Tea Party isn't racist, no indeed... by Niki2

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Yay... call the A-team.

Call anyone who you can pretend has authority.

Or.

Take it upon yourself to deal with the problems you have.

I would rather have my friend and my neighbor parolling the street than some hired goon or government agent.

... and yet you support Arizona's "Papers Please" law, which has yet more hired goons and government thugs patrolling the streets asking you to prove who you are. All because you don't want to "deal with the problems you have" when it comes to making sure the people you hire are legal residents.

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Friday, June 4, 2010 8:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Giving trained people whose employment is within the neighborhood's control isn't half bad."

Trained.

It always comes back to that with you guys doesn't it?

Are you saying you'd rather have UNTRAINED, armed people controlling the streets? What would you call them? "Gangs", maybe? Seems your problem isn't so much with the gangs per se, but rather with the idea that they aren't YOUR gang.

Quote:

I'm more trained than most cops walking out there.

So go volunteer. Don't take pay for it, though!

Quote:

But ok, so you get a neighborhood to buy "trained" people to patrol the streets.

They still don't have a real stake in the place. Not like someone who actually lives there.

You know, they don't have a reason to make things better like someone who has their family living in a house on the block does.

But hey, paying someone to take care of your "problem" is so convienant.

Don't feel like mowing your lawn, pay someone... don't feel like changing your oil... pay someone... don't feel like raising your kids... pay someone...

Its always the same.

Did you build your car yourself, with your own two hands? Or did you pay someone to do it for you? Did you build your house with your own two hands? Or did you pay someone to do it for you?
Do you grow all your own food? Are are you paying someone to grow it for you? Do you build the roads you drive on, pave the streets yourself? Are you out there patrolling the streets? (If so, I sure hope you aren't being PAID for it, because that would be against your beliefs, right?)

You seem to want free markets, capitalism, and free enterprise, yet you DON'T want people to pay for things, and to do everything for themselves. Who gets to say what I do for myself and what I pay someone else to do? I built my car's engine, by hand. I built the transmission with my own two hands. When the car needs work, *I* do the work, rather than pay someone else, because I know HOW to do that work (I am, as you say, "trained" in it). Can you do all that? Or would you pay someone else to do it for you?

I'm not trained as a cop. I'm trained with firearms, but I have no legal authority to hold someone at gunpoint until the police arrive; I'm as likely to go to jail at that point as the perp is. Also, I work full time, and like to have a little leisure time, and occasionally some sleep. How much time should I dedicate to patrolling my street? I "patrol" my yard and my property; is that not enough? I'm responsible for my property - am I now responsible for someone else's as well?

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 4, 2010 8:18 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

No, I didnt build my car myself. Nor did I design or manufacture the parts needed. But as to its upkeep? Yes I do.

Do I think that neighborhoods should protect themselves? Yes. Do I think people need authority to do so? No.

What IS your issue with me?

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Friday, June 4, 2010 8:29 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"What IS your issue with me?"

Hello,

You want to drive off undesirables, but have not been clear about who 'undesirables' are, how 'undesirables' are identified, and your chronic return to 'any means necessary' suggests your methods may make you more dangerous than the police.

Which is a tall order. Cartman is only funny in a cartoon.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 4, 2010 8:34 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Well, lets see.

You, and most others, wnat to raise your children and live in an evironment free from crime/horror.

There are those in the community who create crime and horror.

You know who they are, you see them everyday.

The police are no help.

But you know who they are, and where they stay.

You gather a group of like-minded individuals who wish to be rid of this element.

You provide proof that this element IS commiting these horrors and creating this crime.

The police do nothing. Either they dont have the power to do so, no will, or are in their pocket.

You drive out this element. (However you choose)

You prevent this element from returning, and make it such a caustic area that this element will NEVER return.

Thats a bad thing?

If the citizens of an area do it in self-preservation?

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Friday, June 4, 2010 8:48 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"You drive out this element. (However you choose)"

Hello,

This can be a bad thing. Because you might choose all sorts of people and all sorts of howevers.

The who and how is everything, Wulf. Because you can end up abusing the situation just as much as the bad guys.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 4, 2010 8:48 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You are, of course and predictably, ignoring the arguments against your suggestion. The fact that untrained (because not all will be), irresponsible (because some WILL be) people with a like mindset to yours will have a better chance of doing something stupid than a trained force of paid security people.

