REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Obama trains soldiers that killing civilians is fun

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Saturday, May 15, 2010 08:03
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Friday, May 14, 2010 6:42 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



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Friday, May 14, 2010 7:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Unfortunately your reputation for flakery is gonna cause most folk to skip right over that, John.

I saw it, damn near posted it myself, but I felt it would be a pointless re-iteration of something I've already pointed out time and time again, about the endless little challenge-tests in basic to ensure that lip service aside, those fools will obey *ANY* order, no matter how immoral, outragous, or illegal.

That and I didn't find the guy all that convincing or credible cause he starts shoveling to try to deny any culpability or responsibility, and gets very evasive when asked about his own involvement - you can't come forward and say "everyone does it" without admitting you were part of it, not without looking like a liar and a tool, which he does.

Hell, I was honest about it, at the time I didn't really give a shit about the who, so long as I was gonna get to kill other humans with legal sanction, it wasn't moral qualms that caused me to not get on that plane so much as pure self-interest, cause it was obvious that was a lose-lose proposition, either the Sandinistas would catch and kill you, or the CIA "advisors" backing up the Contras would eliminate you as a liability, either way if you got on that plane you weren't coming back - so fuck em, I found something else to do and began to regain my own humanity in the doing of it.

The military is a cult, and one that happens to be balls-out insane, as is anyone part of it, but once you break with it, you should not, can not, play both sides, attempting to preserve your integrity and career while condemning it.

If the dude would man up and admit his own involvement he'd have been a lot more credible.

-Frem

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Friday, May 14, 2010 7:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hoo, kay, here we go:

PN, you're once again an ass--

First: the military does its own indoctrination and the President has nothing to do with that.

Second: This was in 2007, so if you want to put it that way, it HAS TO BE "BUSH trains soldiers..."

Third: I didn't hear anything about "fun"; I'm sure it's there in some people, but I heard indoctrination and chants and dehumanizing, not fun.

Just 'cuz I've done a lot of transcription, here is the first part verbatum:
Quote:

I grew up very religiously and very patriotic in a selective sense and I only wanted to hear things I wanted to hear and only things that I thought would make my country look better and make my beliefs look better and wasn’t very interested in seeing other perspectives and the version I had of my country was that we were going all throughout the world and doing all this great stuff and helping people in need and, you know, after 9/11 I was obviously affected by that and wanted to protect the people that I cared about and from everyone I trusted was told that the military would be a good way to do that and was also told that, you know, this country Iraq was being oppressed by this horrible dictator who is also a threat to us and if we can get rid of him not only will we be keeping ourselves safe, but we’ll also be helping this other country in the process.

How closely were your beliefs and your religious beliefs entwined?

They were pretty closely entwined and I went to a religious high school and one example is that in a government class I was in at this high school we read a book that was called The Faith of George W. Bush and people like that were held up as these people that were fighting for God’s will here on earth so religion was very interwoven with a sense of nationalism.

But in 2006 when you joined it was already clear that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, that Bush and Cheney had essentially lied to start a war, by 2006 that’s fairly acknowledged, had that penetrated to you, your school?

No, the people I was listening to, and again I wasn’t making any effort to challenge my thinking before saying, you know, that the media or other countries are out to make us look bad and, um, we were, we did the right thing and we’re doing the right thing and I might have had a few doubts in my mind but I comforted the doubts by saying even the reasons that were there weren’t completely justified were there and we’re mispositioned and we can’t just pull out and we need to help these people.

So even tho’ the weapons weren’t there...it’s still good versus evil?

Yeah, I bought into that a lot.

Frem, you can blame the guy all you want and say he should "man up", but I think he IS manning up by admitting how he got the mentality he did and that he had doubts in boot camp, wrote home to religious leaders, and their responses didn't fit with what he thought was right.

But fourth: We didn't get to hear the second part, which involves the actual killing of people, we only got to hear about boot camp. So how can you say he didn't "man up" and admit what HE did, if we don't know what he did?

