It's worse than we know by AURaptor

America loves a winner!

See?

Proved me right, once again.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 3:45 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Actually, I think you proved ME right with some of your other posts, where you seem to lay the blame solidly at the feet of BP, and express doubts that even they can do anything to stop the spill, despite Obama ordering them to "plug the damn hole". Hell, you even seem to be blaming BP for taking too long, and for hindering the efforts of others to contain the spill.

So, if BP can't do it, how exactly do you expect Obama to do it? I know you think he's the Messiah, but I keep reminding you, he's really just one man. He doesn't have super powers, no mater what you think. Since you seem to have all the answers, what's YOUR plan for stopping the spill? Lay it out; I'll pass it along to the President, and you can take credit for making him do something.

Deal?

So let's hear your plan.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:18 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:

"For years, the oil and gas industry has leveraged such power that they have effectively been allowed to regulate themselves," Obama said. He said U.S. laws were "tailored by the industry to serve their needs instead of the public's," giving short shrift to environmental concerns.

Watch Obama talk about the government's role

After a monthlong review of the industry, he announced his administration was suspending dozens of drilling projects, canceling plans to open new parts of the Gulf of Mexico and the Virginia coast to exploration and suspending new deepwater permits for another six months.

Obama also defended his administration's response to the disaster, telling reporters that people who accuse it of being too slow to respond "don't know the facts."

"It doesn't mean it's going to happen right away or the way I'd like it to happen. It doesn't mean that we're not going to make mistakes," he said. "But there shouldn't be any confusion here: The federal government is fully engaged, and I'm fully engaged."

Hello,

I just read this in an article on CNN. It makes me hopeful. It seems clear that there is going to be a policy shift in regards to oil extraction and regulating the industry.

For the record, I think any industry capable of creating a national disaster needs to be closely monitored and regulated. Part of that regulation needs to address safety measures. The other part of that regulation needs to address safety failures. Or more succinctly, "What happens when all of your active safety measures don't work?"

Some reactors are built so that an utter failure of the reactor automatically causes it to commit suicide safely. Perhaps a similar tactic can be applied to oil drilling?

I think we may also need to consider legislation that uncaps industry liability in the event of a disaster. Unlimited damage ought to mean unlimited liability.

I consider this to be fair Libertarian practice. If you're going to engage in activity that could destroy your neighbors, then they have a vested interest in what you are doing. It's one of those magic lines where their freedom to live intersects your freedom to do what you want. It's the important difference between, "A government concerned with preserving our freedoms" and "no government interference whatsoever." I don't think Libertarianism ought to be the latter. Everyone's freedom matters, or no one's freedom matters, as Frem is apt to say on other topics.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:26 PM

America loves a winner!

TAMPA - The discovery in the depths of the Gulf of Mexico was so unsettling University of South Florida marine scientists ran two tests this week just to make sure.

Data from an array of instruments was conclusive: a team on board the USF research vessel Weatherbird II had discovered a vast new plume of oil about 3,300 feet beneath the waves.

The blob, more than 6 miles wide, is stretching inland toward the shallower waters off Alabama, where many fish and other species reproduce, said David Hollander, associate professor of chemical oceanography at USF.

"I really think we are going to find more and more of those" he said of the underwater plumes of oil. "That is the big unknown at this point.".

He said that with the amount of dispersants being unleashed on the gusher in the Gulf, such a plume was inevitable.

"There is no free ride," Clark said. "That dispersant has to go somewhere."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37387452

Earth that was....

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Earth that was....

Yeah, before gigantic oil companies, drunk on power and cheap rum and high on meth, ran rampant through the halls of power, giving wedgies and buzzcuts to anyone who tried to stand in their way, and before they decided to blow off all the regulations and safety procedures and just fuck the planet all to hell.

I know where they can get a great deal on a lightly-used "Mission Accomplished!" banner.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rappy, I really understand your desperation and pain on this one, and so do Niki and a lot of other people. The disaster is so horrific, so heart-rending, that we all want something... anything... to be done.

So maybe sand bars islands should have been constructed to protect the marshes, but the REAL problem is underwater, and the only solution is to STOP THE LEAK. And that, the government has NO expertise, or material, or deepwater equipment. It's not that the government is good at "nothing". The government is good at a LOT of things, but this just isn't one of them. And being a technical government person, I can tell you that there is no substitute for experience and expertise.... and THAT you can't just create at a moment's notice!

The best thing the government could have done would be to simply BAN DRILLING in environmentally sensitive area... or at least ban drilling unless the oil company has a credible, fully-tested disaster plan, equipment, and materials in place. Because SOME disasters are simply too large, too irrecoverable, to be allowed to take place. That is where the common good conflicts with the right to a profit, and the government SHOULD be representing the common good because the companies CANNOT.

As far as what the Fed government is doing with all the money it gets? It's waging war in faraway and mostly irrelevant places, playing global cop when global development would create more security.

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:37 PM

Quote:
As far as what the Fed government is doing with all the money it gets? It's waging war in faraway and mostly irrelevant places, playing global cop when global development would create more security.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!

That's unfair and totally biased.

They're not playing global cop; they're fighting for freedom. Specifically, they're fighting for BP's freedom to spill oil over there, so they don't have to spill it over here. Free marketeers envision a world in which anyone can spill anything at any time - and someone will still find a way to make a buck off it and blame it on the government! Hey, it's the American Way™ (now manufactured in China, the Chinese Way™, at a cost of $0.02 apiece)

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:11 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yes, Anthony, they have suits and stuff...they won’t let people wear them without a good bit of training, and since they bring in their own people, they’re the ones who get the suits. As I posted about our oil spills, we were only allowed to come clean up with the hazmat guys had left behind, and even then were provided with over-shoe boots and gloves and given lectures, etc. NOT something to mess with! And you’ll note, if you heard, that some of the HAZMAT guys were taken to hospital today, so even that doesn’t keep you truly safe.

Quote:
Has BP explained to you how their "safe" plans all went to hell so quickly? I mean, you seem to think they have such a firm grip on things. Tell us all again why more than a month later, they still haven't made any progress in capping their well that they fucked up so badly.

Bang on. Easy to shoot one’s mouth off when there’s no responsibility attached. Especially for some people.

Crappy, I recognize and sympathize deeply with your shock and anger; most of us share it. But:

Quote:
At least BP can explain what is going on.

See above by Mike, and no, BP may be ABLE to explain stuff, but they’re not DOING it...they fought like hell to keep the feed from the camera from going public, lied about how much oil was coming out (still are, actually), initially lied to say there WAS no spill, and on and on.

Quote:
Haven't made any progress ? I was under the impression they HAD made pretty good progress on capping the well. At least, as of 2 hrs ago.

If you believe that...well, I’ve got this big, pretty, orange bridge just ten miles away I’d like to sell you... They gave the top kill only a 60-70% chance of working in the first place, and odds are it WON’T. Even if it does, it’s a month after the spill, you consider that “efficient”?!?! They signed documents saying sure, they could fix anything that happened, KNOWING they couldn’t having EXPERIENCED situations—not this deep—where they couldn’t; they ignored multiple warning signs for increased profit which would have PREVENTED this in the first place. Put your faith in BP if you want, but the truth is, they don’t know what they’re doing and they won’t tell anyone what they DO know.

You really can’t grasp reality, Crappy. I put up a thread detailing what the government/Obama have done so far, which of course you’ll find some reason to ignore or attack, but you’re wrong about “failure to act”...what DID happen to “it’s not about Obama”? HIS failure, right, not the governments, even tho’ both ARE acting and HAVE BEEN acting all along. Back to your fantasy world little one, find a video of some imaginary “hero” who’s gonna save the day...I think he wears a cape or something, stick his fist in, voila!

Quote:
The coast are barren, empty, void of any activity. Don't believe me ? Ask Bobby Jindal. Ask Plaquemines Parish President Billy Nungesser. Ask James Carville. They're down there. They're knee deep in the oil. You're a liar, and so is Obama. Straight up.

There's nothing you can say, there's no quip you can offer, no evasion you can toss out that'll distract America from what's really going on, right now.

