[quote]Outraged at the proposed building of a 9/11 Anti-Memorial Mosque right near Ground Zero, radio host and [u]Tea Party Express chairman[/u] Mark Wil..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Tea Party isn't racist, no indeed...

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Saturday, June 5, 2010 14:12
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8157
PAGE 3 of 6

Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The Tea Party doesn't align itself with any party in power. Nor any "ism"
For the most part not officially, no. But the facts are
Quote:

Although the alleged "patriot" group called by some the Tea Party movement and by others "tea baggers" or "tea bag protesters" (and blamed for much from both sides) has been portrayed as a group of rugged nonpartisan individuals, new polling data suggests this is no new independent political movement, but largely part of the GOP.

Approximately three-quarters of those who identify themselves as members of the tea party national movement are either registered Republicans or lean toward the GOP.

A whopping 77 percent of them voted for John McCain in the November 2008 presidential elections, says the new poll conducted by Quinnipiac University, Conn.
Quote:

The Tea Party movement is mostly made up of people who consider themselves Republicans," Pete A. Brown, assistant director of the university`s Polling Institute, said in a statement. "They are less educated but more interested in politics than the average Joe and Jane Six-Pack and are not in a traditional sense swing voters
While only 33 percent of voters nation wide have a favorable opinion of Sarah Palin, 72 percent of tea party members are impressed by her, setting them outside the norm. Eighty-eight percent of those polled said if their congressional election were held today, they`d vote for the Republican candidate and 88 percent of the tea partiers are White.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/tea-party-republican-party-new-polling-
data-shows
Quote:

A poll conducted by the New York Times and CBS News reveals those said to be affiliated with what has come to be known as the Tea Party Movement are majority White, older, male, educated and Republican or Republican.

What are considered more controversial beliefs within the Tea Party, like those who believe the President was not born in the United States, are usually double the percentage of individuals not identifying as Tea Party members.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/cbs-nytimes-poll-older-white-male-repub
licans-tea-party
Quote:


A new survey suggests that Americans drawn to the Tea Party movement are largely white, Republican voters who are in many ways similar to the overall voting population but disproportionately dissatisfied with the direction of the country.

Quinnipiac University’s nationwide poll of 1,907 registered voters, conducted March 16-21 in the days leading up to final passage of President Obama’s contentious health care overhaul, validates many assumptions about the budding small-government protest movement. It also reinforces uncertainties about what impact tea partiers may have in the November elections.

The poll found:

*88 percent of those who identify with the movement are white; 15 percent of whites and 7 percent of blacks identified with the movement.

*92 percent who identify with the movement are dissatisfied with the way things are going in the country, compared with 70 percent overall; 83 percent in the movement feel the government is involved in too much.

*One in five white Evangelicals identifies with the movement, while 11 percent of college graduates do. Tea partiers appeared to be slightly older than most registered voters and have less formal education.

*82 percent of tea partiers say if their congressional election was today, they’d vote for the Republican candidate in their district over a Democratic candidate. Overall, registered voters were divided.

*72 percent of tea partiers have a favorable impression of Sarah Palin, higher than Republican voters and more than twice as high as all registered voters. In the 2008 presidential election, only 15 percent of tea partiers voted for President Obama.

http://blogs.mcclatchydc.com/washington/2010/03/poll-yields-new-detail
s-about-tea-party-movement.html


So let's step back into the real world, shall we? Tea Partiers are Conservatives and most closely aligned with Republicans, if not actual Republicans. You and they can SAY whatever you want, but the truth is the truth.

As for anyone here ruling anyone else's morals, that's assinine and very predictably you:
Quote:

I just would rather you do less projecting onto others and try comprehending more



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 4:39 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"If you are not racist, you may want to spend some time deeply thinking about what you say before you say it. You are putting off the wrong signals. Misunderstandings do happen, but you tend to say these things with such regularity and predictability that you can't blame people for taking it the wrong way.

If, indeed, it is the wrong way."

Well, the problem is that I am willing to delve into the underlying heart of issues.

For example:

Is the illegitimacy rate of blacks the cause for their problems? If so, or even if its a contributing factor, WHO has taught them to be this way and WHY?

Hint: If you want to cause a certain section of society to never be able to better themselves, here is what you do.

Make sure their families are completely dysfunctional, enslave them with handouts, dull them with drugs, make them believe they are powerless, control their access to weapons of defense, and then give them someone outside of themselves to blame.

On top of this, grant some of said population access to the higher end of things. In this way, you can completely isolate yourself from the charges laid against you. Name it something affirmative, and action oriented.

Now... who has done that the most? And why?


You can't fix a problem, unless you are willing to be honest about what the problem is.



You are correct. However, I will take it one step further.....Blacks are not as intelligent as whites. That is the bottom line. Go to any reputable science journal and look it up. The people who do the studies bury the results believing the data will be used for racist reasons.
There are differences between blacks and whites. If you ignore this fact, in a post about racism, you are being disingenuous.

Blacks are not as intelligent or inventive.

See, Nowhere on earth has a black society evolved beyond savagery...Even though they have been on earth the longest. Rape in Haiti is rampant(settled the same time as the U.S), genocide all over Africa(not just the Hutu), and they can't seem to figure out how to make a dwelling out of any other materials besides mud and cardboard.

The reason for this is they can't rationalize like whites....Ever really listen to blacks? They just don't get it. They can't think through problems. I just don't think their brains continued evolving along with the races that came later. I think the proof is right before our eyes.

Truth is truth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 4:47 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"I just don't think"

Hello,

I have to agree with you.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 5:07 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"You are correct. However, I will take it one step further.....Blacks are not as intelligent as whites. That is the bottom line. Go to any reputable science journal and look it up. The people who do the studies bury the results believing the data will be used for racist reasons.
There are differences between blacks and whites. If you ignore this fact, in a post about racism, you are being disingenuous.