Yes, it's horrible, there's no denying that whatsoever. But I think your take on it isn't fair.

Most of all, I want to say: Read the part of the interview I transcribed. RWA or not? EXACTLY what the guy who wrote The Authoritarians wrote? It fits precisely, ergo, you have to admit that this is what goes into creating RWA followers and they're not allowed to think for themselves until they come face to face with something which challenges their initial beliefs.

That's all. I'm not defending anything; again, I'm trying to interject perspective, nothing more. I hate the military and their brainwashing as much as anyone could, I'm making a point about how RWA followers get INTO this kind of thing.

And yes, it is unquestionably a cult, another very common RWA explanation.



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 14, 2010 8:09 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Is it possible to get a group of people together and convince them to wage a war effectively without an indoctrination and programming process?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, May 14, 2010 8:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Hey, this should be just the kind of thing PN loves. After all, he HAS suggested putting the military on the border with their fun little miniguns...


Or are Mexican nationals NOT considered civilians. I'm sure PN doesn't even consider them human, but still...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, May 14, 2010 8:20 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I actually think using the military to protect our borders would be a wise choice, as opposed to using them to protect other people's borders and to invade other countries.

I don't think miniguns are warranted, though. The drug runners and smugglers can't possibly be that well armed, and you wouldn't want to accidentally kill any passengers.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, May 14, 2010 8:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Anthony: I'm not convinced that militarizing our borders IS the wise choice. Again, it's being presented as if we HAVE TO use the military SOMEWHERE. It's always presented as, "Well, I'd rather have them on the border, instead of in Iraq or Afghanistan." Why do they have to be deployed anywhere? Why do we have to have such a massive military in the first place? It's not like any of it has protected us from terrorist attack, as we so clearly saw on 9/11. All the military in the world was utterly useless against 19 guys with a couple boxcutters.

And do you REALLY want hardcore military troops working the border? Put it this way: Would you want to go into another country where this was de rigeur at border crossings? Wasn't Checkpoint Charlie kind of the poster child for what was wrong with the old Iron Curtain? Why the rush by so many to erect our own version of it here?

And has anyone stopped to consider that any wall high enough to keep everyone else out, also is high enough to keep you IN? The very thing that makes a fortress, also makes a prison.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, May 14, 2010 9:02 AM

DREAMTROVE


I concur. You can lose a quark you don't girth. If you decide not fight a war, be prepared to lose.

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Friday, May 14, 2010 9:03 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Mike,

You have some well founded concerns.

First, I'd like to say that we have Checkpoint Charlies already, and they aren't always where you'd imagine them to be. A coworker of mine who regularly commutes to and from California (from Arizona) has described what I consider to be an alarming phenomenon. Apparently, he has to pass through some kind of checkpoint between here and there (and there and here.) Federal officers with K-9 units inquire about your purpose for transit, check your identity, and then, at a whim, they search your vehicle.

I say 'at a whim' because the decision to search is based on the dogs. If the dogs 'alert' to their masters (through a cryptic combination of barking or breathing differently or... Essentially whatever the master decides is an 'alert') then they separate you from the vehicle and search it. I find this abominable.

Anyhow, this is a checkpoint between states, curiously enough. There are doubtless similar checkpoints between ourselves and our neighboring countries. Checkpoint Charlies. Already present and accounted for. But anyway, it is not the checkpoints where I anticipate the major change to occur if we involve the military. It is rather the vast tracts of land that don't have checkpoints.

Do I want 'hardcore' military troops working the border? I don't know what the difference is between 'hardcore' troops and the regular kind. I guess special forces? We probably don't need special forces on the border. But regular troops trained as peacekeepers and military policemen should be just fine. As far as I know, most countries have armed men who patrol the borders. We are not speaking of introducing a new element, but rather reinforcing an existing element to make it effective AND saving money in the process. (It's cheaper to deploy our boys at home than abroad.)

