Now, now, now..... be nice everyone. by Wulfenstar

Unfortunately ironic last line, I think, unless that was a serious attempt at a joke.

It's anti-bullying in the sense of trying to prevent harrassment of gay or gender-different students. Who certainly are harrassed, sometimes in conjunction with the administration.

I'll agree that they shouldn't have to legislate this, and it's very sad if things are this intolerable. Schools seem to be so concerned about security that they've forgotten how to keep kids safe. School is the main social environment in kids lives, five days a week; more effective measure would be to teach and encourage respect and equality within that social environment. This is where Frem's Sudbury model makes its showing.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:38 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Serious attempt at a joke. Sometimes they fall flat.

But this is "law" is exactly what Im talking about when I rage at ANYONE trying to legislate "morality".

When are we going to wake up and realize that governments can't legislate human nature and or behavior?

I don't need/want/tolerate government assclowns telling me how to live.

It is Nanny State b.s....... and as an American, it is antithetical to all that I am.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:32 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Wulf, OF COURSE they can legislate morality! What do you suppose "laws" are? They are the concrete, collective, sometimes secular, and usually written expression of right and wrong. So I don't understand what you mean when you say they "can't", although you say it frequently and with much conviction.

Do you mean they SHOULDN'T legislate morality? Or do you mean that if they legislate a morality that is foreign to the citizens, it is DOOMED TO FAIL? Or do you mean something else?

The first one, possibly you have an argument. The second... well, there are many examples of government successfully changing the way people think over the long run, because - yes- people ARE susceptible to groupthink, whether the source is the church, the gubmint, corporations, or the collective.

Anyway, if you could clarify what you mean I'd appreciate it.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:34 AM

Sig,
Thanks for saying that. I agree with you and was wanting more clarification too.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:43 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I grew up in a different time, a time when bullying was a daily fact of life, and homos (as they were called then) were beaten up for sport. That's why I have no problem with laws designed to protect people. That's what governments are for, to protect people. Cyber-bullying is the new rage, and it has led to much misery and even death for the victims. I support these laws, and I support aggressive prosecutions of those that would be so cruel to others.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:48 AM

Yeah, it is interesting how there was a mentality that bullying was normal and you just needed to "buck up", and how there is a shift toward recognizing it as a wrong and wanting to find ways of dealing with it. It is sad that we even have to make laws about such things. Wulf, do you have other suggestions besides using the law to deal with bullying?

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, Wulf... are you saying there shouldn't be laws against rape?

The funny thing is... if I understand it correctly, Wulf himself was both a victim and a perp of bullying, altho it was more focused than just "bullying" (both racial and gang-related). You would think he'd be all for anything that would reduce its incidence.

And bullying occurs in many places, not just school. We have an infamous "bully" manager in our workplace, too.

IMHO, bullying should be treated as you would treat any other crime: In CA, threatening someone is "assault", and touching them in a threatening manner is "battery". The problem comes in when you have an organization (school, workplace, church etc.) policing itself.

Rip it open and let the sun shine in, I say.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:02 AM

So the more I think about this, the more I can see Wulf's idea here. I think the question is, how do we deal with bullying? It is true that some people will pick on and torment others who don't belong. It is also true that it is not morally correct behavior. I'm wondering if establishing a law against bullying will make a difference. I suppose the hope is that with a law, school administrators will become more aware of bullying, see it as a problem, and try to take steps within their school to protect victims and monitor bullies. This only gets at part of the problem though. Other aspects would be dealing with the victim's mental health (training/teaching them ways to be assertive and perhaps be less of a victim -- that is, sometimes victims could make themselves less of a target; is the victim depressed or being abused at home, therefore making him less likely to stand up for himself in other situations or think he deserves to be bullied), dealing with the bullies mental health (are they being abused? do they have problems with anger/impulsivity? Are their social problems at home that need to be addressed? Are they struggling academically and are just taking out their frustration on others?) and getting parents more involved (some parents see school as the babysitter and don't seem to want to take responsibility for their children's behavior, though, so this could be difficult).

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:22 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Its ridiculous.

Its easily abused.

If people just defended themselves, then this wouldnt be a problem.

Are you really telling me that if... in the heat of anger someone said "Im gonna f*** you up!"..

that in California its considered assault?

Really?

No wonder we are becoming a nation of whiney victims.

Man up.

