Wikileaks by dreamtrove

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hee, hee, hee, he must be of the "School of PirateNews", the similarities are so obvious.

Didn't read the whole article, only skimmed, which was enough to give me the gist of it. Only thing I DID enjoy was the cartoon:

http://randomcartoon.s3.amazonaws.com/126271.JPG

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

...so much for "together"...this, instead, weakens us...

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:04 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I wonder which govt intelligence agency is actually running Wikileaks, foreign or domestic?

“Just the camera van. The brain-manipulation van. They say that Gitmo is nice this time of year."
-Rop Gonggrijp, Wikileaks Bunker

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:17 AM

Really Niki? That's your response? That's it?

Extremely biased, possibly nuts, yes, but I know how you feel about PN well enough to know that was a dismissal.

This guy cracked an encrypted military video about a cover-up and leaked it. However biased and crazy, what he did was very, very important and relevant. I think it musters more than a "Yawn. Liked the cartoon."

And I agree with DT. If he's even on the radar and people know his name, he's not being careful enough. What he did really WILL get him enemies, so it's not that paranoid.

This article by the New Yorker was also biased, but I find myself irritated by the response of the Army when contacted. That's not even damage control, that's "We're above damage control, how dare you peons? We're going to clam up now, you won't get anything else from us." Yeah, who serves who. Serving our country? Don't look like it from that.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:51 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Hacking military encryption is an intelligence operation.

How many "journalists" has the Pentagon massacred so far, in the non-stop 20-year Iraq War? Over 100 for sure.

You're not paranoid when They're really out to get you.

Kosher Operative Nikovich12 is probably an Israeli citizen, like Obama's gay White House chief of staff. All these US "wars" are proxy for the cowards of Israel. So of course Nikovich12 uses the standard Pentagon spin re Wikileaks.

Quote:

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

Includes The 8 Traits of A Disinformationalist

by H. Michael Sweeney
www.MKZine.com
Spring/Summer 2003

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism, reasoning -- simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'

www.whale.to/m/disin.html
www.911review.org/Wiki/RulesOfDisinformation.shtml
www.whale.to/b/sweeney.html

Examples & response:
www.proparanoid.net/truth.htm

'Conspiracy Theories' COINTELPRO thesis by Obama Czar
Obama's Kosher Czar Cass Sunstein demands false-flag domestic terrorism to blames patriot patsies
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41472&m=752465

Private Spies Stalk The Internet
http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1732682006

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:03 AM

I don't think Niki is that far, but I think she's very... Mainstream. Good for her, not so good for us theorists. The mainstream tends to laugh at us.

That's a really interesting idea on wikileaks though. It's good to be reminded that you should be wary of any source of information and their motivations. If wikileaks turned out to be a military mockingbird kind of thing, that would be huge.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:27 AM

And why DOES a supposedly notorious hacker/decryptor who's been charged in Australia and moves around the world to avoid arrest have an article in the damn New Yorker?

:o

You may be right, PN. That's suspicious.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:35 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Shit, PN, you didn't even include all 25 - and the ones you DID include, you participate in every single day. So are you a paid operative? Are you a Mossad agent? Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:56 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

My opinion is my opinion, I'm sorry if it offends, but yes, it was a snark at PN. I find people who look for conspiracies in everything usually "find" them, facts or no. I do believe in conspiracies, especially where the government is concerned, and I think something like Wikileaks is a good thing. In that, perhaps I am not completely "mainstream"...plus perhaps I've heard too damned many crackpot "conspiracy" theories (birthers, the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building, deathers, 9/11 conspiracies, climate change deniers--the ones who use ridiculous reasons to deny it I mean--the supposed conspiracy around the NY bomber, and on and on) in recent years; we've been rather inundated by them.

I just think this guy goes too far, and yes, I too wonder, if he's so secretive, how come the New Yorker?

Ahh, I see I'm an operative again. You forgot all the other titles, PN, and your cartoon is sooo dated; get some new material to diss me with, at least!

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:25 AM

Fair enough. I was just really, really surprised by your response.

I mean, I don't know if you saw a post Frem made some time back, but he said at one point when he was younger, he figured out that the weak link in child pornography rings is the pay per use websites, and that he worked with the current Detroit police chief Evans to crack the whole thing wide open.

He said that he knew, without question, that the people who the crackdown exposed were after him, and that he hid from them in hotel rooms that were under remodeling, essentially under the radar.

If you saw that, did you believe Frem then? Or was he full of it, and just a "wacky conspiracy theorist" like PN?

*I* believed Frem. Maybe that makes me the special kind of gullible. But if I can believe Frem, then I can believe the guy in the article. Both of them, though they do have bias, have been accurate enough in the past that I think they generally tell the truth, at least as well as they can see or know it. And that includes if they think if someone is gunning for them.

Though really, PN does potentially bring up a very good point, about where this guy got/refined his hacking and decryption skills, and if someone has hired him. After all, the most notorious con man and fraud in existence, Frank Abagnale Jr., eventually the FBI hired him to help them spot forged checks.

And then the follow up point of why, if he's so secretive, that he can give an interview for the New Yorker. I get the feeling that's what DT's real point for posting this was.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:33 AM

John,

Thanks for the video. I did wonder if he had some sort of sponsorship. Attacking CoS is Not something the casual citizenry would do, and there was one other in there that seemed to have the same slant, which I would say was perhaps propharma, so maybe it's a corporation, and not a government that has his back. Still, he has lots of enemies, and people with lots of enemies need friends, which was sort of my point earlier.

That he goes to the New Yorker wih the story also tells you something of the sided he is on, and the whole tone is very much like Seymour Hersh. It paints a collective picture, and while true, not the whole picture, you have to figure that it's already enough to get him killed. I particularly thought that the anecdotal flavor details were very unfortunate, as they told those who would try to kill him a little too much. Also, I worry that he seems to think they will arrest him or sue him. Mot exactly what I think he should be worried about. White haired half Asian with an Australian accent, he'll stick out like a sore thumb. So sure, he needs friends.