Blacks are not as intelligent or inventive.

See, Nowhere on earth has a black society evolved beyond savagery...Even though they have been on earth the longest. Rape in Haiti is rampant(settled the same time as the U.S), genocide all over Africa(not just the Hutu), and they can't seem to figure out how to make a dwelling out of any other materials besides mud and cardboard.

The reason for this is they can't rationalize like whites....Ever really listen to blacks? They just don't get it. They can't think through problems. I just don't think their brains continued evolving along with the races that came later. I think the proof is right before our eyes.

Truth is truth"

Ooof.

Ok


1. "Blacks are not as intelligent as whites."

It has been my experience that in a lot of cases this has been true. However, I'm not going to make that wide of an assumption.

If you raise someone in a good home, teach them to love to learn and how to be a good citizen... I think they will turn out alright.

The problem is, in most black communities, this does not happen. Single parent homes, raising children from multiple fathers, with a hand-out mentality and the idea that studying is acting "white", will NOT produce intelligent, strong citizens.

2. "See, Nowhere on earth has a black society evolved beyond savagery...Even though they have been on earth the longest. Rape in Haiti is rampant(settled the same time as the U.S), genocide all over Africa(not just the Hutu), and they can't seem to figure out how to make a dwelling out of any other materials besides mud and cardboard."

Haiti IS a sh*thole. Part of it is the culture, part of it is the land they live on, part of it is that they were ruled by the French (j/k :).

But I see your point.

Again tho, there are long histories in these nations that may have prevented them from growing beyond what they are.

3. "The reason for this is they can't rationalize like whites....Ever really listen to blacks? They just don't get it. They can't think through problems. I just don't think their brains continued evolving along with the races that came later. I think the proof is right before our eyes. "

Yes I have. Again, tho, I don't want to frame it as a lost cause. Many of the blacks Ive known have NOT been able to logically think through things. However, I will grant that when you are in a society and culture that is rampantly violent, horrifically self-destructive... you may become this way.

In many cases, I would argue that these folks suffer from severe cases of PTSD. From childhood onward, they are constantly bombarded with trauma and horror.

To put it another way, if you lived in a violent, base society, where every waking moment is colored by violence, stupidity, horror ect...(or the threat of it happening again) you too might become less logical and more prone to gut-base instinct.

My argument is simply that, while trying to "fix" the problem, people are making it worse.

It is up to the society/culture ITSELF to solve these problems. Noone can do it for them.











NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 5:17 AM

KANEMAN


I see your point. However, even taking in the "culture factor" there is still a gap that can't be explained. I say it can be explained. Why we are so afraid to recognize the difference and call it for what it is...intellectual superiority.. amazes me.

I understand that reality doesn't always coincide to what people want the truth to be...So, don't be mad at me. Be mad at god or evolutionary mechanisms...Not me I didn't do this to humanity.....Well, it's true.......

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 5:24 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I see your point. However, even taking in the "culture factor" there is still a gap that can't be explained. I say it can be explained. Why we are so afraid to recognize the difference and call it for what it is...intellectual superiority.. amazes me."

There may be a gap, but how about this?

The only way to prove it, scientifically, is to take babies, and raise them exactly the same way.

1 white, 1 black. Raise them apart from society, with parents of their own race, and give them both the exact same upbringing/schooling ect.

It can't be done of course, because the nature of the experiement would inevitably skew the results.

Isolation and those conducting the experiement would inevitably color the results ect.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 5:34 AM

KANEMAN


Read the part about mixed races..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 5:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I am trying to work past the shocking nature of what is being discussed.

In brief:

"The only way to prove it, scientifically, is to take babies, and raise them exactly the same way.
1 white, 1 black."

This sampling shows that an understanding of scientific testing procedure has escaped you. Such a sampling is incapable of proving or even suggesting anything.

"Isolation and those conducting the experiement would inevitably color the results ect."

Isolation is, ironically, exactly what you are trying to achieve. Isolation and homogeneity of circumstances is what the test would be about. In fact, isolation and a lack of homogeneous conditions is at the heart of everything being discussed about race here.

"those conducting the experiement would inevitably color the results"

Yes. And those interpreting it. I never cease to be amazed how someone can look at a data-set and come to unsubstantiated conclusions.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 5:45 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I'm still reading it, but I skipped to the end, and found this which is very apropriate.

"In response to criticism that their conclusions would have a negative effect on society if they were to gain wide acceptance, Jensen and Rushton have justified their research in this area as being necessary to answer the question of how much racism should be held responsible for ethnic groups' unequal performance in certain areas. They maintain that when racism is blamed for disparities that result from biological differences, the result is mutual resentment, and unjustified punishment of the more successful group. They state:

[T]he view that one segment of the population is largely to blame for the problems of another segment can be even more harmful to racial harmony, by first producing demands for compensation and thereby inviting a backlash. Equating group disparities in success with racism on the part of the more successful group guarantees mutual resentment. As overt discrimination fades, still large racial disparities in success lead Blacks to conclude that racism is not only pervasive but also insidious because it is so unobservable and "unconscious." Whites resent that nonfalsifiable accusation and the demands to compensate blacks for harm they do not believe they caused."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 5:47 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Anthony:

I mean societal isolation. Boy-in-the-bubble kind of thing. Where being isolated from interaction outside of the deignated parents would cause emotional/mental problems.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 5:48 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I am trying to work past the shocking nature of what is being discussed.

In brief:

"The only way to prove it, scientifically, is to take babies, and raise them exactly the same way.
1 white, 1 black."

This sampling shows that an understanding of scientific testing procedure has escaped you. Such a sampling is incapable of proving or even suggesting anything.

"Isolation and those conducting the experiement would inevitably color the results ect."