As for the country being a prison... I think it already is? If I don't have the necessary paperwork, I can't go anywhere else. I'm not sure what negative impact there would be if we switched the border strategy from, "Only effective against Anthony and like-minded law-abiding souls" to "effective against everyone." ;-)

As long as the military is doing their thing at the border and not within it, I feel very sanguine about bringing them here to do what they're for. (protecting the nation.)

And no jokes about how sanguine also means bloody. :-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, May 14, 2010 9:05 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh, I see.

Here's all three.
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33
&Itemid=74&jumival=555


It was with the second part that I had issues with the guy, mind you, cause if you're gonna stand against it, you shouldn't pussyfoot around.

I mean, he has his reasons, not the least of which being if he DOES admit anthing he opens the door to them prosecuting him in an attempt to shut him up, and he's struggling against his own upbringing and training, but he comes off less credible for it, and I think when you start bringing a hammer like this down, you really, really need to be - if you're willing to die for your country, then you ought to be willing to risk charges, a blown career, and ignomity and insults, but that mindset, where it's easier to die than face up to things, that's always been a problem.

Maybe I am being harsh, but remember, I blew my own career on one of those stupid little questions on the twentynine palms survey, told them in NO uncertain terms how it was gonna be about things like that, but I do realize not everyone is as a crackbrained as I was - and I was far worse off than this poor sodder, since between Basic and Advanced training, I lost my family, my home and everything that ever mattered to me and came out of it a bitter nihilist who wanted to kill EVERYBODY.
I got better, and I hope this guy does too.


In answer to your question, Anthony ?
No.
It's possible to get them to defend themselves and their home, but go overseas and slaughter folks not much different than them, who never did em no harm personally ?
Not a bloody chance - sane people aren't like that, you have to MAKE them insane first, break their humanity, warp thier minds, and to do it, you need a Government.

Most of the worst atrocities of history were done with the official sanction of one, do not forget.


And Mikey also nails a sailent point, much like spy programs, and the ADS pain beam, and all that other shit the powers that be come up with "to protect us" - who ALWAYS, ALWAYS winds up staring down the barrel of it, every single bloody time ?

We do.

You'd think we'd learn from that, wouldn't you ?

-Frem

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Friday, May 14, 2010 9:08 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Why do we have to have such a massive military in the first place?"

Hello,

On this aspect- I agree. Our military is too large and too expensive. One U.S. aircraft carrier group could probably obtain air superiority over any of our likely foes, sink their ships, and halt the movement of their armies.

If we surrender our role as 'the world's policemen' and satisfy ourselves with actual defense of our country, we could probably cut our military in half.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, May 14, 2010 9:09 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"I concur. You can lose a quark you don't girth."

Hello,

Huh?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, May 14, 2010 9:30 AM

DREAMTROVE


We all know you can lose a quark if you don't girth, but I don't know who that yahoo was who said it. I have no idea. As I said iPad. It has a mind of its own, and I don't know whaf I meant to say. It did crack me up to see it though :)

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Friday, May 14, 2010 12:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Anthony - You make some decent points, but I don't think it's quite that easy to just put troops on the border. Posse Comitatus specifically prevents armed forces from being used for law-enforcement purposes on non-federal land (non-federal meaning state, county, or municipal land, or privately-owned land).

And yes, I'm familiar with these "inland checkpoints" - we have them in Texas as well, usually around 30 miles or so stateside of the Mexican border.

Again, they are not manned by military personnel. They are staffed by law enforcement (sheriffs, state troopers, border patrol, ICE, etc.). Frem can probably cite for you chapter and verse about why you don't send soldiers to do police work.