Byte,

That's pretty much spot on except I don't think the New Yorker is biased, I think they're pretty objective. Yioure headed on the road to being skeptical enough, but you have jot figure as this guy does that the military's principle mission is CYA, and after that, its nothing good. I'm sure John can elaborate. As for Niki, that was my thought to at first. She came in I think it was the same day our two principle republican operatives left, and she came in spouting the democratic party line, and quite forcefully, esp. for a newbie. That's usually a decent operative indicator. Of course, this would require that Obama or the Dems really had democratic party operatives, which I'm less sure of, and that said, shes been a pretty disloyal democrat. More like mike, or as geezer is to the GOP, less like rap or signy.

Niki, I was going to with "are you stoned" but I think I'll switch to this one: would you like to change your answer?

Now I figure you guys know by now that when I post a story I generally think its a really its a really important under-issue, so obviously i wasn't posting it just as commentary on the shooting of the Reuters reporters, which is tragic in itself, and worthy of its own thread which it undoubtedly had when that story initially broke.

Mike, topic?

ETA: PN, Byte, good point, on when they really are out to get you, still, he needs to be more careful, John, also good point on the military encryption, that bothered me too, you don't learn it in your mom's attic. The only thing that makes me not particularly suspicious about that is that my experience with military tech is that it's not that sophisticated, if you have this guys hacker past, you can probably do it from scratch.

ETA2: just saw Niki's latest... Niki, that's really what your going with?!

ETA3: byte, I suspect the reason why go public was to get more source material, but it strikes me as very dangerous. The story is rather complex and brings up some side issues that are discussion worthy, like whether a world thaf has this kind of level of investigation in it would be one where an operations like Frem's would be even possible, taking johns point on whether or not there is anyone big behind it. My guess is yes and no, that there Is no big insider controlling the operation, but that potentially they could get on this, and be doing it themselives, re:tptb, which I don't think is the case now, its more of something being done *to* them rather than by them, for now.. But the CoS case does play into that idea more than the Reuters case.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:41 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte: I have "known" Frem long enough that I have come to respect him, simple as that. He's consistent, and tho' I have my own opinions on some of what he writes, I credit him with being honest. I don't know the guy in the article, so I take what I read and judge from there. And I DO question why the New Yorker. That answer your question?

DT: No to both.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:47 AM

The question we've got to ask here is if two plus two makes five. We have potential sponsorship, we have a very revealing article about someone who's "secretive," and we have unusual ability to crack military encryption. I think the article said it only took him a few hours. Even if you're the smartest hacker ever, if you're homebrew, could you really do it that fast?

Let's look at this from another angle. Who would have something to gain from breaking the original story about the Reuters deaths and the civilian casualties? And who would have something to gain from this article?

You said he also broke something pro-pharmaceuticals, but I can't see how that could be connected with the big story, unless the big story distracts from the pro-pharmaceutical story... ACk. Maybe I'm making this too complicated.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:53 AM

Niki,

I take it that was not really what it looked like, I.e., you don't want to change your story and no you're not sticking to your story?

It's rather confusing, but I actually wasn't expecting the operative response from you, maybe from auraptor... Oh well, I'll pencil you in for "nothing to see here, move it along"

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:57 AM

Niki: Yeah. And, as PN just reminded me, not trusting this wikileaks guy until you know him is a wise choice.

And maybe not even then. Most of Madoff's investors for his Ponzi scheme were people he'd known for years.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 8:58 AM

Byte,

Your reaching. It said three months to crack the encryption. Also, military encryption algorithm is going to be military tech, the guy classification of "moderately difficult" is accurate. It's all contract work, which, back in the 80s used to suck, now it's decent, but doesn't compete with in house work from a serious group. Financial encryption would be an example of something that was "very difficult." and I don't concur on the skill set, as a programmer, I think this guy easily has those skills. Doesn't mean he's working for a military, doesn't mean he's not.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 9:06 AM

Byte,

Thanks for illustrating how the operative mentality works. Your initial response was very on target, Niki continues to come in with the relatively absurd position, which appears to support TPTB, And oppose investigative journalism, and she gets you to compromise with her absurd position. The reason I was giving her a chance to revise her position was that she said she didn't read the article, so I gathered that was her position, and she was reading my initial comment as being sarcastic, which I was afraid that it sounded like. Anyway, now I think she's just digging herself into a corner because she is afraid to admit that she read it wrong.

Overall, even if the guy is working with someone, he definitely gains some credibility for the fact that what he is doing can very possibly get I'm killed.

Read back to my comments re frem, I was actually curious to get his take on it, as well as john's, the two right off the bat I could think of who had experience with this sort of thing. Security I mean, the hacking I get.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 9:13 AM

Sure. I believe the veracity of what the guy is posting still, I'm just not sure what the motive is. I hadn't even thought there might be an ulterior motive.

This is why I like coming here. It keeps me on my toes.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 9:22 AM

Hey, DT, I'm just looking at some of the up and coming stuff wikileaks is saying they're having on wikipedia...

Quote:
Upcoming

Wikileaks have said they have video footage of a massacre of civilians in Afghanistan by the US military, perhaps the Granai massacre, which they are preparing to release shortly.[122][123] Julian Assange has said "right now we are sitting on history-making stuff".[124][125]

And when I go to "Granai massacre..."

Quote:
Wikileaks are preparing to release a video of an American attack in Afghanistan, which killed 97 civilians.[1] The Times has said that the video "is said to concern the so-called "Granai massacre", when American aircraft dropped 500lb and 1,000lb bombs on a suspected militant compound".[1]

Has wikileaks become famous after the Reuters case, or is the mainstream media (NY Times, New Yorker) pushing wikileaks?