Isolation is, ironically, exactly what you are trying to achieve. Isolation and homogeneity of circumstances is what the test would be about. In fact, isolation and a lack of homogeneous conditions is at the heart of everything being discussed about race here.

"those conducting the experiement would inevitably color the results"

Yes. And those interpreting it. I never cease to be amazed how someone can look at a data-set and come to unsubstantiated conclusions.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad




Wrong. The data is enormous. There is no debate. Sorry you don't like the findings...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

Read the data. Not just here any sci journal...
There is no other explanation for the huge gap.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 5:52 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I am trying to work past the shocking nature of what is being discussed."

Good, these things SHOULD be discussed. Sorted through and figured out.

Its only when we stick our heads in the sand and refuse to talk/discuss/look at problems

that they are never solved.

ETA: Yes, I do realize that many things can be explained by beeing poor. However, if this is the case, whats the solution?

You can't throw money at the problem, and have it be solved. If that were true, we could dump millions of dollars from the skies over certain areas, and they would turn into paradises.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 6:23 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"You can't throw money at the problem, and have it be solved."

Hello,

If by 'money' you mean 'resources', and if by 'throw' you mean 'carefully apply for the best effect' then yes, you can.

But just like you don't spray your antibiotics into the atmosphere to cure avian flu, your dollars should be wisely invested for optimal result.

Thus far, your suggestion has been to stop all attempts to render assistance, leaving the people involved to sink or swim in a Darwinian race for improvement.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 6:25 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Wrong. The data is enormous. There is no debate. Sorry you don't like the findings..."

Hello,

You are confusing data with the conclusions that can be drawn from that data.

Information is like bricks. There is no assurance that you will build anything worthwhile with it. And in fact, I don't think you have.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 6:28 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Anthony:

"If by money you mean resources, and if by 'throw' you mean 'carefully apply for the best effect' then yes, you can. "

Well, this idea you promote has been in use for the last 50 years, with no discernable positive results. In fact, one could argue that the opposite has been true.

I'm not really promoting a Darwin-like, TerrorDome, nuke-the-site-from-orbit strategy... just pointing out that throwing money at it hasn't worked, so its time for another solution, and that solution must also involve (like 90% involve) the culture/society doing most of the work themselves.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 6:33 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Wrong. The data is enormous. There is no debate. Sorry you don't like the findings..."

Hello,

You are confusing data with the conclusions that can be drawn from that data.

Information is like bricks. There is no assurance that you will build anything worthwhile with it. And in fact, I don't think you have.

--Anthony



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad



I'm not the one building anything AntonyT. It's not my data or my conclusions. You go take the data and interpret it anyway you'd like. Me, I'm going with the scientists conclusions...

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 6:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Almost amusing to watch two racists patting each other on the back, isn't it? Almost...

At least it informs as to where you two stand, which is worth remembering. Kane is an out-and-out racist, needing to find "facts" to back up his preconceptions. Wulf is a subconscious racist, firm in his beliefs of the superiority of the White Man, but finding EXCUSES for it...strangely, exactly what he accuses libs of doing. It's still racism in both cases.

As to Kane's quote from Wikipedia; anyone can post to Wikipedia, and if you look at the very beginning of that article, it shows an unbalanced scale and a red exclamation point, and says
Quote:

The neutrality of this article is questioned because of systemic bias. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the issue is resolved.

This article's factual accuracy is disputed. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page.

I reject your one piece of "proof".

Haiti is irrelevant. By utilizing that example, you should your desire to prove your agenda; the Dominican Republic is the other half of the island and also Black...so it doesn't fit your preconceptions, ergo, you chose Haiti.

I will bother to educate (not you two, as it doesn't fit your beliefs, so you'll minimize or ignore it) on your statement
Quote:

Nowhere on earth has a black society evolved beyond savagery...Even though they have been on earth the longest.
For the edification of others who may read this, here are a few "Black" empires which far surpassed ours, if you take technology (of which they gave us the roots) away:
Quote:

Egypt

At the height of her power, Egypt was the greatest state in the world. Egyptian civilization lasted for thousands of years, long enough for its thinkers and scientists to have carried research to a high degree. Egyptian civilization crossed the Mediterranean and became the foundation of Greek culture. The Greeks sent their young men to be educated in Egypt. The real father of medicine is not Hippocrates, the Greek, but Imhotep, a Black man, who lived 2,000 years before him.

Imhotep lived about 3000 BC, and was a towering figure. He was an architect, astronomer, poet, philosopher and chief physician to Zoser, the King of Egypt. The Black African Kings of the Fourth Dynasty built the pyramids. The Four hundred and eighty-one feet high, for more than 43 centuries it was the tallest building in the world.

His nephew, King Khafre, built the Sphinx. The Sphinx is the portrait/statue of a Black King and its African features are unmistakable.

Ethiopia (Cush, Thebes, Nubia, Kush, Axum, Meroe)

The Cushite Empire in Africa extended far and wide: to the Red Sea, to the Axumite Kingdom in the South, to Lake Chad and Uganda. The Cushites traded with Austria, India, China, Egypt, and Axum. Ethiopia dispatched her ambassadors to the known nations of her day. The City of Thebes (No or Nowe) was the oldest and greatest center of Black civilization. It was founded in pre-history. Many of its formerly great temples were prehistoric ruins 5,000 years ago.

Moorish Empire

Eurocentric historians argue that Europe gave civilization to Africa, which is a complete inversion of the truth. The first civilized Europeans were the Greeks, who were chiefly civilized by the Africans of the Nile Valley. The Greeks transmitted this culture to the Romans, who finally lost it, bringing on a dark age of five hundred years. Civilization was restored to Europe when another group of Africans, the Moors, brought this dark age to an end, re-civilizing the Christian Barbarians of Europe. During the Golden Age of Islam, the Moorish Empire, with territory in both Africa and Europe, was the most advanced state in the world.

