEWS!!! I don't blame anyone for dispatching them if they can't relocate them far away VERY safely!

Baby rattlers are considered more dangerous, but they're not, in a way. The venom of a baby rattlesnake is the same as a full grown rattlesnake. The reason it seems more "toxic" is because they can't control the amount of venom they pump out, the way an adult snake can.

Actually all rattlesnakes have hemotoxin and neurotoxin included in their venim. Baby rattlesnakes, however, contains mostly neurotixin, and little hemotin. It's the neurotoxin that can be fatal. Hemotoxin is used to break down tissue, and aids in the digestive process.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, April 12, 2010 7:31 AM

Timber rattler , most often known as a 'canebrake rattlesnake' around here...Notice the effectiveness of the camouflage...
The Eastern Diamondbacks are even better at blending in .

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Monday, April 12, 2010 7:47 AM

Weird - Copperheads around here are really, really docile. I leave 'em be, and they go on their merry. Had a Coral Snake in my warehouse a couple years ago, and I wouldn't even hassle him. They're notoriously timid, and have a tendency to bite themselves when confronted - and they aren't immune to their own venom! Call it ritual suicide.

So I didn't do a thing about the Coral Snake in the warehouse, except be a little more careful where I was putting my hands. And you have to really, REALLY try to get bit by a coral; their fangs are tiny, and are so far back in their mouths that they're almost in their throats. As such, they have to get in somewhere like between your fingers or toes, and really chew to work the venom in. So I never pay coral snakes any mind at all, lest they off themselves in a fit of pique.

First snake I ever remember encountering was when I was about 3 or 4. We were living in Taiwan, and I ran into a large cobra in our back yard. I remember it rearing up, spreading its hood, and looking me in the eye. Next thing I knew, my dad came running out of the house in his tighty-whiteys with a .45 in his hand and shaving cream all over his face, blasting away. I never knew I was in any danger; I just thought it was a cool-looking new thing to play with! :)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, April 12, 2010 8:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
...I never knew I was in any danger; I just thought it was a cool-looking new thing to play with! :)

The snake , or the .45 ?

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Monday, April 12, 2010 8:29 AM

There's been a couple times I've done some dumb stuff around snakes. I don't normally see them around town, or even in my stomping grounds wilderness. I only find them WAY out in the middle of nowhere.

I'm a scientist with some interest in zoology, so when I see one, my first instinct is to be a moron and get a couple of sticks to handle them, stop them from getting away. Not snakes that are easily recognizable, like rattlesnakes, but indefinite brown little things. When I got a better look at some of them, they had the viper triangle head, so, I'm officially a Darwin Award just waiting to happen.

I let them go afterward, though. They usually just want to get the hell away from the crazy woman, and it's empty no-man's land anyway. I'm just a visitor in their house.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 9:27 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I like your thinking, Byte. But not your attitude. I, too, love to "hassle" things by getting closer and/or picking them up, and luckily we have nothing poisonous except the rattlers, so I'm safe.

Didn't know copperheads and coral snakes were docile, that's interesting. The most aggressive type of snakes are the Colubridae family. They are nonpoisonous "live eaters"--they grab their prey and either eat them live or, in some cases, constrict. They have to be fast and aggressive to catch their prey. These include grater snakes, black snakes, racers, king snakes and rat snakes. I can't find anything that gives a scientific name to the family of what we call "live eaters", so I assume they're lumped in with other things. Herpetological fanciers, tho', know the difference!

There are four kinds of poisonous snakes. Pit vipers (Crotalidae) include copperhead, rattlesnake and water moccasin. Water Moccasin-

Their fangs lie back against the roof of their mouths until they strike. They're the ones with little "pits" to find warm prey on their faces.

Elapids are classified by their smaller, fixed fangs. Coral snakes are among them, and from what I know, few bites are recorded by them...which may be because, as you say, they're timid. Coral-

Colubrids like the mangrove and vine snakes have rear-mounted, grooved fangs. They are are only mildly venomous snakes, but the African twig snake and the boomslang are really deadly. Colubrids have to bite you and then kind of "chew" forward to inject their venom. Mangrove-

Hydrophiidae, sea snakes, are the fourth kind. Their venom is highly neurotoxic, but they're usual docile so their bites are rare. Krait-

Then there's my favorite family, the Boids. They're the only kind I would have. This includes all boa constrictors, pythons and anacondas.