Now, there ARE ways to station troops on the border and have them protect the U.S. with all available force. But you'll have to declare Mexico a threat to national security and a clear and present danger, and in effect basically declare war on that nation. Or you can pass a law nullifying Posse Comitatus; I'm sure the libertarians, righties, and tea partiers would offer their full support of Obama doing just such a thing. ;)

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm really not comfortable with the idea that the solution to illegal immigration (a very miniscule problem in the overall scheme of things in this nation) is to have our military be in charge of overseeing immigration enforcement. I cringe at the idea of deuce-and-a-halfs rolling into my mixed-race neighborhood and disgorging hordes of armed soldiers tasked with the job of going door to door and checking everyone's papers. Maybe that's paranoid and hyperbolic, but it's a lot closer to the reality of the situation than any ridiculous so-called "death panels" ever were in the healthcare reform debate.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, May 14, 2010 1:13 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony: I don't know, but I'd like to find out.

Frem: You sure that isn't the fruit checkpoint? I know those exist, but they're certainly not "Checkpoint Charlie" and as far as I know, they're checking for contraband fruit that carries bugs and diseases. Most places, you're not allowed to bring fruit across borders, either, like coming in by plane.

If you're sure it's something else, then yes, I would be alarmed, because I've never run across such a thing coming home from another state.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 14, 2010 1:19 PM

DREAMTROVE


I'm sorry, mexiphobia eludes me. I mean, there are countries on Africa where the immigrants at the gate cut themselves and bind cocaine into their wounds so they can stay active in spite of their aids, so they can stay awake to rape the locals, dismember them, and eat them.

. Mexicans are coming to the us to look for jobs. They're untracked by big brother, there's no reason,,, oh

Unless big brother thinks that it has hit a hot button issue that would convince the libertarian right that it actually does need govt overall, okay, the picture suddenly got darker. I don't mean iPad.. Actually the ipad has been an ace. There are a few quirks, but I think I'll write the code to fix those myself, maybe make a profit on it. Little snag, it doesn't play video, not well anyway, no flash player. Browser has some speed and navigation issues, but thats software. Overall, I think it's quite good, and with list work it can be most excellent. At the moment, just bout aeverything is faster on a net book, but reading stuff on the ipad is great, if you don't read too long. I think for a Book reader, probably kindle wins. No dancing eyeballs.


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Friday, May 14, 2010 3:43 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Frem: You sure that isn't the fruit checkpoint? I know those exist, but they're certainly not "Checkpoint Charlie" and as far as I know, they're checking for contraband fruit that carries bugs and diseases. Most places, you're not allowed to bring fruit across borders, either, like coming in by plane.


Actually that was Anthony who mentioned that, so I wouldn't know - one thing I do know is that the so-called security (more like security theatre!) down at the airport is full of folks I wouldn't trust to wash a car, and due to the nonstop shakedown commercial aviation is gonna strangle, even if the Gov keeps bailing them out, the small charter and contract pilots are busy as little bees these days.

I *have* run into some "sobriety" and "seatbelt" checkpoints around here, but none recently thanks to some wrangling over their legality, and I will at any chance evade them cause the difference between a street gang shakedown and a "seatbelt" checkpoint ?
Jack shit, in my eyes.

Remember, we're on the brink of an all out war on our own police forces here, stuff like that doesn't happen in a vaccuum.

I've also hit a couple interstate checkpoints on the road, one supposedly checking for illegal fireworks, and one supposedly checking sobriety, the first was at the Ohio line, the second on the border of Maryland and Pennsylvania, Maryland side.

Now, so long as you do not make an illegal traffic move, technically it's legal to evade them, but most cops couldn't tell a legal U-turn from an illegal one if they tried, and of course consider the attempt to avoid being hassled as "probable cause" to chase you down and hassle you worse - much in the same fashion that they consider refusing a search to be probable cause for one, or resisting arrest to be sufficient grounds for arrest...

I think they're mad, anyone who would voluntarily subject themselves to a culture so evil it poisons all it touches must be.

-Frem

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Friday, May 14, 2010 3:57 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Remember, we're on the brink of an all out war on our own police forces here, stuff like that doesn't happen in a vacuum.


SHHHHH, we're not supposed to reveal stuff like that, Frem. We might upset the women!