To begin with, those three aren't knee deep in the oil, that's untrue. Second, the coasts aren’t "barren, empty, void of any activity". Some areas are, more will be, but that’s the most absurd statement you’ve made all day! The MSM covers stories: If it bleeds, it leads. They’re showing the worst, as they do in any disaster, but it doesn’t mean the entire coast is dead...yet. Will be, in large part, certainly, but you just swallow whatever’s handed to you, don’t you? America doesn’t need to be distracted, most of it IS, with their own small lives, and politicians are distracted with their careers, their party—-you have heard them bitching about how we need to drill MORE to make up for what this has lost, and how the cap can’t be raised because it might put “mom and pop” oil companies out of business??

Jindal asked for MORE of what he needs, not SOME...he’s already gotten some and is getting more. Back in 2008, he was all for expanding oil drilling:

Quote:
While serving in Congress in August 2006, Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal (R) slammed the Bush administration for its response to Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. Jindal said the state suffered “trauma” from the “widespread incompetence of the federal, state and local government response.”

But yesterday on Fox News, it was Jindal who was displaying Katrina incompetence. Making a push for expanded offshore oil drilling, Jindal repeated the myth that Hurricanes Katrina and Rita caused “no major” oil spills in the state. Jindal called it a “great unwritten success story”:

Q: Real fast, Governor, the price of oil went up five bucks a barrel today. You’ve been drilling off the coast of Louisiana for a number of years. Any oil spills to worry about?

JINDAL: You know, that’s one of the great unwritten success stories, after Katrina and Rita, these awful storms, no major spills

Jindal is clueless about the reality in his own state. As noted in the Wonk Room, the Hurricanes caused offshore oil spills so large that they could be seen from space (check out a picture here.) The Minerals Management Service reported that 113 oil platforms were “totally destroyed” — a total of 124 offshore spills.

In fact, oil seeped onshore into southeast Louisiana, which saw 44 onshore and offshore oil spills. The EPA called the spills “worse than the worst-case scenario.” Even oil industry representatives admitted: “nature can always topple you.”

It’s hard to see how this is a “great unwritten success story.”

(video at http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/27/jindal-katrina-oil-spill/) HE VOTED FOR OFFSHORE DRILLING, for heaven’s sake!

Carville? Obviously doesn’t know what he’s talking about, and “The president doesn't get down here in the middle of this.”—-he really wants Obama wandering around, like he could do something (he’s already BEEN there, mind you!), with all his entourage stopping things from actually happening?? He will be, on Friday, with all the confusion his coming entails, but for Carville to think he doesn't know, and that things will change if he sees it in person...it's just absurd.

He obviously is unaware of all the things the government IS doing and HAS been doing; shooting his mouth off doesn’t mean he knows what he’s talking about. He backtracked a bit last night, by the way, after Sarahcuda agreed with him...maybe he realized how full of bull he’d been:

Quote:
On CNN last night, he said: “I think that when this president comes down here Friday and actually sees what’s going on, I think we’re going to swing into action here… I just think that the president is not being told what the situation here is in a very candid way.”

And he launched into his best Ragin’ Cajun: “This president needs to tell BP ‘I’m ya daddy. I’m in charge. You gonna do what we say. You’re a multinational company that is greedy and you may be guilty of criminal activity.’” And he took off after BP: “It’s time that we understand: BP does not wish this thing well. They have been negligent. They need to whip out their checkbook and start moving… and the president needs to push them.”

For having such a big mouth, this is someone who needs to engage his BRAIN as well. Like Obama COULD tell BP “I’m ya daddy”?!?!

What did he have to say as recently as April 4?

Quote:
Mr. Carville, a Louisiana-bred campaign veteran, found encouragement in Mr. Obama’s new plan to expand domestic oil drilling. The plan makes it easier for Senator Mary Landrieu, a Democrat from Mr. Carville’s home state, to back the president’s goals; it also increases pressure to cooperate on pro-drilling Republicans.

Billy Nungesser ??

Quote:
General Allen could step up to the plate, say enough is enough, ah’m puttin’ Joe Blow in charge, and he’s gonna have somebody out in East Parish that can make the decision, we’re gonna get him the boom, and go ahead and say let’s pump every Barrya island, and we’re gonna keep this thing from goin’ ashore

I sympathize with the guy, it’s gotta be horrific, but he’s one person talking about one place, and he’s asking the impossible. The BOOMS DON’T WORK, for heaven’s sake, we already know that. From a Louisianan:

Quote:
Who heard or saw Billy Nungesser say "nobody wants to be cleaning oil off of Bourbon Street?" I was compelled to email him and let him know how damaging this inane comment is. Doesn;t he realize there are people in other places who will take this seriously?

So I ask you now, "WHO WANTS TO SEE BILLY NUNGESSER BE QUIET???"

He talked on the phone to Mary Landreau, after which he said she told him

Quote:
“we don’t have the money, it would take a third of the budget to do the whole cleanup. You can’t do it in six months”.

Nungesser: “Well, I wanna know what expert has more detailed infamation and the people been doin’ dredgin’ for thirty years that say we can do it...they, they are holdin’ up the project, gimme somebody I can put my hands around their neck...If they woulda said Bill do whatcha gotta do and we’ll supportcha, that’s what the United States is s’posed ta do, we woulda had a barrya Island pump by now ‘cuz I’da put every marsh puppy, every barge wit a bucket on it, we’da built a barrya island, trees woulda been growin’ by now...I guarantee ya, we’da protected it”.

Listen to this guy back on April 30th: http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/04/30/sot.billy.nungesser
.oil.spill.wwl BACK THEN HE SUPPORTED DRILLING AND WANTED IT TO CONTINUE DESPITE THE SPILL!!! Watch the video: I dare you!

These three aren’t people to be quoting and listening to.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:16 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sig is right:

Quote:
Rappy, I really understand your desperation and pain on this one, and so do Niki and a lot of other people. The disaster is so horrific, so heart-rending, that we all want something... anything... to be done.

and

Quote:
The best thing the government could have done would be to simply BAN DRILLING in environmentally sensitive area... or at least ban drilling unless the oil company has a credible, fully-tested disaster plan, equipment, and materials in place. Because SOME disasters are simply too large, too irrecoverable, to be allowed to take place. That is where the common good conflicts with the right to a profit, and the government SHOULD be representing the common good because the companies CANNOT.

Those are things us "tree huggers" have been hollering about for DECADES, warning about for decades, PLEADING about for decades. For Johnny-come-latelies who were all for drilling all along to suddenly now be bitching because the federal government can't clean up private enterprise's messes is one of the saddest ironies going...except that once it's over, they'll go right back to demanding more drilling, while we tree huggers sit and weep, and wait for the next one (as we've been doing ever since the Exxon Valdez).

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:22 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

In fairness, I think anyone who advocates the exploitation of a natural resource usually does so with the intention that the people exploiting it will make some effort to do so responsibly.

It's hard to make the full scope of irresponsibility sink in because the criminal degree of the violations being committed would be abhorrent for the average human to consider being possible.

No matter how bad it gets, I'm endlessly surprised. And I like to pretend that I'm intelligent.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:30 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'll grant you that one, Anthony, easily. But I'll also point out that it is particularly short-sighted to think that way, and that past experience by now should have given people a clue. Also, there are still some out there who are advocating drilling and don't believe the danger, even now--Rand Paul saying "accidents happen", and what about Nungesser, who was advocating drilling even while the leak was happening?!

Yes, we can be a particularly stupid species, you're right. That's no excuse. And I guarantee you; there are those out there, especially politicians, who are saying "damn!", not because of the leak, but because it gets in the way of their agenda to increase drilling. What's happening is of no importance to them except for that. Wanna take that bet?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Anthony, you're a nice guy but incredibly naive about business. You think that businesses only get big bc of "regulation" and that use of natural resources will be done "responsibly" without taking into account the inherent GREED that is part and parcel of the profit motive?

But you think THIS is a disaster?? Just wait until global warming catches up with us! The same people who were saying "drill baby, drill" and "human-caused global warming is a hoax" and "population control is a government conspiracy" will be begging... BEGGING.... for someone, anyone, to save them from disaster.

And guess what?? Nobody will be able to. There will be NO savior. The pooch, as they say, will have been screwed. Some disasters are just too big to be fixed, and this is one of them.

