Brave New World 'Feelies' edge closer to reality by AnthonyT

What do you have in mind could happen if CIA invests in this? It sounds like headphones with a more immersive vibration component (and controllers already have that). Are you thinking the technology could be developed further and then used for torture, gathering intel by deceiving someone of what is truly real or just monitoring purposes? Also, I'm thinking Fahrenheit 451 -- did television screens become one of the primary forms of entertainment but also the primary means of government monitoring individuals because it was 2 ways (I might be misremembering)?.

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:06 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I can probably only imagine a tenth of what they could use it for. But essentially, if the equipment can make you feel things that aren't true (falling, dizzyness, vertigo, etc) then it might be used to make you feel things that are uncomfortable.

Possibly combined with medicines that alter reality perception, a person could be tortured incessantly without leaving a mark, and with no risk of drowning.

This is my concern. And I'm somewhat concerned that the possibility occurred to me so quickly. What does that say about me?

In any event, I imagine a machine that can make you 'feel' things without anything actually happening to you would be an unscrupulous interrogator's dream.

--Anthony

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:29 AM

Ah, so the torture could go on incessantly, without the bother of the victim going and dying, and taking all the fun out of it... Sadly, I think some torturers wouldn't find virtual torture all that appealing. Rather than watching someone scream in an isolated room, they probably delight in watching the person become afraid of what they personally are going to do, and they delight in the injuries they inflict in so many ways and the physical trophies they get to keep... But this is a bit morbid of a line of thought processes for me.

I think in the US, we would have regulations about the use of torture that would apply here (and also questions of whether torture even produces reliable information). (ETA: The laws forbiding cruel and unusual punishment would at least apply for citizens -- and hopefully we would give all people coverage under that law) For example, even though it wouldn't necessarily cause physically demonstrable harm, there would still be the psychological trauma that would be inflicted, clinically measurable and perhaps even biologically measurable in an individual.

As you mention, though, there will always be those who are unscrupulous...

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:35 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Indeed. And it seems the changing of the executive can also change the whole landscape of attitudes on acceptable torture. Never mind that we have been quite content to export our torture at times.

Of course, I don't suggest that this technology should be outlawed or any such thing. It is but one more tool in the hands of humanity. I simply become sad when I think of how it might be mis-used.

If I had the authority, I'd closely monitor any intel-agency investment in this stuff. But I have no such authority, and any such investment would probably be listed as 'training simulator' or some such innocuous line-item.

--Anthony

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:36 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Speaking of tech stuff... seen the new 3D TVs (not to mention movies)...

am I the only one who gets a horrible headache from them?

I watched "UP' in 3D... and after the movie was over (it was good), I almost threw up in the batroom because of the migraine I got.

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:46 AM

I doubt you are the only one. A similarity is in home movie projectors. Some people can see something called the rainbow effect which really bothers them -- other people don't see it at all and have no problems viewing a projected movie. I wouldn't be surprised if some people just don't tolerate current 3d technology, even if we can't come up with a reason for it like the "rainbow effect" yet.

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:56 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I suspect everyone's tolerance is different to various technologies. My wife can't watch IMAX movies, because they make her nauseous. She is very movement sensitive, and can even become ill on bumpy car rides.

Someday perhaps there will be tests that reveal why these intolerances happen. The specific neural agencies will be investigated and thoroughly understood. And while the movie industry takes steps to minimize the problem, the 'feelies' owned by the intel agencies will doubtless be tuned up to take advantage.

*sigh*

--Anthony

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Someday perhaps there will be tests that reveal why these intolerances happen. The specific neural agencies will be investigated and thoroughly understood. And while the movie industry takes steps to minimize the problem, the 'feelies' owned by the intel agencies will doubtless be tuned up to take advantage.

*sigh*

--Anthony

(tone = heavy sarcasm)
Now Anthony,don't you get yourself all worried about what the intel agencies might come up with. Just don't *do* anything to make them suspect you of being a threat to national security... Then you'll be just fine and dandy... Surely everyone the agencies decide to pick up for "questioning" must have been doing something suspicious...

(I'm sorry, I don't know what came over me. I think I must have been channelling Mike or Frem, or something...)

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 7:33 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

LOL!

I actually had a friend once who told me that the CIA was a benevolent agency.

I tried to convince him that at best it was a malignant agency that we hoped (and often failed ) to steer towards people who would harm us.