As Frem said, it has to be done carefully, as there are as many or more security contractors who aren't to be trusted any more than--in your opinion--cops. But if it IS, the neighbornood has control over them via paychecks. If you just create your own gang, who has the power? You gonna vote yourself in as head? You willing to trust whoever the majority of the gang elects?

The potential for trouble is infinite if you just create your own gang--you can call it a bunch of neighbors if you want, but the fact is it would be just another gang.

Given your mindset, trying to debate you on the issue is of course a waste, unfortunately. I maintain that YOU want to head up a gang to decide who is "undesirable" and go after them, and it's just a reflection of the mentality you display virtually every time you post.

The basic fact is that REAL training involves learning self-control and responsibility. You appear to have little of either, and I maintain that any neighborhood gang which decides to get rid of their "undesirables" on their own will have members who have little or none of same.

Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Friday, June 4, 2010 8:51 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Given your mindset, trying to debate you on the issue is of course a waste, unfortunately. I maintain that YOU want to head up a gang to decide who is "undesirable" and go after them, and it's just a reflection of the mentality you display virtually every time you post."

And you accuse others of being without the ability to be open to reason.

Do you think that your comment helps or further closes off discussion?

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Friday, June 4, 2010 9:12 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Is it not desirable, Wulf, that your motives and techniques be subjected to as much scrutiny as the police?

What happens when the police conduct a raid? An arrest? A search? You will notice us line up to object to X police practice and Y police practice. You will see us debate against Procedure A and Procedure B. Was enough done to protect civilians? Was there sufficient evidence for this action? Was there racial profiling? Did these people get targeted just because of the way they dress? The way they talk? The music they enjoy? Was the force excessive? What might have worked better? Etc, etc, etc.

It is proper that these questions be asked, for it is our duty to be vigilant not only in the wrongs of others but also of ourselves and the agencies of our will.

So fret not over the dissection of your vague statements of bravado. If your statements sound like action-movie dialogue, it's quite right that we inquire further, with skeptical eyes and words. Due diligence. Who watches the watchers?

I once thought you shared these concerns. Lately, it hasn't seemed so.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 4, 2010 9:26 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Your flat statements and refusal to even conceive of anything else, or even a COMPROMISE of anything else, exists, are what close off discussion. I call 'em like I see 'em, nothing more. Your opinion is of no validity whatsoever.

Whenever you communicate with a modicum of reason and civility, I do the same. The rest of the time: Bite me.

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Friday, June 4, 2010 9:41 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

No, Nix. What you mean is... "if you somewhat agree with me, then I will act responsibly and post civily.."

"Otherwise, if you dare diagree with me, or hold a view outside of my own I will throw a hissy fit! Cus Gaia knows I can never be forced to see outside of my box!"

Bite you?

Only in an artery.

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Friday, June 4, 2010 10:06 AM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Well, lets see.

You, and most others, wnat to raise your children and live in an evironment free from crime/horror.

There are those in the community who create crime and horror.

You know who they are, you see them everyday.

The police are no help.

But you know who they are, and where they stay.

You gather a group of like-minded individuals who wish to be rid of this element.

You provide proof that this element IS commiting these horrors and creating this crime.

The police do nothing. Either they dont have the power to do so, no will, or are in their pocket.

You drive out this element. (However you choose)

You prevent this element from returning, and make it such a caustic area that this element will NEVER return.

Thats a bad thing?

If the citizens of an area do it in self-preservation?

Wanted to draw attention to that one point. How do you know these people cause crime and horror? Because they're black? Or because they're Latino? Or libruls? Tell us Wulf, what exactly constitutes a nasty-wastie in this little scenario of yours?

What if these people are of your persuasion? What if they're you're best drinking buddies and you find out they're running a underage prostitution ring? Do you drive them out because they're causing crime and horror even though they're your pals? Or do you turn a blind eye and focus on the nice Mexican family down the street who moved in last Tuesday and "clearly" must be illegals?

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Friday, June 4, 2010 10:09 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"What if these people are of your persuasion? What if they're you're best drinking buddies and you find out they're running a underage prostitution ring? Do you drive them out because they're causing crime and horror even though they're your pals?"

Are you serious? Is that what you people think?

Well, ok. Let me be clear. If these folks are running underage proz... you deal with them like you would any rabid dog.

Persuasion doesn't matter.

Good God, is it so hard to imagine that people in a neighborhood be allowed to keep their area free from crime/horror?

Are you guys so indentured to the idea of authority that you cannot see taking the right action in your own non-calloused hands?