The laughing Chrisisall


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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:02 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I don't travel to California, so I can't speak from experience as to what exactly these people are looking for. Fruit? Bugs? Seriously? Can't bugs walk or fly across the border between Arizona and California? Can't seeds blow or be carried by birds? Do we really have fruit checkpoints between the states of our union?

Anyhow, there's armed men, there's dogs, and there's people searching your vehicle without permission. All this, when travelling within your own country. Seems pretty cinema-fascist to me.


" don't know about the rest of you, but I'm really not comfortable with the idea that the solution to illegal immigration (a very miniscule problem in the overall scheme of things in this nation) is to have our military be in charge of overseeing immigration enforcement. I cringe at the idea of deuce-and-a-halfs rolling into my mixed-race neighborhood and disgorging hordes of armed soldiers tasked with the job of going door to door and checking everyone's papers."

I do not advocate the military for inside-the-country law enforcement. But I do advocate them for border defense. And I think military is allowed and perhaps even mandated to patrol and protect the borders of the nation, within current law.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:11 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Is it possible to get a group of people together and convince them to wage a war effectively without an indoctrination and programming process?


Yes.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:30 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Chris,

How?

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:41 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

How?



Truth.

Oh, but that won't work in a BS situation....


The laughing Chrisisall


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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:47 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Given the difficulty in getting the average human to go to a foreign land and murder people, I'm not sure that truth will do the job.

Humans aren't built to wage war. Or, most of them aren't. Some kind of reprogramming seems fundamental to the process.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 14, 2010 4:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Unless big brother thinks that it has hit a hot button issue that would convince the libertarian right that it actually does need govt overall, okay, the picture suddenly got darker.




Congratulations. You noticed. And who is it who's yelling the loudest that we need the giant, evil, over-arching government to look after us and keep us all safe? Why, it's the tea partiers, the libertarians, and the so-called "conservatives". While they were all looking one way (health care reform), the set up was on, only on another hot-button issue that TPTB *KNEW* would send them all screaming to the big bad gubmint for salvation: immigration.

Expect more "terror" attacks soon, just to make sure that everyone else truly flocks to their feudal lords to keep them safe and warm. Welcome to the future. It's 1984.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, May 14, 2010 5:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I don't travel to California, so I can't speak from experience as to what exactly these people are looking for. Fruit? Bugs? Seriously? Can't bugs walk or fly across the border between Arizona and California? Can't seeds blow or be carried by birds? Do we really have fruit checkpoints between the states of our union?

Anyhow, there's armed men, there's dogs, and there's people searching your vehicle without permission. All this, when travelling within your own country. Seems pretty cinema-fascist to me.



Which really makes me wonder why anyone wants to expand such programs.

As I said, they have them here in Texas, too. Even in South Texas, where the nearest other state is more than 400 miles away. So it's not about transferring bugs or fruit between states or across state lines.

Quote:


" don't know about the rest of you, but I'm really not comfortable with the idea that the solution to illegal immigration (a very miniscule problem in the overall scheme of things in this nation) is to have our military be in charge of overseeing immigration enforcement. I cringe at the idea of deuce-and-a-halfs rolling into my mixed-race neighborhood and disgorging hordes of armed soldiers tasked with the job of going door to door and checking everyone's papers."

I do not advocate the military for inside-the-country law enforcement. But I do advocate them for border defense. And I think military is allowed and perhaps even mandated to patrol and protect the borders of the nation, within current law.



I'm curious how the military patrols the borders without being inside the country, while also not invading another sovereign country.

I don't advocate the military for border defense, unless we're under military invasion from a hostile foreign nation. Are we? And if we are, shouldn't Congress be forced to declare war? I don't care for the way we've been doing things when it comes to using our military. Everyone wants to abdicate their responsibility, Congress wants to let others decide, and then doesn't want to deal with the mess that creates when others decide wrongly.

If there's a full-blown crisis, let's declare war and get on with it. If there's not, let's quit trying to conflate this bullshit into something bigger and more important than it truly is.

