How do you spell Freedom from Oil? by AnthonyT

Anthony,

I think these sites are too low. I know we could do it in one year if we wanted to by just refitting all engines, seeing how the man hours involved are less than will be spent on our military industrial complex, and the dollars will be far less than the cost of our wars for the next year. In fact, you could pay for this with a random supplemental.

Yeah, sure, it won't, but I just wanted to set a benchmark.

If the soviets did it, it would be a five year plan.
If a president did it, he would plan it cleverly to go into practice just after he leaves office...

So. Realistically, we don't really need to get rid of oil, we need to get rid of the yahoos doing it, and replaced them with someone competent. We do need to kill coal. Still, I take your point, and getting rid of dependence on oil. Cars:

High powered fuel could increase efficiency considerably. 6% of gasoline goes into kinetic energy. There's a lot fo wiggle room and some very obvious ways of taking advantage of it

Solar cells can produce a large amount of the power needed, reducing the consumption of oil

Reduce the overall power consumption of engines. The pries consumes around 20kw, vs. 5.6for the tesla family car

Heat is trickier, but one way that has often struck me is "stop heating the outdoors." we have a lot of heating schemes here, and the waste is pretty incredible.

Another one: use sunlight. This would take longer, refitting houses, but still could be done.

But more than anything, we need to change our political investment. About a century ago, the PTB decided to create a world energy scheme which required the purchase of a commodity in order to continue to run. The only way to destroy commodity control is to wreck the price. Right now, e anger at BP is actually fueling support for the oil industry by forcing the false shortage, which the industry has been doing for ages.

I'll gnaw on it some more

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:34 PM

Oh, from my mechanic:

A new electric car can do about 280 miles on a charge. The limiting factor is the batteries, the upgrade costs under three grand.

Also, he says just about any car can be converted to electric, and its really not all that difficult. You can take a regular chevy S10 and just put an electric motor in it. If so, that seems a lot cheaper to me than buying everyone a new car.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:39 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

That suits me just fine. Hell, I always thought pickups were natural choices for electric. Lots of cargo space for batteries.

However, I do think a purpose-built electric car is likely to be much more efficient than a conversion.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:41 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
Natural gas

Natural gas has the advantage of being abundant right now and it will burn in almost all cars currently on the road. Other technologies will be adopted as they become viable, but if the government gets involved in picking the winners in the alternative fuel race we'll end up with a huge waste of money and an inferior solution like ethanol. Government involvement should be limited to research money for existing companies that can prove to an independent board of scientists that their new technology has promise. We don't need billions of dollar in funding to go to every crazy idea, we need real solutions that can be scaled up fast to make a real difference. If getting rid of oil dependence is the goal then technologies like solar power currently have too high of an initial investment involved to be viable for the masses. Electric cars powered by clean coal and natural gas hybrids make the most sense in the near term and could make a real difference immediately.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Electric cars powered by clean coal and natural gas hybrids make the mose sense in the near term and could make a real difference immediately."

Hello,

I don't think the electric cars need to be powered by clean coal. If someone can stick a panel on the roof and charge their car, that's the best possible solution.

That having been said, I think powering an electric off the grid, any existing grid, is better than operating millions of little combustion engines.

I like natural gas. I also like Hydrogen, though I think the technology isn't there yet. Electic makes me all tingly because it grants the possibility of energy independence. No other fuel is free after the initial investment in infrastructure. I could drive everywhere I usually go, all year round, and for free... If I just had an electric car and a solar panel.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:00 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

There is no such thing as clean coal.

And everything you said is valid, Anthony, but how do you convince people to DO IT?! When you've got people still convincing themselves that oil is infinite, you havent even begun the job of moving away from it.

I'm sorry, I just don't that kind of faith in mankind.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:02 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I could drive everywhere I usually go, all year round, and for free... If I just had an electric car and a solar panel.

--Anthony

As long as you don't mind driving cross country in 200 mile increments with 8-24 hours stops for charging, more power to you.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:06 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Yes, if I drove cross-country a lot, it would be a problem.

But I don't. I haven't done a drive in excess of 100 miles since 2004.

And if I needed to make that rare trip? Well, I could rent a car, buy premium, and still come out ahead after my once-per-decade road trip.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:11 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Yes, if I drove cross-country a lot, it would be a problem.