We never did see eye-to-eye on the benevolence of government, or the altruism of the Central Intelligence Agency.

--Anthony

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 7:55 AM

Quote:
Now Anthony,don't you get yourself all worried about what the intel agencies might come up with. Just don't *do* anything to make them suspect you of being a threat to national security... Then you'll be just fine and dandy... Surely everyone the agencies decide to pick up for "questioning" must have been doing something suspicious...

Except for the sarcasm, you might have been channeling my parents. Either way,

XD

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 8:00 AM

I also join in with my general feeling of apprehension, and add my horrified disbelief at how society seems so hell-bent on moving towards any number of dystopian novels.

This tech, whether a pleasant experience or not, can serve no good purpose. I note pleasure can be addictive.

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 8:25 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ah, but as I am ever fond of reminding you, the sword of technology has TWO edges.

Instead of wondering how they'll use it against you - you could jump to the other end and ponder how you can/will use it against THEM, legally, by getting in and mucking up the works before they outlaw it's use in that fashion.

Just look at the bruhah back and forth now that we've turned their own surveillence society against them, to mock, humiliate, intimidate, and expose their abuses - and how they're screamin it oughta be illegal for us to do so, and how long that took ?

We will always, ALWAYS have the jump on them in that fashion, so long as we are PRO-active and thinking in an aggressive fashion rather than RE-active and thinking like a victim waiting to happen... don't fall into the mental trap of believing you *HAVE* to be their plaything, turn it round on them and make them start hopping to YOUR tune, without them even being aware of it, or even earnestly believing THEY are the ones holding the puppet strings, while they dance, dance, dance...

Heaven knows you watched me to do that shit to Rappy often enough, you should figure how that works.

Just imagine being able to befoul a politicians credibility by making HIM feel like it's raining on a dry sunny day, while he's making some impassioned speech about how we need to hand over more freedoms and money so (enemy of the hour) doesn't get us - and won't THAT be fun to watch as he starts acting "crazy" on national TV, meh ?

Hell, GeekFarm is far ahead enough of the curve that they're already working on HERF-proof electronics.

-Frem

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 8:35 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Just imagine being able to befoul a politicians credibility by making HIM feel like it's raining on a dry sunny day, while he's making some impassioned speech about how we need to hand over more freedoms and money so (enemy of the hour) doesn't get us - and won't THAT be fun to watch as he starts acting "crazy" on national TV, meh ?"

Hello,

I don't think I could do that to someone unless it was a choice between that or shooting them.

I hope that's not a choice I ever have to make.

--Anthony

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 10:52 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Bah, when someone plans to do ill unto me, against my will - has publicly declared that intent, and has a bunch of cheering jackboot lickers all ready to put it into action...

I am not so polite as you are about it.

But then, at that point what I *want* is their head on a spike out in my front yard as a warning, so by comparison mockery and humiliation is a kindness.

-F

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 3:52 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

Good point, a point I just jaded in johns thread about GPS and remote computing, think of how we can use it against them. And, the main way is that we can use new technology to organize us much better than either side will use it as a weapon.

On herf, I can think of a lot of ways around it, but the simplest one is redundancy. Redundancy is why an army works, because it's not a single guy, and so doesn't lose when it gets shot. But redundancy is already massively implemented, which is why it will precede shielding and kinetic computing and a fair amount of stuff which has already been designed.

Of course technology does provide a master of the world power, major players can trounce penny ante ones, which is all we seem to do these days anyway.

But I think Wulf has the salient point: as a product, it won't fly. You can know that i'm not about to strap something to my chest that will send shocks into it. It might last ling enough to kill some poor kid, but I'm not even sure you can simulate emotions with this. You might want to go with chemically dosing the players or running wires into their brains to hijack their sensory system. Maybe you can do that with some sort of ou,se signal and not have to run wires into their brains

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 4:06 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Dream,

From what I've seen, the device looks like a pair of headphones you wear around your neck that hang down below your clavicle.

Not exactly an invasive type technology. If it can make you feel anything, I reckon it, or a future variant of it, will be as popular as vibrating handsets for video games.

--Anthony

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:17 PM

At the risk of sounding REALLY tin foil hat, a brain is only a bunch of conductive goop with electrical current running through parts of it at a controlled rate.

Don't even have to have a wire to generate an electrical current, just electrons to be able to move and a voltage difference.