Don't get me wrong, bullying is awful. But its part of growing up AND... it just feels great to knock a bully down.

:)

Shouldn't deny kids that wonderful life lesson.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Once again, that orverriding anger is used to condemn something or someone that YOU have an issue with, but don't necessarily know anything about.

I agree with a lot that has been said, and definitely that laws are MEANT to dictate morality. It's absurd to think otherwise. There still exist some of the most inane laws in the world about morality in many states regarding sex, for example, and far more.

I was bullied in high school--worst time of my life. It was because I was tall and thin, shy, had double braces and thick glasses. Kids in high school in particular can be vicious little beasts--there at that mid-point between rebelling against authority and learning how to get along with others. Nothing will stop it. But the kind of bullying that causes real harm, physical or mental, is inexcusable. Nonetheless, I think the onus SHOULD be on the school, and on the parents, and that in this case laws are pretty useless.

I agree with the attempt, however, and wish things were otherwise. We HAVE come a ways in tolerance, but we've got a long way to go.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

To Kwicko:" You're the putrid slime which oozes between troll's toes, you're so low.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Its ridiculous.

Its easily abused.

If people just defended themselves, then this wouldnt be a problem.

B]

This is a big "if". I think sometimes people physically can't or won't defend themselves, or they are so outnumbered, it doesn't matter if they try to defend themselves. Sometimes, the reason people are victims is because they get into situations where they can't defend themselves -- even if they have done everything right (were aware of their surroundings, avoided the dark alley, didn't get drunk, etc). What (legal) options are there to protect them or bring their abuser to justice so that at least others might be protected in the future?

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:40 AM

On paper Wulf, it is federally assault when you threaten someone. However, for the most part, people are not going to go to the police when they broke your mailbox or insulted you or something and you said "I'm gonna kick your ass" For the most part assualt isn't filed until it's coincided with battery. But it is allowed to be filed alone. Its what threatening behaviour falls under. This is so you can go to the police when someone who you don't get along with (god forbid) verbally threatens you and you think they really mean it. Otherwise we'd have to wait until they killed you to react.

Bullying laws came into place while I was still in High School. Zero Tolerance policies and the what not. If you ask me it is just one more step for the school system to be able to wash its hands of social responsibility for the community they preside over. As someone said it is a community. A good sized high school has more people interacting closely and connected on a first name basis than most towns and cities. So, to have response based "throw the baby out with the bath water" type policies is just destructive and lazy when school could really be a time to help shape people into citizens, get those who can't cope, either able to cope or into a different situation, and perhaps even put a boot in an ass that needs it enough to straighten some kids out. Instead it's easier to suspend both the student who was being beaten up with the student who did the beating because "zero tolerance" is a nice way of saying "zero involvement" and "zero commitment"

"...we need a hood ornament..."

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by reenact12321:

If you ask me it is just one more step for the school system to be able to wash its hands of social responsibility for the community they preside over.

Yeah, the reverse can be true, too. Sometimes, the community (parents) expect the school to have all the responsibility in raising children.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:54 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

A very simple lesson, for those that need it told.

Its a harsh one, but its the truth and in a lot of ways, its a good thing.

You. Are. On. Your. Own.

Your parents can teach you to defend yourself, to fight and to stand up.

Or. They expect the school to shelter you just as they do.

The cops can clean up the mess.

Or. You can rely on them to the point that when they don't come, arn't there, are miles away... you are screwed.

You can have laws that set men free.

Or. Laws that dictate every aspect of your life and box you into being a robot/slave.

Its really a simple choice:

You live your life, or have someone else tell you how to live.

You take the chance at being free, or live under the yoke of those in "authority".

At least, thats how I see it. Snark away, but I don't think Im that far off.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 7:54 AM

Quote:
I suppose the hope is that with a law, school administrators will become more aware of bullying, see it as a problem, and try to take steps within their school to protect victims and monitor bullies.

I think maybe this is the hope, but not how the law will work in practice, and also possibly not the real intention of the people making the law in the first place...

Administrators are often aware of bullying problems, and often encourage it. When this happens, it's often itself a sign of a broken community among the ADULTS in the school district, that's perpetuating long standing feuds. The kids get caught in the middle, and learn certain mindsets and dislikes from their parents or relatives, and it keeps going.

This law is probably also a vector for a legislation about cyber-bullying, which, while a real problem, will most likely be "addressed" by constant monitoring and a general violation of respecting students rights to privacy, even possibly in their own home.