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Friday, May 28, 2010 12:50 AM

America loves a winner!

Sig

When it comes to capping the well, the Gov't has no real resources to deal w/ this event because it has no NEED to. The Gov't isn't in the oil drilling business. The oil companies are the ones who invested $$ in R & D, created this technology, and know how to use it. The experts on that matter, those who really know what they are dealing with, are the ones at point of this issue.

And that's how it should be. But the response part, the building of sand berms to protect the marshlands....that should have been done WEEKS ago. That's where Gov't should have gotten the HELL out of the way, but instead, dragged its feet and is now responsible for untold miles of shoreline literally being killed.

The problem here is the depth of the well. Because of the environmental concerns, this well was drilled further out to see and deeper than it needed to be. Guess what.... an oil gusher in shallow water is far easier to cap than one 1000's of feet down.
To say " Oh, just ban drilling ", is ridiculous. There's nothing but open water between the gusher and the shoreline, so what the hell difference does it make if the spill is 5 miles out or 50 ? The relevant issue here is, if there's an accident, how quickly can resources be brought in to deal with an contain the damage. Here, because the well was so deep, specific resources had to be brought in from god knows where, a team assembled to figure out exactly what's wrong, how to attack the problem , all of which is so deep no divers can even reach.

If this event had taken place in far shallower water, it'd have been capped weeks ago.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, May 28, 2010 3:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rappy, I should have limited my statement to banning DEEP WATER oil drilling, which is what I meant. My point is that the blowout preventers, well-capping equipment, and even the well casings- have not been tested in such extreme conditions. BP's response plan was inadequate and ill-informed, according to those who've read it PEER, of which I'm a member) and if the Minerals Management Service had actually done their job as a government agency instead of living in BP's pocket they would have never let BP start drilling until the plan was fixed.

Also, I would ban oil drilling in sensitive coastal areas such as near marshlands, estuaries, kelp forests, coral reefs, marine preserves, and so forth.

I'm wondering how quickly barrier islands could have been tossed up. the guy who was promoting it said that trees could have been been growing on them already. Really??? Doesn't sound likely. It's a moot point, but it would be interesting to see if they COULD have been put up in time, or if that is just frustration talking.

Anyway, my point is that if you're going to let business be business, you've also got to let government be government- doing their jobs effectively and not acting as a beard for irresponsible/ criminal activities)/

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Friday, May 28, 2010 4:12 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Anthony, you're a nice guy but incredibly naive about business. You think that businesses only get big bc of "regulation" and that use of natural resources will be done "responsibly" without taking into account the inherent GREED that is part and parcel of the profit motive?

But you think THIS is a disaster?? Just wait until global warming catches up with us! The same people who were saying "drill baby, drill" and "human-caused global warming is a hoax" and "population control is a government conspiracy" will be begging... BEGGING.... for someone, anyone, to save them from disaster.

And guess what?? Nobody will be able to. There will be NO savior. The pooch, as they say, will have been screwed. Some disasters are just too big to be fixed, and this is one of them.

Hello Signy,

The world is gradually rolling towards a bigger share of safe, renewable energy sources. A trundling behemoth, to be sure, but trundling and shuffling slowly in the correct direction.

I have been saying this for nearly a decade, and I'll say it again now. The people who are shouting loudest about global warming are doing themselves and the world a disservice.

The world needs less pollution and more renewable energy. Neither of those things can be accomplished as the result of an argument about the temperature of the planet. Every word spent on talking about the temperature of the planet is a word wasted. Indeed, it's a word misspent and laid at your own feet like sharp tacks.

People like to breathe, they like to eat, and they like to have money. They like to see green things and growing things. They don't like other people hurting them, their families, or their country. The average person is greedy.

These basics of human nature can solve all of the problems involved in global warming. No temperature discussions are required.

I saw a group of people build a house designed to minimize waste and provide all of its own energy needs, and none of them said one word about global warming. That's the road to take.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 28, 2010 5:25 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

As of this instant, the CNN live feed of the leak is showing clear waters and no leak.

Can anyone verify if this is correct?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 28, 2010 5:33 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

As of this instant, the CNN live feed of the leak is showing clear waters and no leak.

Can anyone verify if this is correct?

--Anthony

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37394541/ns/gulf_oil_spill/

U.S. official: Flow of oil from spill has stopped
But BP says it will be 48 hours before success of 'top kill' will be known

WASHINGTON - The flow of oil from the broken well in the Gulf of Mexico has stopped, the Coast Guard Admiral Thad Allen claimed Friday, but BP warned it would be a further 48 hours before it was known whether the "top kill" procedure had been successful.

"They have been able to stop the hydrocarbons from coming up the wellbore," Allen said on ABC's Good Morning America. "I think the real challenge today is going to be sustain the mud on top of the hydrocarbons and reduce the pressure to the point where they could actually put a cement plug in."

=============

God Bless our friend Cement!

How long before it's safe to eat anything from those waters...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, May 28, 2010 7:33 AM

OPPYH

Maybe I'm the dumbest person on the planet, but don't oil rigs have to pump the oil? What the hell is causing this stuff to gush out of control?

You can dig a hole on a beach 30 feet from the ocean, and hit water. The water isn't going to shoot up like a geyser out of control...that is my incorrect analogy. Someone please fill me in!

-------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Friday, May 28, 2010 7:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

When it comes to capping the well, the Gov't has no real resources to deal w/ this event because it has no NEED to. The Gov't isn't in the oil drilling business. The oil companies are the ones who invested $$ in R & D, created this technology, and know how to use it. The experts on that matter, those who really know what they are dealing with, are the ones at point of this issue.

Okay, since you've conceded my point, why are you still complaining about the government not taking over and capping the well, when you admit they have no expertise in doing so?

These so-called "experts" aren't flying blind here. It's not as if this has never happened before. I described above exactly how and where it happened in almost exactly the same way, down to almost every single detail, and THE SAME PEOPLE WERE INVOLVED!

So why didn't they have better equipment, knowing full well the history of failure of what they have? Why didn't they have a better plan, knowing full well the history of failures their emergency plans have had? Why didn't they already have a relief well 80% or 90% drilled before they tapped this reservoir of oil, knowing full well that last time this exact same thing happened, and they tried the exact same measures to stop it, and every one of those measure failed, KNOWING that the only thing that has ever worked before on this kind of thing was drilling a relief well, why aren't they required to drill a relief well, just in case, and leave it just shy of completion, in case they need to finish it in a hurry?

Quote:

And that's how it should be. But the response part, the building of sand berms to protect the marshlands....that should have been done WEEKS ago. That's where Gov't should have gotten the HELL out of the way, but instead, dragged its feet and is now responsible for untold miles of shoreline literally being killed.

Sorry, but there are protocols that must be followed before undertaking any such project. Jumping in willy-nilly has had many deleterious effects on wetlands in the past. Ludicrous as it sounds, someone had to run the studies and find out if building man-made islands was going to have a worse effect on the marshlands than the oil would if it reached shore. That sucks, but that's the reality of it. Sometimes you send hundreds of firemen running into a burning building, and it collapses and kills them all, along with the people they were trying to save. Nobody wins. I think there was a very real hope that the oil slick would somehow miss that fragile wetlands area and slip off to the east, but it didn't.

Quote:

The problem here is the depth of the well. Because of the environmental concerns, this well was drilled further out to see and deeper than it needed to be. Guess what.... an oil gusher in shallow water is far easier to cap than one 1000's of feet down.

"Because of environmental concerns"? It wasn't the environmentalists who asked for permission to drill offshore in deep water; it was the oil companies. To imply otherwise is to engage in rationalization on a massive scale, and it's just flat-out fabrication and lying. Oil companies are BEGGING to be allowed to drill in deep water, and they're assuring the government that they are fully prepared for any emergency while doing so. They aren't drilling these wells with a sense of trepidation, saying, "Oh, we really don't want to do this, but the big bad government and those ultra-powerful environmentalists are making us, and we don't think we're anywhere close to prepared if anything goes wrong. I mean, we just don't have the equipment to deal with this kind of stuff, and we'd have to inspect the equipment we do have three or four times per year to even certify any degree of safety at all."