A great African General named Tarik successfully invaded Spain in 711 AD at the head of an army of 12,000 men. He landed at a place later re-named in his honor the Hill of Tarik or, in Arabic, Gebel Tarik, which later became corrupted to Gibraltar.

It was because the conquering army in Spain was largely made up of Africans from Morocco that we hear such phrases as “The Moorish Invasion of Spain,” and why Shakespeare's hero, Othello, is a Moor, and why the word "Blackamoor" exists in the English language, a word which leaves no doubt as to the color of the army of occupation in Spain.

Moorish monarchs lived in splendid palaces, while the crowned heads of England, France, and Germany lived in big barns, lacking both windows and chimneys, with only a hole in the roof for the emission of smoke. Education was universal in Moorish Spain, available to the most humble, while in Christian Europe ninety-nine percent of the population was illiterate, and even Kings could neither read nor write.

Scientific progress in astronomy, chemistry, physics, mathematics, geography, and philosophy flourished in Moorish Spain. By 1492, the Moors had lost all of Spain except the Kingdom of Granada. The Moorish ruler, King Boabdil, was driven out of Spain by the resurgent Christian forces of Ferdinand and Isabella in the year that Columbus visited the New World. Numerous Moors lingered in Spain awhile, but by 1610, through expulsion and migration, about a million of them had returned to North and West Africa.

The decline and fall of the Moorish Empire was a great setback to modern civilization. Had this great African culture been able to survive, the world would be five hundred years more advanced than it is today.

Ghana

The ancient Black Empire of Ghana, known as the Land of Gold, was established in the western Sudan. The northern boundary of this region is the Sahara Desert. The western and southern borders are Lake Chad. The known history of Ghana extends for 44 kings before the Christian era.

The pre-eminence of Ghana was based on gold and iron. The use of iron revolutionized the social and military systems.

At this time, the King of Ghana was the ruler of a great empire and could organize an army of two hundred thousand men. The world-renowned University of Sankore was at Timbuktu. It is believed that the reasons for the decline of the Empire of Ghana (not to be confused with the modern nation of the same name) include: the southward expansion of the Sahara Desert, drought leading to famine, and civil strife over the succession to the throne.

Mali

The Empire of Mali is also called the Mellestine Empire. The people of this empire were Black Africans of the Mandingo tribe. This tribe was originally situated in what are now Guinea and Sierra Leone and points north. Their capital was called Niani on the banks of the upper Niger River. The Mandingos were a successful agricultural people. This contributed to a rapidly growing population. The Mandingos developed market towns that later grew into cities and states.

In 1326 the Mali King Mansa Musa made a famous pilgrimage to Mecca, the Holy City of the Muslims. He had with him 500 slaves, each carrying a rod of gold weighing 6 pounds, and 60,000 mounted warriors for protection. He dispensed his gold liberally along the way and in Mecca as a gift of charity. It was said that, ten years later, the economy of Egypt was still affected by his visit. The City of Timbuktu in what is now Mali was founded in the latter part of the 1st Century AD. Mansa Musa is remembered not only for his pilgrimage to Mecca and his military conquests, but also for the great buildings he erected in his capital of Timbuktu.

The Songhay Empire Also Known As the Empire of Timbuktu

The Songhay Empire arose in the 15th Century AD, on the foundations of the earlier Empire of Mali, and lasted until approximately 1590 AD The Songhay Empire was even greater in land area than the Empire of Mali. At its peak, it stretched from the Atlantic Ocean past Lake Chad to the Sudan. The Songhay Empire was founded in 1464 by Sonni Ali, a common soldier of the Songhay people.

Askia established harmony among the conflicting religious and political elements of his vast realm. He divided the empire into four parts, placing a Viceroy over each. He constructed harbors and dug canals along the mighty Niger River and its tributaries. He built a merchant fleet and a war fleet to facilitate commerce and to protect it. His ships traded with Portugal and the Mediterranean. His land caravans went to Cairo, Egypt, Algiers, Morocco and Baghdad.

Timbuktu, the cultural capital of Songhay, became the center of the Mohammedan world and was known as the "Queen of the Sudan" and the "Mecca of the Sudan". Science and learning flourished. Wise men of whatever color or religion were welcomed at Timbuktu, where they were handsomely subsidized and honored. Timbuktu was one of the world's great centers of learning and commerce.

http://www.blackpeopleinthebible.com/downloads_folder/downloads/Empire
s.pdf


There’s a bibliography there, were you interested enough to explore, which I know you’re not. We still don’t know how they built the pyramids, which exist today, how many centuries later? OUR architecture would crumble in no time without us to maintain it.

So much for empires. White Europeans just choose not to look back in time, to recognize that our forefathers were building great civilizations long before they came to Europe, lost their skin color because of the colder climates, and began thinking of themselves as “superior”.

You know why those great empires fell? Conquest. Why “we” think of ourselves as “superior”? We industrialized. But if those empires hadn’t been conquered, we’d be much further along the path of evolution. And we've never risen to the heights they did without technology.

The rest of what you say just sickens me. Your racism is deep-seated and you’ve found ways to back it up, which is pretty typical of mindsets. Facts mean nothing if you can find something to back up your already-held beliefs. As to intelligence, check out history, where people believed the reverse:
Quote:

Many ancient and medieval writers commented on how skin color correlated with intelligence. To the shock of many modern readers the Greeks and Romans equated dark skin with intelligence and lighter skin with stupidity. The Greek historian Lucian (125?-90) wrote that the Ethiopians (name for all black people), "Being in all else wiser than other men," invented astrology and taught it to the Egyptians.1 Aristotle (398-332BC) believed that, "The races that live in…. Europe are full of courage and passion but somewhat lacking in skill and brain power."


