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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I hope every Hispanic law enforcement officer in Arizona shows up to demand every white protester's papers. Should be fun.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Piz: The LAW is that you DO have to check peoples' papers when you're hiring. I don't know about you, but every job I've had, I've had to provide ID, tax info, AND my social security card and/or birth certificate.

I think what you're not seeing is that I'm asking that employers be responsible to check EVERYONE'S background and status when hiring.

And just to play devil's advocate - I now know exactly how to get into this country if I'm any kind of illegal or terrorist. Go through Arizona or New Mexico, and their porous borders. And since, as you've pointed out, only Hispanics are illegals, then I know that if I'm black, Asian, or caucasian, I'll have no problems at all, and nobody will ever find me or ask for my papers.

The problem when you apply any law only to ONE group is that you blind yourself to every group that doesn't fit. I thought Frem pointed that out pretty well with his burqa disguise that he used on his Muslim friend, who never saw him as any kind of threat, because women aren't even seen in some cultures.

Apply the same laws equally to everyone, and ask yourself how comfortable YOU would be with the kind of treatment you don't mind being done to someone else. That's all I've proposed. To read more into it is really reaching.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Pizmo, the point is it's a race based policy. You don't have to be in favor of immigration, documented or otherwise to think it's wrong.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Just for informational purposes: What I could find in a quick search:

According to Gallup, as of April 29th ( http://www.gallup.com/poll/127598/Americans-Favor-Oppose-Arizona-Immig
ration-Law.aspx), of All Americans:

Favor: 39%
Oppose: 30%
No Opinion: 31%

So it’s about evenly divided. The difference is when you poll for people who have heard or read about the law:

Of those who have heard/read a great deal:

Favor: 53%
Oppose:43%
No opinion:4%

Of those who have heard/read “a fair amount:

Favor: 51%
Oppose: 41%
No opinion: 5%

Of those who have not heard/read much:

Favor: 41%
Oppose: 31%
No opinion: 28%

Via Politico:

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Just more than half of the people who have heard of the law are in favor of a tough new immigration law in Arizona, according to a Gallup poll out Thursday.

Fifty-one percent of those polled nationwide who said they have heard of the new law favor the measure, which grants police to right to ask to see proof of citizenship from anyone they suspect of being an illegal immigrant. Thirty-nine percent said they oppose it.

Three-quarters of the Republicans and half of the independents polled said they approve of the law. Only 34 percent of Democrats said the same.

Seventy-eight percent of the people contact by Gallup said they had either heard a "great deal" or a "fair amount" about the state law.

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http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/36567.html

It’s only a sampling, but I think it shows that somebody’s figures are just a teeeeny bit off. It’s no “70%, except in Arizona; the rest of the country, of those who know nothing specifically about of the law, it’s about evenly divided. We’d have to find out what everyone thinks once they understand the law before we could get an accurate tally.

As to Hispanic population of Arizona, over several years, in proportion to illegal immigrants and Hispanics in general (legal and illegal):

In 2010, there were an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants in the state (Chapman, Steve (23 April 2010). "How immigration crackdowns backfire". Washington, DC: Washington Examiner. pp. 31. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/How-immigration-crac
kdowns-backfire-91842259.html). These constituted an estimated 7.9% of the population. (Slevin, Peter (30 April 2010). "New Arizona law puts police in 'tenuous' spot". Washington, DC: Washington Post. pp. A4. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/29/AR2010
042904970.html?sid=ST2010042905051)

Another says of Phoenix:

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Races, 2005 Data (% change from 2000 census):
White: 48.29% (-7.49%)
Hispanic or Latino: 41.76% (+7.70%)
Other race: 15.00% (-1.40%)

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http://www.usbeacon.com/Arizona/Phoenix.html

From American Thinker, April 2010:

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The estimated Hispanic population of Arizona is 29.5%. Arizona is the front lines of illegal immigration, with an estimated half a million illegal immigrants out of a population of 6.6 million. In Arizona illegal immigrants constitute approximately 7.5% of population, about twice the national average, estimated as 3.75% (11.6 out of 309 million).

Quote:

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http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/04/is_arizona_racist.html

As of 2008:

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The Census Bureau recently released population estimates of the states' Hispanic populations through 2007. In Arizona, 59 percent of Arizona's population are Anglo; 41 percent are non-White. Hispanics make up 30 percent of the population.

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http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0505datacentra
l05.html?&wired

About.com:

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The U.S. Census Bureau has released their data estimates on population statistics for the period ending July 1, 2005. Hispanic/Latino: 1,668,524; White: 4,440,804.

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http://phoenix.about.com/od/statistics/a/racestats2005.htm That’s a total of 6,109,328)

I’m not counting other races. Nobody can know the exact figures, and even the 2010 census won’t give us exact figures since it’s tough to count illegals, but it’s enough to give an idea. It has nothing to do with “Suspecting a strange acting Latino in Arizona of "possibly" being illegal”, which was already true. For me, it has only to do with the fact that the police HAVE to ask for the papers of anyone they suspect, on whatever pretense, of being illegal...and the only ones stopped will be those who look Hispanic, the huge majority of which are American citizens.