Apply electrodes directly to the brain, you can influence emotions and sensations. There's nothing really limiting the application of that to a wireless system based in air. The only questions they need to solve is first knowing exactly the right area and how much current to apply for the response wanted, and how to target the specific areas they want to stimulate.

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:22 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I actually had a friend once who told me that the CIA was a benevolent agency.

For the most part, I believe it is. But the higher you go up the chain, the less that's true. IMO.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:30 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I actually had a friend once who told me that the CIA was a benevolent agency.

For the most part, I believe it is. But the higher you go up the chain, the less that's true. IMO.

The laughing Chrisisall

Hello,

That's a lot like saying that the individual agents might be okay guys, but the people in charge, who direct the agency as a whole, are bad mojo.

Which... makes the agency a malevolent force. Ostensibly for good. Kind of like employing a demon as a bodyguard.

--Anthony

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:33 PM

CHRISISALL

I believe that was what I said, in less specific words.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:35 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Speaking of tech stuff... seen the new 3D TVs (not to mention movies)...

am I the only one who gets a horrible headache from them?

I watched "UP' in 3D... and after the movie was over (it was good), I almost threw up in the batroom because of the migraine I got.

You lasted the whole movie? I couldn't get more than 30 seconds in before that feeling hit me. And worse - I can't see the 3D effect on the screen! I tried 3 different pairs of glasses at the BuyMore (BestBuy), and all I could see was blurry double-image movie stuff that made me feel sick and gave me a headache.

I'll keep my real world in three dimensions, and my TV world in two, thank you very much.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:39 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I tried 3 different pairs of glasses at the BuyMore (BestBuy), and all I could see was blurry double-image movie stuff that made me feel sick and gave me a headache.

3D CHUCK wan' that good either. Just sayin'.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 5:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
At the risk of sounding REALLY tin foil hat, a brain is only a bunch of conductive goop with electrical current running through parts of it at a controlled rate.

Don't even have to have a wire to generate an electrical current, just electrons to be able to move and a voltage difference.

Apply electrodes directly to the brain, you can influence emotions and sensations. There's nothing really limiting the application of that to a wireless system based in air. The only questions they need to solve is first knowing exactly the right area and how much current to apply for the response wanted, and how to target the specific areas they want to stimulate.

That's not tin hat at all, Byte - that's tested and verified. I was just hearing about an experiment where subjects were asked questions dealing with situational ethics. For example, a child accidentally kills 2 of his classmates through a simple thoughtless act. And another child maliciously injures one of his classmates in a knowing, willful manner. Which child is worse?

It was stuff along those lines. And one group just got asked the questions, while another group had a small electrical current fed into their brain, just below and behind their right ear, I believe it was. The control group tended to go by emotion in their decision-making ( the "evil" child is the one who hurt someone intentionally, not the one who killed others by accident), to a pretty consistent number, while the test group (the ones receiving the current to the brain) overwhelmingly voted purely based on logic. One child hurt < two children killed, so the kid who did it by accident was worse, because the outcome was worse.

Pretty eye-opening stuff, the idea that you could that simply - and non-invasively, really - turn off emotional decision-making, and boil it down to pure logical terms. And I'm not comfortable with it.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 17, 2010 7:11 PM

Hmm. Does thoughtless in this case indicate the outcome was readily predictable? Does it mean selfish and self serving?

I'm not sure which is worse, technically. The meanings of thoughtless I can imagine makes the killing of two students no quite so much accidental but either negligent or indirect. As such, it could be considered as unethical and destructive as direct malice.

That anyone dies at all is of course not better or worse, it's bad regardless of number.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 1:44 AM

I get what you're saying, but methodology aside, the results were pretty clear. One group was "allowed" to let emotion into their decision making, while the other was "forced" (by electric current) to use nothing but cold logic.

The experiment was designed to test whether altering electric currents in specific brain areas would predictably alter thought processes. It was shown that it indeed can.

No children were actually hurt or killed; the questions are mere hypotheticals. And I'm sure I'm paraphrasing them wrong, and they were surely worded better than my description of them. Heck, they may have even sounded plausible!

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 18, 2010 5:31 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'm curious about the experiment, because I'm fairly certain that there are cases where cold logic could come to the opposite conclusion, sans emotion.

--Anthony

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Friday, June 18, 2010 5:44 AM

Hey Anthony,
This link isn't quite what Mike is referring to (I think I heard a snippet of what he is talking about on npr), but it might put you on the right track: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/moral-control-0330.html

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Friday, June 18, 2010 5:59 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

This is interesting. However, I'm not sure that what's being turned off or altered is just 'emotion' or 'emotional content' to the reasoning process.