Heh, I get the feeling this isn't what you wanted to discuss here though, DT. Sorry about that.

I do still think that what wikileaks has exposed is big stuff, important, and that by extension THEY are important. PN just threw me a nice big red herring and I was compelled to chase after it. I'll shut up now. :)

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 9:26 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

It was "no, I'm not stoned" and "no, I'm not changing my OPINION" (I have no story)

Yes, I did mistake your initial post for sarcasm. I have no problem admitting that, why would I?

I'm no operative, I gave my OPINION, nothing more.

I've already state my opinion, that I'm wary of conspiracy theorists.

Byte: Maddoff...good point.

...nothing to see here, move along now...

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 9:54 AM

I don't know what they have now, they've been known for a while, I tnk this actually started with financial stuff, speaking of Bernie mad off. Oh ipad, you have such a cruel sense of humor.

Anyway, the media chases sources of information. The press no longer head the infrastructure capable of competing with the Internet for the depth and immediacy of the news. That's why your heard so much about twitter on the news. It's a source of information for them, they wanted you to be on, to create that information.

In a way, wikileaks ids doing thte same thing. The reason for going public is to create more whistleblowers, dangerous, but at it's core, the same basic idea that papers are doing, or non papers, to get more content flowing in.

My dad was a reported for many years, and I can tell you, its not a well oiled conspiracy, it's much more random. On the one hand, they have a very serious sense of mission, to the truth, and on the other hand, they have typically clueless management telling them to chase leads that they think will sell.

It's really much more like Jon Stewart said "this is more like a bunch of six year olds playing soccer than like a master plan."

It's also entirely possible that Assange is doing the same thing here, and he is being fed leads, and then chasing after them, not because he's in a conspiracy, but because people who want something investigated are throwing a piece of story his way in hopes that he will pick up on it.

John has a strong point here: we have tons of reporters in this war and we never get any reports at all. What's up with that? I suspect he's right about the spying, I wouldn't be surprised if Assange was at least at some point a spy.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 10:32 AM

Real operatives skew the story, sp the debate in msm: "Army spokespeople insisted that there was no violation of the rules of engagement. At first, the media’s response hewed to Assange’s interpretation, but, in the ensuing days, as more commentators weighed in and the military offered its view, Assange grew frustrated. Much of the coverage focussed not on the Hellfire attack or the van but on the killing of the journalists and on how a soldier might reasonably mistake a camera for an RPG"

"He had come to understand the defining human struggle not as left versus right, or faith versus reason, but as individual versus institution. As a student of Kafka, Koestler, and Solzhenitsyn, he believed that truth, creativity, love, and compassion are corrupted by institutional hierarchies, and by “patronage networks”—one of his favorite expressions—that contort the human spirit. He sketched out a manifesto of sorts, titled “Conspiracy as Governance,” which sought to apply graph theory to politics. Assange wrote that illegitimate governance was by definition conspiratorial—the product of functionaries in “collaborative secrecy, working to the detriment of a population.” He argued that, when a regime’s lines of internal communication are disrupted, the information flow among conspirators must dwindle, and that, as the flow approaches zero, the conspiracy dissolves. Leaks were an instrument of information warfare."

Page eight actually has a fascinating breakdown of the technology.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 11:27 AM

Quote:
Mike, topic?

Not yet. Haven't read the article yet. Would like to before commenting on its contents.

Meanwhile, just pointing out that PN himself shares all of the traits of a government operative, at least the ones he's listed.

Far as I know, PN is WikiLeaks...

Just sayin'.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 2:56 PM

Pffth, doubting his veracity is rather different from dismissing him entire - why is it that when someone gets on this topic most folk tend to pull in an all or nothing direction with it ?

I've pointed out repeatedly that there's really no such thing as some great, grand, all-encompassing conspiracy, as humans are generally incapable of actually conspiring beyond their own monkeysphere and not very bloody good at it, thing is, when you throw in office politics, ass covering, and various people trying to exploit what's goin on, and ponder that all of them have the same codified Authoritarian mindset, it can give the APPEARANCE of a grand conspiracy, but only that.

And it ain't, no more than crabs walking in lockstep are a hive mind - it's simply that they have the same response to the same stimulus input cause their minds and goals are so simple and similar, and so too with Authoritarian sociopaths, and once you understand this, their behavior is both utterly predictable, and completely comprehensible.

And THAT, is when you start being able to set the internal factions of such a thing against each other without them realizing it, even if you tell em right to their faces that you're doing it, cause that mindset prevents them from ever questioning or believing how easy it is to manipulate them.

As for those who do it, imma be honest, most of the folk involved on the the other end, the breakers - they are flat freakin nuts.

And why, cause there's some things in this world so awful, so mind-bendingly horrific, that the very knowledge of them can pyschologically damage a person, which is why I'll only point one in the right place to look, cause I have moral issues with foisting that kinda thing on unwilling people.

So for many activists of this stripe, them actually knowing some of this stuff, a lot of em are also hanging on to sanity itself by tattered threads, if they're hangin on to it at all - I mean, some things you can see or witness, how DO you face it, something so horrific it shouldn't even exist ?
Lovecraft knew, in a roundabout sort of way, what that can do to a persons mind.

There's also the Crazie Eddie and Bigfoot effects - when EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE HARD EVIDENCE, the whole damned thing is so woo-woo weird that no one WANTS to believe it, the same way they dismiss an obvious car thief in action by comforting themselves with the lie that they probably just locked their keys in there, so they don't have to face it, don't have to do something, and can get on with their life.

It's not malice, so much as it is a defense that allows them to remain sane in a world gone rabid.

