A message for Frem by AnthonyT

Sure thing, imma post it here and PM it to ya.
https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/0/bd7eed04567bfe2b85256e3b002f
29c1?OpenDocument
ETA: I have found though, that some rare subset of these folk are ITSP rather than ETSP, and so damn dangerous they're downright scary, they have that same chill wind blowin off em that ole Jelly Brice had, even if you have no idea, their mere presence gives folk the shivers.

ETA2: We did develop a simpler, though less accurate test for this, at one time - stage an incident of slightly distant gunfire, and see who barrels off in that direction immediately to get in on it - worked pretty well.

Preyin on my mind as of late is the wonder whether an A.I. can be emphathetic, or emulate it, to the point where you really start to wonder - this was provoked by running across the work of Hatsune Miku (Vocaloid Singer), who is in truth, not much more than a program, and yet...

Maybe it's having dealt with so many messed up folk who suffer from really bad emotional crippling/stunting, or maybe it's the influence of the folk doing the "programming" - but I swear there's an emotional context in her work, that carries through.

Really, how "human" does one have to be for consideration as one ?

And conversely, at what point can one NO LONGER be considered "human" due to their own actions and choices ?

Quote:
What, then, is the sword that gives life?
-Ellis Amdur; Satsujin no Ken - Katsujin no Ken

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 3:44 PM

I suspect we're living in a brief golden age where everyone Whois a member of the species is considered to be human, and that it will decay rather than expand to cover AIs, GMOs, etc. I think we're seeing it fray around the edges right now with the the war on terror. I suspect this will lead to some new class that will act as a placeholder for human, so people can be not-it because of their actions, then perhaps their intent, and finally some prejudgement grouping.

Yes, sure, this latest war-on isn't that different from its predecessors, be each of them in turn increases the dehumanization, as could be argued with 'crackhead' etc. If you shoot one, it's not like you shot a person, right? And if it does come down to a psychological profile, it's not going to be a pretty sight. I feel as if we just got out of that situation with mental health. If you really want to know who your friends are and what sorts of people have human compassion, try being schizophrenic for a while, it really separates the population.

Meanwhile, mmm unexpected may snowstorm. Tomatoes must come in. Good idea: keeping them in pots.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 3:47 PM

Another ipad quirk, can't edit a post. Otherwise, would be

ETA: it will be AI when she decides to cover Belinda Carlisle herself without any human input ;)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 5:43 PM

Well, actually I was in fact mostly thinkin about it from the other direction, particularly whether or not a creature with no empathy could even be considered sentient...

And thinkin on it for a good bit of the past two days, my opinion ?
Nope.

Think about it, not just talkin humans now, but all critters great and small, ponder how empathy, at least so far as the ability to comprehend your prey/predators, plays a role in animal behavior and perceived (by humans) intelligence - to where the most successful are the ones who survive, and the survivors are the ones with the ability to predict and react, and how protective camoflauge evolves, making one wonder if nature itself does not have an empathic resonance, something I have alluded to before and suspect is probably the case.

And then, with all that firmly in mind, consider just how anti-human, even anti-sentient, a lack of empathy is - in the end, long term, species-survival kind of way, it's the most self-defeating possible development because it was the ability to bond, relate to, and work cooperatively with, other humans and animals that gave us civilization in the first place, an undeniable truth which blows great gaping holes in the notion that humans must be controlled "for their own good", the very bedrock most governments rest upon, and knocks it completely to flinders when you consider who'd be *doing* that controlling... other humans.

Pretty easy to see the flaw in THAT theory, when you come at it from the right angle, innit ?

Hell, it's even anti-survival, you plunk down eight empathic people on a deserted island, and eight sociopaths, which set is likely to survive and prosper ?

Which kinda made me wonder about those stupid reality shows and the sheer AMOUNT of learned sociopathy as a defense mechanism in a society build around the notion of elevating and rewarding it - again, I see our doom in this, because one aspect of empathy is also, the ability to hate.

And nature, well, she's a bitch, and cares not for any individual human, but rather the survival of the species as a whole, and one of the downsides to the powerfully empathic kids I've been seeing over the past ten years is that they have a tremendously deep well of hostility towards us and our society.

For all our technical and technological superiority, socially, emotionally, psychologically, we're still stuck in the same basic place the cavemen were, only with shinier toys, and our society has caused this to stagnate and even retrograde, a state of affairs I do not believe is any more viable in the long term than spinning a plate on a broomstick, with results as potentially disastrous.

In the end, I think it's gonna come to evolve-or-die, and I ain't exactly too sanguine about our chances.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 5:54 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
you plunk down eight empathic people on a deserted island, and eight sociopaths, which set is likely to survive and prosper ?

The Vulcan.

Sorry.

Seriously, the peep(s) who can learn quickest. More times than not, that's the 'Paths, but some of us Dinks can fool ya!

The Dylan Hunt Chrisisall

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 6:10 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Thank you so much, Frem.