There are good, reasoned, logical arguments that might reach both conclusions. What if, instead of merely impairing emotional content, these experiments are impairing complex analysis?

--Anthony

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Friday, June 18, 2010 6:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachite:
Hey Anthony,
This link isn't quite what Mike is referring to (I think I heard a snippet of what he is talking about on npr), but it might put you on the right track: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/moral-control-0330.html

Thanks, Mal - yeah, I heard it on NPR's "On Science" podcast, I think it was. I've no doubt made a hack of trying to describe it correctly, but that was the gist of what I got out of it.

Again, it's fascinating not because of HOW they did it, but because they were able to realistically alter the WAY people think, which I find quite disturbing.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 18, 2010 7:33 AM

Was this the npr link? (it might be referring to the same study) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125304448

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Friday, June 18, 2010 7:35 AM

That sounds like the one, Mal.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 18, 2010 7:58 AM

I haven't had time to look at the article I linkied to yet, but I think my link was on a study concerning adults and morality. I thought the blurb I heard from npr was concerning elementary school children and altered morality, though. Are you remembering a study with adults, or children? I may have to keep searching later...

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Friday, June 18, 2010 8:01 AM

I like Anthony's take, it's something I was thinking about without knowing directly how to verbalize what I was thinking.

I would have a difficult time processing information and making a decision with an errant electrical current running through my brain, too. How many of them had trouble concentrating, I wonder? Could there have been any sort of suggestion involved that could have influenced the people with the current, and the current made them more susceptible to it (being less able to concentrate)? Where were the subjects drawn from, and might that introduce a bias into the results?

Any experiment like this, which is about manipulating people and trying to prove that people are either inherently evil or can be MADE to be so must be taken with a bit of wariness about the motivations of the people involved, how and WHY they did it and what their real agenda is. It's like that other thread we discussed, about logic and ethics, where I argued with Rue that the experiment was built to encourage a specific outcome. Careful careful.

As a trickster myself, to a small degree, I know it's possible to make people think you can read minds, and even control their actions. The troubling thing is that they'll LET YOU DO IT. Frem deals with people who don't think he can, but you can get the same effect with people WHO DO.

Why do you think a hypnotist show is always sprinkled with a couple of plants to encourage the actual volunteers to play along? Why are the people who resist the hypnotist at the very beginning of the show, when the hypnotist is "testing their suggestibility," always asked to go ahead and sit back down?

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Friday, June 18, 2010 8:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachite:
I haven't had time to look at the article I linkied to yet, but I think my link was on a study concerning adults and morality. I thought the blurb I heard from npr was concerning elementary school children and altered morality, though. Are you remembering a study with adults, or children? I may have to keep searching later...

If I'm not mistaken, the children get mentioned later in the podcast. Or I could be remembering a totally different story about it...

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 18, 2010 9:07 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I definitely think this test (altering the electromagnetic properties within the brain) proves that you can change how people think. I'm not entirely sure you can jump to the conclusion about why they think that way. (The assumption that empathy has been turned off, and that alone accounts for the difference.) It may be that more than just emotions have been shut off. Or it may be that choosing the lesser fatality is actually more humane. Maybe anger gets shut off, but not compassion. Maybe some people without emotions can come to different conclusions based on different lines of thought. When you scramble the mind, I think it's hard to know exactly what you have scrambled. One switch may affect multiple circuits.

--Anthony

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Friday, June 18, 2010 9:13 AM

True, true.

It does tend to validate Byte's earlier "tinfoil hat" idea that we're all just superconducting goop, though. :)

Which, by the way, is where the original idea for "The Matrix" came from - another experiment, this one a thought experiment, wherein the question is basically this: If your brain could be kept alive in a jar, suspended in liquid (think Futurama's Nixon, for instance), yet by electrical impulses be made to think that it was in a body, existing and interacting with the real world on a daily basis, and your brain became aware of this...

Would you want out of the jar?

The basic premise is to get you thinking about the ideas of "what IS life?" and "what IS thought?" and "what IS free will?" Would you take a "life" that was complete within itself, although you were really just a brain in a jar, or would you prefer to just be removed from the jar, and possibly die in the process?

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 18, 2010 9:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think it would depend on how happy I was with my life, and whether I had a desire to explore beyond it.