Financially (I assume these figures are for legal citizens, tho’ it doesn’t say so:

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Hispanics in Arizona account for $31.1 billion, or 16 percent of the state’s total buying power, according to an annual study by Arizona State University.

Arizona ranks fourth among the states in percentage of Hispanic residents. Hispanics comprise 30 percent of Arizona’s population, accounting for 1.9 million residents. The top three states are New Mexico (44 percent), California (36 percent) and Texas (36 percent).

• Arizona is sixth among the states for total Hispanic population. The top five are California (13.2 million), Texas (8.6 million), Florida (3.8 million), New York (3.2 million) and Illinois (1.92 million).

• Hispanics in metro Phoenix spend $831 a year, on average, shopping online. That places metro Phoenix third nationally, after New York ($883) and San Francisco ($879).

• Metro Phoenix is the No. 8 U.S. media market for Hispanic TV households.

• The median age for a Latino in Arizona is 25, compared with 42 for a white resident.

• The median annual income for a Hispanic household is $46,548, compared with $55,554 for a white household

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http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2009/11/16/daily31.html

Obviously we can’t know exact figures, especially when it comes to illegal immigrants, but that’s a sampling. I have a bit more faith in the American people than some do.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Yea well you're icky and have cooties *razberrys*

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Lemme boil down what Mikey is telling you, into small words you can understand.

Human Rights are in effect, absolute.

That means they either apply to EVERYONE, or they apply to NO ONE.
Anything else is an act of tyranny and oppression.

Therefore, if we're gonna start carding folk to prove they are citizens we must then do so to EVERYONE, or do so to NO ONE, else it's naught but singling out a particular group for oppression.

Is THAT clear enough for you ?

-Frem

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I hope every Hispanic law enforcement officer in Arizona shows up to demand every white protester's papers. Should be fun.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Lemme boil down what Mikey is telling you, into small words you can understand.

Human Rights are in effect, absolute.

That means they either apply to EVERYONE, or they apply to NO ONE.
Anything else is an act of tyranny and oppression.

Therefore, if we're gonna start carding folk to prove they are citizens we must then do so to EVERYONE, or do so to NO ONE, else it's naught but singling out a particular group for oppression.

Is THAT clear enough for you ?

-Frem

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Originally posted by Niki2:
My gawd, Frem, you're repling to the ZIT? He's not even sentient!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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I'm not worth replying too? Then suck it bitch! I'll enjoy ignoring your posts.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Piz: The LAW is that you DO have to check peoples' papers when you're hiring. I don't know about you, but every job I've had, I've had to provide ID, tax info, AND my social security card and/or birth certificate.

I think what you're not seeing is that I'm asking that employers be responsible to check EVERYONE'S background and status when hiring.

And just to play devil's advocate - I now know exactly how to get into this country if I'm any kind of illegal or terrorist. Go through Arizona or New Mexico, and their porous borders. And since, as you've pointed out, only Hispanics are illegals, then I know that if I'm black, Asian, or caucasian, I'll have no problems at all, and nobody will ever find me or ask for my papers.

The problem when you apply any law only to ONE group is that you blind yourself to every group that doesn't fit. I thought Frem pointed that out pretty well with his burqa disguise that he used on his Muslim friend, who never saw him as any kind of threat, because women aren't even seen in some cultures.

Apply the same laws equally to everyone, and ask yourself how comfortable YOU would be with the kind of treatment you don't mind being done to someone else. That's all I've proposed. To read more into it is really reaching.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

If my father visits me from Florida, he can be detained by the police for not having identification proving his US citizenship.

If I walk my dog around the block and forget my wallet at home, I can be arrested by the police for not having identification proving my US citizenship.

Never before has it been an arrestable offense to walk around without papers proving citizenship.

This law is a step towards an America where you have to have government papers with you at all times just to have the right to share air.

No, thank you. My freedom is worth more to me than any 'security' this law claims to provide.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

If my father visits me from Florida, he can be detained by the police for not having identification proving his US citizenship.

Answer- nope

If I walk my dog around the block and forget my wallet at home, I can be arrested by the police for not having identification proving my US citizenship.

Answer - nope

Never before has it been an arrestable offense to walk around without papers proving citizenship.

Reply - And it still isn't.

This law is a step towards an America where you have to have government papers with you at all times just to have the right to share air.

Reply- Nope. This law is a fair minded and logical response to the chaos the Fed. Gov't has allowed to happen by not doing something about illegal immigration

No, thank you. My freedom is worth more to me than any 'security' this law claims to provide.

--Anthony

Reply Most in AZ don't see it that way, as no one's freedom is being compromised here for security.

