South of the Border by dreamtrove

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'm not sure the 'war on drugs' is the problem cited by this article.

Rather, factors contributing to a problem seem to be

1) The consumption of drugs my the US
And
2) The ready availability of US firearms to criminals in Mexico.

I specify criminals, because in Mexico, it is difficult for the common man to have a legal firearm.

In both cases, an unprotected border seems to contribute to the problem. We are importing drugs and exporting weapons. This, a much more dangerous trade than importing immigrants. (And one rarely talked about, since it's our fault and can't be pinned on Mexico.)

So we either need to make the border less porous (unlikely), stop manufacturing and selling weapons in the US (unlikely), stop consuming drugs (unlikely) or convince the Mexican president to arm his entire citizenry (unlikely.)

We seem unlikely to resolve this problem.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Monday, May 17, 2010 4:29 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
2) The ready availability of US firearms to criminals in Mexico.

Not too sure that's correct. Per the article cited.

Quote:
The exact numbers and types of weapons the cartels posses are still unknown, but vast arrays have been confiscated including: AK-47 assault rifles, AR-15 semi-automatic rifles, fragmentation grenades, M4 Carbines with M203 grenade launchers, various .50 caliber rifles, machine guns and light anti-tank rockets. According to reports, 90 percent of all the firearms that could be traced came from the United States. Many of them were purchased legally.

You can't legally purchase M4 carbines with grenade launchers, fragmentation grenades, or anti-tank rockets in the U.S. Purchase of fully automatic weapons in the U.S. requires all sorts of Federal background checks. AK-47s are available anywhere in the world for a few hundred bucks. I'd wager that most of the arms the cartels have can't be traced to anywhere, so the "90 percent of all the firearms that could be traced came from the United States" quote is pretty much propaganda.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, May 17, 2010 5:24 PM

Geezer,

The key phrase there is "could be traced" but yes, though would term that spin. The choice of Iranian state news wasn't really a conscious one, they were the ones with the latest update on the story. Their spin, like our spin, is something I just tune out.

Anthony,

The situation has been going back a while, since 2006 but really fired up last year, about which the story is basically correct.

Here's the basic sequence of cause and effect related events

The US announces that as part of nafta, Mexico should join the US in the war on drugs. No one really thought the drugs came from Mexico, the strong suspicion was that they came primarily from Columbia, but there are Somme pharmaceutical companies in northern s. America and panama. Assume were talking about a lot of finished products here, by sea and by land.

Geographically, anything which comes by land has to go through Mexico, and because of nafta we have a special relationship with Mexico, if this had happened to an earlier generation, we would have selected panama for a similar reason.

The drug cartel response to police crackdowns was to start shooting back, and to get bigger guns. Geezer is undoubtedly right that most of these weapons quite likely came from elsewhere, china or Venezuela, or china by way of Venezuela, both of which are iranian allies, so yeah, they wouldn't want to point those fingers, especially if they were guessing when they did it. At anyrate, they've been buying the guns with the drug money which drives the need for more drug trafficking for the dealers.

Through drugs and arms laws authorities now potentially indict large gangs in the cartel. Remember, most of this drug traffic is through traffic, from south America to us.

The next step was for the drug cartels to take over the police force. This did not stop the fighting, because each trafficking ring had enemies not only in govt but in rival drug trafficking gangs. Police forces became the new military wings of the cartels.

Now were at a point where it's really hard to say who is actually a legitimate authority. Regional govts might claim that there force represents the wishes of the govt of mexico, but you can see how this develops,

The reason I bring this up now is that in 2006 the situation was not dissimilar to Detroit. Now the situation is not dissimilar to Iraq.

That there are some undocumented aliens in Arizona is not an issue, that theres a civil war in Mexico is. Of course, the two combined could make a problem, as the war could spread here.

Oh, and this a war of our making. Sure, there was a problem, but this was not a solution. Not to say that it's entirely our president's fault, but he and calderon haven't been helping the situation.

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Monday, May 17, 2010 5:35 PM

Ack double post

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Monday, May 17, 2010 5:35 PM

Oh no! Triple post!

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Monday, May 17, 2010 5:36 PM

Be nice and clean and use shaving cream.