We've already seen some of this happening already.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:02 AM

DREAMTROVE

When you've created a monster like the public school, you have to do the minimum to ensure that you're not causing even more damage. Seems to me the NYS public schools can limit the behavior inside the NYS public schools, since after all, they are a business, I think they're in the business of detaining children...

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:03 AM

Oh yes, its a big game of "who can I pin this on?"

Part of it is the lifestyle of the American adult has shifted so radically over the later half of the 20th century.

For one, the desparity between the highest paid workers (CEO ranks) and lowest paid(the proverbial mail room) has never been a greater rift. This has more married couples with both partners working and having less time for Pa/Ma-ternal activities.

The other large change is the extended adolescence that many adults try hard not to shed. Pre-WWII times, (not rose colored glasses about the past just stating a paradigm shift) boys became men because after high school, you were BOOM done, you are now part of the work force, you found a job and you moved out of your parents home ASAP, 1930's depression lead to unique arrangements, but the expectation was still there. For women on the other hand, by 1940 you began to see SOME independant woman in terms of financial support. But the large majority remained with their parents until marriage. My grandfather was once rebuked by my grandmother's parents for coming home after midnight. After they were married!

Now, jump forward, males and females are on a more symmetrical track, high school, usually some form of higher education, independence, bachelor(ette) hood, continued reliance on parents as a "home base" and for financial backing for often reckless financial behavior (debt is as American as Apple pie) because the safety net of mom and dad is there. This extended adolescence is reflected in parenthood, not to speak out of turn, but I've seen it more from women than from men. They wanted a kid, but they want to have a life as well, to still be young and pretty and to still turn heads or attend lots of lunch dates with friends. Having cake and eating it too. And since the child spends so much of their waking hours at school, and since legal precedent says they are responsible, why not push that to full advantage and lean on them to take more legal responsiblity (which is different than the social responsibility I mentioned before) so I can go do ______ thing I never have time for.

I'd point to the Irish education system as a beacon. A pact is signed by the parents, the teacher and the administrator. The gist of the pact is, no matter what comes up in life, no matter what "I" may want, it is recognized that this child represents my most important life's work and I am committed in my time, my effort and my willingness to put aside other things to make sure this child is as well educated, loved and supported as I can make him or her, so that he or she might be a happy, balanced, and hopefully successful person as well as a contributing member of society. Other activities such as music, sports, and Extra-curricular activities are all well and good, but they will never supersced the priority of education and parental, instruction, and administrative support.

(a particular lesson about the sports would be well taken to heart by Americans if you ask me, your kid isn't going to the NFL, so how about he takes something besides basket weaving at MSU eh?

"...we need a hood ornament..."

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:10 AM

Oh and Wulf, one thing that makes your idea of defending ones self (though I actually agree with you SOME what on that regard, in terms that if you can and you know how....) However, in the public school system today, if you are being taunted, harassed, even mildly physically harassed (stolen back pack, shoving, the infamous "shoulder slam" that always pissed me off) and you take it into the direct physical arena, you become the villain in the schools eyes. INSTANTLY, you are labeled as someone who can't take the heat and will lash out and you might as well have a scarlet letter on you. Terms like aggressive, anger management, brutality will be thrown at you by the district so they can CYA their way out of it. You will be painted up as a monster or an unstable individual. That's the trick the bullies have learned. They don't "pound you" for your lunch money anymore, they just get their rocks off making you miserable in ways that are subdued.

The faculty try to tell you to report this, which is where the merit in the concept of zero tolerance is. To avoid brushing off "as just a little bullying" behavior that is not openly destructive, to give some backing to kids who are harassed on that mental level, but instead it just ended up being a quick out for responsibility.

I say, either turn students loose to pop the skeevy little punk who took your lunchbox, or enforce zero tolerance the way it was supposed to be, to support reporting of erosive-bullying.

"...we need a hood ornament..."

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:11 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"I'd point to the Irish education system as a beacon. A pact is signed by the parents, the teacher and the administrator. The gist of the pact is, no matter what comes up in life, no matter what "I" may want, it is recognized that this child represents my most important life's work and I am committed in my time, my effort and my willingness to put aside other things to make sure this child is as well educated, loved and supported as I can make him or her, so that he or she might be a happy, balanced, and hopefully successful person as well as a contributing member of society. Other activities such as music, sports, and Extra-curricular activities are all well and good, but they will never supersced the priority of education and parental, instruction, and administrative support."