That's a conversation that has never, ever been heard on an oil platform or in a petroleum company's boardroom.

Quote:

To say " Oh, just ban drilling ", is ridiculous. There's nothing but open water between the gusher and the shoreline, so what the hell difference does it make if the spill is 5 miles out or 50 ? The relevant issue here is, if there's an accident, how quickly can resources be brought in to deal with an contain the damage. Here, because the well was so deep, specific resources had to be brought in from god knows where, a team assembled to figure out exactly what's wrong, how to attack the problem , all of which is so deep no divers can even reach.

I agree, we're not going to just "ban drilling". Even if we stopped using oil and gasoline, we're still going to need petroleum products for the foreseeable future, for things like plastics, lubricants, and thousands of other things.

But if you can't work on the rig because it's in deep water, you shouldn't be able to put that rig in that water. If you can't put the necessary emergency equipment into place and have it staged less than two days away from your location, you shouldn't be drilling there. And if you're reporting 5.4 BILLION dollars in your first quarter of the year in PROFITS (not revenues, PROFITS), then you can damned well afford more than one piece of emergency equipment for your global operations. And if you can afford to vote a billion dollar dividend for your shareholders a week after the worst spill in U.S. history begins, you can afford more equipment than that, too.

Quote:

If this event had taken place in far shallower water, it'd have been capped weeks ago.

Maybe. Again, if you don't have the equipment and expertise, stay out of the deep water.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, May 28, 2010 7:57 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oppyh, of course you're not dumb. You just don't have the facts, that's not about being dumb. If you were serious, please stop that kind of thinking, you don't deserve it!

The oil pocket became oil because of the humongous pressure it's been under for centuries. BP stuck essentially a "straw" in the pocket, which caused the pressure to shoot the oil out. As long as there's no "straw" to capture the shooting oil and put it somewhere, the pressure keeps gushing it out into the water, which of course has a much lower pressure.

I may have done it simply and poorly, but does that help answer your question? I KNOW there are others here who can give you a better, scientific explanation, I just got here first. They will no doubt follow.

Gawd, I hope you're right and it has stopped! That would be a miracle of amazing proportions--and no, we couldn't credit BP if it has stopped, they caused it through their own profit drive and ignoring of warnings in the first place, and I wonder if it's worked why they didn't try it sooner?

I can't find anything but MSNBC (for all people put them down here, wouldn't it be delicious if they had it before anyone else?), but I'm still looking. And praying.

If so, now the REAL battle begins, but at least there's hope.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 28, 2010 8:03 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

ABC is reporting "oil, gas and mud" coming out, and the live feed doesn't look any different. But MSNBC is saying it may be having an effect, and that we have to wait 24-48 hours to know. I'm still looking; if something like this has happened, you'd think they'd be screaming it from the rooftops...

They've added the "junk shot", by the way.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 28, 2010 8:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Anthony, you're a nice guy but incredibly naive about business. You think that businesses only get big bc of "regulation" and that use of natural resources will be done "responsibly" without taking into account the inherent GREED that is part and parcel of the profit motive?

But you think THIS is a disaster?? Just wait until global warming catches up with us! The same people who were saying "drill baby, drill" and "human-caused global warming is a hoax" and "population control is a government conspiracy" will be begging... BEGGING.... for someone, anyone, to save them from disaster.

And guess what?? Nobody will be able to. There will be NO savior. The pooch, as they say, will have been screwed. Some disasters are just too big to be fixed, and this is one of them.

Hello Signy,

The world is gradually rolling towards a bigger share of safe, renewable energy sources. A trundling behemoth, to be sure, but trundling and shuffling slowly in the correct direction.

I have been saying this for nearly a decade, and I'll say it again now. The people who are shouting loudest about global warming are doing themselves and the world a disservice.

The world needs less pollution and more renewable energy. Neither of those things can be accomplished as the result of an argument about the temperature of the planet. Every word spent on talking about the temperature of the planet is a word wasted. Indeed, it's a word misspent and laid at your own feet like sharp tacks.

People like to breathe, they like to eat, and they like to have money. They like to see green things and growing things. They don't like other people hurting them, their families, or their country. The average person is greedy.

These basics of human nature can solve all of the problems involved in global warming. No temperature discussions are required.

I saw a group of people build a house designed to minimize waste and provide all of its own energy needs, and none of them said one word about global warming. That's the road to take.

I have to comment, and say "right on, Anthony!" :)

Also, every word "wasted" on temperature arguments is also more carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere. Just sayin'.

We shouldn't make this about climate change; we should make it about growing green and increasing the technology and reaching towards a brighter future.

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Friday, May 28, 2010 8:12 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
People like to breathe, they like to eat, and they like to have money. They like to see green things and growing things. They don't like other people hurting them, their families, or their country. The average person is greedy.

I've never understood, apart from the money thing, which is an artificial construct...

WHY is ANY of that greedy? It's just... Living. Living doesn't have to be aggressive, or demanding, or make other people suffer.

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Friday, May 28, 2010 8:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Oppyh, of course you're not dumb. You just don't have the facts, that's not about being dumb. If you were serious, please stop that kind of thinking, you don't deserve it!

The oil pocket became oil because of the humongous pressure it's been under for centuries. BP stuck essentially a "straw" in the pocket, which caused the pressure to shoot the oil out. As long as there's no "straw" to capture the shooting oil and put it somewhere, the pressure keeps gushing it out into the water, which of course has a much lower pressure.

That's the way I understand it. At some point, you bring out enough oil that you'll have to start applying suction and pumping it out, but that's after the pressure is equalized. Ever watch "The Hellfighters" with John Wayne? How they were going around capping oil wells and putting out gushers and fires? It's because that oil is under such immense pressure when it's tapped, so it comes shooting out of the ground.

You can dig a hole and hit a water main, and water definitely WILL shoot up into the air, y'know? :)

And no, I don't think you're dumb; I just think you're not thinking of it in the right terms, or visualizing it correctly.

I grew up in West Texas, so I'm used to seeing the pump-jacks all over the landscape. Those are there to pump out the oil once the pressure falls to a point where the oil isn't just pumping itself out of the ground.

Also, remember Gulf War I, when Saddam knocked the caps off so many wellheads, and just left oil gushing all over the desert and burning so much that it turned the skies black over huge swaths of the landscape? That was oil under pressure, not being pumped out by mechanical means. If it were being pumped out, you could just turn off the pump. Wouldn't that have been sweet?

Quote:

Gawd, I hope you're right and it has stopped! That would be a miracle of amazing proportions--and no, we couldn't credit BP if it has stopped, they caused it through their own profit drive and ignoring of warnings in the first place, and I wonder if it's worked why they didn't try it sooner?

I find that a little bit unfair. If BP has been successful in stopping the flow, all credit goes to them. It doesn't relieve them of responsibility in any way to admit that they were able to stop the flow, if indeed they have done so. Last I saw (last night), they were saying it looked like they'd failed, and it looked like oil was gushing out again. I hope that was wrong, and they have indeed stopped the flow. NOW is the time to pile everything on top of it, not wait around and see if it starts gushing again!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, May 28, 2010 8:17 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

As of this instant, the CNN live feed of the leak is showing clear waters and no leak.

Can anyone verify if this is correct?

--Anthony

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37394541/ns/gulf_oil_spill/

U.S. official: Flow of oil from spill has stopped
But BP says it will be 48 hours before success of 'top kill' will be known

WASHINGTON - The flow of oil from the broken well in the Gulf of Mexico has stopped, the Coast Guard Admiral Thad Allen claimed Friday, but BP warned it would be a further 48 hours before it was known whether the "top kill" procedure had been successful.

"They have been able to stop the hydrocarbons from coming up the wellbore," Allen said on ABC's Good Morning America. "I think the real challenge today is going to be sustain the mud on top of the hydrocarbons and reduce the pressure to the point where they could actually put a cement plug in."

=============

God Bless our friend Cement!

How long before it's safe to eat anything from those waters...

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Friday, May 28, 2010 8:17 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Ludicrous as it sounds, someone had to run the studies and find out if building man-made islands was going to have a worse effect on the marshlands than the oil would if it reached shore."

