Romanticization of the Civil War by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Romanticization of the Civil War

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, July 21, 2024 19:45
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Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:54 PM

Strength is also a matter of willpower, you might not have the patience or persistence to physically "pwn" a person if you lacked willpower. So I say willpower is a factor of strength, and a person with a weak will is automatically weak.

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Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Er- Kwicko? I imagine you're just joking and also trying to nudge the southern pride people into some entertaining tirades, but you know Frem's thing? About government being forced down on people with guns (and here, nuclear threats)?

I don't condone that kind of crap from Israel towards the Palestinians, let alone my own government towards, well, ANY of us... >_>

Relax, Byte. I'm joking, or course. But the thing is, I'm also *not* joking. The President of the United States of America is the one with the launch codes, the only one with authority to launch the birds. Sure, some of those nukes might be in the South, but they're not gonna have access to them, or be able to use 'em for anything if they could. And I don't doubt that the federal government WOULD use them if that were the case. After all, was there any step they DIDN'T take last time around?

So while you might find that horrifying, be aware that the stakes really are that high. Secede, and see what happens. (And don't for a moment think the Union troops wouldn't carry out their orders; they've been trained to get over that silly sentimentality)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:06 PM

KWICKO

I note for the record that I have no army. I *do* have a bank-robbing team, though. And we're always looking for new talent.

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Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:07 PM

MINCINGBEAST

damn it kwicko, you may have been joking about the army, but you better not be joking about the bank robbing team.

when are try-outs?

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Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:09 PM

BYTEMITE

._.

But what if you secede in a really funny and/or stupid way, such that everyone is too busy making fun of you to care, and is kind of glad you're gone based on your behaviour?

http://www.unwatch.com/virgin-laverkin.html
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ObfuscatingStupidity

They might be smarter than all of us. o.o

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Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:15 PM

MINCINGBEAST

wait, weren't those hutaree fools interested in seceding? they're plan, though dangerous, was actually rather funny.

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Thursday, April 15, 2010 3:33 PM

KWICKO

If you secede in a hilarious way, you get the Smiley Nuke:

Best I can offer ya.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, April 16, 2010 6:51 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I note for the record that I have no army. I *do* have a bank-robbing team, though. And we're always looking for new talent.

In that case , you are thoroughly self-screwed !

You don't even have a plan!

Robbing banks is for chumps!

Better to rob the banksters, then
brand them , and sell them to the Chinese !

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Friday, April 16, 2010 7:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I've been joking, too...just to clarify. I have no truk with war, of any kind.

But along that line:

I like OTB's idea best. Those are the guys screwing ALL of us, North and South; get rid of them, and maybe the South would be more reasonable...maybe.

But the smilie bomb gave me my first laugh of the morning anyway; thanx Mike!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, April 16, 2010 8:27 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I've been joking, too...just to clarify. I have no truk with war, of any kind.

Truk had war , like it or not...

Nice Truk , even for an underwater wreck

Tank in Truk

WTF? in Truk

WET airplane in Truk

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Friday, April 16, 2010 8:35 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

If you need your Truk for war , here are some clues as to whether it is Hevi Duty enuf :

1. Directions to your house include "turn off the paved road."
2. You have been ogling tires at the Firestone store that are taller than your ten-year old.
3. You are getting transferred to Texas or the Arizona Hill country. Even if you live on a paved road, Hevi Duty makes you an instant player at the Moose Lodge.
4. Your next job interview is at a quarry.
5. You are contemplating moving ... your house.
6. You are making good on your kid’s wish for a pony.
7. You have the kind of job (oil rig, gas field, power company field operator) that puts the life expectancy of a pair of jeans at less than that of a honeybee.
8. You look at hills and buttes in terms of how much aggregate can be pulled out of them instead of how long they will take to climb.
9. You unintentionally lengthened the wheelbase of your pickup the last time you went to tow a trailer.
10. You went to pick up a hubcap off the ground and it turned out to be your belt-buckle.

Bargain Hevi Duty Truks :

http://www.easternsurplus.net/deuce.html

http://www.secoaugusta.com/Cargo/2.5_cargo.html

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Friday, April 16, 2010 8:56 AM

MINCINGBEAST

i haven't been joking. about any of this. i guess the joke is on me.

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Friday, April 16, 2010 9:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, OTB, thank you for my second giggle of the day. In a place where those beasts are NEVER needed (except as penis enhancements), I despise them. 90% of them never saw any use but being driven around by men (and a few women) who love to look down on other cars and think "I could squash you if I wanted"...and never being able to see AROUND the goddamned things, I thoroughly enjoyed your post!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, April 19, 2010 10:14 PM

FREMDFIRMA

it took quite a while, and some help from my electronic "self" to dig this up, and in a format available online - but finally, here it is.

The Hampton Roads Peace Conference: A Final Test of Lincoln's Presidential Leadership
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jala/21.1/harris.html

It rather blows a great big gaping hole in most of the arguments expressed that the civil war really had much if anything to do with slavery.

You can also find John Vensons capsule explaination here.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/denson6.html

One problem most history of the era runs into is the wild and bizarre contortions one must perform in trying to make Lincoln look like a decent guy despite his behavior being more of a mad tyrant than even Caligula ever was, and this requires whitewashing or omitting pesky things like facts and details.

-F

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Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:37 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
it took quite a while, and some help from my electronic "self" to dig this up, and in a format available online - but finally, here it is.

The Hampton Roads Peace Conference: A Final Test of Lincoln's Presidential Leadership
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jala/21.1/harris.html

It rather blows a great big gaping hole in most of the arguments expressed that the civil war really had much if anything to do with slavery.