The boa constrictor is one of the few species who has the same common and scientific name. I prefer their "dog" faces to the longer, flatter head of pythons. Their markings are really beautiful when young, but as they age their markings fade. My first snake was a boa...

but later in life I saved up to get a Guyanan Boa (Boa Constrictor Constrictor), because they're gorgeous and their markings don't fade. My Guyanan had a pinkish cast, and she was gorgeous.

The python family has seven species, among them the royal (or ball) python, reticulated python and burmese python. I have a ball, they’re small, only get to three feet or so, and fat...

I always wanted an Emerald Tree Boa, but they’re horribly expensive, aggressive for a constrictor and hard to keep. They hang like a bunch of green bananas:

I settled for a Green Tree Python, which is very similar. They have a bluer cast, and like the Emerald, start out yellow or red before changing to green:

The reason I stuck with constrictors are they’re the most mellow, handleable snakes...obviously poisonous was out for me, and the live-eaters are more fast and aggressive. But constrictors only have to grab, wind around and hang on, so they're usually pretty mellow. Wouldn't have a retic, however, gorgeous as they are, because they get downright MEAN when older.

So do the Burmese...both are the two largest kinds of pythons, and both have been known to kill humans:

Had a half-interest in an anaconda once; I kept her until she got eight feet or so, then the other owner took over (I didn't have a big enough terrarium):

There's also the yellow anaconda:

The anaconda is the "largest" snake in the world, the biggest being 28 feet with a 44-inch girth, weighing about 500 pounds. They can grow as big around as a full-grown man! But pythons grow the longest, retics can reach 32 feet, but are much slimmer than anacondas.

There’s your snake education for the day

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, April 12, 2010 9:45 AM

If you're mellow, they get mellow, that's what I've found.

EDIT: Just to clarify, because the sticks thing might have confused people, I don't hit the snakes with the sticks. I put one down in the path of the snake, then the other, kind of a hand-over-hand / stick-over-stick thing so they don't feel trapped but they aren't really getting away.

Yeah... I learned my snake handling skills from watching Steve Irwin a few too many times, so you just know I'm gonna get myself dead someday. ^_^'

Least I don't jump on them, though.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 10:14 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I understood, and it's the perfect way to handle snakes. Non-poisonous ones, hand-over-hand (unless you're you...or Steve Irwin

). That's how I always handled mine; as long as the snake thinks he's going SOMEWHERE, he's no problem to handle (even if he's not getting anywhere!). It's when you try to hang onto them and keep them perfectly still that they freak out. Plus you simply can't...the way snakes move, they can go on moving forward no matter how tightly you hold them!

Constrictors, you do that for only a couple of minutes and most of the time they just relax and coil around you and sit still, enjoying the heat from your bod. Lotsa fun running errands with a boa wrapped around your neck...wakes people up!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, April 12, 2010 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
...I never knew I was in any danger; I just thought it was a cool-looking new thing to play with! :)

The snake , or the .45 ?

Take your pick!

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Monday, April 12, 2010 12:47 PM

Niki, you should look into a rat snake, a corn snake, or a king snake. I've had some of each, and they were VERY docile. They were all wild-caught, too, and at least a couple years old when caught, but still settled right down and were very well behaved.

My older brother, being considerably more crazy than I, even kept a pair of Western Diamondback rattlesnakes for a time - he'd take them out of their terrarium and play with 'em, too - put 'em around his neck, let them crawl all over. Even I thought that was a bit nuts. He let them go when they started showing some signs of aggression (not enough aggression to actually BITE him, but they were getting kinda hinky, coiling up and rattling when he took the cover off the terrarium, getting ready to strike. He decided that was enough of that!)

By the way, I wouldn't say this discussion has "devolved" - I'd say snakes are a much more noble topic for discussion than tea partiers. :)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, April 12, 2010 2:06 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Australian snakes make Yankee ones look friendly.

Australian snakes Relative Toxicity
Inland taipan Oxyuranus microlepidotus 50.0
Common brown snake Pseudonaja textilis 12.5
Taipan Oxyuranus scutellatus 7.8
Reevesby Is. tiger snake Notechis ater niger 5.1
Common tiger snake Notechis scutatus 4.2
Western tiger snake Notechis ater occidentalis 4.0
Beaked sea snake Enhydrina schistosa 2.9
Chappell Is. tiger snake Notechis ater serventyi 1.8
Common death adder Acanthophis antarcticus 1.5
Western brown snake Pseudonaja nuchalis 1.5
Copperhead Austrelaps superbus 1.0
Dugite Pseudonaja affinis 0.9
Stephens banded snake Hoplocephalus stephensi 0.4
Rough scaled snake Tropidechis carinatus 0.5
Spotted black snake Pseudechis guttatus 0.3
King brown snake Pseudechis australis 0.3
Colletts snake Pseudechis colletti 0.2
Red bellied black snake Pseudechis porphyriacus 0.2
Small-eyed snake Cryptophis nigrescens 0.2
Whip snake Demansia olivacea < 0.1