Hello,

I know you are trying to express a risk assessment here, Mike. However, I think this is a risk assessment that can be made in about 3 seconds. Covering the marsh with oil is worse than almost anything. The Fat Man would have been better than this.

But I think you were trying to say that if the oil didn't reach the shore, then man-made islands would have been deleterious to the health of the marshlands. That's reasonable. I'd opine that this is a case where the risk of oil ecologicide was so great that putting up barriers was warranted. If the erection of barriers was blocked, then that's a policy that needs to be changed for the future. Everyone has a right to defend themselves.

I hope we learn from this experience and create better plans for such disasters in the future, with pre-risk assessment and containment resources on ice at all times in case they are needed.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

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Friday, May 28, 2010 8:21 AM

Oh, and just for Rappy, so he doesn't think I *always* have to disagree with him:

I'm plenty mad. I'm mad at everybody on this one. I'm mad at BP, Halliburton, TransOcean, the MMS, the federal government, and President Obama himself. Too little was done in preparation for this, too little was done by way of safety and regulation, too little was done by way of inspection and certification, and too little was done by way of reaction.

But I'll be goddamned if I'm going to try to lay the entirety of the disaster at the feet of Obama.

For future reference, let's start figuring out not ONE solution to such cock-ups, but MULTIPLE solutions, all of them multi-pronged. We don't need just a Plan B, we need backups for our backups. When something goes wrong on this magnitude, we don't need to sit around going, "What to do?" - we need to leap into action, one group working on the wellhead to stop the flow, one working on containment, one working on protecting the shoreline, others working on cleanup and animal emergencies, others working on logistics and staging materiel, etc., etc.

As bad as this is, let's not let it be in vain. Let's learn from it, and never forget.

Anyone think we can? We've shown a remarkable ability to forget the lessons of the past; think we'll ever get past that?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Friday, May 28, 2010 8:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Ludicrous as it sounds, someone had to run the studies and find out if building man-made islands was going to have a worse effect on the marshlands than the oil would if it reached shore."

Hello,

I know you are trying to express a risk assessment here, Mike. However, I think this is a risk assessment that can be made in about 3 seconds. Covering the marsh with oil is worse than almost anything. The Fat Man would have been better than this.

But I think you were trying to say that if the oil didn't reach the shore, then man-made islands would have been deleterious to the health of the marshlands. That's reasonable. I'd opine that this is a case where the risk of oil ecologicide was so great that putting up barriers was warranted. If the erection of barriers was blocked, then that's a policy that needs to be changed for the future. Everyone has a right to defend themselves.

I hope we learn from this experience and create better plans for such disasters in the future, with pre-risk assessment and containment resources on ice at all times in case they are needed.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad

Anthony:

Yes. To all that. :)

We cross-posted; read my post just below yours, and you'll see we're remarkably in agreement.

And I'm with you - if total destruction is the worst-case scenario, anything less would have to rate as a win. It's not a matter of "Do ANYTHING"; it's a matter of "DO EVERYTHING!"

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Friday, May 28, 2010 9:00 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You know what I just saw that blew my mind? Obama, on the Gulf shore, PICKED UP A TAR BALL!!! Has nobody told him? People are in the hospital for picking up tar IN HAZMAT SUITS! Of course one little tar ball won't put him in the hospital, but it's the height of stupidity...just being there is dangerous enough, breathing in what's floating around, but picking up oil is totally insane!

By the way, MSNBC seems to be backing off what they said earlier, and again, the live feed looks just the same as before. Doesn't mean I'm giving up hope...!

Obama's giving a news conference right now, and from what I hear emanating from the living room, it sounds like he's talking in more concrete terms about PHYSICAL aid from the government. Just for those who say they're doing nothing, it might be worth listening to.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 28, 2010 9:11 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

"Except for three beaches in Louisiana, all the beaches are open and clean". So much for the entire Coast being "dead". Not that a lot (or most) of it won't be impacted, but do you see how the MSM gives you a narrow picture of what is real? The wetlands aren't dead yet--the outer reaches are, and if they can't keep the oil out, they will be, but we're not there yet. We should and are fighting to keep as much alive as possible, and there's a lot we can do yet to protect what we can and clean up what it's possible to clean up.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, May 28, 2010 11:09 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Also, remember Gulf War I, when Saddam knocked the caps off so many wellheads, and just left oil gushing all over the desert and burning so much that it turned the skies black over huge swaths of the landscape? That was oil under pressure, not being pumped out by mechanical means. If it were being pumped out, you could just turn off the pump. Wouldn't that have been sweet?

I remember that. Thanks to the info from yourself, and Nikki, I understand. Oil Rigs are something I have never given two thoughts about till now.

-------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Friday, May 28, 2010 11:19 AM

I hear ya, Oppyh. I bet we're ALL gonna know more than we ever wanted to about oil wells before this is over. :)

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Saturday, May 29, 2010 7:59 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm glad we were of some service, Oppyh. Sadly, I think it will all be forgotten a few years from now, and the cry of "Drilly, Baby, Drill" will gain supporters once again.

But that it were not to be so...

Raptor:

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President”

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.”

...so much for "togetherness"...this, instead, weakens us...

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 12:04 AM

MANGOLO

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 1:12 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

But I'll be goddamned if I'm going to try to lay the entirety of the disaster at the feet of Obama.

That award is yet to be determined, but BP seems to be the leading candidate.

( Remember when it was Haliburton concrete which was improperly poured, or some such, that was the early on favorite ? )

Whether a freak accident or not, we'll know soon enough. Likely it's already known, but we're not being told... But after BP, THE FEDERAL GOV'T gets dismal marks for failing to react quick enough, decisive enough or smart enough. This after all the fuss and fury over Katrina.... Eloquent speeches and photo ops aren't going to get the job done. We should have listened to those who live there, and done what they asked / begged to be done.

But to listen to Obama, nothing's been done w/ out the Federal Gov't first approving of it. So, while the CAUSE of the accident may not be D.C.'s, the reaction to it most certainly is.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 2:59 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Federal Gov't is showing it can't handled -anything. Billions of our tax $$'s, and what do we get ? All the bureaucracies, all the agencies, all the dept. heads and all the mountains of regulations have amounted to dick.

They can't even help an entire city when it's wiped off the face of the map.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 3:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

But I'll be goddamned if I'm going to try to lay the entirety of the disaster at the feet of Obama.

That award is yet to be determined, but BP seems to be the leading candidate.

( Remember when it was Haliburton concrete which was improperly poured, or some such, that was the early on favorite ? )

Whether a freak accident or not, we'll know soon enough. Likely it's already known, but we're not being told... But after BP, THE FEDERAL GOV'T gets dismal marks for failing to react quick enough, decisive enough or smart enough. This after all the fuss and fury over Katrina.... Eloquent speeches and photo ops aren't going to get the job done. We should have listened to those who live there, and done what they asked / begged to be done.

But to listen to Obama, nothing's been done w/ out the Federal Gov't first approving of it. So, while the CAUSE of the accident may not be D.C.'s, the reaction to it most certainly is.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

Finally, something(s) we can agree on!

Yes, the response should have been much more massive and much sooner. In situations like this, there really is absolutely no way anyone can do too much, or even enough.

It's a fucked situation. The well isn't plugged, the "top kill" failed, and here we still are, with more oil being pumped into the Gulf, likely until a relief well is completed.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 4:57 AM

JONGSSTRAW

This whole thing has just been ludicrous and intelligence insulting puppet theater. Every single thing that BP has tried, with Obama's so-called "direction", during the last 40 days was destined by previous experience to fail. The exact same things were tried 31 years ago for the Mexican spill, and that one was in fairly shallow water. They only got that one shut off with relief wells, but it took them nine months. Why have they wasted all this time with these known-to-fail futile efforts? They didn't work back then, so what ever made them think they'd work now? "They" say it will be late August or September before relief lines can be built. That really means October. Five months at 10,000 barrels a day spewing out. What do you think America's East Coast and Gulf Coast are going to look like by then? Hurricane Season arrives in Florida and the Gulf on Tuesday, June 1, and the National Weather Service is predicitng a very active season. That should certainly help ensure the widest possible dispersement and spread of the oil-water all over non-coastal areas too.