Amusingly, they represent the opposite racism from what you hold:
Quote:

"They (whites) lack keenness of understanding and clarity of intelligence, and are overcome by ignorance and dullness, lack of discernment, and stupidity."
http://endingstereotypesforamerica.org/black_and_white_intelligence.ht
ml
There’s much more information there, as well.
Quote:

It is normal for communities to believe that their culture, their values and their traditions are better than other competitive people. However, it is unfair to use pseudo-scientific psychological instruments to prove that some races are better than the others. It is unfair to label the blacks with low IQ level.

The supporters of low black intelligence claim that IQ test results since 1939 prove that the black white difference has been constantly figuring at 1.0 to 1.1 Standard Deviations (SD). This statistical claim was broken in 1997 when Armed Force Qualification Test (AFQT) showed difference of 0.97 SD in the black intelligence. The IQ score results taken with Woodcock-Johnson Intelligence test and the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC-IV) also tell a different story.

http://www.personality-and-aptitude-career-tests.com/black-intelligenc
e.html


The fact that IQ tests and "proof" found by Whites are flawed because of the generations of education the White Man had before bringing slaves over and offering them no education, then even after slavery was abolished not giving them decent educational opportunities, coupled with their society being kept separate and opportunities limited to the point where they make up a separate society for the most part, living in situations Wulf has excused, are no proof of intelligence. "Intelligence" as measured by most "scientists" is based on fallacious measurements.

I’m not going to waste any more time on showing the ignorance of this discussion. It's not a discussion. It's two people who hold racist beliefs and I have no doubt whose minds could not be changed by all the facts in the world. Keep patting one another on the back. Maybe some day people like you will be gone, maybe they won't have indoctrinated their children into believing as they do, and society can move on to some rational way of being. Probably not in my lifetime, but maybe someday...possibly when we're all so intermixed you can't "find" differences to back up beliefs such as you cling to.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 6:58 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


So, Nix.. thru your rambling, somewhat incoherent argument... the totality of your statement culminates in screaming "raciss" and walking away...

Color me surprised.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 6:59 AM

KANEMAN


Niki2, I am not racist. I just joined in a discussion that was losing focus. I gave my opinion and then backed it up with fact. You go and post an opinion on the greatness of Egypt(which I would argue aren't really black), call people names, and miss the point entirely....

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 7:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kane, you posted no "facts" and cited no backup. You posted one (highly questionable) cite to Wikipedia, which is easily rejected on its face--EVEN BY WIKIPEDIA.

As to posting "facts", I posted a ton of them all through this thread which prove from their own mouths the racist beliefs held by both Tea Partiers and Republicans. They're all cited; they're mostly words spoken by the people themselves. They show themselves as racist by their very words, as do you two.

As to my "rambling" post, most of it was refutation of Kane's statement that there had been no great Black empires. With facts. And cites. Not my opinion. You have nothing to refute those quotes, so you have nothing to offer.

As to Egypt being Black, historically it was:
Quote:

The first king of all Egypt was Menes, whose pictures and statues portray him as a dark-skinned Black man.
Quote:

MENES: THE WORLD'S FIRST BLACK GENERAL The Ancient Egyptians play a very important role. As African people, they left an indelible legacy that is still under excavation today.


Then there’s Imhotep, revered as a god by Egyptians:
Quote:

The real father of medicine is not Hippocrates, the Greek, but Imhotep, a Black man, who lived 2,000 years before him.
http://www.blackpeopleinthebible.com/downloads_folder/downloads/Empire
s.pdf
Quote:

Born into a Black commoner family, Imhotep’s intelligence was tangible from an early age, and he quickly acceded to the position of chief architect to the Third Dynasty Pharoah Djoser (r. 2688-2668 BCE), the first recorded architect we know by name.

Imhotep later became famous as a priest and doctor, again the first named medical practitioner in at least Egypt, known for his skill as a pharmacist and treater of conditions including appendicitis, gout and arthritis.

Imhotep’s most important legacy, however, is that he is the first individual we know of to become deified (glorified as a God) after death – THE FIRST RECORDED HUMAN ROOT OF RELIGION (emphasis added). During the Late Period of Egypt he became the God of Medicine (bronze Imhotep statues similar to the one pictured became a compulsory possession of all practicing doctors), and records of his worship extend in Greece and the Middle East until the 7th century.

http://www.blackpeopleinthebible.com/downloads_folder/downloads/Empire
s.pdf
Quote:

"Imhotep, the name originates from Egypt. It’s the name of a black Egyptian genius who lived around 1800BC and designed the first step pyramid in Egypt.
http://www.imhotep-properties.com/imhotep/ There are many more such references, should you care to find them. What you believe and what is fact are two different things.

I don’t have to “call” anyone racist. Your words speak for themselves, and to say I post “opinions” is fallacious. I back up what I quote with cites which can be gone to in order to verify their accuracy; as to Black Empires, there is tons on the internet and in many books about them. It’s not my opinion. Look it up for yourself if you don’t believe me...not that you will, and from the speed of both your responses, I doubt you even READ the facts I presented.

You want information on great Blacks who have changed history—with pictures and facts to back them up? Of course you don't, but others can find it here: http://www.norfolkblackhistorymonth.org.uk/history/people/imhotep.html

There is no point in debating either of you, you will, as you have, just side step the issue. Facts presented mean nothing to you, which is typical of your mindset.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 7:52 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


So Nix,

whats your solution then?

No more throwing money at it, no more blaming whitey, no more allowing for things to continue the way they are.

Whats your solution?

and please dont take the "education is key" way out either.

Tho it might be, its a refuge for people who want to wash their hands of the problem and get out of the conversation.