Non-Australian Snakes Relative Toxicity
Indian cobra Naja naja 1.0
Papuan black snake Pseudechis papuanus 0.4
King cobra Ophiophagus hannah 0.3
Eastern diamond-back rattlesnake Crotalus adamanteus << 0.1
Brazillian viper (Barba amarilla) Bothrops atrox << 0.1

The scale is based on level of toxicity comapred to the Indian cobra being the value of 1.0.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 2:15 PM

Magons, thanks for that. I have to ask, and please understand if it seems doltish:

Is the Taipan for real? I've heard and read mythical stories of them, but have never found much in the way of hard, true info on the beasts. From what I've read, though, they would be quite a formidable foe indeed, and not one to trifle with.

Stories I've heard make them seem almost like Reavers (not in details, but in their mythic bad-assedness). Fast, wily, big, HORRIFICALLY venomous, VERY aggressive, and tend to strike for the face whenever possible. Or so I'd heard.

Might be why so little was written about them back when I was reading up on this stuff (70s, 80s) - maybe anyone who found out about them didn't often live to tell the tale!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, April 12, 2010 2:46 PM

Mikey, it's Australia, where anything not immediately trying to kill you, is off plotting to do so, so it kinda comes with the territory...
*smirk*
Yes, ok, that's an exaggeration, but not very MUCH of one, I'm afraid.

And Byte - having known many a tomboyish girl with the same fascination, I hafta say yer doin it all wrong, ya get a crooked stick with a fork in it, trim it down and pin em behind the head, then pick them up with your thumb directly on the back of the skull, then turn it around and make goofy faces at it.
(ok, seriously, DO NOT try to do it that way, I am kidding!)

Some of the girls at my old elementary school had loads and LOADS of fun with a captured black rat snake when they realized most of the bullyboys were terrified of the thing - revenge was never so sweet, I almost fell off the bench laughing as they chased those jerks clear off the property, giggling the whole time.

-F

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Monday, April 12, 2010 3:01 PM

Yeah, Frem - I know that bit. I was always told that the way you know a snake is venomous in Australia is that you saw a snake at all. It's an exaggeration, but not much of one.

I was curious about the Taipan because from what I remember of the snake books I used to have by Kauffeld and others, the Taipan barely got a mention, if that. If referred to at all, it was usually along the lines of "spoken of with reverence by the aborigines, but not known to Western scientists..." and stuff like that.

So it amazes me that so much has been discovered in the last 30 years or so, and so much is still being discovered today. Speaking of which, Western science just discovered a new species of 6-foot-long monitor lizard in the Philippines. I say they "discovered" it, but that's not accurate; the locals have known about it for generations, but never bothered to tell anyone, because they didn't realize it was anything remarkable... :) It's a little smaller than the Kimodo Dragon, but thought to be related, although it eats bugs and fruit instead of taking down pigs.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, April 12, 2010 3:23 PM

We know, Magon, this is the shame of the American people, because this is precisely why Australians will always be naturally more badass than us.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 3:38 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

http://www.australianfauna.com/t10dangerous.php

Who needs guns, yanks.

True story. A robber used a snake to hold up a service station (gas station?)

Kwicko, I don't know much about the taipan, it's not generally a snake I'd worry about as it lives in a remote region and is shy.

Tiger snakes and brown snakes are very common, so more to worry about when you are walking in the bush, or even if you live on the urban fringe as I do. The tiger snake, allegedly will go for you, but I'm not sure if that is an urban myth (or rural myth?)

There seems to be some controversy about the measurements of venom, but I think I'll be getting some anti venom regardless if I'm bit, so I've never really worried about it.

We have redback spiders in our garden.

We swim where there are sharks and a wander among rock pools may have you chance on the lovely but deadly blue ringed octopus.

The most I've suffered is ant bites, from both a bull ant and a jumping jack which deliver powerfully painful bites. Jumping jacks are aggressive ants, they chase you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_jumper_ant

Fact- you are much more likely to die in a road accident than by being bitten by a venomous greebly.