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:24 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Everything you said, JS. That Mexican disaster isn't known by many, so they don't get it, but it's been reported a couple of places.

I would say the answer is "PR"...tho' I'm pretty sure they DO want it stopped, for monetary reasons, I'm also pretty sure they knew none of those things would work, but did them anyway so people would't be madder at them than they ARE--maybe even so they'd gain some sympathy for "busting our asses trying". If they had done nothing but say "we know nothing will work until the relief wells" and sat on their hands, can you imagine the furor?? So they did things they knew about, and the publics hopes went up and down, up and down. It's pretty predictable.

I don't see this as being under Obama's "direction". They've been quick to tell us all along that only BP knew how to deal with the gusherfuck itself and they let them have a free hand. Pushed 'em, no doubt, but that's all. On the other hand, the demand that Obama do something about plugging it is insane to me; NOBODY apparently has a viable answer this deep, certainly not our government!

As for the cleanup, not the gusher itself, that's another matter. I given the administration points for some things, but for actual PHYSICAL ASSISTANCE, I have to agree with others; the resources to get some real physical help down there MUST exist, and should damned well BE there post haste.

I excuse them for the first few days, because initially it was the fire and loss of life, the BP lied for several days about the flow, but once we all knew the probably impact of the constant flow, physical help should have been one of the very first things that was given. In that respect, I cut them no slack.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Corps of Engineers has something in common with MMS...perhaps not in corruptness, but possibly in ineptness...

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

...so much for "togetherness"...this, instead, weakens us...

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 10:53 AM

BYTEMITE

All wells probably ought to be simultaneously built with relief wells, so in case one is lost, another can start which will also create enough drawdown in the aquifer to stop a leaky well.

The should also have redundant safety systems. Why they don't seems to be a combination of poor engineering, sloppiness, and laziness.

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 12:29 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You forgot "maximizing profit" (i.e., minimizing expenditures) as a motive for not drilling a relief well a the same time as the initial one, which I think is the major reason.

But yes, they ABSOLUTELY should be required to, among other things. Just getting a REAL MMS or its equivalent to do inspections, etc., would be a very good beginning!

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 1:08 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Finally, something(s) we can agree on!

Yes, the response should have been much more massive and much sooner. In situations like this, there really is absolutely no way anyone can do too much, or even enough.

It's a fucked situation. The well isn't plugged, the "top kill" failed, and here we still are, with more oil being pumped into the Gulf, likely until a relief well is completed.

The scene really was set for a damn near fairy tale ending. " Daddy, did you plug the hole yet? " , and then shortly after - HURRAH ! The well is plugged!! ALL PRAISE Obama! Is there NOTHING he can't do ??? !!

And then we woke up to the grim reality. ( Sorta reminds me of the dinner table scene from Angel... ) anyways... it was too good to be true.

1000's of oil wells off the Gulf coast, and this one , a mile deep, turns out to be the monster that bites us all.

I just want it stopped. Now. Don't care who gets the credit, I'll praise and vilify any and all as duly needed.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, May 30, 2010 3:26 PM

ANTIMASON

hey you know what we should do? stop oil drilling worldwide

..wouldnt you liberals love that? maybe we could use our military to do it

i mean sure, people would die as a result of the breakdown in infrastructure that would take place.. given that we are 80% reliant on oil for almost everything we do

but hey.. it would be a worthy sacrifice. if we have to break a few billion eggs to make a 'green' omelette, atleast its a means to an ends

right?

you know, accidents do happen. in the end, an investigation will reveal what the culprit was, and we can identify the cause of the error, and what we can do to prevent it from happening again.

but the earth will go on

im not interested in playing the 'blame game', in the end, whoever is found to be most liable will pay the consequences.. even if it means bankrupting BP

in all honesty, from what i can discern, this actually should fall under national defense.. and federal money should be appropriated to such things. maybe if we werent wasting hundreds of billions of dollars fighting wars overseas, we'd have the money and resources to defend our coastlines properly..

but eventually, an agreement between us and BP can decide how much money in reparations are in order.

in my mind, it just shows how incompetent government truely is, when it comes down to it; i guess Katrinas response may not have been due do Bush 'hating black people' afterall. but neverless, the Left will use this incident to demand more government control... so that the next time, God forbid, such an accident happens.. the government will not only be responsible for the event, but also for the total lack of response which will inevitably (never) follow

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Monday, May 31, 2010 9:14 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
you know, accidents do happen. in the end, an investigation will reveal what the culprit was, and we can identify the cause of the error, and what we can do to prevent it from happening again.

THEY ALREADY HAVE! They've found the MULTIPLE things which would have caused it; which one is irrelevant. In a functioning well, it wouldn't have happened. There was no outside stimulus like a hurricane or something.

They've discovered the MULTIPLE warning signs that were deliberately ignored. They've found the things that should have been fixed if proper inspections were done which were deliberately ignored. They've found without a doubt that the MMS let BP WRITE ITS OWN INSPECTIONS.

This was no "accident". It was deliberate ignoring of the potential for it happening and collusion to keep things from becoming known, in order to save and maximize profits, with no thought given to the possible consequences. Businesses do it all the time.

Quote:
...whoever is found to be most liable will pay the consequences. even if it means bankrupting BP

Oh, my, there it is: You do live in a fantasy world, or else you write what you do deliberately ignoring reality. What will happen cannot be “fixed” by anyone in our lifetimes, that’s simple fact. Once you destroy an ecosystem, even if there are no outside forces to impede it, it takes nature decades, sometimes millennia, to bring it back, even if that’s possible.

BP will do exactly what Exxon did with the Exxon/Valdez; fight paying any more than necessary tooth and nail, and tie up as much as humanly possible in courts for as long as possible so that those seeking redress run out of resources. It is STILL HAPPENING in Alaska, twenty years later.

Okay, I now grok it. You're either so enmeshed in believing what should be WILL be, only the government keeps it from being so, or else so determined to rile people up by stating obvious idiocy, that you are willing to post insanity such as this.

Given you're quite happy to say you view people as "individuals" and complain about lumping people into groups, yet consistently blame the government and "liberals" for everything under the sun and revile both quite consistently, your hypocrisy is as evident as your determination not to see reality. Either way, you are irrelevant to any meaningful discussion or debate on issues a far as I'm concerned.

I do believe you are a sockpuppet. My best guess would be Crappy or Wulf utilizing a sockpuppet to be able to make TRULY outrageous statements. There's a similarity in style to Crappy, and it wouldn't be a stretch for Wulf to create this style if he worked at it; all three refuse to recognize facts or reality; all three make such outrageous black-and-white, easily disproven statements that I would bet the motive is to trigger people into responses and nothing else. Whatever you may be, you're irrelevant for me in future.

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

...so much for "togetherness"...this, instead, weakens us...

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Monday, May 31, 2010 9:23 AM

America loves a winner!

Can anyone explain to me what great profit BP or anyone would have gained by cutting cost , and where, which would have possibly resulted in there being a safety issue that ended up being the worst " man made" disaster in - ever ?

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

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Monday, May 31, 2010 11:04 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Time is money. Time to drill a relief well, for example, is time lost from pumping unless they hire and train a completely separate group of workers--which workers they could "better" use in drilling another well for profit.

Time is money in that they'd have to stop drilling or delay drilling in order to implement numerous safety devices which would have avoided this.

Time lost to replace/repair the things that were wrong which "broke" or otherwise didn't stop the disaster was time lost pumping profits.

What you're not grasping is that they THINK in those terms; they think in bottom line: profits. What might result from their actions doesn't come into it, along with probably the laziness mentioned above and their own sense of infallibility, you know "It can't happen here".

There are already reports that they were told something would protect the will and dismissed it as taking too long.

By the way; given several new sigs (including mine), I don't recall ANYONE saying the government was doing "all that it could"...please provide proof. The argument that set you off was that they weren't doing "nothing" or "less than nothing". At least you showed your true ugliness in those posts, and hopefully no one will forget it--the fact that you would lash out at anyone who disagreed with you, without ANY self-control, speaks volumes.