Now you are in it, answer. Whats the solution?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 7:57 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


1) "Nowhere on earth has a black society evolved beyond savagery"
2) "they can't seem to figure out how to make a dwelling out of any other materials besides mud and cardboard"
3) "They can't think through problems."
4) "I just don't think their brains continued evolving along with the races that came later."

Hello,

Kaneman, you claim that you are not building anything with the bricks, and that you are simply adopting scientific conclusions.

You are lying. I do not say this to be insulting. It is a fact. You are telling untruths. I don't know if you are lying only to me, or also to yourself. Take a close look at the four statements above.

Are those statements derived from scientific sources? No.

Kaneman came to these conclusions. He took up the bricks of information available to him, chose the ones that suited his purpose, and built an abomination. This is not science. It is willful ignorance and contamination of wisdom.

Truth is truth, but you don't offer any here. You offer your opinions, and your opinions are not only distasteful, they are wrong.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 7:58 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Then what is the truth, according to you Anthony?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:14 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


No worries, I'll wait.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:27 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Then what is the truth, according to you Anthony?



Hello,

The truth is that every race of people on Earth has produced individuals of intelligence, creativity, and accomplishment. This argues against an intrinsic biological defect or trait that prevents excellence. With every race proved to be capable of excellence, then any lack of excellence in various population samplings can *not* be an intrinsic biological factor or deficiency.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:30 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"The truth is that every race of people on Earth has produced individuals of intelligence, creativity, and accomplishment. This argues against an intrinsic biological defect or trait that prevents excellence. With every race proved to be capable of excellence, then any lack of excellence in various population samplings can *not* be an intrinsic biological factor or deficiency."

Ok.

I agree.

Now how do we deal with places like Detroit, SE DC, Newark, Chicago, New Orleans, ect?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:30 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No worries, I'll wait.





Hello,

Thank you for waiting sixteen minutes before following up. That was patient of you.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:30 AM

BYTEMITE


Well... Let's be fair. When you're referring to the Kings and Queens of Europe living in barns, that is one function of the castle "keep" (especially since barns have also been used as grain storage, and the main purpose of a keep was to have food storage in the event of a siege). And Castles, yes, honestly didn't not even have much in the way of amenities, not even a sewage system or running water, which the Greeks, Romans, and Arabic world DID have. But those castles are still pretty impressive, and you have to remember all the wars and intrigues and petty politics that meant people in Europe had to live in spartan fortresses all the time.

The moors invented algebra, and of course Ptolemy influenced the course of astronomy and even european christian religions for over one thousand years.

Europe did have alchemists, though. And even though we make fun of it now as pseudoscience, it wasn't all cheap tricks. One of them invented Calculus.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:36 AM

BYTEMITE


Those places I would argue are the way they are because of a lack of opportunity. You can shovel money at a problem, but there's no INFRASTRUCTURE. There's no jobs, and not many people with the technical skill to make jobs within the community.

That's an unfortunate side effect of the education offered there, I would think. In the past, that education was seriously underfunded, especially in times of segregation. Now, perhaps they get more money to try to make up the difference, but the problem is the RIGHT things aren't being taught. It's all well and good to raise up college students, but I guarantee they don't go back to the community to improve it (part of why those communities attach a stigma to it).

No, what you need in those schools, at least for now, is vocational training, so people can start doing work (and creating work) within those communities. Meaningful work that contributes to infrastructure, not just busy work like picking up trash along a highway. And if it's something students feel like they can USE, they'll be more excited about learning it, I think. :)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony has given us the complete truth, and said it better than I ever could. But I'll address one untruth which is so obvious it doesn't really need answering:

"they can't seem to figure out how to make a dwelling out of any other materials besides mud and cardboard"

That's just plain insane. Blacks own homes just like the rest of us; there are black contractors, builders, you name it, all over America.

I could find facts and cites to refute the other three, but I've wasted so much time on doing so, to no appreciable effect.

All I will do is address what I believe speaks to what the beginning of the end of racism would be, by way of answering Wulf's question:
Quote:

People have been talking racism for centuries. People continue to be racists. How do we solve this problem. Everybody has dealt with it, politicians, spiritual leaders, community activitists, and the problems of racism continue.

First, we have to admit that racism is a problem and that it’s a psycho-social problem.

But racists are like alcoholics. In Alcoholics Anonymous and Gamblers Anonymous, first the people have to admit they have a problem. Admit they are out of control alcoholics, admit that they are out of control gamblers before they can solve the problem.

The problem with racism and racialism is that almst everybody denies it.

http://socyberty.com/advice/how-to-solve-the-problem-of-racism/
Quote:

The prejudice that we confront is often a factor of education, economics and social condition. People who have limited education generally do not have the broadening experiences that will allow them to see beyond skin color. This creates a social condition where people are more comfortable among their own race, class and level of education. People who are struggling financially often feel threatened by those who they feel are competing for the same jobs. These are some of the factors can lead to a bias that an outsider perceives as racism.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/12/21/racism.guestcommentary/index.html

Those explain how we BEGIN to end racism. As to the physical answers, I’m no genius, I don’t know, but I know that acknowledging it is the first step, and the only step that will begin to end it. I know it’s not the answer you seek, but I don’t have concrete answers, I freely admit that.

If you don’t like the word “racism”, how about “bias” or “prejudice”? They are less knee-jerk but describe the mental process equally well. Until we recognize the instinct to put the "other" in a separate category from ourselves, we can't cure that, and without curing THAT, no effort to end bias will be successful. Some think it can never be done.



"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


While I was looking for material, Byte answered "what we do" concretely and eloquently, so I'll defer to her.

I wholeheartedly agree with her about vocational training. It's not the answer, but it provides POSSIBILITIES, more realistic ones than college education. That's not to say it's the whole answer, or that college education isn't needed too, but for the majority of those whose education has been poor, incomplete, and/or not pertinent to their real-world experience, vocational training would offer practical ways to earn a living, and a big step forward.