But again, there's a difference between dismissing, and doubting, and the latter, especially someone who's a bit cracked in the head from their experiences down the rabbit hole, is something you *should* do, because their very sense of reality can get fucked up after a while, and as such any claims they make damn well should be independantly verified, or you wind up like PN chasing phantoms around while the real crooks laugh at you.

Oh, and DT, look man, it's obvious you got personal issues towards Nik that ain't got a goddamn thing to do with whatever topic we happen to be on at the moment, and you really need to re-examine your own behavior in that light, cause it was offensive as hell the last time you let it run off with you, and my opinion of that shit ain't improved a whit since.

-Frem
"Paranoia is a very comforting state of mind, if you think they're out to get you, it means you think you matter."

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 3:27 PM

First blush on what I've read of the article so far? He's paranoid. But he's probably not paranoid ENOUGH.

No matter where you go, disaffected soldiers, executives, line workers, anyone who feels unappreciated or underutilized, they'll have their ways of getting the dirt the company doesn't want known, and they'll find ways of getting it to the right people. Assange seems to be Ground Zero of "the right people".

Why do a New Yorker article? Simple: If TPTB want you dead, you're dead, basically. UNLESS you can take away their leverage. At what point does killing you actually work AGAINST your agenda, and play into theirs? And frankly, as people who I assume HAVE seen "Serenity", it's a damned shame I have to remind anyone what made Mal's death not happen; once the secret's out, killing the messenger just looks tacky!

So this guy had the bright idea to open up a dirty-laundry clearinghouse of sorts. Good on him. He may very well be the new Woodward & Bernstein. Fate knows we could use a few people willing to uncover the truth and report it. It's a sure thing the "news" won't do it anymore!

More power to him, but he probably won't live to retirement...

Oh, and like Frem said, you don't have to like him or even trust him, but if he's putting out truth, you kinda need to listen to him.

I don't see any reason the U.S. would want that Apache footage released, unless the administration was looking for an outraged reaction that would FORCE us out of Iraq and Afghanistan. Other than that, I can't see anyone wanting it released, because it paints us in a very bad light.

And speaking of which, the video IS disturbing, but it's probably not gory or disturbing ENOUGH. Here's the reality of war: If you can even conceive of your enemy as a human being, you've lost. You MUST be able to laugh while you kill them, or you'll go insane. That's the pure hell of war - it dehumanizes everything and everyone. It takes all the humanity out of the people you must kill, and as a result, out of you yourself.

We want to live in a world where wars are "clean" and there are no horrific collateral kills. That world does not exist. War is always horrific; the only thing we've cleaned up is the images we see of it.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 3:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
No matter where you go, disaffected soldiers, executives, line workers, anyone who feels unappreciated or underutilized, they'll have their ways of getting the dirt the company doesn't want known, and they'll find ways of getting it to the right people. Assange seems to be Ground Zero of "the right people".

I can't even put into words just how badly being in THAT position can suck, especially when you're a fairly discreet person to begin with...

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 3:48 PM

Yeah, Frem, but as I see it, he's doing a great service by being that guy AND by having an actual outlet for the stuff he gets.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:21 PM

Frem,

I agree that it's more a heard mentality than a conspiracy. I suspect there are lots of little conspiracies, but any big one would be copied by other would be conspirators.

I think that ego plays a large part in the various authoritarian power groups, that's something that can be manipulated, is that what you're referring to?

I got the argument was lovecraftian before you mentioned his name, thought of mentioning that. Of course, he got a lot of flack, or does now, for using the fear memes of his day. Still, I'm not sure I buy it. My journeys down the rabbit hole don't effect me that way, perhaps it's the madness... Maybe as a kid this effected me. Still, okay, I'll grant that I avoid slaughters and torture videos. I know some people who avoid a lot more, but I've also been insane. I'm not at all convinced that you can get from here to there by that route.

Crazy Eddie? (being originally from philly, I recall the actual crazy Eddie. His prices were INSANE!!!) oh, and then he went to jail because his brother was stocking the store with stuff that Eddie would then sell...

Oh, and I have no issue with Niki, that's absurd, I get along fine with Niki. The above jabs at niki were an attempt at humor. Maybe you missed the part where I called her a Zionist jihadist triple agent? I did want her to give serious thought to this matter, which she didn't do, I'm not about to cancel her credit cards over it.

Whozit is another matter, ;). Seriously, i don't have problems with users, but if i did, it wouldnt be Niki. Even Wulf doesn't really get to me. He takes some weak positions, and I can get intensely irritated at the victim mentality whining, but I don't dislike Wulf. I know you have some issues with users, so do us both a favor and skip the moralistic lecture.

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:28 PM

Quote:
Crazy Eddie? (being originally from philly, I recall the actual crazy Eddie. His prices were INSANE!!!) oh, and then he went to jail because his brother was stocking the store with stuff that Eddie would then sell...

Near as I can recall, the "Crazy Eddie solution" came from a book by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle, "The Mote In God's Eye". The Moties (the inhabitants of a distant planet orbiting a distant star known as the "Mote" in a constellation called "God's Eye") had a history of building themselves into ever-escalating wars, in a never-ending cycle, warring themselves into oblivion, then building their societies up again, only to repeat the cycle. What was needed was a Crazy Eddie solution, so called because one Motey, "Crazy Eddie", had decided to set sail in a lightsail-powered spacecraft, in hopes of finding someone who could help them break the cycle. It was outrageous, outlandish, couldn't possibly work... but what did they have to lose? They were almost at the end of another cycle, so were already doomed to crash their society and lose everything once again.

Lots of parables in that book. Maybe it should be required reading...

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:35 PM

Mike

You seem to see it very much the way I do, but you make a very good point on don't shoot the messenger, that undoubtedly a large part of it, he wants this not to be about him, they are already after him, now they have less of a reason.