You can also find John Vensons capsule explaination here.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/denson6.html

One problem most history of the era runs into is the wild and bizarre contortions one must perform in trying to make Lincoln look like a decent guy despite his behavior being more of a mad tyrant than even Caligula ever was, and this requires whitewashing or omitting pesky things like facts and details.

-F

Ditto...

Happily , the FremBot never sleeps !

I have a favorite book concerning Lincoln and his record on Civil Liberties , which is pretty abysmal.

Searching for the Hardback is often worthwhile , as it is frequently available for less than the paperback edition :

http://www.amazon.com/Fate-Liberty-Abraham-Lincoln-Liberties/dp/019508
0327/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271784266&sr=1-1

'...If Abraham Lincoln was known as the Great Emancipator, he was also the only president to suspend the writ of habeas corpus.

Indeed, Lincoln's record on the Constitution and individual rights has fueled a century of debate, from charges that Democrats were singled out for harrassment to Gore Vidal's depiction of Lincoln as an "absolute dictator."

Now, in the Pulitzer Prize-winning The Fate of Liberty, one of America's leading authorities on Lincoln wades straight into this controversy, showing just who was jailed and why, even as he explores the whole range of Lincoln's constitutional policies.

Mark Neely depicts Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus as a well-intentioned attempt to deal with a floodtide of unforeseen events: the threat to Washington as Maryland flirted with secession, disintegrating public order in the border states, corruption among military contractors, the occupation of hostile Confederate territory, contraband trade with the South, and the outcry against the first draft in U.S. history. Drawing on letters from prisoners, records of military courts and federal prisons, memoirs, and federal archives, he paints a vivid picture of how Lincoln responded to these problems, how his policies were actually executed, and the virulent political debates that followed.

...In addition, Neely explores the abuses of power under the regime of martial law: the routine torture of suspected deserters, widespread antisemitism among Union generals and officials, the common practice of seizing civilian hostages. He finds that though the system of military justice was flawed, it suffered less from merciless zeal, or political partisanship, than from inefficiency and the friction and complexities of modern war.'

Reviews

"A thorough and meticulously documented study....Highlighted by more than thirty pages of well-researched endnotes, a comprehensive index, and an index of 'prisoners of state.' Highly recommended."--Choice

"An important book....[Neely's] research is broad and deep, not only in range of the usual primary materials but in a massive amount of sources in the National Archives on specific cases, hitherto unused."--Indiana Magazine of History

"An impressive work, finely written and carefully presented. An important contribution that will serve the undergraduate as well as [the] scholar."--Professor Dennis M. Shannon, Alabama University - Montgomery

"An in-depth summary of how Lincoln and his administration handled civil rights in the deepest crisis the nation has ever endured....A chilling reminder that personal liberty always hangs in tremulous balance when the nation is tangled in desperate crisis."--The Grand Rapids Press

"At last, some 125 years after the end of the Civil War, we have a more accurate and honest understanding of the Lincoln administration and civil liberties. After years of painstaking archival research Mark Neely presents a compelling argument that history should be left to those who do research and not to novelists, literary critics, or thos with political axes to grind, like the 'lost cause' partisan who wrote American Bastile. Neely's book, which is the best scholarly examination of this issue ever written, will rehabilitate Lincoln's reputation on civil liberties....Extremely convincing."--Paul Finkleman, The Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography

"By far the best book on the subject.....Masterful."--Gabor S. Boritt, Illinois Issues

"Excellent book--very informative, and appropriate for today's times as well as for the last century. I think it 'must' reading for students taking a course on the Civil War, and it would be apprpriate reading for several other courses."--Robert Langran, Villanova University

"In this Pulitzer Prize-winning study, Mark Neely makes a major contribution to th[e] revision of the analysis of the nature of war behind the lines....A refreshing historical revision of the inner workings of the Union effort, which all too often is presented as if it had been a well-oiled machine....It is to be hoped that this book will stimulate others to look at the impact of the war on civilians in more detailled ways."-Michael Fellman, Canadian Review of American Studies

"Intriguing....Neely has refined the debate with exhaustive and impressive research. He has supplied detail and restored context to discussions of civil liberties during the Civil War. His questions are good ones. His answers are striking....The first book-length study of civil liberties during the Lincoln administrations. It will set a standard."--Francis N. Stites, Civil War History

"[An] excellent study of civil liberties in the North during the Civil War....Neely writes in clear, straightforward prose....An impressive and valuable addition to the literature of the Civil War."--The Journal of American History

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Tuesday, April 20, 2010 5:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Frem, I disagree. Just as WWI was not about Hitler, the Civil War was not about Lincoln. Larger forces were at work. Reducing history to individuals is misleading.

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Tuesday, April 20, 2010 5:56 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Erk, sorry, didn't mean it to come off that way - admittedly I have serious *issues* with "Honest" Abe, but I didn't mean for it to overshadow the rest of it - there were a hell of a lot of issues at work indeed, mostly economic, but a lot of social ones as well, and it's not like Lincoln was alone in pushing for the Federalist Oligarchy neither, and it gets REALLY complicated when you add in northern opposition to emancipation...

I did find it interesting that the offer to "buy them out" was made - and yes, that woulda gone pretty far cause as of 1808 the importation of new slaves was prohibited by law (not that this stopped it, but at least it deprived it of legitimacy), but that wasn't at all the "sticking point" with either side of the issue.

Anyhows, yes, I got a real hate-on for Lincoln, being originally a grudge-holding Marylander, but I didn't mean for that to overshadow the myriad causes and effects in both directions, combined with a stunning lack of honesty on both sides, which made the war as inevitable as the souths lack of industrial capacity made the outcome.

-F

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Monday, January 23, 2023 12:48 PM