If you want "border defense", and you want the military to do it, prepare for casualties, many of them mistakes, innocents, and friendly-fire incidents. And don't complain when they happen.

One of the things that sickened me about the WikiLeaks video that got posted was all the people whining about how terrible it was that these things happened. That's war. Hell, that wasn't even UGLY war; that was about as clean and civilized as it gets. War is horror. War is the absence of all reason and rationality.

If that's what you want for Arizona, I feel for you.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Friday, May 14, 2010 5:27 PM

DMAANLILEILTT


in the immortal and apt words of Edwin Starr:

"War! Hyah, Yeah! What is it good for?! Absolutly nuthin'! Say it again!"

and if you think that's kind of silly, someone not unlike Confucius once said:

"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, you must first dig two graves."

think about it.

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Friday, May 14, 2010 5:49 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

First: the military does its own indoctrination and the President has nothing to do with that.

Second: This was in 2007, so if you want to put it that way, it HAS TO BE "BUSH trains soldiers..."



AllCIAduh Dictator Hussein Obama Bin Laden orders execution of POWs in Afghanistan:



Gotta protect the CIA's opium farms.

White House controls both Pentagon and CIA.

I dare say 90% of Amerikan sheeple would have zero hesitation to personally sign the orders to kill 1-million innocent souls, if that was the price to pay to live in the White House.

Obama was already a serial-killing mass-murdering terrorist in his birth nation of British Kenya before he was selected as "president". And if you donated to his campaign or voted for him, then you're a mass-murderering terrorist too.
www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGIC_en___US351&ei=UxzuS9-DKMX6lwfA
oIS1CA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CBEQBSgA&q=obama+odinga+and+kenya+churches&spell=1











Obama Inaugeral Slaughter Sacrifice in Kenya


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Friday, May 14, 2010 5:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
SHHHHH, we're not supposed to reveal stuff like that, Frem. We might upset the women!


I take it you've not read Kipling.
"When the women come out to cut up your remains..."

Seriously though, I've been detailing the slide into chaos in this thread.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=42970

The locals have actually started for-real, no-bullshit, sniping at the damn cops, who have in some cases returned fire without reporting it.

I know of one wounded officer so far, which was, discretely, covered by the local news.

We're *THAT* close to a major riot, here.

-Frem

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Friday, May 14, 2010 9:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"If you want "border defense", and you want the military to do it, prepare for casualties, many of them mistakes, innocents, and friendly-fire incidents. And don't complain when they happen."

Hello,

My goodness! Don't complain when they happen? Of course you complain when this happens. I'd complain just as loud if it was law enforcement people doing it (which they do.) You ALWAYS complain when this happens. Universally. Regardless of the circumstances.

War is hell, and I don't really want any of the wars we've got. But I'm not advocating a war on Mexico or any other nation, either.

I'm saying that all the people we're paying to sit on foreign soil can sit on the border instead. And they can even be polite about it. (I'd insist.)

Of course sitting on the border (just inside our side) puts them inside of the US, just like about a bajillion (rough estimate) military bases all over the country. I'm not advocating them taking up Law Enforcement within the civilian population. Just setting up shop along the outskirts and politely sending folks back the other way if they don't belong.

If our current military can't manage it, we can start building a military who can.

Someone wanted a plan that doesn't cost money? This is it. It's cheaper for them to sit on our soil than someone else's. And rather than sit 'em on their asses on a hundred military bases distrubuted throughout the U.S., they can sit on their asses on the near side of the border, with regular rotation out to visit with their families.

No War. No IED's. No Combat. It's really quite the better situation.

--Anthony





"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 3:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


That sounds an awful lot like "We'll be greeted as liberators".

It's a nice fantasy, but I don't think it deals very well with reality. Military isn't about "being nice". It's about barking orders and having them followed, or being shot. It's really what military is for.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not a fan of using the military as the go-to. I don't like the precedent it sets.