Quadruple post.

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Monday, May 17, 2010 7:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Pffth, legalize drugs, but yeah, no one wants to talk about that.

And the idea of the cartels buying crippled, overpriced american crap for firepower is flat out ridiculous when the suppliers can just chuck a couple AKs in there on top of the product.

-F

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 1:15 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
2) The ready availability of US firearms to criminals in Mexico.

Not too sure that's correct. Per the article cited.
Quote:
The exact numbers and types of weapons the cartels posses are still unknown, but vast arrays have been confiscated including: AK-47 assault rifles, AR-15 semi-automatic rifles, fragmentation grenades, M4 Carbines with M203 grenade launchers, various .50 caliber rifles, machine guns and light anti-tank rockets. According to reports, 90 percent of all the firearms that could be traced came from the United States. Many of them were purchased legally.

You can't legally purchase M4 carbines with grenade launchers, fragmentation grenades, or anti-tank rockets in the U.S. Purchase of fully automatic weapons in the U.S. requires all sorts of Federal background checks. AK-47s are available anywhere in the world for a few hundred bucks. I'd wager that most of the arms the cartels have can't be traced to anywhere, so the "90 percent of all the firearms that could be traced came from the United States" quote is pretty much propaganda.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Thanks, Geezer - I've been trying to refute that myth for years now.

Although a good chunk of the fully-automatic, military-grade weaponry has indeed been coming from the U.S.;it's just that no one wants to address the HOW and WHERE of that issue. We're shipping truckloads of the stuff to the Federales and to the Mexican military, and *somehow* it seems to be ending up in the hands of the cartels we're supposed to be battling. Guess maybe they can buy it cheaper from their own police and military than they can from places like Venezuela and Colombia. Plus it's already in the country that way, so no need to try to smuggle it in when it's already been delivered to their door!

Here's the thing nobody wants to address: The guns aren't coming from legal U.S. sales or gunshows. They're coming from the U.S., but they're coming straight from our government.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 1:20 AM

Oh, and I did see a grenade launcher attachment for an M16/M4 for sale Saturday at the fun show - er, I mean GUN show. No grenades, though; that would be illegal. But you can get the launcher attachment. Not sure why anyone WOULD, but they're out there.

My buddy was searching for .223 blanks for his new AR that he just built up. He bought a golf ball launcher for it, which attaches to the end of the barrel and uses blanks to propel a golf ball downrange. I have no idea what the utility of such a thing is, unless he's planning on using it for nonlethal home defense. I kinda figure if I need to pull a gun on someone in my house, the time for bargaining has already passed...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:21 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Golf ball launchers, like potato launchers, are fun.

Just like guns in general, incidentally. Many the aluminum can, melon, and paper target has succumbed to my violent attentions.

Use them responsibly, but don't be afraid to enjoy the process.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:23 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Dream,

What WOULD solve the problem, in your opinion?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Golf ball launchers, like potato launchers, are fun.

Just like guns in general, incidentally. Many the aluminum can, melon, and paper target has succumbed to my violent attentions.

Use them responsibly, but don't be afraid to enjoy the process.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

Gotta agree with that. My buddy was looking for some stripped AR15 lowers. He just built up a brand new "off the books" AR15 with no records on it at all, from parts he bought legally and off the books. He put less than $600 into the built, total. We took it to the range Sunday, where it was putting every round in a 30-round magazine inside a 2" circle on open sights at 75 yds. I was quite impressed. My Saiga was quite jealous. :)

I was searching for a decent little something at the gun show, but didn't see anything that caught me eye. At least, nothing that wasn't hideously overpriced. This is an "alternative" gun show that was set up as a counterprotest against the Austin Police Department's unofficial "policy" at the longtime Saxet Gun Show, where APD started insisting that EVERYBODY selling or buying must go through the background check, and must pay for the privilege. I've no problem doing the background check, but if they're going to insist on it even for person-to-person private sellers, they really should offer the service for free.