Frem makes a good point about the conspirators though, if you release this, you now have a larger audience that knows your the guy, including more conspirators, perhaps some folks who were too dumb to figure it out on their own, and because its not a grand conspiracy, but is in fact a large number of disconnected authoritarians, they don't learn from each other about you, so while he may have decreased his risk form the ones who were chasing him, he will now have new goons chasing him.

I agree about the video, or I did at first, but then I got it. When Abu Ghraib broke, I saw some stuff on soldiers dismembering Iraqi children, removing digits, teeth, male organs, and so on. If was bloody gory and hell. And I thought why get upset over stress positions when cutting off childrens fingers?

Frem is undoubtedly right about this: people have different horror thresholds. Whether or not it can made you insane, it certain can make you stop watching. If the audience stops watching, then there is no audience. You just can't hit them with the reality, because no one will watch, or if they do, no one will forward it. I didn't pass on videos and pictures taken by Iraqis of our guys torturing people off base mainly because I knew that no one wanted to see that.

So you lure them in with the minimum horror required. If this doesn't do it, they can dig deeper and find more.

ETA: That probably predates the guy in Philly ;) I like Larry Niven, I haven't read that. Thanks for point it out.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 7:16 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I've pointed out repeatedly that there's really no such thing as some great, grand, all-encompassing conspiracy, as humans are generally incapable of actually conspiring beyond their own monkeysphere and not very bloody good at it, thing is, when you throw in office politics, ass covering, and various people trying to exploit what's goin on, and ponder that all of them have the same codified Authoritarian mindset, it can give the APPEARANCE of a grand conspiracy, but only that.

And it ain't, no more than crabs walking in lockstep are a hive mind - it's simply that they have the same response to the same stimulus input cause their minds and goals are so simple and similar, and so too with Authoritarian sociopaths, and once you understand this, their behavior is both utterly predictable, and completely comprehensible.

And why, cause there's some things in this world so awful, so mind-bendingly horrific, that the very knowledge of them can pyschologically damage a person, which is why I'll only point one in the right place to look, cause I have moral issues with foisting that kinda thing on unwilling people.

So for many activists of this stripe, them actually knowing some of this stuff, a lot of em are also hanging on to sanity itself by tattered threads, if they're hangin on to it at all - I mean, some things you can see or witness, how DO you face it, something so horrific it shouldn't even exist ?

Bang on, BlackNavarre, and precisely how I see it.

As to

Quote:
Oh, and DT, look man, it's obvious you got personal issues towards Nik that ain't got a goddamn thing to do with whatever topic we happen to be on at the moment, and you really need to re-examine your own behavior in that light, cause it was offensive as hell the last time you let it run off with you, and my opinion of that shit ain't improved a whit since.

You remember that? I thought I was the only one who did, and only because it was a personal exchange. Nice to know someone else does, too, thank you. I try to be polite, despite past experience, but it doesn’t mean I’ve forgotten his feelings toward me. Just sayin’...

Quote:
Oh, and I have no issue with Niki, that's absurd, I get along fine with Niki. The above jabs at niki were an attempt at humor. Maybe you missed the part where I called her a Zionist jihadist triple agent? I did want her to give serious thought to this matter, which she didn't do, I'm not about to cancel her credit cards over it.

I don’t think so, DT. Your responses in many threads pretty much “out” you in that respect, and what Frem remembers REALLY outted you. Maybe you just don't see it. That’s okay, tho’, we’re civil to one another now, mostly, which is all that’s important. You do misrepresent me, however. I gave it serious thought, as much as I feel it deserves. I said I "skimmed" the article; your remark that I hadn't even read it is also fallacious. Again with those flat statements and assumptions; they tend to get in the way of me paying much attention. I got no “humor” from most of your remarks.

Quote:
I think that ego plays a large part in the various authoritarian power groups

Speaking of which, “right on DT”. It goes right along with the way I feel, that some people can’t look the real ugliness in the eye, feel helpless, and it makes them feel better to think THEY see what others don’t. I am talking about the whackos, mind you, not people who discover real conspiracies.

On a separate matter, I LOVE Larry Niven...or at least some of what he writes.

Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

...so much for "together"...this, instead, weakens us...

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 7:28 AM

Quote:

Frem makes a good point about the conspirators though, if you release this, you now have a larger audience that knows your the guy, including more conspirators, perhaps some folks who were too dumb to figure it out on their own, and because its not a grand conspiracy, but is in fact a large number of disconnected authoritarians, they don't learn from each other about you, so while he may have decreased his risk form the ones who were chasing him, he will now have new goons chasing him.

Exactly - and that's the double-edged sword of it. On the one hand, you have MORE people now chasing you; on the other hand, they're less likely to be very good at it, and more likely to fuck up and tip their hand. PLUS, you've also got your name out there - and inside any conspiratorial movement, there's always that one guy with a pang of conscience, who can tip you off, and maybe even give you evidence of what's coming your way, and who is sending it at you. With that, you disarm them one more time, AND make them look even worse in the process.

Way I see it, this guy just HAVING this stuff made him a target for assassination. Getting it out there doesn't make him MORE of a target; in fact, it makes it less worthwhile to kill him. In killing him, he becomes a martyr, more people start digging, etc. Better if he were caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy. Or both. ;)

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 9:43 AM

Quote:
I don’t think so, DT. Your responses in many threads pretty much “out” you in that respect, and what Frem remembers REALLY outted you. Maybe you just don't see it. That’s okay, tho’, we’re civil to one another now, mostly, which is all that’s important. You do misrepresent me, however. I gave it serious thought, as much as I feel it deserves. I said I "skimmed" the article; your remark that I hadn't even read it is also fallacious. Again with those flat statements and assumptions; they tend to get in the way of me paying much attention. I got no “humor” from most of your remarks.

Agreed, DT should definitely not quit his day job and go into comedy.