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Monday, May 31, 2010 11:20 AM

http://www.politicolnews.com/bp-oil-ceo-compensation/

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Here you go:

Quote:
After watching last Sunday's episode of 60 Minutes that detailed BP's role in recent oil spill; I came away convinced it's all about the money; profits over safety. Scott Pelley (host of 60 Minutes) questioned the top computer specialist, on board the massive deep shore oil rig, Mike Williams..... Mike Williams described a weeklong of mistakes before the explosion; like an operator damaging a vital piece of equipment called an annular (gasket) when he accidentally bumped into a joystick which applied hundreds of thousands of pounds of pressure on a closed blowout preventer. This damage alone prevented a future legitimate pressure test. Later the workers found pieces of rubber in the fluid they were using, causing them to believe it came from the damaged annular. Although this finding was reported, the BP supervisors would have none of it because BP was behind schedule and everyone heard “Time is money. And this job is costing BP a million dollars a day," Williams said. Just weeks before the disaster; BP took complete control and ordered a faster pace of drilling. This action caused the bottom of the well to split open.

http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/weblogs/politcs-plus/2010/may/18/profi
ts-over-safety/. Hayward was compensated for increasing the companies operational performance and by increasing daily oil production however did Mr. Hayward increase the safety of BP Oil operations? We think not. In fact Mr. Hayward’s lack of attention to safety will cost the company tens of billions of dollars in the clean up and the pending lawsuits for what is being called the Biggest Oil Disaster Spill in History of the United States.

BP oil has gone head to head with Exxon in the race to produce the most profitable oil company in spite of ignoring proper best practices in oil drilling.

Quote:
A BP Plc investor has sued the company’s board of directors on claims its pursuit of profits at the expense of safety led to the Gulf of Mexico oil spill that could cost the company billions of dollars.

The lawsuit claims Chief Executive Officer Tony Hayward and other directors who sit on internal environmental and ethics panels failed to improve safety practices as promised by a settlement in an earlier shareholder lawsuit over a fatal explosion at BP’s Texas City refinery and oil leaks at company pipelines in Alaska.

“Even after a 2006 shareholder derivative proceeding brought as a last resort to require BP to address safety concerns was voluntarily settled out of court, these defendants continued to ignore and disregard safety issues concerning the company’s deepwater operations,” Lewis Kahn, of Kahn, Swick & Foti LLP, said in papers filed May 7 in New Orleans federal court.

BP directors “elected to cut costs, including safety and maintenance expenditures, in pursuit of profitable results to report to Wall Street,” Kahn said.

He claimed the defendants also lobbied state and federal agencies “to remove or decrease the extent of safety and maintenance regulation of the company’s Gulf operations, claiming, against all evidence, that ‘voluntary compliance’ would suffice to address safety and environmental concerns.”

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-10/bp-investor-sues-directors
-for-lapses-over-gulf-spill-update1-.html

It's not just some of us here who believe it, these guys (and far more) do, too. Answer your question?

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Monday, May 31, 2010 1:30 PM

ANTIMASON

Quote:
Niki2-

They've found the MULTIPLE things which would have caused it; which one is irrelevant. In a functioning well, it wouldn't have happened.

There was no outside stimulus like a hurricane or something.

They've discovered the MULTIPLE warning signs that were deliberately ignored. They've found the things that should have been fixed if proper inspections were done which were deliberately ignored. They've found without a doubt that the MMS let BP WRITE ITS OWN INSPECTIONS.

you mean a government agency, MMS, colluded with a private company.. resulting in negligence and malfeasance?? bizzarre..

im not saying BP didnt cut corners. the spill was in international waters, was it not? i can see why the government should be involved. the problem is government workers are rarely paid based on performance. maybe if we had private companies to do the regulating, market competition would ensure that the regulators were effective in doing their jobs

Quote:
This was no "accident". It was deliberate ignoring of the potential for it happening and collusion to keep things from becoming known, in order to save and maximize profits, with no thought given to the possible consequences. Businesses do it all the time.

'no thought given to consequences'? if you were BP, i doubt youd see this spill as positive PR. and typical for the left, the real enemy is private industry, 'maximizing profits', because "Businesses do it all the time". so what was your solution again Niki? lets follow the Interior Secretary Salazars sentiments and put the governments boot on the necks of BP and the oil industry... see how that works out for us

Quote:
Oh, my, there it is: You do live in a fantasy world, or else you write what you do deliberately ignoring reality. What will happen cannot be “fixed” by anyone in our lifetimes, that’s simple fact. Once you destroy an ecosystem, even if there are no outside forces to impede it, it takes nature decades, sometimes millennia, to bring it back, even if that’s possible.

oh.. thats complete propaganda. its a fact that no one person, can predict how long it will take for the ecosystems to recover. it could be 50 years, it could be half that; it could even happen in a decade with some clean up. obviously there are some serious consequences to the spill. but the oil did come from the earth, it was all natural, not refined in anyway. why werent we allowed to burn it off?

the earth is incredibly resiliant, its been around a lot longer then we have, and its been through worse then this. in my mind, this is really about mankind and his rape of mother earth, for these evil 'profits'..and how we need to accept government control of our lives to protect us from ourselves

Quote:
Okay, I now grok it. You're either so enmeshed in believing what should be WILL be, only the government keeps it from being so, or else so determined to rile people up by stating obvious idiocy, that you are willing to post insanity such as this.

whats so crazy about what i said? im upset about the accident! and i hope BP is held to task. i just dont think the solution is to demonize and overburden an already weak US oil industry. Obama last week had a press event at a solar plant, and gave a speech asserting the need for green energy, in order to protect the environment. well DUH! but those are decisions made in the private sector, not to be subsidized and monopolized by government and special interests. no one has the right decide for me, what energy source i choose to use- which is what this is all leading to

Quote:
Given you're quite happy to say you view people as "individuals" and complain about lumping people into groups, yet consistently blame the government and "liberals" for everything the sun and revile both quite consistently, your hypocrisy is as evident as your determination not to see reality.

i have friends who are liberals. does that mean they are not also individuals? but if they consistently come down on the left of issues, theres a name for that. now if their opinions become a matter of law, they pursue things which voilate my rights as an individual, like the Jim Crow laws, the New Deal, the Great Society.. affirmative action whatever- people lose their individuality. i have a problem with people being seen as voting blocks to cater to, such as 'the latino vote' or the gay/lesbian community etc. we're all individuals, we all have inalienable rights. so its been my contention that government is and has been the vehicle for coercion, whether it be self serving reasons, or on behalf of the special interests. whereas you, would probably argue it the other way around

Quote:
Either way, you are irrelevant to any meaningful discussion or debate on issues a far as I'm concerned

im not a democrat or a republican. i dont care about either party. im not someone who will blindly apologizing for Obama, or the democrats, and only find criticism with Bush and republicans. id like to believe you are not just a blind partisan idealogue, but i have yet to see you criticize Obama for the same things Bush was guilty of(namely deficit spending and wars). but dont debate me then.. i dont care. ill still respond to ya either way

Quote:
I do believe you are a sockpuppet. My best guess would be Crappy or Wulf utilizing a sockpuppet to be able to make TRULY outrageous statements. There's a similarity in style to Crappy, and it wouldn't be a stretch for Wulf to create this style if he worked at it;

nope, im my own man

Quote:
all three refuse to recognize facts or reality

reality is what you make it. we dont have liberty as truly exists, but have a collectivist tyranny that people such as yourself have demanded

Quote:
all three make such outrageous black-and-white, easily disproven statements that I would bet the motive is to trigger people into responses and nothing else.

yeahh... sometimes i like to get a rise out of you all

. but the freedom of self determination, and thereby self ownership, are intrinsic human rights. if life, liberty and property, as in your life(your spirit), the liberty to pursue whatever future you want, and the liberty to keep the product of you labors, is not black and white, then nothing is. i could then take anything from you that i deem, and i can lay claim to your present and your future. the history of the world is filled this kind of manipulation and control, and its called slavery. im not in favor of a grey area, when it comes to my body and my life, which is my property

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:31 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
if you were BP, i doubt youd see this spill as positive PR

PR doesn’t count where profits are concerned. People need gas/oil and will continue to buy it—and you can’t boycott PB, they make tons of things we’re not even aware they profit from. No, they did the usual “let’s cut corners here, nothing will happen” short-sightedness of HUMANS, not private enterprise. Many humans with power will ignore the chance something awful will result if they ignore safety, you have only to look around you to see it in practice.