But I don't. I haven't done a drive in excess of 100 miles since 2004.

And if I needed to make that rare trip? Well, I could rent a car, buy premium, and still come out ahead after my once-per-decade road trip.

--Anthony

If every two car family bought one electric car for around town and kept one of their gas guzzlers for cross county it would still make a huge difference.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:15 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"If every two car family bought one electric car for around town and kept one of their gas guzzlers for cross county it would still make a huge difference."

Hello,

True enough. Or if you're like me, and the whole house shares one car, make it a plug-in hybrid.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 10:29 AM

MANGOLO

Are we speaking of just oil for fuel or oil for all petroleum based products?

Fuel: we could easily do it in less than 5 years.

This time next year our family oil for fuel should go to near to zero. My 1 year plan is to install a microhydro system big enough to give me power for an EV (Nissan LEAF or?) We already have solar hot water and PV for the house.

I read a study last year that compared keeping your old gas guzzler (ie 15 mpg) versus dumping it for a hybrid. For the first 5 years the hybrid is still working off the carbon foot print of manufacturing it.

BTW The rare earths that are used in making the ceramic parts for hybrids come from some of the most toxic strip mines in the world. Nothing is simple, eh?

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 10:38 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If plastics can be recycled efficiently, the amount of new petroleum we need could become very small once fuel replacement has occurred. Not to mention that there are other places to get oil than out of a well.

But no, nothing is ever simple. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, as they say. Everything has a cost, and even green technology isn't all green. We can only hope to shop around for the best deal we can negotiate for ourselves. Less is More, in this case. Even if the alternative energy wasn't green at all, it'd be worth investing in for the health of my pocketbook. Renewable energy is very inexpensive once the collection and infrastructure investment is complete.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 11:01 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Not that electric cars aren't a good idea, but there are currently a few limiting conditions.

1. They generally take quite a while to recharge. Electric car filling stations aren't going to be practical until recharge IS down to 5 minutes, or there's a universal battery pack that can be swapped out quickly. The new Nissan Leaf, with a 100 mile range, takes 8 hours to recharge on it's special 220/240V 40 Amp charger.

2. Batteries are still expensive (The Leaf runs around $34,000.00, compared to $10,000 for the similar-size Nissan Versa, and still $26,000+ after all government rebates) and may not have as long a service life as the rest of the car. If they fail in 5 years (Nissan says 5-10 years on the Leaf) in a car that could otherwise go 15, and replacement is currently pretty expensive. It'll probably come down, but I'm not sure it's quite there yet. Recycling of used batteries may also be an issue.

3. Energy to charge electric cars has to come from somewhere, and unfortunately that's likely to be coal or gas-fired plants. Also not sure if the power grid can deal with the additional drain. Solar cells on the car won't be an option until they are orders of magnitude more efficient than we got now.

4. Converting existing cars to electric is doable, but it's sort of a kludge. The efficient battery packs are custom designed for the cars they go in, so conversions end up being done with good old heavy lead-acid batteries. These can add up to a ton of weight to a vehicle, overloading the suspension and brakes and making them dangerous to drive.

If I wanted to cut down on oil usage right away, I'd try to get people into small gas or hybrid cars. Upping the price of gas via tax might do it. A Civic hybrid gets 40mpg city/45mpg highway an starts at $23,000. Ford Fusion is slightly bigger gets 41 city/36 highway. Most car companies have similar stuff. They're pretty efficient, and aren't tied to a recharger 8 hours for every 100 miles driven.

I'd also do stuff like Washington D.C.'s 5 cent tax on any disposable bag. Get folks to carry reusable bags. And tax or ban plastic water bottles (although they sure are handy

).

I don't doubt that in a while electric cars will become more user-friendly and common, but I don't see them as much of a force right now.

ETA: don't forget that if your electric car runs out of juice, it's probably gonna need a tow to a recharger at the very least. A Hybrid just needs a couple of gallons of gas.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 11:51 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Yes, if I drove cross-country a lot, it would be a problem.

But I don't. I haven't done a drive in excess of 100 miles since 2004.