And I disagree that IF you put the military on our border, it doesn't cost a thing. Of course it costs. It will cost billions. Hundreds of billions, in fact. And I can just about guarantee you that we will NOT be scaling back operations around the globe. It's not the way the military-industrial complex works.

And the number one reason I don't want border patrol turned over to the U.S. military? Incrementalism. If it's okay for our military to do this in this area and to these people, it's only a matter of time before that role is expanded. Look at it like auto insurance laws. If you're old enough to remember when they were enacted, it went like this: (1) "Well, yes, we're mandating that you have to have your insurance, but we're only allowed to ask you for it if you've had an accident or been pulled over for some other violation." (2) "Sure, we're putting up insurance checkpoints, but only criminals would be concerned about such things." (3) "Yes, we're instituting a database and license plate scanner system that will tell us whether you're currently insured, but it's only for your own good." And of course, now you can't register a car, scrap a car, pass inspection, or buy or sell a car without providing your proof of insurance. Hell, you can't even renew your driver's license without it. None of which have anything to do with whether or not you're actually DRIVING.

So these are my concerns. I worry that we're proposing a hundred-billion dollar solution to a five buck crime. We can do better just by enforcing the laws we already have. And we can spend more on border patrol and immigration enforcement and STILL spend less than if we militarize the borders.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:10 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Of course it costs. It will cost billions. Hundreds of billions, in fact. And I can just about guarantee you that we will NOT be scaling back operations around the globe. It's not the way the military-industrial complex works. "

Hello,

We are talking about a proposal, yes? A proposal to strengthen borders without costing money? Well then, in my proposal I get to decide what the military does. It's my proposal. ;-)

In my proposal, we stop interventionism and world policing, and bring the boys home. And it's *obviously* cheaper to have them sitting at home than sitting abroad.

"I worry that we're proposing a hundred-billion dollar solution to a five buck crime. We can do better just by enforcing the laws we already have. And we can spend more on border patrol and immigration enforcement and STILL spend less than if we militarize the borders."

Nope, I'm proposing spending less on border patrol AND less on the military by moving the military from 'far, far away' to 'right over there.'

There's no reason for over 150k US troops to be parked on foreign territory. It's like you're telling me you'd rather have them in Germany than the US.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Anthony, I see where you're coming from; I just don't agree that we WOULD pull them from overseas. Instead, we'd keep them there AND try to add them here. It's what we do.

And yes, it's YOUR proposal, but like the President has found out, you can propose things all day long, and you might even have wonderful ideas and plans - but then you have to work with 535 members of Congress to hammer them out to reality. And what you end up with is usually a big steaming pile of three million yards of fresh poo, not the dozen roses you proposed.

I like that you're thinking about it, and I'm not trying to dismiss it out of hand or shoot down every idea, but I *AM* trying to play devil's advocate and look for the holes in the plans and the problem areas, hopefully BEFORE they come up.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Fair enough. But this:

"We can do better just by enforcing the laws we already have. And we can spend more on border patrol and immigration enforcement"

Scares me more than military folks. Because that means more federal police, and unlike the military, police can bother me no matter where I am. Legally.

And then they'll shoot my dog. ;-)

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 7:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Dmaan, I love it. I had thought of posting it myself a bit earlier. It was singing in my head as I read this thread.

But I REALLY love the Confusious thing, that hits home fer shore!

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't believe it's the military. Too much can go wrong.

As to the border between states checkpoints, we've had those since before I was born. Sure bugs can travel and so can seeds, but it's much easier for people to bring them in. Plus, remember people bring in fruit, etc., from places that GROW them, they don't just hop across the border. I have no problem with it; usually it entails someone asking "got an fruit or vegetables"?, it doesn't involve a search unless the dogs sniff something out which people didn't declare.

Agriculture is a BIG part of California economy. You can't do anything about bugs and disease spreading by themselves, so maybe this is one of the only ways they can think of to minimize it.