If you haven't read it already, the book 'Columbine' has a very interesting segment on psychopathy. The book is very even handed and very intelligent in its analysis.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 8:01 PM

That'd be Cullens work on it, and of course, prettymuch ignored cause it dares shatter folks precious illusions, points fingers, and asks hard questions - none of which are ever especially well recieved.

I get the feeling you were askin for that bit for reasons other than mere curiosity, and if you wanna discuss, I'm down - sure beats watchin folk beat dead horses.

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 8:10 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

The answer is bizarre enough that any attempt to discuss it here would probably devolve the thread into something I'd rather not deal with.

The short and sanitized version...

There's people out there who are forming crime-watch groups. I wanted them to be careful. Not everyone who volunteers for this stuff is the same kind of person. The wrong kind of person could end the movement pretty quickly if they aren't noticed beforehand.

The same qualities that make someone 'right' for some kinds of work may make them 'wrong' for what these folks hope to accomplish.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 9:06 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Anthony,

Good to see you here again! Are you familiar with the work of Dr. Paul Ekman?

http://www.paulekman.com/

He's been studying the biology of emotional expression since the 50's and is an expert in deception detection. A working familiarity with his principles sure does wonders for being able to spot the rotten eggs.

If you have Netflix you can watch the first season of the tv show Lie to Me for which he is the principal consultant. It's actually my new favorite show (tm) and a very digestible overview of his work and its application.

Anyone here seen it?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 9:11 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I enjoy the show Lie to Me. Though I worry that the people I need to segregate are the very finest of very fine liars.

I will look for his books, though. You could fill the library of congress with the things I do not know.

Oh look, they have. ;-)

Thanks for the warm homecoming.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 10:09 PM

Ah yes, the infamous "personnel difficulties" as I term it.

And that comes in many, MANY more flavors than you know, guy.
From nice people who wanna help, unaware of the catastrophic damage it'll do to their psyche, to well meaning but entirely too rabid crusader types, and everything in between, even moles, since the big rings do actually use em, and for just that very reason, to spike the opposition.

There's also one problem none of em, not even law enforcement, will admit, countenance, or discuss, and that is the possibility of a different kind of damage, where inurement and emotional burnout can cause an initially decent person to "turn" - there's a reason (besides the fact that it's one of the few charges that'll stick) that this is among the top five crimes cops wind up charged with, you know.

Again, I have found that the best people to do this kinda work, at least on the heavy lifting end as you might call it, are some nasty bits of work themselves, angry, bitter, even hateful, straight-up misanthropes who's hatred of other people is only outclassed by their hatred of the bad guys in particular - folks with horrors and issues in their own mind that make any external ones pansified by comparison, it armors them, allows them to carry on, coldly logical and practical, when most folks break, and gives a positive outlet where they can actually do some good.

Although, the days where beating someone within an inch of their life would do anything good for a situation are prettymuch gone, which is why I have handed off those operations to Justin and content myself with a bit of political meddling instead - although the threat still has it's place, one of his favorite opening gambits is "deal with me... or deal with HIM, your choice."

Worst of it is that I am more misanthropic than they are, I just got such an effective leash on it, is all - think of how you would feel towards someone if you were forced to watch as they slowly tortured some kittens to death, and consider that I feel that way towards damned near every single member of a society I feel is complicit in so much abuse... *all the time*.
That's hard to deal with, some days.

As for your post, HKCav, lemme put this bit out there, since it's one way someone like me can completely foul that kind of determination.

Yes, those kind of tricks will eventually root out deception no matter how good someone is at it, because eventually their own reactions WILL betray them at some point - but only if they're trying to hide it.

The key to jamming the works on that kinda thing... is to go the other way, deliberately adapt "lying" signal-behaviors and train them in till they become habit, so that NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, every single time it'll read back "Deception" - even if you're telling the stone truth, even if they KNOW you're telling the stone truth.

At which point it becomes utterly pointless for anyone to try.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 8, 2010 11:19 PM

Went back and read that again, and just in case...

The very folk I mentioned, so useful at crushing such activity online - are, offline, in something like a neighborhood watch, the absolute worst possible candidates, yeah.

Anything like that, well hell dude, you did contract security too, you know as well as I do how to vet folk and teach em how to be something other than a power trippin goon.

Of course, I think imma hold my tongue on how to weed out the 'problem children' in a public forum for liability issues, I think.

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 9, 2010 2:09 AM

Frem,

It keeps wanting to change you to rem or Fremont, can't make up it's mind.

The psycho issue yes. I'm familiar with it, I wondered if that was what you meant. I think the psycho mentality is much like the bankers and various political operatives, ie., purely parasitic. In a faceless society they can do quite well, by just manipulating others, but I agree that they would be consumed by mother nature if they had nothing to feed on.

Empathy is essential in nature , not just for cooperation, but any relationship, including predator/prey. I remember this great discovery video if I can find it.