Frem: Defending the fair maidens, good sir knight?

If I may, what I've seen and my take on this?

I believe DT when he says that it isn't personal. You might know that I talk to DT via e-mail. He has sometimes talked about the contention between the two of you, and I can say it's definitely political, and not personal.

So, what I glean, is that politically, you kind of frustrate him. You aren't the complete-and-always Democrat, but you are very strongly aligned Democratic, which means that on occasion, the Right-wing people are able to pull you into some very partisan debates.

He also thinks you might like socialism a little bit, which he doesn't like, at all, but I don't know if I've ever really got any extremely socialist vibes from you. I get them more from Sig, Rue, or heck, even myself or Frem, since none of us particularly like capitalism. But anyway, that's beside the point.

Basically, the frustrating thing was the partisanism. When you started to frustrate him DT did make some callous and/or offhand remarks. You picked up on that, and the frustration, and felt defensive. When you felt defensive, you kinda sorta had a tendency to see the very worst in his posts.

You probably felt like DT was following you around the board attacking you. I can say DT felt the same way, because he honestly thought he was just talking, and that you were attacking him for things he didn't intend.

I didn't actually see the moment Frem might be talking about, I'm not sure, was DT pushing really hard in an argument? Well, in any case. People yelled at DT, DT felt betrayed, so he left for a while.

I can also say that he really doesn't think you're an Operative. That WAS kidding... Although it fell flat.

He told me that if you were an "Operative," you'd be really adhering to the military take. You're not, but it surprises both of us that you weren't more interested in this guy at the beginning, especially because somewhere in this thread you mentioned how you're glad someone is out there leaking and breaking stories like this. Unless I've got you confused with someone else, even still, your response was "surprising" not "operative." DT was probably poking more fun at PN than you with that.

Sorry if anything in this post was presumptive of me, but I hope it clears things up.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 10:56 AM

He did go over the line, Byte, and I held my tongue about the specifics of it cause it struck me there were other issues at work there and he was simply taking it out on a single person, which may not have been fully intentional - but he did go that far, bringing the flamethrower to even unrelated threads and getting damn personal and offensive about it, the same way he throws a temper tantrum when other people don't cut their own arguments down to soundbite size for his convenience, and when he got sandblasted for demanding it, out came the flamethrower and I tore a strip off him without explaining why in the hopes he would figure it the hell out on his own without *having* to be told.

The crowner was the hypocrisy of "I don't have time to read your book-long arguments" (paraphrased) followed by a long diatribe which took as long if not more, and followed by yet another refusal to even glance at the refutation cause it wasn't a convenient little soundbite - THAT pissed me off.

I just tried to be a little discreet about it rather than get into a flamewar with someone who has plenty of time to throw the flames, but conveniently none to read any response unless it validates their own beliefs.

Clear enough ?

As for Crazy Eddie, here's a capsule explaination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_in_God%27s_Eye#Meet_Crazy_Eddie

Quote:
Thus, the Moties have become fatalistically resigned to the never-ending Cycles. Only a mythical character called "Crazy Eddie" believes there is a way to change this, and any Motie who comes to believe a solution is possible is labeled as a "Crazy Eddie" and deemed insane.

When dealing with folks who believe that this is the end-all, be-all, way-things-are, and way-things-are-gonna be, when you inform them of even the POTENTIAL for another way, you get mentally labelled by them a "Crazy Eddie" and dismissed out of hand by sheer reflex, making discussion with those folk pointless.

Trust me, raise the topic of Anarchism around here, and no matter what most folk type, no matter how they word it or the bizarre mental convolutions they use to say it, most of it comes out "CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE!!"
..and that's just freakin that.

Oh, and Niki ?

Quote:
I am talking about the whackos, mind you, not people who discover real conspiracies.

One essential problem is that, a lot of the time, those whackos ARE the ones who discover real conspiracies - which tends to lead to unfortunate assumptions, it does...

-Frem

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 11:13 AM

I must not have seen it, then. Or, if I browsed the threads, I might not have stuck around long enough to see it go bad.

When that whole River6213 vs Sig thing erupted, I wasn't even aware of it going on. I was surprised when DT showed me I'd actually posted in the thread, I hadn't even remembered being on the RWED at that time (think it was two Januaries ago).

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 6:51 PM

Niki

Try not to take me so seriously. Usually I get annoyed at positions, not people. I take issue with the racism, not Wulf ranting. I'm not angry at you, sorry if it sounded that way. When I'm angry at someone, I know it, and let them know it. I did get very annoyed with Citizen however, to my shame. ironically, a fellow Taoist. I'm only human.

On ego, good points, also the ego of the conspirators themselves. There's a great deal of mwahahaha evil genius, or at the very least a sense of intellectual superiority gone mad, where they think they have outsmarted the world, and hubris ensues. Ego can not admit that it's wrong, which plays a big part in a lot of neocon fuck ups, like notice how were still in Iraq in spite of everything that we were told going into Iraq was wrong. Sure, some people at the top may have other reasons for being there, but there we a lot of people involved in the invasion. Maybe this plays into a collective ego problem.

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 8:10 PM

Frem

I read everything addressed to me, but i just don't have time to read all RWED. In "RWA" niki posted an actual book, Geezer, then I, read it. Niki said some damned offensive things back then, though to her credit, she admitted she did not read my posts before flaming them, but it was not her finest hour. I make suggestions about ways we all could clmmunicate, feel free to ignore them, but I'm not on a vengeance kick, I don't bear a grudge or sabotage users. Frem, you've ticked me off a lot more than Niki. River isn't alone in saying pretty choice things about me, yet I'm not attacking them. Sure, I get into it sometimes, who doesn't? But I get over it.

Anyway, I'm not the topic here. I'm more interested in Assange, and what this means for the future of society. How long until authorities start using this sort of crowd sourced intelligence gathering?

