Just me by Niki2

antimason probably isn't AURaptor. Different posting styles, and antimason is a very strict Christian, and AURaptor is an atheist, or at least he believes in science and evolution.

No, we actually do have multiple right wing people on this board. Firefly is a surprisingly conservative (libertarian?) show, considering how liberal (anarchist?) Joss is. And they're not all trolls, though I think strong left wing people bring out the worst in them.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 12:32 PM

Also, this is what I was afraid of. "Sockpuppet! They're all sockpuppets! We can dismiss whatever they say now."

This is why trying to figure out who is and isn't really isn't that helpful, because it's all just mass speculation, targeted at whoever it is who bothers us or we don't like.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 12:46 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

For me, it's coming down to not even having to do with sickpuppets. It's just the same person--or the same locked mentality if you will, and Kane is fitting in perfectly. They cannot be reasoned with; it's not stupidity (at least I don't THINK so), it's deliberate, stone-wall decision NOT to be open to any kind of rational discussion.

I've spent too much time trying TO discuss or debate with them, it's just not worth it. I don't care if they're one person or three, for me it's just gonna be easier to think of him/her/them as CrapAnKane; a response from one seems to fit just as perfectly as if it were from any of the others.

To me they've all become, not sickpuppets so much as trolls. There's no effort to engage in communication, only to stir things up and say outrageous and ugly, obscene things to and about others. Why should I bother? I'd like to hear one good reason why. I disagree/agree with many people here, but these are the only three that neither I nor anyone else seems to be able to communicate with in ANY meaningful way. It's a waste, and I don't intend to waste more time on it. They're all one to me.

I'm sure I'll be judged for it, but that's only fair because I'm only speaking for ME. And you're right, Dancer, "AntiCrap" doesn't work, but CrapAnKane works great for me. It's not a matter of liking or disliking, either; there are people here I like and those I'm not fond of, but now and gain I can communicate with any of them. So there it is.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 12:50 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think it's possible for a group of people to have similar ideologies and philosophies. I also think it's possible for people to shut down the self-analytical portions of their minds once they adopt a position. When something is accepted as 'Truth' there is a xenophobic reaction to anything else, as it can only be 'Lies.' Never mind that just because something is accepted, it doesn't make it Truth, and just because something isn't accepted, that doesn't make it Lies.

This condition is common in people of various political persuasions. I think it is most common amongst competitive people. In the game of unmoderated debate, you can win just as long as you refuse to acknowledge defeat. Even an untenable or preposterous viewpoint can be ridden indefinitely, since there is no agency to rule against it. Hence, competitive people who have adopted a position as Truth never have to acknowledge that there is anything wrong with it. Quite the opposite. They can defend it eternally and still 'win' since there is no authority that can declare them a 'loser.'

In my opinion, less-competitive people who are less concerned with 'winning' are able to more closely approach any real truth, since their pride is less involved in the debate process. For them, debate is not about winning, but about eliminating lesser truths until only the greater truth remains. These people can be seen to actually change their viewpoints over time, and to concede valid points to the opposition. This is anathema to the competitive person who needs to WIN, but natural to the less competitve person who needs to LEARN.

Unfortunately, debate is by nature a contest of viewpoints and spokespersons, so it attracts competitive people. This is why so many people here seem the same, I think. The competitors grab a side and hold onto it come hell or high water. If many of them express the same viewpoints, it is because the mental scorecard can be increased by having others agree with you. Hence, people on one general side tend to back each other up, so they can be on the winning team.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 12:58 PM

I concede maybe they're trolling you. You've probably become a bigger target even than Kwicko, who from what I've seen used to get the brunt of it.

I've actually had pretty civil conversations with AURaptor and antimason. I haven't talked much to Kaneman.

Maybe sockpuppet threads are just a good place to vent about people's behaviour. In that light, okay, you guys have your sockpuppet threads then, I'll stop harping about it. Venting will maybe make things calmer in other parts of the RWED.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 2:47 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Niki -

You're paranoid. I'm me. No one else.

I didn't bother answering your point because I frankly didn't read it. Hard to respond to that which I didn't know of in the 1st place.

( Funny, you claim she says all that stuff, and yet you ignore it when Obama says he was never for single payer , after he said specifically he WAS for exactly that. )

Maybe if your replies were less novels and more to the point, folks would spend time reading and responding to them. But we know you're not about to quit your yammering. It's what you do.

I've played the " just the facts, ma'am " game w/ y'all before, and you would have none of it. So spare me your pretentious, phony indignant... " I'VE HAD IT WITH RAPPY ! " speech. You're not fooling anyone. You are EXACTLY who you accuse me of being.