Goes like this: somewhere in Africa, kalihari, I think
Cat tracks a mouse to his home, waits in a tree for him to come out. He is already out foraging. Cat spots him, leaps down, landing between him and his home.
Mouse attacks

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 9, 2010 2:32 AM

Maximum size to posts on this thing, probably a good idea for me.. Anyway

Frem, continuing,

Mouse charges, stops short, cat jumps back. Now mouse has a shot at going home. Instead of running, he attacks the cat again, this thine not stopping. Cat defensively leaps up onto the dead branch he was crouched on before. Starts to rethink the situation, Mouse starts to climb the tree after cat. Cat runs away.

Yet, it's the only successful endgame for mouse that doesn't involve living with a cat outside his door.

A lot of peep running our society are parasitic, I don't think they know this, they think they are superior, but if the rest of us were to disappear or stop playing along, they would collapse, not because they need us, your right, it's because they would start gaming each other in the same way, until there was no one left.

Of course, that superiority complex is why they think a society run by humans who are them would work, because they think they are superhuman. a perception that I suspect a lot of psychopaths have.

All of our empathetic connections are being undermined by disconnected social structures, not just television, et al, but they do their share of damage in allowing us to watch human interactions and infer from them that people are really like this, ESP, yes, when touted as "reality" but also, throughout society, even our economy is dehumanizing. People don't stop and think, "oh, what can I do for them, if I want them to do this for me" they start thinking "I have money, now someone will do what I want them to" and "oh no, it's not working out, clearly I don't have enough money," to "I better do something radical to get more money to make people do what I want."

I think humanity will survive, but I don't car for what it might survive as, if it doesn't reel back from The me universe. An argument that it wouldn't survive might be a helpful push though;)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 9, 2010 7:42 AM

CANTTAKESKY

This probably deserves it's own thread, but I can't help wondering the empathy capability of the goons at the border.

-----
“Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive and then go do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." --- Dr. Wayne Dyer

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 9, 2010 7:43 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Thanks for the warm homecoming.

--Anthony

Welcome back, from me too.

-----
“Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive and then go do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive." --- Dr. Wayne Dyer

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 9, 2010 3:00 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Thank you. :-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 9, 2010 3:18 PM

BYTEMITE

Hey Anthony, good luck organizing your watch. Drop in to see us now and then. :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 9, 2010 3:52 PM

A bit I really have to add, since it's so bloody accurate and relevant to the topic at hand.

Why Does the World Feel Wrong?
http://www.strike-the-root.com/91/groves/groves1.html

Quote:
Our battle for liberty appears not just as a conflict between those who want freedom versus those who want control, but instead as the battle between normal people and the psychopaths. I have found incredible explanatory power of our world within the psychopathic hypothesis: The world feels wrong because psychopaths run it. In a country trained to discount and ridicule all ideas more than a standard deviation from the average, coherent explanations of observable social phenomena don't get much press. Without understanding physical laws, we would never have gained the massive improvements in our quality of life from technological developments. Similarly, without understanding our social systems, we will never escape from the tyranny unleashed on us by psychopaths. We should spread the word and explore this rich vein of thought with vigor.

So telling, that.

Quote:
“There are two great powers and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit.
-Philip Pullman;The Subtle Knife

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 10, 2010 5:08 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

There was a work of fiction called 'The Genesis Secret' that suggested as part of its storyline that

A) X tens of thousands of years ago, there was a merging between a highly predatory (psychopathic) species of humankind and a less predatory species. This merging being evident in the archaeological evidence at Gobekli Tepe.

B) The predatory genes have been surfacing occasionally in our gene pool since then, providing the sociopaths and psychopaths who tend to become our leaders because of the unique qualities of their mindset.

I don't know that I agree with the author's speculative position A. However, position B seems rather spot on.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 10, 2010 1:27 PM

Anthony,

Welcome back,

Asia minor would be an ice age barrier separating many of the people of three continents. Prior to the ice age, the human race was in a much more primitive form, so the effects of the thaw would have been profound. . I don't know this story though. I tend to assume that this is all psychological, but I haven't ruled out genetics. Certainly the neanderthal brain is very different from the cromagnon, enough that, while objectively of the same intelligence, neanderthal did not build civilizations. THe two groups got into a major war around this time, 13kya. It's possible is all I'm saying. Do you have details on this?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 10, 2010 1:55 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I can only refer you to the novel The Genesis Secret, which begins with some basic items of historical and archaeological interest, and proceeds to make wild leaps of imagination to unfold its fictional narrative.

The entire story centers around the importance of Gobekli Tepe, an archaeological anomaly that is of serious interest to people studying early man. Apparently, the find has forced some re-evaluating about when human beings started doing various things. The only thing more interesting than its construction at such an early era is the fact that it was deliberately buried. I imagine one could write many pieces of speculative fiction about the site.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 10, 2010 2:39 PM