So as a result, that show folded, at least here in Austin, and a new "under the radar" show was set up, where every booth has a sign that says "Private Sale: No background checks, No FFL fees, No paperwork!" Which creeps me out, to a degree. We immediately dubbed it "The Convicted Felons' Gun Show". And while I don't mind buying a gun with out a paper trail, I don't feel the need to pay $475 for a $150 Tokarev 7.62x25mm Soviet-era semi-auto handgun. I'm not a big fan of gouging, no matter how you spin it. :)

But hey, if I feel the need for a Walther .22 with a suppressor, I know where to get one...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:07 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Golf ball launchers, like potato launchers, are fun.

Just like guns in general, incidentally. Many the aluminum can, melon, and paper target has succumbed to my violent attentions.

Use them responsibly, but don't be afraid to enjoy the process.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

Gotta agree with that. My buddy was looking for some stripped AR15 lowers. He just built up a brand new "off the books" AR15 with no records on it at all, from parts he bought legally and off the books. He put less than $600 into the built, total. We took it to the range Sunday, where it was putting every round in a 30-round magazine inside a 2" circle on open sights at 75 yds. I was quite impressed. My Saiga was quite jealous. :)

I was searching for a decent little something at the gun show, but didn't see anything that caught me eye. At least, nothing that wasn't hideously overpriced. This is an "alternative" gun show that was set up as a counterprotest against the Austin Police Department's unofficial "policy" at the longtime Saxet Gun Show, where APD started insisting that EVERYBODY selling or buying must go through the background check, and must pay for the privilege. I've no problem doing the background check, but if they're going to insist on it even for person-to-person private sellers, they really should offer the service for free.

So as a result, that show folded, at least here in Austin, and a new "under the radar" show was set up, where every booth has a sign that says "Private Sale: No background checks, No FFL fees, No paperwork!" Which creeps me out, to a degree. We immediately dubbed it "The Convicted Felons' Gun Show". And while I don't mind buying a gun with out a paper trail, I don't feel the need to pay $475 for a $150 Tokarev 7.62x25mm Soviet-era semi-auto handgun. I'm not a big fan of gouging, no matter how you spin it. :)

But hey, if I feel the need for a Walther .22 with a suppressor, I know where to get one...

You think there's any connection with the thread subject and your under the radar gun show with no background checks?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:23 AM

Anthony,

Frem already said it. Legalize drugs, destroy the market value. Smugglers don't run rum up from Columbia, it's just not worth it, and it's not necessary. If coffee is more profitable than cocaine, you have solved the problem.

A whole host of the worlds problems come from artificial markets putting a hog value on something that doesn't really merit it, such as war, deforestation, etc. Up to and including poor economy fuels and bad healthcare.

We need a new govt branch called "Dept with a brain"

The current warlords need to be phased out, give them a better job as you destroy their market. They're pretty violent, make the prison guards or something. Ive noticed around here that drug trafficking does continue even though they would make more money farming, but that's because they're lazy, so the new options have to be something that just falls in their lap. But nothing kills a market like supply.

Someone did an experiment in the 80s trading cocaine futures. They found the market price of an oz of cocaine was about a buck fifty if you take away the legal barriers. Such an economy could exist, but it could never sustain the fifty middlemen required to get it to your door.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Oh, and I did see a grenade launcher attachment for an M16/M4 for sale Saturday at the fun show - er, I mean GUN show. No grenades, though; that would be illegal. But you can get the launcher attachment. Not sure why anyone WOULD, but they're out there.

That's a 37mm attachment, Mikey - whether they admitted it or not, and those are legal smoke/flare launchers, nor will they take or fire a 40mm grenade.

Been seein more of those around, and of course the occasional yahoo trying to pawn it off as a 40mm, or state that it's convertable to one.

They can be fun in their own right though, last 4th of July someone on a pontoon boat out in the lake was using white star clusters for fireworks, it was pretty impressive - I was doing rounds at site three and there were SO MANY fireworks (most of them not legal, but now MI is legalizing a lot of the ones that weren't) that there was this visible cloud of powder-smoke overlaying the place like a light fog for HOURS.

I was concerned about undetonated or misfired works landing on a roof and starting a fire, but thankfully that didn't happen, and a light mist of rain towards about 4am did a lot to allay those fears.

-F

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 8:24 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Some questions.