There was an episode of TNG about this, too, where Moriarty was cruelly confined in a virtual prison forever.

But if you remember the Matrix, they specifically targeted people who were unhappy. "You've always felt like there was something wrong, something not right. You've always wanted to know what was amiss with the world," etc. Then the pill. "You can choose to continue your life, or you can choose to find a new reality."

Of course, at least one person who got out had some buyer's remorse. ;-)

In purest essence, we are all living inside a jar. I think that the concept of a soul and the concept of heaven isn't merely a wish for continuance and immortality... But also a wish that we might someday escape the jar.

--Anthony

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Friday, June 18, 2010 9:49 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Can my jar survive if my remote body dies?
I like my jar.
Can I get additional bodies?
I love my jar.
Jar Jar Thinks!
Ja Ja Rules!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, June 18, 2010 10:44 AM

DREAMTROVE

The article said something about compression waves to the chest, but that's just symptomatic of the entire idea: they're fucking around way past their understanding.

The brain is not an electric circuit, its a collection of thinking single celled beings suspend in a colloidal mix. The decisions are based on the outcome of a deliberating process by task related groups, and those decisions are then filtered through judgment centers before action is taken. It takes about 2 seconds to make a moral judgment, and about half a second to make a logical decision.

Internally, each of the cells of the brain has its own neural net which is electrochemical. Here, a current or magnetic field could interrupt that activity, but it is almost certain to not alter it in any well constructed way, it will either cause absolute chaos to the system, or more likely, just shut everything down.

Once things are shut down, do they return to normal? Also, if you disable a particular section of the brain, how specific can you be?

I suspect that armies might permanently impair the moral judgment of soldiers, something that can already be done chemically, as the Nazis discovered.

Also, I can see it being used as a truth machine, shutting down areas related to moral judgment or the ability to hold a secret. One easy way to stop people from lying is to disable their imagination. I suppose this could be used to "cure" "insanity" which means welcome to planet zombie.

After all, surely, you can do it temporarily and worry about whether or not you've done permanent damage, but its probably real easy to do permanent damage intentionally.

ETA: the CIA is obsolete. Anyone with a computer can now collect better intelligence data. I suspect the major goon squads now are international, hired through JSOC and the like, and I'm sure the CIA has them, as does defense, state, and the president. Sure, they can kill, but it doesn't make their target selection any better.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 10:50 AM

This is so turning into a thread where we discuss transplanting our brains into tiger-robots.

You said the electrical current was applied just above the ears?

The only thing I can think that they might have done, that's remotely consistent with the results they reported is that the electrical current effected the cingulate gyrus. But you can't knock out the entire thing, because it regulates respiratory function as well as emotional response and decision making.

What part did they target, how did they direct the current to the right spot, how did they control the electrical current, because the whole brain is conductive, how did they not disrupt anything else?

Running an electrical current through a general area that's slightly different on everyone seems a little too random to have such a consistent result. Which is why I'm wondering if they really did.

It could be their understanding of the human brain has progressed beyond my expectations. I'm not sure which is worse. But I doubt it.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 10:52 AM

More simply, pretty much what DT just said. They're excited little human remote control wanna-bes making a bunch of unsubstantiated claims. The other possibility is it's parlor trick and a smokescreen, but either way I don't really think they did what they're claiming.

Don't get me wrong, I think they will be able to do this eventually, which is why I brought it up. The tech they'll use to do it we have to watch out for. Because this isn't something they're going to shout to the sky and announce, this is undoubtedly something secret and confidential they'd be working on. Like the Manhattan project. And when they introduce it to the public, it'll be through a innocuous seeming product, something that won't arouse suspicions and that the public will demand.

Just don't let them put any wires or fiber optic cables (probably the bigger threat than regular old electricity) in your head for the internet. I can guarantee it'll be a trap.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 12:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
More simply, pretty much what DT just said. They're excited little human remote control wanna-bes making a bunch of unsubstantiated claims. The other possibility is it's parlor trick and a smokescreen, but either way I don't really think they did what they're claiming.

It's both, actually, a little from column A, a little from column B, side order of shysterism.

And they're not gonna go for anything as crass as wires or a helmet, of COURSE not, they want a pacification beam, and if it fries the brains of the peons over time what do they care, long as the peons can still slave away to enrich them ?