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 3:13 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

I'm getting more and more convinced that Antimason is Crappy

Back when I was doing RightStuff (2006), if you read VERY carefully, you could tell it was me, I was kind of reverse-engineering my own thoughts for that character.
I don't get the impression that there's any real connection between Crappy & Anti.
I could be wrong, but then again, You are ME!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 3:39 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

They're not the same person; they just have the same mindset. They are locked into their patterns, and they CAN NOT let down the illusion, nor admit to the reality of things, even for a moment, or their world will crumble around their heads.

So they're alike in that respect, but they really AREN'T all the same person.

I should know - I've been accused of being Signy, Rue, and even you, Niki, and all because we share similar views.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 4:40 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Yep. Just you.

Auraptor disagrees with you, so he must be a troll. Anyone who disagrees with you must be a troll. Hence, anyone who disagrees with you must be Auraptor.

Doesn't work that way.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, June 4, 2010 2:42 AM

DREAMTROVE

I've had long and enlightening conversations with antimason, and I found him to be particularly flexible for someone of that political frame of mind.

Sometimes I think that what we think of here as antipathy is really just people who are political polar opposites, and so they will always disagree.

Likewise, I think that a lock of what we think is sockpuppetry is just people of a similar enough bent that we can't tell them apart.

I doubt antimason is auraptor, the former is very religious and the latter is very much not.

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Friday, June 4, 2010 4:26 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"I'm getting more and more convinced that Antimason is Crappy is possibly Kaneman...and the whole bunch of them could even be Wulf, wanting to really let go but not be held accountable. But I choose not to believe that."

Why is my name constantly pulled into these things?

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Friday, June 4, 2010 9:40 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
In the game of unmoderated debate, you can win just as long as you refuse to acknowledge defeat. Even an untenable or preposterous viewpoint can be ridden indefinitely, since there is no agency to rule against it. Hence, competitive people who have adopted a position as Truth never have to acknowledge that there is anything wrong with it. Quite the opposite. They can defend it eternally and still 'win' since there is no authority that can declare them a 'loser.'

Quote:
They are locked into their patterns, and they CAN NOT let down the illusion, nor admit to the reality of things, even for a moment, or their world will crumble around their heads.

It’s not just the tone, by the way, Mike, it’s exactly what you said: the mindset.

I don’t know who, if any, are sickpuppets at this point, but as far as I’m concerned, from this day forward, all three are the same: trolls posting for no other reason than to start a fight. Perhaps it is just the mindset you and Anthony have described, but that makes no difference; the way in which they make their “points” is ugly and attacking, and appears to me to be deliberately done so as to incite a flamewar.

Quote:
Anyone who disagrees with you must be a troll

False. I disagree or agree with many on this board, even Mike, who is closest to me in philosophy. It’s not about agreeing or disagreeing. See the above for what it’s truly about, and that’s why I refuse to be drawn in any further into viewing them as legitimate debaters.

No, Byte, I don’t think what we view as antipathy is merely differences in philosophy. There are many here, like you, who are able to maintain self-control, and only these three that I can see (and sometimes Wulf) who immediately respond to anyone they disagree with in a vicious, obscene manner, and who are incapable of EVER giving an inch in the face of facts. I don’t feel antipathy toward anyone else here, and we have drastically different philosophies. I’m sick of their rhetoric, but I could get past even that if it weren’t so ugly. Given both, I call them trolls and treat them as such.

Your name is pulled in, Wulf, because you very often behave the way they do. You, however, also dip your toe into civil communication, occasionally can be gotten through to, and sometimes even post rational material. You’re not of their ilk, tho’ you share similarities. THAT is why, when speaking of people such as these three, you are brought to mind. That’s all. If you were to make a practice of not mouthing off, people wouldn't think of you in the same vein. Even past attitude would be forgotten (by most) if that were the case. It's your choice.

It's everyone's choice whether to use self-control or not. The Fuckwad theory is a temptation to everyone; the quality of the person in my opinion is discerned by whether we give in to it or not.

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Friday, June 4, 2010 9:52 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Please,

I get lumped into the whipping posts here all the time.

"occasionally can be gotten through to" i.e, sometimes I agree with CERTAIN points made.

"who immediately respond to anyone they disagree with in a vicious, obscene manner, and who are incapable of EVER giving an inch in the face of facts."

Give as good as I get. And your facts are no more "truthy" than anyone elses. Until you've lived it, you can spout nothing but hyperbole.

"That’s all. If you were to make a practice of not mouthing off, people wouldn't think of you in the same vein."