And if I needed to make that rare trip? Well, I could rent a car, buy premium, and still come out ahead after my once-per-decade road trip.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

That's why I got rid of my full-size pickup, Anthony. I just wasn't using it enough to justify the payments, the insurance, the $85 fill-ups... I decided if I needed a pickup, I could rent one at the Home Despot [sic] for $20 a day, and call it good.

The number one thing we can do is MAKE THE COMMITMENT, and REMEMBER THAT WE MADE THE COMMITMENT.

Lower the demand for oil, and the oil companies will lower the price. When that happens, car companies will start producing more Hummer H2s and Ford Excursions, and politicians will sign tax breaks for people who buy them. You have to make a concerted effort and a commitment to NOT do shit like that, or all your other efforts are for naught.

What can YOU do, yourself, right now?

Check your tire pressures. Tune up your car. Go from low-profile, wide, performance (grippier) tires to taller, thinner, harder-compound, lower-rolling-resistance tires. Practice "hyper-miling"; it's more fun and challenging than you'd think. Shift at 2500rpm, or even less. I can idle along at 40mph in 5th gear at 900rpm, if I don't need to accelerate anytime this century. :) If I need to get going, I have to drop it three gears down (to second) and nail it. But I've gotten my mileage above 55mpg on one tank just assing around that way.

Depending on the car, let the engine do more of your braking, especially if it's a manual transmission. If you put it in neutral and coast down or use the brake, you're still feeding fuel to the engine while it's idling. If you coast down in gear, the fuel flow is cut, and the pumping action (drag) of the engine helps slow you down. In short, if you have to use the brake pedal, you fail. Oddly, you can INCREASE mileage in some circumstances by flooring the throttle at lower rpm, trading torque for horsepower (lower revs, fewer revolutions of the engine, fewer sprays of fuel, and MORE throttle opening allowing more air into the cylinders).

When I was playing with hypermiling, I would launch in first gear, floor it up to 2000rpm, shift, repeat. Keep the revs LOW.

But again, that's just little things we can ALL do, to one extent or another.

Combine trips. Carpool if you can. Ride a bike. Walk to the corner store instead of driving there to get your beer or smokes; hey, you might get healthier to boot. Go figure...

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:07 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Geezer,

You have some good points. I will disagree on a few minor areas, but overall your assessment is sound.

1) Electric cars generally take quite a while to recharge, but this is changing. I've been reading articles like this one that suggest brighter days are on the horizon: http://www.ecogeek.org/component/content/article/1533 Also, I'm not at all opposed to plug-in hybrids, which offer the best of both worlds.

2) Batteries are incredibly expensive. But this, too, is a situation that is changing every day. The more people invest in electric cars, the cheaper this technology will become.

3) It is generally considered better for 100,000 people to draw energy from one 'dirty' plant than for those same folks to get power from 100,000 combustion engines. I don't have cites for this, but I swear I read it somewhere. ;-) Feel free to call bogus on this if you have contrary information. As for solar cells, the place to put them is on your house, not the car. Sell energy to the power company all day, and then buy it back to charge your car each night. A supplemental solar panel on the car's roof might not be an awful idea, though. Especially if, like me, your car sits parked in the sun for 8 hours each day. I drive about 2-3 miles to get to work, and it's possible 8 hours in the sun could actually replace the energy used during the trip. This is 80% of the driving I do.

4) I agree here. This is why the only car I've really thought would make a decent conversion is a truck, since it's already primed for the weight and has a ready-made cargo area for the batteries. Makes it useless as a truck, of course.

I agree with you that hybrid cars are the immediate solution until the rest of everything gets into place. If they are plug-in hybrids, they can operate as electric cars most of the time, and use gas only for emergencies/long trips.

Also, if your car runs out of juice, the answer to that is probably a simple technology: An emergency battery pack that can plug into the cigarette lighter or some specialty plug and move the car 5-10 miles in a crisis. They have similar emergency battery packs for jump starting your car. People usually keep it in their trunk. Of course, again, a plug-in hybrid solves this problem, since you are carrying a portable electric generator in the car at all times.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 2:43 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I've been reading articles like this one that suggest brighter days are on the horizon: http://www.ecogeek.org/component/content/article/1533 Also, I'm not at all opposed to plug-in hybrids, which offer the best of both worlds.