Given the taxes placed on cigarettes and liquor in some states, what kind of tax can we expect on legalized Cocaine? Once such a tax is applied, how much incentive is there for continued black marketing?

Also, if the legalization of cocaine does somehow dry up the incentive for high-powered crime in Mexico, what happens in a country where the entire legal infrastructure is infiltrated and tied to the drug trade?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 8:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

You think there's any connection with the thread subject and your under the radar gun show with no background checks?

Possibly, but it would be a tenuous connection at best.

1) There were more than a few feds and police in attendance. While they don't like it, they ARE rather powerless to stop it, and these are the folks who absolutely WILL push back, and the city really doesn't want to be embroiled in a protracted lawsuit that's going to cost them a fortune, and which they are going to lose anyway.

2) Believe it or not, there really weren't that many Hispanics in attendance. And the ones who were there were speaking English without any discernible accent. They *might* be illegals, out on a buying spree for the Mexican cartels, but they did a pretty good job of covering it up if they were.

3) If you want to put a stop to person-to-person sales, be my guest. Let's make it official, though, an apply it to everything. Adios eBay and Craigslist, because unregulated commerce might be occurring if you don't outlaw sites like that. No more want ads, and the only things you can buy must come from government-approved vendors and stores. Sound good? (By the way, I've already got all the legal precedent I need to do this: pharmacies are the only legal places to buy prescription drugs, and it's illegal to buy alcohol or tobacco from an unlicensed or unregulated seller, so we can apply those rules to ALL sales of everything, if you really want to go that route).

As has been pointed out, the illegals-at-the-gunshow ruse has been brought up again and again, and debunked just as often, yet it still keeps coming up. No matter what the "news" claims, you really can't buy machineguns at the gun show, and you can't buy rocket launchers or grenades, either. As Frem pointed out, you CAN buy a "grenade launcher", which is in reality nothing more than a flare gun attachment.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 8:53 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

You think there's any connection with the thread subject and your under the radar gun show with no background checks?

Possibly, but it would be a tenuous connection at best.

1) There were more than a few feds and police in attendance. While they don't like it, they ARE rather powerless to stop it, and these are the folks who absolutely WILL push back, and the city really doesn't want to be embroiled in a protracted lawsuit that's going to cost them a fortune, and which they are going to lose anyway.

2) Believe it or not, there really weren't that many Hispanics in attendance. And the ones who were there were speaking English without any discernible accent. They *might* be illegals, out on a buying spree for the Mexican cartels, but they did a pretty good job of covering it up if they were.

3) If you want to put a stop to person-to-person sales, be my guest. Let's make it official, though, an apply it to everything. Adios eBay and Craigslist, because unregulated commerce might be occurring if you don't outlaw sites like that. No more want ads, and the only things you can buy must come from government-approved vendors and stores. Sound good? (By the way, I've already got all the legal precedent I need to do this: pharmacies are the only legal places to buy prescription drugs, and it's illegal to buy alcohol or tobacco from an unlicensed or unregulated seller, so we can apply those rules to ALL sales of everything, if you really want to go that route).

As has been pointed out, the illegals-at-the-gunshow ruse has been brought up again and again, and debunked just as often, yet it still keeps coming up. No matter what the "news" claims, you really can't buy machineguns at the gun show, and you can't buy rocket launchers or grenades, either. As Frem pointed out, you CAN buy a "grenade launcher", which is in reality nothing more than a flare gun attachment.

"illegals-at-the-gunshow ruse"

That's not how I would think it would work for the very reasons you're pointing out. It wouldn't be illegals it would go betweens, mules, who are in strictly in it for the money. They could be any skin tone as long as they like green. The buyers have front men that do recon, scope out who's selling what and get a feeling for the seller. That's probably what the cops are doing too. I would think any gunhead would know if dealer #32 is selling X then they might also have access to Y. Then you make contact at a quieter, more opportune time. Just guessing of course.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 9:22 AM

Anthony

Tax would be a bad idea, it would give the govt a vested interest in the industry.

The other is a problem. Eventually that power structure would decay and be replaced. I don't know of a quick fix for Columbia itself. I suspect some program to support a more legit industry would help. Coffee, maybe. Sure, there's not as much money now in coffee as cocaine, but hats because they are only on the growing end. If they were in on the service industry like starbucks, they could make a serious go of it.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 9:33 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Tax would be a bad idea, it would give the govt a vested interest in the industry."