Oh... scuse me for having an opinion outside of what you believe. Now if I were to say, "Stop blathering on the interwebs and get into the kitchen where you belong.." Id be wrong, right? But you can say "not mouthing off" and its ALL GOOD, cus you know... libs have the "high" ground when it comes to stuff like this.

GRRRR: God your hypocrisy is so agrivating!

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Friday, June 4, 2010 11:35 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Niki,

I've been here since the beginning, back when we were still sending postcards to FOX and I can assure you, AURaptor and Antimason are entirely different people.

Niki, I gotta say: from where I sit, accusations of sockpuppetry are pretty serious, a pretty serious attack on another poster's integrity, their autonomy and individuality. You protest when folk accuse you of treating "righties" as if they're one big homogeneous gang, and then you post this?

For a year or more when I first arrived, the political discourse on this board was really amazing. Sure there were trolls but they didn't run the board. I mark the beginning of the end of those good old days from when Rue first started calling AURaptor names--can't remember what it was, Ohcrapper or Crappy or some such. I was really actually shocked when she did that for the first time. It seemed so out of bounds, and out of character. It's so utterly demeaning--you're calling another person garbage or even shit. It's dehumanizing. And it's profoundly disrespectful. Yes, yes, AURaptor, I believe, had said something deplorable, of course, but until the name calling, Rue had always treated him with basic respect.

Now I can't imagine sticking around a forum where the general populace began to call me HKGarbage or the like. But AURaptor for his own reasons stuck around, and so, with neither side respecting the other, the discourse degenerated and has never fully recovered. When we dehumanize another person, our ethical conduct toward that person is bound to suffer.

But even so, respect can really set a tone for a discussion. Look at how Anthony conducts himself. Even in this dispiritingly polarized atmosphere he treats folk with respect and for the most part commands respect in return.

Just sayin'.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 1:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
HK wrote:

.... But AURaptor for his own reasons stuck around, and so, with neither side respecting the other, the discourse degenerated and has never fully recovered.

I "stick around " the site in general because of my interests in things Firefly, and the various other topics.

Outside of politics, I can't recall any real negative reactions or encounters w/ anyone.

Do I acknowledge that very strong comments by me have been made ? Yep. But by no means have the insults and profanity exchanged been a 1 way street. ( I've also noticed some who routinely toss out vulgarities, yet seldom if ever get called on it. Only me, for some reason. )

I'd prefer a more civil tone on here, but when simply having an opposing view point leads to all manner of baseless accusations, ulterior motives, and attempted character assassination... a strong reaction can't be ruled out. And that's what I give, from time to time, when called for.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 2:23 AM

Quote:
It's everyone's choice whether to use self-control or not. The Fuckwad theory is a temptation to everyone; the quality of the person in my opinion is discerned by whether we give in to it or not.

I think you mean "is discerned by how often we give in to it...", because we pretty much all do, at one point or another. Certainly *I* do. :)

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 4:39 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"But by no means have the insults and profanity exchanged been a 1 way street. ( I've also noticed some who routinely toss out vulgarities, yet seldom if ever get called on it. Only me, for some reason. )

I'd prefer a more civil tone on here, but when simply having an opposing view point leads to all manner of baseless accusations, ulterior motives, and attempted character assassination... a strong reaction can't be ruled out. And that's what I give, from time to time, when called for."

Hello Mike,

Remember that time I railed against Raptor profanely? Remember how he wanted to be civil with me? Remember how safe it was for me to have an opposing point of view?

Me neither.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 4:57 AM

Yeah, Anthony - You're probably the ONLY person on here whom I've never (okay, maybe ONCE, ever) seen twist off and break ballistic on someone, no matter how richly they may have deserved it.

Rappy wants to blame his behavior on anger and outrage, but his rage wasn't directed at BP, or even at the federal government - it was directed at YOU, personally, on a very visceral level. He can't even be honest about that.

In his impotence and outrage, anyone who could be seen at any level, even if only for a moment, to be "defending" the President, became a monster. Less than human. As you've pointed out, it's not something that should be easily forgotten, because it says something about his very nature and his core beliefs.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 5:34 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yeah, Anthony - You're probably the ONLY person on here whom I've never (okay, maybe ONCE, ever) seen twist off and break ballistic on someone

You've never seen it from me.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 6:00 AM

Quote:
No, Byte, I don’t think what we view as antipathy is merely differences in philosophy.

That was DT. Not that I blame you, I've been accused of being his sock puppet a lot. No, we just talk.