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Monday, April 12, 2010 3:51 PM

Ah, so people in Australia drive like people in Michigan!

-F

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 6:05 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, yes, Mike, I agree, a MUCH better topic than the bullshit PN likes to spout.

I had two corn snakes, they were sweet, even had eggs. Couldn't save them, I was too new to herpatology and they got too moist despite all my efforts.

Yes, the three species you mentioned are constrictors, ergo docility is to be expected. I don’t think it’s legal to buy king snakes in California; they’re native and protected. In fact, one of the reasons I stopped collecting was when they shut down importation and I found out all the things that had been going on! Those three are all native to America, so yes, they don’t have to be captive bred to be captured and sold as pets. I always loved my boas and pythons because of that docility, used to wear them around shopping and stuff. I was young...

The ONLY time I’ve ever been bitten by any of my snakes is when I fed them. Since I feed “hot and dead” as we call them—frozen and defrosted (couldn’t take feeding them live rats or mice after I’d raised tons of same to save money), they had no body heat. So sometimes the snake would mistake my hand for the “edible”...it was always funny because they SEEMED so embarrassed, and some wouldn’t strike again until the next day. I just fed Sydney a few minutes ago, and blind as she is, she strikes at the heat lamps over her cage, poor baby, so I try to warm up the rats, and now I use tongs! Once she gets close enough to the rat (like touches it with her nose), she strikes FAST!

One of my favorites was a four-foot-long tegu lizard. He lapped eggs with his forked tongue and would crawl into bed from the bottom, then work his way up to my stomach where he’d sleep happily—my body heat of course. He was gorgeous; I had to find homes for all my snakes and lizards when I moved up here, and didn’t intend to get more...then one day I saw this little baby ball, and ended up getting the three I mentioned (was working then and making good money, so I could fulfill my dreams). The little ball is Sydney, the only one I still have. I really loved old-world chameleons, too, and had a couple of them. They were fascinating!

Now all you can get are captive-bred, which is a good thing (not to say black market doesn’t still exist). I only have the ball python left...due to the lack of education of a herpetologist vet I saw when she had "retained spectacles" (when they shed, they also shed the scales over their eyes, and if they don't shed right, the scales stay and when they dry up, constrict over the eyes), she lost both eyes. I was sick at heart, even took her to a "herpetological opthamologist" over in the East Bay (yes, believe it or not, they have exist!), but it was too late. Still sees light, but nothing else. I found a home for the green tree python; he was an incredible woos and getting him to eat was awfully difficult; in fact he spent almost as much time over at the Herpetarium as he did at home, with them trying to get him to eat. The guyanan red tail died last year; I fed her one of the Norwegian rats I had killed, and I think it made her sick. Never got the slightest sign, just woke up one morning and she was dead. Really tore me up...she was almost eight feet by then and still beautiful. I won’t be getting any more; Sydney (the ball) will be my responsibility the rest of her life, and they live LONG, and now I have the rabbits, the huskies, the parakeet I found...any more snakes, I wouldn’t be able to care for properly.

Yeah, Magons, I know you guys Down Under deal with some pretty awful things we Yanks would blanch at...watched enough Steve Irwin to get a GOOD idea! You’ve also got a lot of other poisonous stuff, as you mentioned,, insects and such, I know. I can’t imagine living with that much deadly stuff around, I’m a total woos. I’m grateful as hell for our seldom-seen, only poisonous snake, the rattler. I know the odds are slim, as you said, but that doesn’t change it for me. I love snakes, but not poisonous ones!!!

Isn’t the King Brown terribly aggressive, too? I heard as much on Irwin’s show, and watched him being chased by a BIG one!

Okay, this is for Frem...I may have posted it before, but I thought you’d get a kick out of it. At the time I was into herps, I had maybe ten or twelve of them, plus a couple of lizards. I was living in a communal house, which means parties and people and stuff, and everyone was always bringing friends in to see my snakes. I observed something. Women would come to the door; I’d pull out a snake to show them. They’d squeal and do all the “womanly” things, then come in the room. “Can I touch it?”, then “Can I hold it?” and they just loved the snakes. MEN, on the other hand, would walk right in the room, all macho bravado, but NEVER wanted to touch or hold the snakes, and kept their distance.

I thought it was just an interesting anomaly until I started taking some of the snakes to schools to educate young kids, say 5-7. We’d sit in a circle, I’d bring out a snake and tell them about it and that most snakes weren’t dangerous, etc., etc. They’d all sit there wide-eyed, and when I offered to let them touch her, the girls BOUNDED in and crowded around, eager to hold her, while the guys continued to sit in the circle. Certainly there were exceptions in both cases, of course, but it was an eye-opener for me, added to my earlier experiences.