Unfortunately, the cityZENN seems to be one of those projects that's "just around the corner" but never makes the turn. A lot of the smaller efforts to make cheap electric cars seem to be in the same boat. I suspect that it'll be a major carmaker who does it, and the quick (5 minute) recharge won't be soon. I'm betting hybrid, especially plug-in, holds a large percent of the Green market for quite some time.

Quote:
The more people invest in electric cars, the cheaper this technology will become.

I'm expecting that the more research is done, the cheaper they'll get, but I'm not expecting any big breakthrough, just incremental improvement over several years.

Quote:
As for solar cells, the place to put them is on your house, not the car. Sell energy to the power company all day, and then buy it back to charge your car each night.

Depends on where you live. A condo or appartment may not allow you to have a roof to use. Solar is a good idea, but everyone can't access the rays.

Quote:
A supplemental solar panel on the car's roof might not be an awful idea, though.

Apparently the Leaf does have an option for a panel on the spoiler to charge a battery for accessories like radio and a/c fan.

Quote:
Also, if your car runs out of juice, the answer to that is probably a simple technology: An emergency battery pack that can plug into the cigarette lighter or some specialty plug and move the car 5-10 miles in a crisis.

This'd be a good idea, but looking on the Nissan Leaf site, for example, I see no discussion of it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 3:15 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I'm expecting that the more research is done, the cheaper they'll get, but I'm not expecting any big breakthrough, just incremental improvement over several years."

Hello,

I'm actually hoping for that next-gen breakthrough. I read something a year or two ago about using nanotubes to make better batteries. I figure it'll take 5-10 years for them to make it happen. But when it does? I think batteries will become twice as good, or better, almost overnight. It'll be a revolutionary type change, I figure. Like the transistor.

But that's a dream and a hope. You're right- plug-in hybrids are right now.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:17 PM

Geez

Check out the tesla family car. Things are ramming up real quick.

Also, can I make a plug for nuclea here? The power of a decent third gen nuke generator dwarfs anything else we have

Also, I'd gladly take oil over nat gas, coal or biofuels, since all of the latter are far more ecodamaging. I think oil is pretty ecosafe, though not as much as wind, solar or nuclear. It's just that you cant have halfassed douche bags running oil wells. Bp has in my mind sacrificed it's right to that oil, our oil, and someone else should drill it.

After someone plugs the damn hole.

Right now were doing everything possible to *stop* nat gas and coal, which are wreaking havoc on our landscape and water supply. Sort of on a level of nuclear war, so it's not slight.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:20 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I didn't know natural gas was hurting the environment. Half the appliances in my house use gas. I've always been led to believe it was a good economical and eco friendly option.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:29 PM

The way I see it, we're exactly ONE breakthrough away from a monumental revolution in battery technology, just as we're one breakthrough away from a monumental revolution in solar cell technology.

What that breakthrough is, and when we'll hit it, is the open question. But it will be to those technologies what the silicon microprocessor was to computers. Until that happens, hybrid cars can still have solar cells imbedded in their roofs, sunroof panels, and trunks (the hood may be problematic, due to engine heat); those panels won't provide enough power to charge the battery at anything above a trickle (they sell "trickle chargers" for regular cars, which use a small solar panel that plugs into the lighter socket to help maintain a full battery charge), but they can help generate power to keep the interior cool in summer and warm in winter, power an engine-block heater for extreme winter climates, power a de-icer system, etc.

And yes, you'll absolutely be able to use your smartphone to tell your car to crank up the A/C 15 minutes before you get out to the hot parking lot. :)

I'd say we're a few iPad/iPod/iPhone Apps away from being able to customize our cars' performance parameters. Anyone who dabbles with performance tuning on modern cars knows about "chipping" the car's ECU (Electronic Control Unit), the computer that controls the car's fuel maps, shift logic, etc. What if you could just pull up your customized iPod App that would allow you to have extra performance if you wanted it (poorer fuel mileage would likely attend the added performance), or allow you to choose extreme fuel efficiency at the cost of performance? And what if these were just a few touch commands away, and easily (and safely) reversible? That's where we're going now. Just watch - you'll have an App for snow driving, which will alter the antilock brakes, slow the steering ration a bit, start off in 2nd or 3rd gear, dull the pedal response (the key to driving in snow and ice is SLOW actions, not sudden ones!), you'll have an App for launch control (select "Launch", put the gear selector in first gear, stand on the throttle - which will hold the revs at 3000rpm or so, and then just sidestep the clutch, dropping it instantly - and away you'll go, at maximum velocity, with no drama and no wheelspin.