SockPuppet is probably DT's sockpuppet, being SockPuppet has issues with ipad spelling fixes having a mind of their own.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 6:01 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think there are many sensible and civil people on this forum. I think most of them run far, far away from these discussions when they become hurtful or negative.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 6:03 AM

Bingo. That's probably why I wasn't aware of the River6213/Sig throw down, or the spats that happened between Niki and DT. I didn't even see the thread where AURaptor attacked you, because I think I left after Auraptor and Kwicko started fighting.

When it becomes name-calling, I used to try to calm things down and get things back on track, but it's become much harder to do since I first came here. Which is a shame, because I use this board to discuss ideas, the whys and hows. Discussion is next to impossible in the midst of some flamewars, the only choice is to abandon the thread.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 6:20 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Yes, yes, AURaptor, I believe, had said something deplorable, of course,

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! OMG!!!
HK, I know you didn't mean it that way, but I got a howl out of it, thanks!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 6:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"But by no means have the insults and profanity exchanged been a 1 way street. ( I've also noticed some who routinely toss out vulgarities, yet seldom if ever get called on it. Only me, for some reason. )

I'd prefer a more civil tone on here, but when simply having an opposing view point leads to all manner of baseless accusations, ulterior motives, and attempted character assassination... a strong reaction can't be ruled out. And that's what I give, from time to time, when called for."

Hello Mike,

Remember that time I railed against Raptor profanely? Remember how he wanted to be civil with me? Remember how safe it was for me to have an opposing point of view?

Me neither.

--Anthony

AuRaptor was civil in the face of constant attact for years before you assholes finally pushed him past his tolerance level. Your indignation is laughable Anthony considering you've jumped on the AuRaptor derision bandwagon lately. why don't you grow a set of balls and learn to take a little attack like everyone else around here. You act like a 5 year old boy just called a bad name for the first time. Man up dude or go play in the shallow end.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:00 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"But by no means have the insults and profanity exchanged been a 1 way street. ( I've also noticed some who routinely toss out vulgarities, yet seldom if ever get called on it. Only me, for some reason. )

I'd prefer a more civil tone on here, but when simply having an opposing view point leads to all manner of baseless accusations, ulterior motives, and attempted character assassination... a strong reaction can't be ruled out. And that's what I give, from time to time, when called for."

Hello Mike,

Remember that time I railed against Raptor profanely? Remember how he wanted to be civil with me? Remember how safe it was for me to have an opposing point of view?

Me neither.

--Anthony

AuRaptor was civil in the face of constant attact for years before you assholes finally pushed him past his tolerance level. Your indignation is laughable Anthony considering you've jumped on the AuRaptor derision bandwagon lately. why don't you grow a set of balls and learn to take a little attack like everyone else around here. You act like a 5 year old boy just called a bad name for the first time. Man up dude or go play in the shallow end.

Hello,

Meekly bow, take my blows, and do not criticize the abusive authority.

Is that what men do? Is that the deep end?

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"But by no means have the insults and profanity exchanged been a 1 way street. ( I've also noticed some who routinely toss out vulgarities, yet seldom if ever get called on it. Only me, for some reason. )

I'd prefer a more civil tone on here, but when simply having an opposing view point leads to all manner of baseless accusations, ulterior motives, and attempted character assassination... a strong reaction can't be ruled out. And that's what I give, from time to time, when called for."

Hello Mike,

Remember that time I railed against Raptor profanely? Remember how he wanted to be civil with me? Remember how safe it was for me to have an opposing point of view?

Me neither.

--Anthony

AuRaptor was civil in the face of constant attact for years before you assholes finally pushed him past his tolerance level. Your indignation is laughable Anthony considering you've jumped on the AuRaptor derision bandwagon lately. why don't you grow a set of balls and learn to take a little attack like everyone else around here. You act like a 5 year old boy just called a bad name for the first time. Man up dude or go play in the shallow end.

Hello,

Meekly bow, take my blows, and do not criticize the abusive authority.

Is that what men do? Is that the deep end?

--Anthony

You need to face the fact Anthony that you took the first swing when you joined the mob. If you can't accept the fact that AuRaptor is sincere when he tells you so, you might all well be calling him a liar. I personally don't mind being called a no good MF, but calling me a liar will get you flamed every time.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:14 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Apologies, Byte...sometimes I get confused as to who posted what, I come in late and read so many by the time I get around to responding!

Kirk is pretty much no worth paying attention to, either. These people seem to have few, if any, rational points to be made, and they succeed in that more than not, threads devolve into nastiness. I wish they didn’t, but I watched PhoenixRose get called “controlling” for HER attempts to calm things down elsewhere, so after a couple of tries, I stop trying. I mention it often, but know that will go nowhere.