Oh, and Byte, I wasn't trying to show superiority of Black empires, merel showing they existed and should be given their due. What you wrote is perfectly valid.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:50 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I would argue that the focus on "racism" actually makes things worse.

For example: You go to a country where the people think of you as inferior. Japan, perhaps?

You start a business, or work in one. You work hard and make something of yourself, despite what people do.

Right there, you end biases.

But thats not what is happening righ now.

Instead, too many are proving those biases, as a whole.

The culture must change for the biases to be no longer relevant.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well... Let's be fair. When you're referring to the Kings and Queens of Europe living in barns, that is one function of the castle "keep" (especially since barns have also been used as grain storage, and the main purpose of a keep was to have food storage in the event of a siege). And Castles, yes, honestly didn't not even have much in the way of amenities, not even a sewage system or running water, which the Greeks, Romans, and Arabic world DID have. But those castles are still pretty impressive, and you have to remember all the wars and intrigues and petty politics that meant people in Europe had to live in spartan fortresses all the time.

The moors invented algebra, and of course Ptolemy influenced the course of astronomy and even european christian religions for over one thousand years.

Europe did have alchemists, though. And even though we make fun of it now as pseudoscience, it wasn't all cheap tricks. One of them invented Calculus.




Hello Byte,

I'd never disparage the Europeans. In fact, advanced civilizations tend to be those that form governments that survive continuously long enough to build on past successes, and are willing to adopt knowledge from any source. The Europeans became great when they became willing to change, adapt, learn, and absorb.

The Romans were once quite primitive, but their willingness to adopt any useful technology and their governance of a long-lived Empire allowed them to amass a great deal of effective and useful knowledge. When that government changed and began to experience collapse, that is when the continuous improvement of their circumstances came to an end, and much information was lost. Subsequent European governments were left to relearn or rediscover what had already been known. This happens throughout history.

Most particularly, I think states which are open to learning and practicing good ideas from anywhere are the most successful. The "not invented here" philosophy of ignoring good information because it comes from "savages," or "inferiors" or "undesirables" tends to sink societies that might otherwise thrive. I think isolationism is good when applied to warfare, but bad in trade, including the trade of knowledge. A good governing philosophy would be to "Experience Everything and Destroy Nothing." An ideal, to be sure, and one impossible to reach, but approaching it yields rewards.

I think a contributing factor to the backwardness of some Islamic nations is the cultural isolationism they engage in. They have a definite "not invented here" mindset and it holds them back. Outside development and innovation is only adopted after kicking and screaming and digging in of heels.

I think Third World nations suffer from such a constant cycle of national upheaval that they are unable to retain and develop their innovations into an ever-improving industry. If they should ever stabilize and adopt an open cultural outlook, they would advance in the same way Japan advanced once they stopped isolating themselves from barbarian knowledge and technologies.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 8:55 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"White men can't jump" - true to a certain extent. I can't dunk to save my life.

"Asians are good at math" - true in my experience.

"Latinos like to drink"- also true to my experience.

"Blacks are violent thugs" - again, true to my experience.

All of these could be considered racist and/or putting down/holding down a "people".

But is there truth to them? yes.

So, when you recognize the truth, instead of calling raciss and ending the discussion, why not work to fix these steretypes?

Or at least make these stereotypes less common?

(Except for the being good at Math part...)

By making it less likely to be able to easily prove a steretype, you also end the "raciss" aspect of it.

:)


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 9:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


None of those things hold true to any RACE completely, and of course your experience confirms them, that's how you look at it. They're true for SOME, but there are as many for whom they aren't true.

Plus, all those things are societally created and many have to do with education to large part. But the point is they're GENERALITIES about an individual race, and they don't hold true universally.

As long as we believe them, we see things that enforce those beliefs and don't see individuals as people, but as races. I know you can't wrap your head around that, but I believe it, and so do millions of others.

It's easy to say "build a business", but it's not easy, or even possible, to do for those in an economically devoid situation and/or without the training to do so. It's a disingenuous example.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 9:29 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Now how do we deal with places like Detroit, SE DC, Newark, Chicago, New Orleans, ect?"

Hello,

I actually have an idea about that, but it's pretty far out. I've begun to think of communities that have regional failures, and these regions seem to me a lot like isolated countries. I think that outsiders are unlikely to be able to properly diagnose the failures in these regions. Thus, I advocate a cultural exchange.

I think that volunteer teachers and students from regions with high performance rates should be exchanged for teachers and students from regions with low performance rates. So you'd have, say, 100 stellar teachers and 3,000 stellar students going to a low-performing school and integrating into the structure there. Meanwhile you'd have 100 low-rated teachers and 3,000 pooly performing students attend a well-performing school and integrating into the structure there. I'm thinking of a complete transplant and relocation. Each group would be living, working, and socializing in the new environment as well as going to the new school and using the newly available educational facilities.

During two years time, the students and teachers would produce opinions on environmental and other factors which they feel are impacting their performance. At the end of two years, they would compare and contrast information in an effort to identify what worked well and what didn't work, from their own points of view as participants. Education experts would evaluate the performance data from the exchange as well. Then the cultural exchange data could be analyzed to determine what aspects of the experience were beneficial or deleterious to performance.

An expensive and difficult experiment, (where do you find 2,000 star performing kids and 100 star performing teachers who are willing to enter, work, live, and learn in the worst-performing districts in the nation?) but one which I believe would be a worthwhile undertaking for the body of data it would provide.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 9:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Lovely idea, Anthony, and akin to what was hoped for in desegregating schools...as well as what exists now in teachers getting dispensation from some of their college tuition if they'll teach for X amount of time in poor areas (doctors, too). We'd have to find a more efficient way to follow those principles, tho', which I don't see happening.