Downright amusing in a twisted fashion that someday tinfoil hats might actual be a realistic defense - I was discussing EM field effects on behavior with someone else but they ain't got back to me, since they'd mentioned positive effects from using faraday cage shielding.

Hmm, faraday hats, easy enough, we already make wallets and shopping bags of that style.

And while most of VI doesn't *actually* think I can read minds or manipulate behavior, there's always just that tiny edge of where they ain't 100% sure either way, which I have always played for all it's worth - and my Niece and her friends are utterly, utterly convinced I can do exactly that despite repeated denials, plus at least two ex's who went round warning folk about my "jedi mind tricks" after they broke up with me, the latter of them a neopagan who said it looked visually like a vice clamped around them, when I got to "convincing" someone of something.

My opinion is that it's one of them places science ain't caught up yet, but somewhere in that combination of psychological exploitation, blind spot manipulation, social dynamics, force of personality, there *IS* some kind of X-factor which comes into play, but nailing down evidence - well that's treading dark waters I'd prefer the alphabet goons not be swimming in, thanks.

Speakin of.. DT ?

There's a reason for that - I mentioned some of why in the Lyme disease thread, ok, I *did* have some actual training in the fine art of black baggin, but that was already on the decline even in the 80's cause the folks at the sharp end were sick and tired of risking life and limb to obtain good, solid HUMINT only to have it rejected out of hand cause it was politically convenient or expedient to believe something else, and throwing Valerie(Plame) to the wolves pounded the final stake in on the profession as a whole on the Federal level - locally they're still used, but only against our own citizens and those are just amateurs who're either rats who like the taste of cheese (someone they busted who turned, like Adrian Lamo) or crackpots with mental problems (like their plant in the Hutaree), and as such not exactly any kind of threat to anyone but the so called protectees, them bein us.

These days the entire course of Federal level "intelligence" is to just make that shit up, whatever is politically expedient/convenient, and then "find"(niger yellowcake) or even manufacture(bin laden tapes) whatever "evidence" you can foist off on the public with the help of a compliant media.

Do you really think folks would risk their neck for these assholes like that ever again after Valerie?

-Frem

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Friday, June 18, 2010 12:36 PM

A beam or a field is another I've been concerned about, and the original reason for my "tin foil hat" comment (something that theoretically a crazy person might use to disrupt an outside beam or signal to keep out the mind control).

The only thing is, unless they can figure out how to target specific areas of the brain by frequency, it won't ever be able to become actual MIND control, where they can make people do what they want them to, even if the subjects are unwilling at first. Mind control would MAKE them willing.

Right now, they've found a bunch of "fun" stuff with their investigation into sonics and microwaves that they're playing with, and eventually they'll create a knock out or sleep beam, sonic and electromagnetism are the most likely sources for that. Particularly if they ever find a way to induce alpha and delta electomagnetic brainwaves in people.

But I still think actual control over feelings and behaviour is what they want for an end goal. Conditioning was the first attempt they made at chemical and physical changes, like you told me with MKultra and Phoenix. But they've always been trying to create mind control. One of the goals early on was to be able to make American Manchurian Candidates and sleeper agents from captured enemy soldiers. Don't think they ever quite pulled that off.

But they'll keep trying for it, because it's not like them to think being able to just stop someone is good enough. They want it so people will always do what they're "supposed" to be doing. And same as with this experiment, random application of electrical current (or beam) isn't going to give them minute enough control.

Least, that's what I think.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 1:43 PM

Yeah, Byte - and the only reason *I* brought up that study was to let you know that it's not all tin-hat territory.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

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Friday, June 18, 2010 2:06 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

" it won't ever be able to become actual MIND control, where they can make people do what they want them to, even if the subjects are unwilling at first. Mind control would MAKE them willing. "

Hello,

I don't doubt that they might figure out something that can make you suggestable. The beam or field doesn't need to carry instructions. It can just put you in a suggestable state. A talking man can do the rest.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 2:14 PM

I'm still kinda disturbed by the idea that someone who works as a scientist just basically admitted that there's an awful lot of hucksterism and sleight-of-hand involved in all these scientific studies!

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Friday, June 18, 2010 2:24 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Heh. I think that anything tied to money or politics has the potential for hucksterism. And that means almost everything.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews, Wulfenstar. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, June 18, 2010 3:15 PM

Aha. That would work, Anthony. Especially if you could convince someone that what they're doing is all a dream...

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Friday, June 18, 2010 3:17 PM