So much for “macho”!

The only “live eater” I ever had was this six-foot-long, whip-like black snake. She was gorgeous. She was sick as death when I got her from the local herp shop, but I nursed her back to health. Then the owner of the shop said she was a Black Mamba (!) but had her fangs removed when she was smuggled in. Turned out she was a “false black mamba”, totally non-dangerous, thank goodness. She was freaky...I’d be watching TV or something, and see her head peek around the corner. I’d glance away, and when I looked back she was peeking at me from a completely different spot. Talk about FAST! She loved having baths in the tub, and I’d put her in there before she shed. One time we had a new, British, member of the house who went in to take a bath...you can imagine the result. She knew I had snakes, she knew if the bathroom door was closed not to go in, but she was in a hurry, knocked and got no results, so... I felt very badly about it.

Another time one of my boas got out somehow and disappeared for a month or so. Couple was watching TV in the living room and PLOP, he dropped out from behind the TV. The heat, you know. Since they can go months without food, he was fine, but it sure woke them out of their marijuana-induced fog!

Good times. I miss them...both the people and the snakes...sigh...

Glad your brother wasn’t bit, Mike...not that he didn’t deserve to be...and glad he let them go. People can be really weird about snakes, especially over in Asia...I’m sure you’ve heard some of the stories about cobras. We went to a cobra farm in Thailand; they’d tip over the round “homes” (like upside-down teacups) and the snakes would have “balled” to fit exactly the same shape. The took their biggest one out to show us...took four men to hold him, he went on forever!

Monitors are MEAN, especially when they get bigger. Wouldn’t have one. Their bite can be dangerous, tho’...not poisonous, but along the lines of the Komodo Dragons in that their mouths carry tons of dangerous bacteria, etc. And yes, they get damned big, over at the Herpetarium they have several, and they’re ugly as sin, to me.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 8:39 AM

Well, snakes for me are kind of a live n let live, I ain't afraid of em or nothin, but not fascinated either, they're just another reptile, and I have difficultly connecting to those cause they're so different from warm blooded critters - when they go into standby mode there's very little brain activity and all, yanno ?

The pet shop I got my first kitty from, now, they had gotten stuck with a VERY large komodo dragon confiscated from a local dope dealer, which no one else had the facilities for, nor dared deal with, and so we built him a little plexiglass unit of his own, and then built one out of lexan after he busted the hell out of the plexi - watch OUT for the tail, man, those things are quick and very dangerous with it, and they WILL bite you with little or no provocation.

Also, as mentioned before I've spent some time in florida, some of it in gator country, and the place where I was stayin, the little ones would have a bad habit of climbin outta the swamp up into the yards and such, annoyin the hell out of the seniors living there, who were pretty wussified about it, so it wasn't an uncommon thing to see me lugging a 3-4 foot gator back down the road to where he belonged, they're not all that scary till they get to be six feet and more, and on land, they ain't even all that dangerous...

But heaven help you if they get a hold of you in water more than knee deep, they're strong as hell, and will suck you down like an undertow and then roll ya over till you stop kickin, at which point they'll find a nice nook or cranny down there and stash ya under it till ya get good and ripe - great way of gettin rid of folk, dumpin them out in the middle of the glade, or at least it used to be.

Thing about gators is, they never get no smarter, just bigger, and they some dumb critters, kinda like the rest of florida (including the people!) so they're not so very dangerous.

Did have a moment of hilarity with one about four and a half feet, who came out from under the trailer and snapped his jaws around my shin... my RIGHT shin, which is built of nickle-steel reinforced titanium - and me lookin down at him tryin to figure out how to get his stupid ass to let GO so I could take him back down the road, all the while threatening to make him into a fine set of boots....

Not really a reptile person, me, but not especially averse to em, neither.

-Frem

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:05 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Jezus, a komodo?? Must have been imported before the ban, 'cuz even black market doesn't deal with THEM much!!

Imagine how that crock felt, hanging on to something that just didn't SEEM like dinner, when he knew what he thought he'd grabbed was red meat!

And don't forget the tail on THOSE puppies, either!!

No reptiles aren't that bright, and it's hard to relate to them. But don't let anyone ever tell you they don't have personalities, because they DO!