That is awesome. So much so I had to copy and paste it.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:17 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Oh and Wulf, one thing that makes your idea of defending ones self (though I actually agree with you SOME what on that regard, in terms that if you can and you know how....) However, in the public school system today, if you are being taunted, harassed, even mildly physically harassed (stolen back pack, shoving, the infamous "shoulder slam" that always pissed me off, and you take it into the direct physical arena, you become the villain in the schools eyes. INSTANTLY, you are labeled as someone who can't take the heat and will lash out and you might as well have a scarlet letter on you. Terms like aggressive, anger management, brutality will be thrown at you by the district so they can CYA their way out of it. You will be painted up as a monster or an unstable individual. That's the trick the bullies have learned. They don't "pound you" for your lunch money anymore, they just get their rocks of making you miserable in ways that are subdued."

Oh believe me, I know. I
But... well, i would rather be seen as "unstable" than as a target. And was too. It was great.

They can't mess with you if you keep a good GPA (3.9), and are able to always have proof of self-defense.

B/c after all, if they really want to push it... "My child was defending himself because the school did NOTHING" sounds GREAT in court.

And as a lawsuit.

They know it too.

You just have to play the system, like they do.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:21 AM

Quote:
Now, jump forward, males and females are on a more symmetrical track, high school, usually some form of higher education, independence, bachelor(ette) hood, continued reliance on parents as a "home base" and for financial backing for often reckless financial behavior (debt is as American as Apple pie) because the safety net of mom and dad is there. This extended adolescence is reflected in parenthood, not to speak out of turn, but I've seen it more from women than from men. They wanted a kid, but they want to have a life as well, to still be young and pretty and to still turn heads or attend lots of lunch dates with friends. Having cake and eating it too. And since the child spends so much of their waking hours at school, and since legal precedent says they are responsible, why not push that to full advantage and lean on them to take more legal responsiblity (which is different than the social responsibility I mentioned before) so I can go do ______ thing I never have time for.

Oh, it's both genders, and it's also a worldwide epidemic. See the hikkikomori of japan for more details.

I suspect that things for girls, particularly girls of the middle class, have not progressed as much as you think. For all the 'FEMINISM!' out there, most girls just want to get married have babies, even if they do nowadays have to get a job just because of economics. And the girls who have this old fashioned mindset stay with mom and dad until they find themselves a husband. (EDIT: Rereading, I think actually this is what you were saying, but I misunderstood it)

As an aside, I'm 25, am female, I have a job, but I live with my parents. This is not because I'm looking for a husband, and not because I had a kid, and not because I like to party, or because I ruined my credit rating with bad spending habits. I won't say more than that, the internet doesn't need to know what my long terms plans are or what I'm up to. I will say that I've already paid off my student loans. Since the economy is so unstable, it seemed wise.

I note that I'm lucky to HAVE a job, our current education system does a piss poor job preparing kids for a working career or helping them decide what they want to do, know how to function.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:25 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

.....Don't get me started on "Feminism"

Like all "isms", there are some good and LOTS of bad to it.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:32 AM

yeah. I guess I never had that bad of bullying problems as I was a big kid, plus the one kid who did give me a lot of crap in middle school was a little scrawny guy who thought he was hot stuff. I socked his head into a locker one time and knocked him off his feet, told the gym teacher he ran into me, and I think the gym teacher knew exactly what had happened, but I was a "good kid" and this guy was a little punk, I minded my manners, he mouthed off, sometimes having a teacher recognize the difference means a lot, instead of the "you lot!" approach of lumping us all together. Yeah, after that punk "hit his head on my locker" I never had any problems after that. I also noticed way more bullying and just nasty behavior in middle school than in high school. There were the really "out there" outcasts and they would catch some flak, but not nearly as bad as middle school, perhaps along with the disturbing "descent?" of sexual activity into middle schools, the maturity level has also descended so that middle schoolers are more like high schoolers 10-15 years ago? Just a thought. I mean we even had one of the goth kids, tall ungainly girl who was very... unique, an artistic type. She won prom queen my senior year. Perhaps my schools social open-mindeness was just a fluke, or... idk. Most of the bullying I received was in middle school and with me, it was because I was not as well adjusted as some, not the worst, but "a late bloomer" is the best term I think, just sort was unsure of myself. I didn't tend to get threatened or hit, just condescended to, and patronized in a very biting fashion. But by freshman year, that really vanished.