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Friday, June 4, 2010 10:33 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Well, ok. Let me be clear. If these folks are running underage proz... you deal with them like you would any rabid dog."

Hello,

It's fun to see Liam Neeson rack up the body count in movies, but in real life, I don't advocate murder. I understand the sentiment, I do. I feel anger about things as you do. Action films are a kind of wish-fulfillment. But this is why I wouldn't want you doing summary justice. It's just a lynch mob or murder squadron.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 4, 2010 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No, I didnt build my car myself. Nor did I design or manufacture the parts needed. But as to its upkeep? Yes I do.

Do I think that neighborhoods should protect themselves? Yes. Do I think people need authority to do so? No.

What IS your issue with me?

My "issue" with you is that you think you live in a world where all the good guys always wear white hats, and all the bad guys always wear black hats. I'm telling you that there are good guys wearing bad guy hats, and vice versa.

You propose "any means necessary". Great. When Malcolm X proposed that very phrase as how blacks would rise up and be noticed and empowered, how did YOU interpret it? Did you think he meant with violence, murder, thuggery... or did you think he meant he would just go and talk to people and get them to stop doing evil unto his black brothers, purely by dint of his convincing personality? (Hint: MOST white people thought he was a violent thug...)

So when you say "by any means necessary" when speaking of driving out "undesirables", can I take it that you mean "ANY means"? Would you, for instance, murder someone for selling dope on your corner? Even though you advocate the legal selling of same?

See, the phrase "by any means necessary" has taken on a certain meaning in the modern vernacular; it's generally accepted to mean that you'll stop at nothing to get what you want. Nothing is off-limits or beyond the pale.

Is that what you're advocating here? If I disagree with what I think someone is doing on his or her property, do I, in your view, have the right to kill them, burn them out of their house, tar and feather them, run them out of town on a rail, or lynch them?

How are you proposing we "protect" our neighborhoods from these alleged gangs, without becoming gangs ourselves? You don't want to involve the police; you've already said as much. So what's YOUR solution? Thuggery? Vendetta? Gangland tactics? What is it that makes you think you're any different from those you're targeting?

THAT is my "issue" with you. On the one hand, you want everyone to be "free" to do what they will - and on the other hand, you want to use YOUR "freedom" to stomp the guts out of others who want to exercise THEIR freedom in ways you don't approve of. That's it, that's my entire "issue" with you. It's not that you hate tyranny; you just hate not being the tyrant. You don't want to live under the whip, but you'd love to be holding that whip and wielding it on the backs of others.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 4, 2010 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No, Nix. What you mean is... "if you somewhat agree with me, then I will act responsibly and post civily.."

"Otherwise, if you dare diagree with me, or hold a view outside of my own I will throw a hissy fit! Cus Gaia knows I can never be forced to see outside of my box!"

Bite you?

Only in an artery.

That box you refuse to think outside, Wulfie? It's a prison, you know. A prison you've constructed inside your own head. You live in solitary confinement, always terrified that someone is going to stick the shiv in. Sometimes, you just have to let go of all that hate and fear.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 4, 2010 10:53 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Funny how you would mention Malcolm X.

Should I have ever met the man, I believe that, while we would have been on opposite spectrums of our beliefs.... and our souls tied to the freedom of our own peoples... we could have met as equals.

The again, Im sure you would cast me as naieve, or foolish, for such beliefs.

While Malcolm X believed that it was Islam that would cast aside all inequities amoung men, I believe that it is the words bound in our Declaration of Independance, Bill of Rights, and Constitution that will do this.

So, while in the past I may have made sweeping judgements against all of a certain people, that may have been hasty.

It is only when we realize our equality as brothers in country, that we may proceed to enlighten the world thru our example.

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Friday, June 4, 2010 11:04 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So suck that. (I can be damn near poetic when I try) :)P

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Friday, June 4, 2010 11:10 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I said clearly, Wulf, that I have no problem being disagreed with in a civil manner, and have agreed at times with those with whom I have very different philosophies. I have also had my mind changed by people I started out disagreeing with, and modified my views when I have read things which warrant it. Your comment is wrong. Those are the facts. Mike is right about the box.

That said, I agree with you and am grateful to see

Quote:
So, while in the past I may have made sweeping judgements against all of a certain people, that may have been hasty.

It is only when we realize our equality as brothers in country, that we may proceed to enlighten the world thru our example.

I hope you mean that.

What you're missing is that we AGREE about the problem, we just disagree about the SOLUTION. Still you snark happily. So be it.