Better still, you'll have automated transmissions that will be adaptive, and you can switch between YOUR driving style, and your wife's (or husband's), and the gas pedal will react differently, the shift points will be different, etc.

And you will be able to program all of it - easily - to allow you greater fuel mileage, less emissions, or whatever you want your car to be at the moment.

Just a thought.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:38 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I've always wished I had a speed governor that I could 'plug in' to my car somehow, and dial up the maximum speed I want to achieve at any given time.

I hope the customizable performance you speak of materializes.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I've always wished I had a speed governor that I could 'plug in' to my car somehow, and dial up the maximum speed I want to achieve at any given time.

I hope the customizable performance you speak of materializes.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

I agree, Anthony - I'd love to be able to set my route and set the maximum speeds along it, with speed traps in mind. I have a tendency to speed a bit, and tend to drive at a speed that seems reasonable, safe, and prudent, but may not coincide with the posted limits at the time.

The fear I have of such systems and capabilities is the fear that if *I* can set my maximum speed, so can someone else set my maximum speed.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:00 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

True enough. They can already shut some of em down by remote.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 1:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I didn't know natural gas was hurting the environment. Half the appliances in my house use gas. I've always been led to believe it was a good economical and eco friendly option.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Anthony - I'd been led to believe the same things. You should look into a new documentary called "Gasland". NPR's Fresh Air did an interview with the film maker last week which was pretty eye-opening. It's not just the gas itself, but how they go after it, that is having the biggest negative impact on the environment. Crazy things like people being able to light their tapwater on fire, their water wells exploding, etc.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 4:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Yes, if I drove cross-country a lot, it would be a problem.

But I don't. I haven't done a drive in excess of 100 miles since 2004.

And if I needed to make that rare trip? Well, I could rent a car, buy premium, and still come out ahead after my once-per-decade road trip.

--Anthony

If every two car family bought one electric car for around town and kept one of their gas guzzlers for cross county it would still make a huge difference.

Very good point.

I don't expect us to get *OFF* oil; but I *DO* know that we can use a hell of a lot LESS of it than we currently do, and we can do it without endangering or really inconveniencing anyone; we just have to be a little more thoughtful and a little less lazy to do it.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Geez

Check out the tesla family car. Things are ramming up real quick.

Also, can I make a plug for nuclea here? The power of a decent third gen nuke generator dwarfs anything else we have

Also, I'd gladly take oil over nat gas, coal or biofuels, since all of the latter are far more ecodamaging. I think oil is pretty ecosafe, though not as much as wind, solar or nuclear. It's just that you cant have halfassed douche bags running oil wells. Bp has in my mind sacrificed it's right to that oil, our oil, and someone else should drill it.

After someone plugs the damn hole.

Right now were doing everything possible to *stop* nat gas and coal, which are wreaking havoc on our landscape and water supply. Sort of on a level of nuclear war, so it's not slight.

Tesla is a move in the right direction, but it's still going to be quite expensive. They've made a lot of noise about how it's going to be "affordable" ($50,000 price range) and have great range and great performance, but so far all I've heard is talk. And the original Tesla Roadster hasn't really proven to be all that, either. Top Gear ran one against the car it's based on, the Lotus Elise, and the Tesla overheated and shut down pretty quickly. They had some other problems with it, too.

As a TOY, some of these are quite fine, and a lot of fun. But as a real, daily-driven, only-car-you-own kind of car, really the only viable choices now (as Geezer has correctly pointed out more than once already) are the gas-electric hybrids. The Chevy Volt promises a lot, but nobody has really gotten to flog one around for 40,000 miles to see what its real-world limitations and expectations are. Ditto the new Tesla (why can't I remember its name?) and the Fisker Karma, which also promises a whole lot of potential (but at a $100,000 price, alas...).

But the thing is, there ARE choices available RIGHT NOW. This hasn't always been the case. We CAN use less oil and gas, we CAN make that choice and do it really easily. All we have to do is choose to do it.

Does America have the guts and determination to do that, and do we have the long-term memory to stick by the harder choice even when gas prices are kept artificially low?

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:08 AM