Ah, apparently it's mostly about the Medfly (Medeierranean Fruit Fly) which has given us quite a scare here and been devastating to some crops. Maybe over-reaction, I dunno, maybe the above.
Quote:

CA does not allow certain fruits and vegetables to be transported in due to the possibility of the fruit fly and other pests. They ask you about fruit at "bug" checkpoints when crossing the state line into CA.
Quote:

I live in Cali and have gone through the check point a few times... they mostly just check for fruit or suspicious cars. I've never had them ask any questions except, "where are you coming from" and "Are you bringing in any fruit".
That mirrors my experiences.

Ah, apparently it's other ones now, as
Quote:

Last August, the state declared victory in its latest campaign against the Mediterranean fruit fly, which had appeared in Los Angeles, Santa Clara and Solano counties.
Here's part of an explanation:
Quote:

The California Department of Food and Agriculture said that starting Saturday several thousand traps will be placed in 15 square miles of eastern Los Angeles County in the La Verne area, where seven of the flies were recently found in traps.

La Verne, in the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains, was a citrus-growing region in the early 20th century but is now a residential and college town.

The discovery of the white striped fruit fly opens the latest front in California's decades-long battles with non-native bugs that threaten its valuable agricultural products.

Earlier in July, the state detected a new infestation of the Oriental fruit fly in La Verne and began trapping for that pest. The state also only recently declared the Mexican fruit fly eradicated in nearby Azusa and lifted a 2008 quarantine on passage of fruits and vegetables.

The checkpoints come and go, depending on where this or that bug has been found, and then eradication programs follow, such as
Quote:

The eradication strategy is based on stopping the breeding cycle. The traps hung in trees will be laced with a bait to attract males and a small amount of pesticide to kill them.

Crews will also treat foliage within about 220 yards of each site where flies were found.

Here's more
Quote:

Olive fruit fly is the major insect pest of olive crops worldwide. It is in the insect family Tephritidae that contains many well know pests species such as the Mediterranean fruit fly. It has impacted olive production since biblical times. In some parts of the world, olive fruit fly is responsible for losses up to 80% of oil value and 100% of various cultivars used as table olives. California produces > 99% of the olives grown in the USA.
You can see why they get scared when these pests show up. Maybe that's an explanation for what the people in question experienced. (Sorry Anthony, I thought Frem posted it.)


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 7:18 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"it doesn't involve a search unless the dogs sniff something out which people didn't declare."

Hello,

Well, that's the thing about these dogs. They can't testify. They can't be interrogated.

They *can* be used as an excuse to search your stuff. I don't know what they were looking for, to be honest.

I do know they didn't find anything.

I also had the distinct impression that it wasn't a fruit fly checkpoint. I will inquire further with my coworker.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 7:24 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Just to add, it seems other people have reported similar checkpoints, non-fruit related:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/760911-internal-
us-highway-immigration-checkpoints.html


--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 7:37 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Some more sauce for the goose. This time, a government report.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05435.pdf

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, your links are regarding immigration checkpoints. I know those exist as well. Further from the link
Quote:

Yes they are there.

I have gone through them about 40 times over the last 15 years.

All in Texas on IH-10, IH-35 and US-59 and US-277.
I have even driven through with multiple foreign nationals. Sometimes the driver has been asked for ID sometimes all in the vehicle. Once a UK citizen with me was asked for a passport. But once I said I had three Italians with me and we were told to procede. Once I was a driving a vehicle with Belize license plates and had to show a registration. Other times I have been waived through with out stopping, just slowing down.

The second one also for immigration. Those I don't actually question; they are, to me, a valid way of stemming illegal immigration, as opposed to hassling people on the street.

But if not for fruit or immigration, I can't imagine any other reason. I'll be interested in what your friend has to say. I have no problem, personally, with a valid, visible checkpoint. While it can be abused, I think it much more likely excuses will be used in Arizona to harrass "potential illegals" beyond checkpoints. And everyone better be ready to travels to Arizona with proper paperwork. You never know.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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