On the other hand, yes, I think agreeing with Malcom X is no better than agreeing with the KKK.

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Friday, June 4, 2010 11:16 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"On the other hand, yes, I think agreeing with Malcom X is no better than agreeing with the KKK."

See the problem is that as M.X. got older and wiser he realized that blaming all problems in one people would not solve the problems of his own.

So no, not ALL of what M.X said can be compared to the KKK.

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Friday, June 4, 2010 11:45 AM

Quote:

It is only when we realize our equality as brothers in country, that we may proceed to enlighten the world thru our example.

That's a first step, at least. Now you just need to learn to think beyond "country". Trust me, TPTB are already far, far beyond loyalty to any "country". Patriotism is pablum, placebo, and panacea. The only people who still believe in "country" as a hallowed concept are the suckers at the bottom, who will be the first to be discarded as cannon fodder. (Or should I say "Canon" fodder?)

So you've learned to recognize brotherhood, a kindred spirit. Now you need to find a way to embrace it across artificial borders, beyond race, in spite of religion.

Sounds kinda hippyish, don't it? ;)

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 4, 2010 2:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
THAT is my "issue" with you. On the one hand, you want everyone to be "free" to do what they will - and on the other hand, you want to use YOUR "freedom" to stomp the guts out of others who want to exercise THEIR freedom in ways you don't approve of. That's it, that's my entire "issue" with you. It's not that you hate tyranny; you just hate not being the tyrant. You don't want to live under the whip, but you'd love to be holding that whip and wielding it on the backs of others.

Very astute, Mikey.
And you're not the only one who has that issue with Wulfie, since that's 95% of the one I have with him as well.

Changin which hand holds the whip accomplishes not a goddamn thing.

-F

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 8:52 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Bang on, Frem and Mike. That's my view as well. One of the problems of believing in "heroes" (as in, having special power over others) is when one begins to think one could be a hero, too.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 11:50 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Then what is the truth, according to you Anthony?

I meant to give an answer to this before (in addition to Anthony and Niki), but ran out of time.

Minority communities (especially those with a history of discrimination) within populations are well documented as having lower IQs, even when the divide is nothing to with race, e.g religious.

This article makes the argument against a racial factor quite well: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm

"Perhaps the most dramatic example is the Northern Irish. Even though they come from the same ethnic group, Catholics (the discriminated minority) score 15 points lower on IQ tests than Protestants."

That's the first part of the explanation for me, I would personally go on to suggest that certain *cultures* are simply less sophisticated than others, or sometimes just comparably less academic/entrepeneurial/individualistic. So I'm personally against multi-culturism as something to aim for in society. Individual families mixing in is the best kind of immigration in my opinion (and is a good and healthy thing). Entire immigrant communities that get transplanted in or set up, and become segregated from the host society (the Pakistani community in the UK is one example) is asking for social trouble in my opinion. It also doesn't help when the cultures are quite different.

As for tea party racism (have deviated slightly from topic I realise...), I wouldn't say the movement is a reaction to there being 'a black man in the white house' - but I do think that adds an extra 'edge' to the protests. The cry that 'Obama is destroying the country' or whatever is something that will automatically resonate with racists, and be something they can get behind, even when at heart it's just a political/partisan cry. So it's extra fuel on the fire: and the movement is that extra bit more passionate and forceful because of it.

That's my opinion.

Heads should roll

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 12:07 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"One of the problems of believing in "heroes" (as in, having special power over others) is when one begins to think one could be a hero, too."

Hello,

I believe in heroes. But my heroes are not men of great authority and power. The most heroic acts are those of compassion, caring, and succor.

Individuals of little power reaching out to individuals of no power, pulling them up, and dusting them off. I look at those heroes, and I dream.

I dream of being a hero, too.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 2:02 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Excellent, KPO, I agree completely. I happen to think a lot of what the Tea Party (and especially those behind it and its leaders) does appeals to the subconscious racism of many, not just those who are overtly racist. I don't think all Tea Partiers are racists, but I do think there are racists among them, and I think what you said is accurate about Obama being black bringing some of the subconscious racism to the fore without it even being realized by the people who have it.

Anthony, I misspoke. I should have said "fantasy heroes", I have heroes too, but I don't swallow that Superman or Bruce Willis in many of his movies can actually EXIST, and I don't hold them up to prove my points, as Wulf does. I was talking about that, not about real-life heroes.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 2:12 PM