I don't know if you read my earlier posts on this thread Frem, but I mentioned that I thought that it was possible that such networks might undermine real resistance to authority such as yours, I was curious to get your take on that. I meant it when I said this is a double edged sword.

Sure, I would say that absolutely assange is resistance fighter in the information war, and I think that he's one of the good guys, but his arsenal could be used by anyone and to what ends? Any resistance, or even legit organizations, political, corporate, could be undermined at the whim of the controllers, by use of similar systems.

What if instead of being a fair service for the people with a slight tilt towards social justice something like wikileaks was run by TPTB? What might they be able to do with that power, and what would the target corporation of political group be able to do in defense?

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Wednesday, June 2, 2010 8:25 PM

Frem

Thanks for the Crazy Eddie definition

Quote:
One essential problem is that, a lot of the time, those whackos ARE the ones who discover real conspiracies - which tends to lead to unfortunate assumptions, it does...

Very true. Speaking of my passed losing it at users, you missed my war with pirate news, which came right as I started. As I got to know John I realized that in the midst of his mad rants was some really excellent research.

My experience with schizophrenia has taught me a lot about the brain, and while a lot of Johns lunacy is an act, Theres a definite neurochemical connection between focus and what most would consider insanity,

Dopamine is charged with the role of focus in the brain, and an excessive amount of it is indicated in psychosis, because dopamine competes with serotonin, the happy "perspective" NT. Also, Gaba is generally involved in interrupting recursive rumination processes before they get too involved. These processes can lead to new insights and incredible depth of analysis, but also lead to paranoia, and ritualistic thinking, where the patterns are etched into the brain where they can resurface without being directly called by any thought process, giving rise to dwelling thoughts or obsessions, and ultimately hallucinations both mental and sensory, on any of the five senses.

That was not a psychoanalysis of pirate news, just a comment on mental mechanisms in general

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 3:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I'm more interested in Assange, and what this means for the future of society. How long until authorities start using this sort of crowd sourced intelligence gathering?

I think they probably already are. I mean, Assange readily admits that his source for the Reuter's video was someone in the military. Frem calls that "feeding the fringe."

It's easy to see one big connected conspiracy, as you mentioned, but there's likely factional warfare between certain authoritarian-type communities, within intelligence and between intelligence and military. Probably the Reuter's video is someone in one of the intelligence communities getting the upper hand and handing the army their ass. Punishing them, possibly for not going along with something the intelligence community had planned, or for trying to undermine their plans.

But I think you mean more in terms of TPTB using a group like wikileaks, deceiving them into thinking they're independent, and feeding them pro-TPTB spin stories, or using them to attack enemies.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 4:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

As for Crazy Eddie, here's a capsule explaination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_in_God%27s_Eye#Meet_Crazy_Eddie
Quote:
Thus, the Moties have become fatalistically resigned to the never-ending Cycles. Only a mythical character called "Crazy Eddie" believes there is a way to change this, and any Motie who comes to believe a solution is possible is labeled as a "Crazy Eddie" and deemed insane.

When dealing with folks who believe that this is the end-all, be-all, way-things-are, and way-things-are-gonna be, when you inform them of even the POTENTIAL for another way, you get mentally labelled by them a "Crazy Eddie" and dismissed out of hand by sheer reflex, making discussion with those folk pointless.

Trust me, raise the topic of Anarchism around here, and no matter what most folk type, no matter how they word it or the bizarre mental convolutions they use to say it, most of it comes out "CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE CRAZY EDDIE!!"
..and that's just freakin that.

Oh, and Niki ?
Quote:
I am talking about the whackos, mind you, not people who discover real conspiracies.

One essential problem is that, a lot of the time, those whackos ARE the ones who discover real conspiracies - which tends to lead to unfortunate assumptions, it does...

-Frem

Thanks for the encapsulation, Frem; it didn't even occur to me to look for one online! :)

And yes, sometimes the ONLY solution is a Crazy Eddie solution. Once you've proven time and again what DOESN'T work, it's time to try something else.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 4:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I'm more interested in Assange, and what this means for the future of society. How long until authorities start using this sort of crowd sourced intelligence gathering?

I think they probably already are. I mean, Assange readily admits that his source for the Reuter's video was someone in the military. Frem calls that "feeding the fringe."

It's easy to see one big connected conspiracy, as you mentioned, but there's likely factional warfare between certain authoritarian-type communities, within intelligence and between intelligence and military. Probably the Reuter's video is someone in one of the intelligence communities getting the upper hand and handing the army their ass. Punishing them, possibly for not going along with something the intelligence community had planned, or for trying to undermine their plans.

But I think you mean more in terms of TPTB using a group like wikileaks, deceiving them into thinking they're independent, and feeding them pro-TPTB spin stories, or using them to attack enemies.

Any lest anyone think "they'd never do anything like that", I'd merely submit the actions ADMITTED TO by the last administration (and almost certainly done by others, just never admitted to, including the present one) - the practice of paying "journalists" and "experts" to expound administration positions and talking points in the mainstream media (and YES, I'm definitely including FauxNews in that "MSM" descriptor!).

They've been caught red-handed doing it already, they STILL do it, so there's no reason to imagine they wouldn't use this outlet if they got any chance to do so. And, if they were caught doing it, it would further serve their agenda by discrediting WikiLeaks. Two birds, one stone, and all that...

Now, having said that, I still find WikiLeaks a valuable source and service. Think of it as a barometer of the public conscience, AND as a kind of "bulletin board" for story ideas. Throw something up on WL, and see if it sticks. See if anyone grabs the thread of a story and starts unraveling it. Better still, see if a whole bunch of people start unraveling it from all sides, working their way down to the real story, the real truth.