And I blame MMS absolutely as much as I blame BP, don’t lump me with those you hate so easily. The above applies equally to them as to BP. For THEIR incompetence I blame the Dumbya Administration—not him specifically because he was just uncaring and ignorant. But those in his administration not only made it easy for this sort of thing to happen, THEY (meaning Cheney, etc.) colluded with Big Oil to maximize profits in lieu of caring about their responsibilities. They were having too much fun snorting coke off toaster ovens and jumping into bed with each other and BP; the administration at that time fostered both ineptness and laxness when it came to oversight, there’s no denying that.

I don’t think it was international waters, however; from what I found:

Quote:
At the time of the explosion, the Deepwater Horizon was on Mississippi Canyon Block 252, referred to as the Macondo Prospect, in the United States sector of the Gulf of Mexico, about 41 miles (66 km) off the Louisiana coast.

I’m not sure if that classifies as federal waters, but it’s all I could find.

Quote:
thats complete propaganda. its a fact that no one person, can predict how long it will take for the ecosystems to recover

That’s pure bullshit. Nobody can predict specifically, but we have previous instances from which we can extrapolate. The Exxon-Valdez has still left the fishing industry in Prince William Sound pretty much gone and there is still uncleaned oil, twenty years later, for example, and this is going to end up much, much bigger.

Beyond that, you’re unfortunately talking to an environmentalist. I could explain in detail, but I’m told some people don’t read my posts, given their length. JUST the wetlands, however, will take decades or a lifetime to rebound, if at all. Ecology is all connected; when you kill off, for example, the microscopic top inches of organisms which make the wetlands possible, all the wetlands affected die off pretty rapidly, and those organisms cannot survive this.

Of course the Earth can rebuild, but you do enough damage to her, she rebuilds differently; you do enough truly toxic damage to her, it overwhelms her ability to rebuild what was. There are so many examples in the world one has to be completely blind to say she can rebuild anything. Deserts created by deforestation, rainforests destroyed by clear cutting.
Oil is a complicated mixture of many components, and its fate and behavior on the sea surface largely depends on its initial properties and composition as well as on specific local environmental conditions. Spreading, evaporation, dispersion, and emulsification can rapidly alter oil properties within several hours, leading to formation of water-in-oil emulsion.
I could educate you on tons about habitat and ecosystem destruction, from which it will never recover.

Quote:
Habitat destruction and fragmentation is a process that describes the emergences of discontinuities (fragmentation) or the loss (destruction) of the environment inhabited by an organism. Marine ecosystems are experiencing high rates of habitat loss and degradation, and these processes are considered as the most critical threat to marine biodiversity [1]. It is estimated that every day between 1960 and 1995, a kilometer of coastline was developed, causing permanent losses of valuable habitats, such as coastal wetlands, seagrass meadows and rocky shores [2]. Approximately 20% of the world’s coral reefs were lost and an additional 20% degraded in the last several decades of the twentieth century, and approximately 35% of mangrove area was lost during this time.

http://www.marbef.org/wiki/Habitat_destruction_and_fragmentation

The Amazon rainforest is the most oft-cited example. Despite its vast size, the Amazon rainforest ecosystem faces environmental pressure that threatens its very existence. One of the primary threats is deforestation. Since 1970, over 200,000 square miles of Amazon rainforest have been lost due to deforestation. The rainforest soils are poor, lacking in fertility. Most of the nutrients are locked in the above ground plant growth. Due to the ecology of the ecosystem, recovery is difficult, if not impossible.

Let’s try other spills, such as the one in Northern Spain in 2002:

Quote:
In March 2006, new oil slicks were detected near the wreck of the Prestige which investigators found to match the type of oil the Prestige carried. A study released in December 2006 led by José Luis De Pablos, a physicist at Madrid's Center for Energetic and Environmental Research, concluded that 16,000 to 23,000 tons of oil remained in the wreck, as opposed to 700 to 1300 tons claimed by the Spanish government and that bioremediation of the remaining oil failed.

Mexico's Ixtoc 1 oil spill (the largest in the world until now—and which happened in much the same way, at a shallower depth), on the other hand, recovered quickly. It is the one hope, in a way, for the Gulf, where natural oil that seeps from the seabed releases the equivalent of one to two supertankers of crude in the Gulf of Mexico each year. The good side of having all that seepage out there is that there’s a huge population of microbes, bacteria that feed on petroleum products in the water and on shore. So that helps the recovery time. But currents and weather play their part, so the oil may round Florida and go up the Eastern Seaboard, so we can’t know how the colder waters there will affect recovery. You’re right in that we can’t know for certain, but some things can never recover.

For example, the Exxon Valdez, a much smaller spill than the Cantabria in Spain:

Quote:
Twenty years after the Exxon Valdez oil spill, pockets of oil — an estimated 16,000 gallons — remain buried in small portions of the intertidal zone. And herring, a cornerstone species of Prince William Sound's ecosystem, is one of two species "not recovering."

"The herring fishery was the pinnacle of seining," Cordova fisherman John Renner said. "It was the Super Bowl of fishing. The best, most competitive guys." Renner said. But now the herring are gone. The plight of the herring underscores how much of the Prince William Sound recovery remains a work in progress.

Pockets of oil -- an estimated 16,000 gallons, according to federal researchers -- remain buried in small portions of the intertidal zone hard hit by the spill. Seven distinct species, including sea otters, killer whales and clams, still are considered to be "recovering" from the initial effects of the oil. And herring, a cornerstone species of the Sound's ecosystem, is one of two species considered as "not recovering". Herring are a prime source of protein for marine mammals, birds and many fish. They also were a major source of income for Renner and other fishermen.

Studies have concluded that the crude oil took an initial toll on herring populations by tainting newly hatched herring, and killing or sickening adult fish as they swam to the surface to refill their air bladder. The weakened stocks were vulnerable to disease, and possibly overfishing during several years of harvests that followed the spill, according to Richard Thorne of the Prince William Sound Science Center. In 1991, Renner noticed that some of the herring ring never spawned at all. He cut them open, and found they appeared to have reabsorbed the eggs. “I had never seen anything like it and was horrified," Renner said.

There have been no herring harvests in the past decade, leaving Prince William Sound fishermen dependent on the vagaries of salmon fishing. Even when salmon runs have been strong, prices for pinks were often at rock-bottom levels. Many fishermen had financial problems as they struggled to pay off debts for boats and harvest permits. As the 20th anniversary of the spill arrives, hopes are fading for a natural recovery of herring.

(excerpts from http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008912109_exxonherrin
g24m.html)

Okay, so it was long after all. But no matter how many facts I provide, I’ll never get past the comfort of your self-delusion, I already know that. So delude away that the Earth can “fix” anything. As to oil, sure, it’s natural, but it’s not natural for it to come to the surface in quantities like this, and the Earth can’t deal with everything. You’re damned right we’ve raped her, but government control won’t do it...it can start the process in some cases maybe, but HUMANS have to learn and change their mindset—in time to stop the rape...which I seriously doubt they ever will. Most humans only worry about their own little lives; just like you, if it doesn’t affect them personally, screw it.

As for being a blind ideologue, you’ve obviously missed all the places I’ve gone after Obama for things I believe are wrong. Here, however, there are a number of people who DO blindly hate Obama, and some of them still stand by Dumbya, so I’m forced to take the other side. When Obama or the government screw up, I’m right there to agree, to express my disgust, and I HAVE. I’ve even started THREADS with negatives about the administration.

But no, you’re not impartial, you hate what you view as “libruls” and I’VE not seen you say anything good about them or their beliefs, nor much bad about Conservatives; you lump us all into a category quite happily, and I don’t see you dissing Republicans...but of course their leaders and many of them are for private enterprise, no matter what, and against government, no matter what, so they fit your ideology better, obviously.

I recognize you’re not in favor of any impingement on YOUR “life, liberty and property”, but our insistence that anything that limits that when your desire for it harms others is irrelevant. That’s what makes you irrelevant; you live in your own “paradise” and want to force it on everyone, even tho’ it would be HELL for millions of others.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:47 AM