I think vocational education would be a better idea, in that it would be a START, and give students jobs they could work at virtually immediately, which would bring up the living standard of where they came from. It would be a start, nothing more, but I'm in favor of the idea.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 9:42 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Are you kidding me? Thats like sending sheep to slaughter.

Part of the reason these high performing teachers do so well, is because they operate in an environment and culture that allows for good things.

You send these nice people to the hood?

Forget about it.

ETA: Im sorry but thats the way things are. These nice little teachers, with their nice prim little planners and what not will not make it a month.

Its not a real solution

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 9:50 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"I think vocational education would be a better idea, in that it would be a START, and give students jobs they could work at virtually immediately.."

Again, nice idea but not workable.

You really don't understnad the magnitude of the problem.

Granted, open up shop class and some will learn to make birdhouses.

The rest will make spikes.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 9:57 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"You send these nice people to the hood?

Forget about it."

Hello Wulf,

It's not a solution. It's a factfinding expedition and a cultural exchange. The solution is what we hope to gain afterwards. We simply don't have all the information we need to understand success and failure. This is because we study both success and failure in relative isolation. And also because of yahoos who think that X race/group has Y intrinsic properties that prevent them from succeeding.

When I was a youth in Middle School, I was part of a misguided integration program called the Horace Mann Middle School Computer Magnet Program.

The program was a disaster, in my opinion. But had anyone cared to ask me, I could have told them some of the things that were wrong with it. Nobody asked me, so the opportunity for the school system to learn was squandered.

But anyway, I was the 'nice people' and Horace Mann was in the 'hood.' And I got batted around something fierce, thanks to the lack of thought by the people who established the program. I've talked about it here before, and I might rehash it again some time. I digress.

It is possible for 'nice' people to work and learn with 'hood' people, as you put it. And vice-versa.

The main problem with our government's attempt to cure educational insufficiencies is that they are more concerned with implementing pet project solutions than with conducting large scale factfinding and cultural exchange. You have to be willing to take a look at something from all angles, inside and out, if you hope to improve it. You also have to be prepared to learn from the people who have actually experienced whatever it is you're trying to improve or replicate. Most important, you have to be prepared to implement the changes suggested by the information, even if it is inconvenient for you. There are few things more important than how we prepare our children for living.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 10:10 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Uggh. Here.

If you ain't ever been to the ghetto
Don't ever come to the ghetto
'Cause you ain't understand the ghetto
And stay the fuck out of the ghetto
Why me?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 10:16 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Uggh. Here.

If you ain't ever been to the ghetto
Don't ever come to the ghetto
'Cause you ain't understand the ghetto
And stay the fuck out of the ghetto
Why me?"

Hello,

Thank you for succinctly stating, in poetic terms, exactly why I think the exchange I suggested needs to take place. Desperately. Also why I think it needs to be years long, and not a weekend visit.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 10:17 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Better version:


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 10:21 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


You missed the point.

You can't send some lily white, fresh out of teacher school, prey to these places.

Not without an army at least.

And even if you did, what would that do?

Nothing. Worse than nothing.

The "teachers" in these places are barely educated themselves, and more like prison guards.

But at least when things get rough they know how to duck.

Your plan, no offense, does nothing. It is a wasted effort without the community and culture behind it.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 10:24 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Which has been my point all along...

You want things to change? Then they have to do it themselves.

Maybe if we stop supporting the way things are now, and force the issue (i.e. GROW UP) things will change.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 10:50 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Your plan, no offense, does nothing. It is a wasted effort without the community and culture behind it."

Hello,

You keep suggesting my plan is supposed to create change in and of itself. It's not. It's supposed to gather total holistic information about what works and what doesn't. I don't think a large-scale, comprehensive, holistic approach towards understanding the problems of education has ever been attempted. We keep implementing one solution after another, sometimes on a large scale, without ever completely understanding the elements of the problem.

By contrast, we can look at your plan, Wulf. Nothing. Literally nothing. I'm not sure what that means, exactly. Shut down the education system in underperforming areas? What do you mean by your plan to do nothing?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 10:58 AM

BYTEMITE


I was very good friends with an exchange student from Japan. She hated school, hated math, and wasn't a big fan of anime.

Even positive stereotypes can hurt people, because people have unrealistic expectations, or people might even resent someone out of envy or jealousy.

I've heard of Chinese and Japanese people getting beaten up in America for the perception of their being smart and taking away American manufacturing jobs. Of course, these are people who were BORN in the United States, but that logic doesn't matter to people who are angry.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 11:31 AM

DREAMTROVE


Were much bigger anime fans than the japanese

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 11:40 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Kane, Wulf, are you guys black? Because if you are, that might confirm your theory. You two seem to be two of the most unintelligent posters here. By your rationale, wouldn't that make you black?


Either of you guys architects, engineers, doctors, inventors, teachers, astronomers, composers, mathematicians, anything like that? Either of you?

If not, then why are you such miserable failures? I mean, how else can you explain the fact that I can rattle off the names of famous black people in each of those fields? If they're so inferior to you, why have you not risen above them? Shouldn't you be deeply shamed by your failure and wasted potential?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, May 28, 2010 11:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So Nix,

whats your solution then?

No more throwing money at it, no more blaming whitey, no more allowing for things to continue the way they are.

Whats your solution?

and please dont take the "education is key" way out either.

Tho it might be, its a refuge for people who want to wash their hands of the problem and get out of the conversation.

Now you are in it, answer. Whats the solution?




What's YOUR solution, Wulfie? You've offered nothing at all. You just want to say, "Yup, they're just inferior, that's all." and wash your hands of it and walk away. You're in it, too. Answer; what's the solution?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

FFF.NET SOCIAL