Me, I'm fascinated by how they move, the smoothness of their scales and their beauty. I had one boa that would crawl along the ledge of a two-inch piece of wood nailed to the wall no sweat, and I loved to watch him. I usually ended up with big branches of manzanita hanging from my ceiling, just to watch them travel. Can't help but admire the muscle control...

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, April 13, 2010 11:28 AM

Yep, full size adult komodo dragon, bout nine feet long, 110-120lbs and meaner than all hell.

How they got it into the country I couldn't tellya, but like I said, they were dope dealers that this thing was confiscated from, so I doubt they were too concerned - and the high end crooks keep some damn weird pets, one of em had a tiger!

It got dumped on the pet shop guy cause he owed the local police a favor, and the humane society and DNR didn't want nothing to do with it, so we made the best of it, I was fond of telling the kids he was "just a baby" and would get to where he could breathe fire in around a thousand years or so...
hehehehehe

We couldn't SELL it, and we did manage to score some $$$ from DNR to feed it, so about all we could do with it was hold it up as an attraction to draw folk into the store - AFTER we made sure the cage was secure, cause he bashed the hell out of that plexi right quick, I dunno if they're naturally tempermental or what, but this dude had serious anger management issues...

-F

ETA: Gator, mind, gators got a round nose, Crocs got a pointy one - not that it matters as they're just bigass lizards with huge teeth...

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:27 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ooops, I should have known better, after years of watching Irwin...mea culpa. Gators, of course.

Komodo dragons? They're mean as shit, all of 'em. Not a non-ornery one ever born. At least the snakes that get big are docile when young, and just "grumpy" when they get big...but Komodo dragons were BORN with a chip on their shoulder the size of Mt. Everest!

How did you get him back once he'd broke free?? That would be interesting to watch. I don't never want to get near one of those puppies...a single bite is all it takes, or even their saliva falling on an open wound.

Hell, they're not even CUTE! At least many lizards are cute, they've got that going for them, but those bastards? Hell no!! Brrrr...just thinking about it...

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
How did you get him back once he'd broke free?? That would be interesting to watch. I don't never want to get near one of those puppies...a single bite is all it takes, or even their saliva falling on an open wound.

Well, back in my glory days *eyeroll* I was way faster and meaner, and no stupid lizard was gonna scare me - but I ain't stupid neither, and was wearing triple layered handling gloves with a chainmail insert, mind you.

Them glory days were twenty and more years ago, and I am still damn quick, with my hands anyways - fast enough to get into mock fights with cats and win by smacking their paws down, still..
(this frustrates the hell outta me and the ex's kitties)
But at the time I was still freaky fast, and had him cornered, wrapped up and duct taped before he could get a second snap off once he missed the first one - and then he hit me with that damn tail so I taped that to to his nose and watched him run in circles till he wore hisself out.
Not real nice, I know, but I was pissed at him.

They are nasty lil bastards though, why anyone would ever want one as a pet is beyond me.

-F

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:04 PM

Is it bad that I laughed at the tail thing?

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:21 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Absolutely not, so did I! I don't know why anyone would want one, either, Frem...given the people you said it was confiscated from, tho', might given an inkling, eh?

I have no problem with what you did...self-preservation is a good thing, and taping his nose to his tail might well have saved you some pain...plus if you'd continue to try and get 'im, who knows what might have happened. Letting him wear HIMSELF out was smart, in my opinion.

Besides, aside from obvious abuse, which I abhor in any animal or child, I have no problem with being "not so nice" to Komodos...they're not so nice themselves!

Gators are cute when they're tiny, but I can't imagine a Komodo EVER being "cute". I know Florida has a problem with people getting gators when they're small as pets then not knowing what to do with 'em. People can be such idjits...

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:27 PM

Is it wrong that I think Komodos are kinda cute?

I'd actually kinda like to have one in my back yard. Call it a "watch lizard". Creepers might hop the fence and not be too worried about a dog, but if they get one look at a 9-foot monster lizard with a yellow forked tongue, I think they just might rethink their life of crime! :)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:44 PM

I have no problems with komodo, never met one though.

It was just, the tail thing... and the running in circles... And how I can hear the Komodo saying "Ay! Not cool, mate! Get my tail down now, will ya? Aww, well now what? Can't even run inna straight line to get at the drongo!"

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Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:46 PM

Well, yeah, that image is funny as hell.

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Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:22 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, ye of little sense...unless that was a joke, you have NO idea what Komodos are like! Besides, anyone sneaking over your fence and bit by him would sue...well, their FAMILY would sue, 'cuz they wouldn't be around any more, period!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:58 PM