Hello,

There is no realistic way to envision the legalization of drugs without also envisioning a tax on those drugs. You'd have to create a fairy-tale world from scratch.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 9:43 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
3) If you want to put a stop to person-to-person sales, be my guest. Let's make it official, though, an apply it to everything. Adios eBay and Craigslist, because unregulated commerce might be occurring if you don't outlaw sites like that. No more want ads, and the only things you can buy must come from government-approved vendors and stores. Sound good? (By the way, I've already got all the legal precedent I need to do this: pharmacies are the only legal places to buy prescription drugs, and it's illegal to buy alcohol or tobacco from an unlicensed or unregulated seller, so we can apply those rules to ALL sales of everything, if you really want to go that route).

Kind of a strawman, and I also point out that the above goods are potentially hazardous for consumption, which is the argument supposedly for regulating them.

In general, I agree, though, I don't see much point in this. No matter what you try to sell or regulate, it's still going to get sold SOMEHOW, and eventually it can end up in the wrong hands, that is if the buyers/sellers don't find a work-around in the first place. Really, the argument for regulation is just an excuse to price gouge.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 12:51 PM

I thought it was more of a slippery slope argument than a strawman. :)

And some would argue that firearms are a hazardous material, too, which should probably be regulated. Just sayin'.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:03 PM

Anthony

No you wouldn't. Lots of things don't have there specific tax. As mike pointed out, theres a huge drug legal drug market already. Alcohol and tobacco are exception. One could look into why that is, but I think there are ample foreign countries where this has been done already.

I'm actually quite anti drug, but we had this whole argument out before right here on FFF, and I lost that argument, I concede the point, legalization is the best way to kill it, but it would be tricky to keep special interests out.

Not taxing it would be the easy way to keep govt interest out, also, no govt contracts.

Keepinnnng corporate interests out would be trickier

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:58 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Dream,

I think that you have forgotten that the only way it has traditionally been possible to legalize 'sin' in this country has been through the creation of a 'tax' as a bribe for the pleasure. Alcohol and Tobacco are thus taxed. The Lottery pledges money to the state. Etc. The only way to get anyone to overlook the presumed horrible societal impact of legalized drugs is to promise a nice fat tax that will pay for whatever it is you want. You will note that the current cry in California is, "Legalize marijuana, so we can tax it!"

Lots of things don't have a specific tax, but recreational drugs (tobacco, alcohol) are not amongst them. I expect marijuana to be legalized and taxed, and it isn't even particularly harmful. Something like Cocaine? It'll be taxed up the wazoo. Else the broad masses would never even consider legalizing it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 4:32 PM

Anthony,

You may have a point on mj, I can see the cigarette companies swooping in to pick up the slack on their dying tobacco empire. It's probably the largest problem drug.

On cocaine I disagree. There's no tax on rx coke now, and none on other legal alkaloids. I imagine if leagal it would just become easy rx rather than a shelf product not because it's a drug, but because it's toxic, you don't want random kids taking tons of the stuff.

But I don't think that sin is the reason there's taxation. Alcohol and tobacco were major industries very early in this country's political history, and were intimately interconnected with the machine. Taxation is in large part political. Sure, this is a danger with drug money in politics, but it's nowhere new as much of a danger as an increasing amount of drug money in politics. Also, note that porn did not spring a giant tax engine when it was legalized, in spite of the sin, and caffeine did not get taxed in spite of it's drug nature.

The worst threat to me would seem to be none of these, but more than corporations would interfere in a couple fo notable ways: 1 they would lace the drugs with chemicals to increase the power, addiction, and shelf life, and 2 they might sneak it into normal foods, to give a high to some other product. This could produce a very insane society. So I prefer a much more controlled legalization, where anyone can sign up to be a junky and sign themselves into sommmme govt facility, and walk in and pick up their cocaine as they now do to collect their Xanax.

And sure, there would be a small handful who would not do that, and would seek it on the street, but they would not collectively be a market, the price would have been effectively destroyed.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010 4:43 PM