Wish I’d been here when it was less the way things were. Now that I’m seeing them in a different light, I read through threads and am merely saddened to see them get the thread off track, keep saying the same crazy things and insisting their right in the face of facts to the contrary, see people keep responding to them trying to show that facts show them wrong, and word it invariably in an offensive, personally attacking tone. Is going to save me getting into a lot of discussions, because after one or two tries I, too, will back out. Which won't even please them, because they WANT opponents to keep stringing along, which gives them excuse to continue being insulting. I'm sure my backing out will please them immeasurably; would be amusing to watch any of them responded to ONCE, then when it doesn't get through (and it never does), left alone. They'd have a ball with one another for a while, but none of us would have to be aware of it.

Would like to try that as an experiment sometime, but I know that, like me up until now, people get dragged in. S'a pity.

I'd prefer to let their game be played by others and not waste my time, aside from the fact that it ruins the thread.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:14 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"But by no means have the insults and profanity exchanged been a 1 way street. ( I've also noticed some who routinely toss out vulgarities, yet seldom if ever get called on it. Only me, for some reason. )

I'd prefer a more civil tone on here, but when simply having an opposing view point leads to all manner of baseless accusations, ulterior motives, and attempted character assassination... a strong reaction can't be ruled out. And that's what I give, from time to time, when called for."

Hello Mike,

Remember that time I railed against Raptor profanely? Remember how he wanted to be civil with me? Remember how safe it was for me to have an opposing point of view?

Me neither.

--Anthony

AuRaptor was civil in the face of constant attact for years before you assholes finally pushed him past his tolerance level. Your indignation is laughable Anthony considering you've jumped on the AuRaptor derision bandwagon lately. why don't you grow a set of balls and learn to take a little attack like everyone else around here. You act like a 5 year old boy just called a bad name for the first time. Man up dude or go play in the shallow end.

Hello,

Meekly bow, take my blows, and do not criticize the abusive authority.

Is that what men do? Is that the deep end?

--Anthony

You need to face the fact Anthony that you took the first swing when you joined the mob. If you can't accept the fact that AuRaptor is sincere when he tells you so, you might all well be calling him a liar. I personally don't mind being called a no good MF, but calling me a liar will get you flamed every time.

Hello,

You suggest that I deserve abuse because my opinion and his differ. You are entitled to your opinion. I prefer civil discourse and disagreements. I try to encourage it whenever I can.

Is Mr. Raptor a liar? That depends on whether he believes in the things he says that are untrue.

Only he knows for sure.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:17 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, Anthony's efforts to be civil, no matter how painful they are, do command, and get, respect from me - especially since i'm pretty sure it wasn't easy to remain so in the face of the verbal sandblasting I was dishin out to him initially.

I'm not really capable of that level of diplomacy, alas - but even so at the very least I try to countenance other people as a human being, although that is a struggle with me when folks start slippin beneath my minimum definition of it, it raises moral and ethical issues with me that border on theological, which is damn frustrating.

And, just to clarify one thing, the main purpose of the initial flood of sock puppets around here was to make it APPEAR that certain unpopular, inhumane political positions had far more support than they did - when no one would support such insanity, when no one would countenance such reprehensible concepts and ideas, the few folk spouting them decided to add a few more voices to their side even if they had to create them out of thin air, which is - for them that were not here when it occured, how that problem came to be.

You'd see some post more or less espousing genocide, and folks would recoil in horror, and then suddenly a whole bunch of posters who's signup date was less than a week ago were ALL for it, and all using the exact same phrasing and sentence structure as the jerk who posted it.

The other end of it was being flamed by someone, and having all those other new-names jumping on you too (most of whom disappeared soon after, never to be seen again) and that was where the real annoyance came from cause it was really, seriously obvious to everyone.

Other than that, not so much an issue, and now not so much at all - although there is the problem of folks setting each other in categories, which has lead more than once to someone bashing a person for an opinion they didn't even hold, simply because they got mixed up with other people of similar belief in that persons mental filebox - I caught a LOT of crap like that when we used to discuss Anarchism around here, being flamed for stuff other folk said I might not have even agreed with, and certainly never espoused myself, and I have seen it go the other way too, with some of our conservative folks gettin raked for stuff someone else said in much the same fashion.

I *do* try to call that out when I see it, cause folks are individuals, and should be treated as such, even my hostility tends to be individually categorized, though few notice.

The only real sockpuppet I've seen around here lately is JSF, which Rappy downright admitted to, after being called on it, and he uses to create "agreement" with himself when he can't find no one else to agree with him, but since everybody KNOWS it, I don't think that really qualifies as a sock puppet any more than Siggy's altname JKiddo does.

-Frem

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Is Mr. Raptor a liar? That depends on whether he believes in the things he says that are untrue.