View it that way, and it becomes more valuable, and lessens the chance of its misuse by TPTB.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 6:08 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

As I have said before, I have let that go past and speak civilly to DT as if nothing happened. I'm surprised you don't remember, because as I recall correctly, you came in after he left and explained what might have been behind his actions at the time. Obviously you are friends, Byte, so you only hear his side of what happens unless you are here to read it for yourself. But it was pretty obvious to all at the time, and I won't get into it further.

Perhaps all you're saying now is true as well as what you said back then. It matters not. The "edge" has remained on his side toward me, whether he's aware of it or not, tho' he's never returned to that kind of ugliness. That's enough for me. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I disagree; that's how it's always been and always will be. But when someone misrepresents me blatantly then dismisses my attempt at correcting those misrepresentations, then goes on to deliberately lie about me, whether it's defensiveness or, in my opinion, a desire to clarify things and get on some kind of footing where we can communicate, I will.

Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 7:34 AM

Byte

Yeah, they could do that. I was thinking further ahead, like a CIA Dept of Wikileaking, that, instead of having spies, just encourage people to squeal on each other, and to do so to some CIA website, essentially crowdsourcing the CIA. Or whatever institution that collectively are toe, TPTB.

Mike,

yes, tptb will try to crush wikileaks, but What I just said to byte, what if they take over the idea? They could run it as a means of tearing apart any independent or grass roots movement.

If that happens, we would need some way of surviving that situation.

Niki,

You lost me, but if I yelled at you, sorry, I was probably upset over something, and it was quite probably something that had nothing to do with the board that was really setting my frame of mind. Anyway, I have nothing against you, there are some posters that annoy me on the board, but your not one of them, even so, I try not to let that interfere. Though, i admit that i grant more leeway to users with psychiatric issues or history than people who i think are entirely sane, that probably is related to my own history.

Anyway, lets bury that hatchet if there was one, maybe we can get back to the topic at hand?

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 7:51 AM

The only thing I can think of to combat something like that is my standard fall back, which is self-sufficient sustainable communities.

I imagine the TPTB in this situation is able to encourage people to squeal on each other by either offering a reward for those who do, or offering punishment to people who don't. Coincidentally, I'm in a conversation with Hero in another thread about where and how obstruction of justice applies.

Anyway. But if you have a community separate and capable of operating independent of TPTB, they might also not be as swayed by the offer of reward or the threat of punishment.

Maybe you could also jump on the old tv-wave frequencies, which military has gobbled up, and pose as authority figures and communicate via code.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 8:07 AM

DT: The issue as I see it is that the CIA (and the U.S. intelligence apparatus as a whole, really) is so very, very bad at it, historically speaking. They generally do such a ham-fisted job of it that they end up inadvertently HELPING the very people they're trying to destroy or discredit. Take Kent State, for example. It's now been admitted that there was indeed an "operative" plant among the student protesters, and the idea was that he was tasked with giving the ROTC and Guard troops the "justification" they needed to open fire on unarmed protesting hippies. And just look at how well THAT turned out for the establishment!

And that's just the thing - no matter what they try, they still THINK like establishment, authoritarian, right-wing nutters. They honestly think that if you can provide some flimsy "justification", nobody will get upset that you just opened fire on unarmed kids. This is still the mindset, and it's this mindset that hamstrings them at every turn.

Look at Martin Luther King, Jr. for another example. Someone high up in the intel biz decided that it would be a good idea to turn firehoses and attack dogs on a group of people whose biggest "crime" was that they were gathered together, arms linked, and singing. Clearly they were arch criminals, right? So you turn the hoses and dogs on them, then the teargas, then bullets if you feel "justified" in doing so - and before you know it, people who were nominally ON YOUR SIDE on this issue are crying out, begging you to stop, BEGGING someone to intervene on behalf of the Freedom Marchers, and your entire case is lost, right there on live TV.

But somebody in the intel apparatus thought it would be a good idea; they thought it would work; they thought the American people just wanted to see someone get the living shit kicked out of them. And they still think that.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 10:43 AM

Byte,

I as NWO send in moles to find stuff out about your group, i urge the members of your self sustaining society to rat on you about anything that is morally offensive to me or my sheeple, or any new moral offense that I just made up, such as your people use of some substance. Now I have a war ln drugs. I will send in my commandos to bust a cal kn your ass. They'll kill a few of your guys but the rest can be pushed back into debt slavery and tax rolls, and I can have my unpaid workforce back, eating my toxic slop.

You have a defense for that?

Btw, the first idea sounds good as a society, not sure about defense. The second idea is interiguing... Is there more to this plan?p

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 10:53 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

There's no hatchet to bury, DT, that's what I was trying to say. As with anyone; treat me civilly, I will return the favor. As for this topic, I wasn't terribly interested in it to start with (NO offense to anyone), so really have nothing to say beyond what I did a while back.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 10:53 AM

Mike

I'm not sure what their final intentions are. Its possible that fail is what they're after. But that aside, they can still kill you in a misguided way.

I'm not sure kicking their asses would work, it might just show how more evil you were, once they had spliced the tape and edited it to show how your aid workers attacked my commandos first, even if that didn't really happen.

This is the double edged sword I was referring to. The ability to work in secrecy and organize out of the spotlight is the main power we have to fight the power, it is, IMHO, our most important first amendment right.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 11:41 AM

Quote:
You have a defense for that?

Self-sufficient nomads carrying their homes and a hydroponic garden on their backs?

Not really the best possible life I could imagine, but pretty much the only way to not get caught and not invite raids down your ass that I can think of is to keep moving. Your scenario involves people squealing on each other, so the only outcomes are "get caught/ don't get caught."

If you operate independently, they can't cut you off from basic supplies, and if you're constantly moving and staying one step ahead of them, maybe you could fight big brother/interpol.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 1:54 PM