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Originally posted by whozit:

Quote:

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Pizmo, the point is it's a race based policy. You don't have to be in favor of immigration, documented or otherwise to think it's wrong.

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Prove it, show me in the law where the word "race" is printed? You libs in your quest to be fair are going to get people hurt. I don't see you libs doing alot secure the boarders, if your not going to help, then boycott Arizona Ice Tea then SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
Sign me up with the "open border thugs". The diversity and eager participation of the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" is one of the best things about our nation. The day we end that is the day we're essentially closing up shop as a beacon of freedom (assuming that hasn't happened already).

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
1, you merely walking down the street, and a cop, for no reason, pulls up, singles you out, and asks for your papers. That can't happen. Not w/ the new law

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Phoenix has the 2nd highest kidnapping rate IN THE WORLD."

Hello,

I would love to see more information on this.

I have lived here since 2004 and somehow I have failed to realize the criminal crisis that is suffocating me and threatening my livelihood.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:


I would love to see more information on this.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Phoenix has the 2nd highest kidnapping rate IN THE WORLD."

Hello,

I would love to see more information on this.

I have lived here since 2004 and somehow I have failed to realize the criminal crisis that is suffocating me and threatening my livelihood.

--Anthony

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Quote:

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Kidnapping Capital of the U.S.A.
Washington Too Concerned With al Qaeda Terrorists to Care, Officials Say

By BRIAN ROSS, RICHARD ESPOSITO and ASA ESLOCKER
February 11, 2009

In what officials caution is now a dangerous and even deadly crime wave,Phoenix, Arizona has become the kidnapping capital of America, with more incidents than any other city in the world outside of Mexico City and over 370 cases last year alone. But local authorities say Washington, DC is too obsessed with al Qaeda terrorists to care about what is happening in their own backyard right now.

"We're in the eye of the storm," Phoenix Police Chief Andy Anderson told ABC News of the violent crimes and ruthless tactics spurred by Mexico's drug cartels that have expanded business across the border. "If it doesn't stop here, if we're not able to fix it here and get it turned around, it will go across the nation," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

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Quote:

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

Quote:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
1, you merely walking down the street, and a cop, for no reason, pulls up, singles you out, and asks for your papers. That can't happen. Not w/ the new law

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For course it can.

My husband was walking down the street at 11:30 pm. Cops stop him, asks for ID. He said, "I don't have any on me." They arrest him for vagrancy.

Yup. Vagrancy. Just for walking without an ID.

It happens every day in America. Esp if you look poor or non-white. God help you if you are both poor AND non-white.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Phoenix has the 2nd highest kidnapping rate IN THE WORLD."

Hello,

I would love to see more information on this.

I have lived here since 2004 and somehow I have failed to realize the criminal crisis that is suffocating me and threatening my livelihood.

--Anthony

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You're kidding, right? I know it's not your usual M.O., but I have to ask, because it's so easily discoverable.....

Quote:

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Kidnapping Capital of the U.S.A.
Washington Too Concerned With al Qaeda Terrorists to Care, Officials Say

By BRIAN ROSS, RICHARD ESPOSITO and ASA ESLOCKER
February 11, 2009

In what officials caution is now a dangerous and even deadly crime wave,Phoenix, Arizona has become the kidnapping capital of America, with more incidents than any other city in the world outside of Mexico City and over 370 cases last year alone. But local authorities say Washington, DC is too obsessed with al Qaeda terrorists to care about what is happening in their own backyard right now.

"We're in the eye of the storm," Phoenix Police Chief Andy Anderson told ABC News of the violent crimes and ruthless tactics spurred by Mexico's drug cartels that have expanded business across the border. "If it doesn't stop here, if we're not able to fix it here and get it turned around, it will go across the nation," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

My singular experience with crime in the city of Phoenix involved a white anglo-saxon neighbor who brandished a firearm and fired it in the vicinity of my wife. I have since moved from that neighborhood, whose residents were 80 percent hispanic. (A bunch of illegal immigrants and gangsters, according to the air conditioner deliveryman who installed my wall-shaker.)

I am shocked to hear this blogger report that we have the second-highest kidnapping rate in the world. I wonder who is being kidnapped, and to what purpose? One would think the local paper would be plastered with front page articles about it. "John Hardy, Pizza Hut deliveryman, Kidnapped! Kidnappers want $20,000 for his safe return."

I feel there is an element to this story that is escaping me. I didn't think I was living in such ignorance. It troubles me that someone thousands of miles away can have a better handle on the criminal crisis surrounding me than I do.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
There is no discrimination tool here.

The citizens of AZ are faced with a very real, very growing problem of too much crime and too many illegals. This isn't a philosophical dance here. We're not talking hypotheticals. Phoenix has the 2nd highest kidnapping rate IN THE WORLD.

I wish folks would wake the hell up and face reality.

/B]

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