Only he knows for sure.

--Anthony

Pretty poor logic there Anthony. If he believes them to be true he isn't lying, if he knows that they aren't true and says them anyway he is lying.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
AuRaptor was civil in the face of constant attact for years before you assholes finally pushed him past his tolerance level.

Bull. Shit.

He was never civil about it, you might slip that one past folk who weren't here for it cause they don't know for sure - but to someone who does that reeks of the manure shovel, Kirk ole boy.

Yourself, well, other than tryin to shine folks instead of being a little more honest, you, at least TRY to offer and discuss a valid point even if you find it difficult to get into the right words to carry it, and I respect that, which makes it all the more offensive when you try to shovel a load of crap.

Even worse is that him and the rest of the mighty-whitey-righties didn't even pretend to be civil when the odds were more even and any disagreement with the former administration would result in a verbal flaming of epic proportions that would go on, and on, and on, and drove many folks from RWED and even from this board entire.

So don't hand me that line of crap, Kirk.

-Frem

PS. Yes, I am calling you a liar, cause you *did* just lie to us, by all means, flame away.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:23 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Is Mr. Raptor a liar? That depends on whether he believes in the things he says that are untrue.

Only he knows for sure.

--Anthony

Pretty poor logic there Anthony. If he believes them to be true he isn't lying, if he knows that they aren't true and says them anyway he is lying.

Hello,

That is exactly what I said.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Is Mr. Raptor a liar? That depends on whether he believes in the things he says that are untrue.

Only he knows for sure.

--Anthony

Pretty poor logic there Anthony. If he believes them to be true he isn't lying, if he knows that they aren't true and says them anyway he is lying.

Hello,

That is exactly what I said.

--Anthony

You think people can believe in things they know to be untrue?

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Broken minds, perhaps.

What this has to do with the price of copper in Bangladesh has escaped me.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

So don't hand me that line of crap, Kirk.

-Frem

PS. Yes, I am calling you a liar, cause you *did* just lie to us, by all means, flame away.

Hello,

Now you've really hurt my delicate feelings. I'm' going to have to find a quote from you to post as my signature. If that doesn't work I'll have to post a thread specifically attacking you and wait for my sockpuppets to jump in. You've messed with the wrong guy now boy.

Kirkules

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Yourself, well, other than tryin to shine folks instead of being a little more honest, you, at least TRY to offer and discuss a valid point even if you find it difficult to get into the right words to carry it, and I respect that, which makes it all the more offensive when you try to shovel a load of crap.

I don't interject in treads that have a meaningful discussion going unless I have something to add. I do however feel free to say whatever I please in a thread like this that is designed to incite. I'm never the first to throw dirt in a civil discussion, but when folks start a pile on thread to attack someone I respect I feel free to respond in kind. If those with delicate sensibilities like Anthony don't want conflict they should stay out of those threads specifically designed to incite it.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 8:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Seriously though, Kirk - I know we don't agree on hardly nothing at all, and I also know you don't really wanna get hit with the fallout from other peoples craziness, but it wouldn't hurt to have a rational conservative opinion around here, guy.

Do you really want this guy to be the only voice of conservative opinion around here ?

I sure don't, and I got issues galore with the current administration I'd be quite happy to discuss in at least half-way civil fashion, you know.

-Frem

ETA: I see we crossposted the same general idea within two minutes of each other, yeah - so you get what I was sayin, which is cool.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 8:15 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Here I go, catching up gain.

Cav (hey, great to see you!), you’re right of course. I’m going to ignore whoever may be whoever’s sickpuppet, it’s never more than guessing anyway. But I believe the troll thing is accurate; we have a number of people here who express things as facts and do so in an ugly manner, and continue their flat statements that what they said was “fact” as well as their assaults, long after facts have proven them wrong, and expanding it to personal attacks almost immediately. That’s trolling, by definition.

I try to caveat what I say, but don’t do it often enough. “Righties” for me is different from Republican, Conservative, or anything else...I should probably say “extreme righties”, because yes, I DO lump them into a category all their own. I’ve been trying recently to call them RWAs, which is a more accurate definition.

As to nicknames, everyone here calls some by variations on their screen name, and yes, I call him Crappy too. Nicknames were the case when I arrived, and I took it up. I’m called “Nix” and “Operative Nikovich”...it just is the way it is. I wish I had been here in the time you described, I would have found it much more interesting and far less offensive place. As it is, I just accept the ugliness, try to discuss and debate civilly, and sometimes sink to the level of those who stir up trouble. Mostly I try not to.

There IS no reasoning with several people here. For example, Wulf:

Quote:
I get lumped into the whipping posts here all the time. (not true, he gets treated as civilly as anyone else, except for a few cases, as long as he’s civil)

"occasionally can be gotten through to" i.e, sometimes I agree with CERTAIN points made. (not true; occasionally he posts things that make me change my mind, or changes his own mind)

"who immediately respond to anyone they disagree with in a vicious, obscene manner, and who are incapable of EVER giving an inch in the face of facts."

Give as good as I get. And your facts are no more "truthy" than anyone elses. Until you've lived it, you can spout nothing but hyperbole. (Not true at all. I post actual quotes and facts, backed up by cites, whereas he makes generalizations and the few times he posts quotes, doesn’t even offer the cite from which they come. His concept is that the only things that are true is what HE has lived.)

"That’s all. If you were to make a practice of not mouthing off, people wouldn't think of you in the same vein."

Oh... scuse me for having an opinion outside of what you believe. Now if I were to say, "Stop blathering on the interwebs and get into the kitchen where you belong.." Id be wrong, right? But you can say "not mouthing off" and its ALL GOOD, cus you know... libs have the "high" ground when it comes to stuff like this. (Not true. It’s not that he has differing opinions, it’s that he states his opinions as irrefutable facts, and often does so in a personally attacking style, as here. He quotes a statement that is sexist and nasty, and compares it to my statement of “mouthing off”—which is an accurate, if not polite, description of what he does; and there’s your “lumping”, along with his repeated nasty statements about hippies);

GRRRR: God your hypocrisy is so agrivating! (But accuse him of hypocrisy, and he’ll let fly with everything he’s got, make derogatory statements about “libs” and blame you for whatever he can come up with)

Raptor:

Quote:
But by no means have the insults and profanity exchanged been a 1 way street. ( I've also noticed some who routinely toss out vulgarities, yet seldom if ever get called on it. Only me, for some reason. )(nobody has come close to the vulgarities he has spewed, and others have been called out, it’s not just him—heck, I’ve called Mike out twice recently. But that’s the mindset.)

when simply having an opposing view point leads to all manner of baseless accusations, ulterior motives, and attempted character assassination... a strong reaction can't be ruled out. And that's what I give, from time to time, when called for. (again; many of us have opposing viewpoints, yet only a few regularly express their opposition in personal, insulting terms. The rest of us debate civilly. As to “a strong reaction”, his have been far stronger than almost anyone on this forum in the time I’ve been here, and have started sometimes out of nowhere, by the person he’s responding to doing just what he said; expressing an opposing view.)

How do you respond reasonably to those sorts of exaggerations and lies: One is left with several alternatives:

Attempt to prove your point by posting facts and cites;
Dip to their level of ugliness;
Ignore the poster.

I try to do them, in that order, now; previously I kept “biting” on the hook of their repeated insistence that only the can be right and (essentially) anyone who refutes them is an asshole. Took me forever, but I’m seeing the futility of that, and yes, I will call them out when the urge strikes, but I’ve never, NEVER been even half as ugly as they’ve been to me. I dare anyone to prove it, because they can’t.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 8:18 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

And yes, Mike is probably the worst offender on the other side; he’s a shit disturber to, I think most of us recognize that. He doesn’t contribute to civil discourse with the ugly among us, but that’s for him to decide and none of my business. I’m dealing with those who attack consistently and who cannot be reached in any way.

I agree with Mike as to the mindset of several here:

Quote:
Rappy wants to blame his behavior on anger and outrage, but his rage wasn't directed at BP, or even at the federal government - it was directed at YOU, personally, on a very visceral level. He can't even be honest about that.

In his impotence and outrage, anyone who could be seen at any level, even if only for a moment, to be "defending" the President, became a monster. Less than human. As you've pointed out, it's not something that should be easily forgotten, because it says something about his very nature and his core beliefs.

Kirk’s response to Anthony’s post is another example: “Asshole”, “grow a set of balls”, “5-year-old boy”...that’s the way a number of people here respond to anyone who disagrees with them, even to Anthony, who is unquestionably the most civil person here invariably.

Back to sickpuppets. I believe as Frem has explained:

Quote:
And, just to clarify one thing, the main purpose of the initial flood of sock puppets around here was to make it APPEAR that certain unpopular, inhumane political positions had far more support than they did - when no one would support such insanity, when no one would countenance such reprehensible concepts and ideas, the few folk spouting them decided to add a few more voices to their side even if they had to create them out of thin air, which is - for them that were not here when it occured, how that problem came to be.

which is why I think a number of “people” here were created and why I call them sickpuppets. It’s a pathetic ruse and I’d like to see it called out. The other reason I believe (mentioned by someone else) is for a person to be himself and somewhat reasonable, then to have a sickpuppet he can utilize to be really nasty, without being held responsible as his original personna.

Unfortunately, most people here were around long before me, so trying to date who is a sickpuppet no longer applies; I assume they keep those alternate identities on the back burner and bring them out when they are useful. There is too much of what Frem described and it doesn’t make sense not to believe some are duplicates. It matters little to me now; I know who is of the same ilk and it doesn’t matter if they are sickpuppets or not anymore.

Kirk, what Anthony said is perfect logic. He said “it depends on whether he believes them to be true.” That IS the same as what you said, in other words: If he believes it, he’s not lying; if he knows it’s false yet says it anyway, he IS lying. How is that not the same logic? Of COURSE people can believe in things that aren’t true, they do it every day. Whose god is real? Some religions will damn you to hell for not believing in “their” god, which is real to them; I believe in no god, which is what’s real to me. People believe FauxNews every DAY, when the fact is they lie deliberately and shamelessly. It’s perfectly human to believe things aren’t true. Would a child be deliberately “lying” if he believes in Santa Clause? Your reasoning is totally fallible.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 12:45 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"If those with delicate sensibilities like Anthony don't want conflict they should stay out of those threads specifically designed to incite it."

Hello,

I commented here to disagree with Niki about sockpuppets.

I expressed a counter-view that people with competitive natures and similar ideologies tend to band together for the purpose of winning. Also, a competitive person can pursue an argument indefinitely on forums because there is no authority that can declare them a loser. Hence, as long as they don't stop, they get to 'win.'

Then someone else said something I disagreed with, and I commented on that, too.

But you may be right in this: Banging my head against a particular wall is no way to improve my life or anyone else's. Doing so only amplifies the tension, stress, intolerance, lack of civility, and partisan attacks that trouble me.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 1:28 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Anthony: Agreed. This discussion has actually been more civil than many, as far as obscenities goes; only Kirk denegrated to get obscene, and ironically only to you.

What's been said, however, is a perfect example of the way these threads go. This wasn't intended as a thread to pile on someone, and it hasn't been. There have been views expressed that reflect many different opinions but, if you read it carefully, most of the posts from the RWAs are in one way or another attacking. Which is precisely my point. And there I'll leave it; I put this up to explain how I feel and why I am going to take the steps I am, and started it as "Just me". I expected it would meet with negativity, but it was my decision.

I hereby abandon the sickpuppet argument; it's irrelevant. My belief that some of our RWA memberes are trolls whose purpose is none other than to make outrageous statements to start something, and will deal with them thus. That's just how I feel. I'm also going to try and ignore their taunts more and try to get through to them less; hopefully responding to those who have something valid to offer might help get the thread back on track. It can't hurt anyway.

As to the snark about putting quotes in my signature; the minute I say anything equivalent to what I quoted, please go right ahead. Or do so whenever you choose, the latter has no effect on me; the former I would deserve, IF I did it.

The "delicate sensibilities" thing is a laugh; if people behaved IRL as they do here, they'd find they had few friends. It's not delicate sensibilities, it's responding to the Fuckwad theory, which runs rampant here. For me, that's all that needs saying.

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 1:41 PM

Those halcyon days of yesteryear that Kirk refers to? Yeah, they didn't really exist. Rappy was his usual vile self within less than 6 months of joining this site, calling anyone he disagreed with "stupid" or "retard" as his FIRST line of argument. It only takes a short walk down memory lane to see his real self just as he's always been...

Quote:
Friday, May 7, 2004 22:02

SigmaNunki: You must think I'm stupid.
AURaptor: In every way possible.

I realize in some contorted way you really wish there was some hypocricy here on my part, but there just isn't.

I didn't stat the thread. Never suggested you said I did, but it's a matter of fact that bears repeating. I didn't start it, thus it came about w/ out MY input.

Take all my comments out, the thread STILL exists. Are you following me? So far, that's me no start, me no maintain....

Me wishing it wouldn't be here doesn't make it so. I happen to agree the sentiment that political chats should not infiltrate this board. Since said threads are already here, you can't accuse me of being a hypocrite unless I started a thread or kept reposting answers over and over and over while no one else did. This is the last time I answer you on this. ( Re-read this post slowly, or have it read TO you, if that's what it takes for you to GET what I'm saying.)

(For the record, SigmaNunki never once said what Rappy claimed s/he said.)

It also bears noting that by his own definition, Rappy now IS that hypocrite, since he DOES post political threads, and he often IS the only one responding to them. :)

By the time I arrived here in 2005, Rappy was in full attack mode.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Saturday, June 5, 2010 1:46 PM