"...we need a hood ornament..."

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:33 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
.....Don't get me started on "Feminism"

Like all "isms", there are some good and LOTS of bad to it.

Like, say...

CONSERVATISM?

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:38 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Like, say...

CONSERVATISM?"

Actually,

YES.

I know this was your lame attempt at picking a fight..but. I chose to make it a time of learning instead (now pay attention). An example of where, while I choose not to follow "isms" (this one is bad, that one is not)... you had to make a snark (or an attempt at one).

Try to keep up, Kwick. The world is changing. The old Conservative vs Liberal back and forth is as burned out as most....

HIPPIES.

heh

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:42 AM

@byte. I'm not a pan-society person. So I cannot speak for all peoples from all walks of life. I'm looking to the ones who were 5 or so years older than I am (roughly your age) who came up in upper-middle class. I saw pushes for career advancement. Lots of our gals were involved in all sorts of honors and activities to make their college applications and resumes look good. I guess the idea of moving out being more expected today was an assumption on my part.

"...we need a hood ornament..."

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 10:27 AM

There's possible regional and class strata differences too.

I live in Utah, so of course there's SOME pressure for the marriage and babies thing, but it doesn't account for all of it, not among the kids I knew who weren't raised Mormon. There's an awful lot of stuff on TV, stories that get told with the girl getting married and having kids being the happily ever after version, and this is everywhere.

My friends in highschool were the outcasts, none of them are mormons, and more from the middle class and sometimes the lower class. Some of them I think might have even been living at poverty level based on what they were living in at home. But they pretty much all followed the get married have babies mindset.

It was the kids in the GT classes, who I knew from my Junior High days, they were the ones who usually had well to do families. And yeah, there were racking up extra curriculars and college credit like you describe.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 12:31 PM

MINCINGBEAST

Bullying is a nautral, inevitable part of life. Long after this idealistic, impotent law is forgotten, bullies will be doing their thing. I can't begrudge the nanny state for trying to protect natural victims from their own weakness, but I can giggle at such attempts.

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:55 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So the more I think about this, the more I can see Wulf's idea here. I think the question is, how do we deal with bullying? It is true that some people will pick on and torment others who don't belong. It is also true that it is not morally correct behavior. I'm wondering if establishing a law against bullying will make a difference. I suppose the hope is that with a law, school administrators will become more aware of bullying, see it as a problem, and try to take steps within their school to protect victims and monitor bullies.

What it means is that the school becomes LIABLE. And not only that, but outside entities have the authority to step in, instead of the school policing itself which they are often woefully poor at. In fact, you should never have an organization policing itself. Congress shouldn't, the churches shouldn't, and even the police shouldn't.

Many (but not all) victims have some sort of processing disorder... Asperger's Syndrome or some such. Others stick out because they're "queer"... something they were pretty much born with.

The biggest problem that I see with bullies is that the parents are often enablers... their children don't need to follow the rules of good behavior, oh no!

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 3:21 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Don't NY cops violate that law 100,000s times every day?

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Its ridiculous.

Its easily abused.

If people just defended themselves, then this wouldnt be a problem.

Are you really telling me that if... in the heat of anger someone said "Im gonna f*** you up!"..

that in California its considered assault?

Really?

No wonder we are becoming a nation of whiney victims.

Man up.

Don't get me wrong, bullying is awful. But its part of growing up AND... it just feels great to knock a bully down.

:)

Shouldn't deny kids that wonderful life lesson.

Haven't read the whole thing; only got this far, so far.

Wulf, I think you see the world in a simplistic way, and you tend to think that YOUR experiences are anologous to everyone else's.

There are kids who are "bullied" at home, by abusive fathers, some even by abusive fathers AND abusive older brothers. They tend to make easy targets for bullies at school, since they've basically been "trained" not to fight back, strike out, or resist, lest the beatings get more severe.

It would be NICE to think they could defend themselves. Sometimes they even do. You usually hear about them doing so when they take a gun to school after killing their families, and then proceed to use that gun to "bully" their bullies.

Is that what you had in mind when you said they should defend themselves? 'Cause not everyone CAN, at least not in the situation they're in now. Maybe later, when they're on their own, they can, but for now, they're easy pickin's.

"I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

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Thursday, June 24, 2010 5:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
A very simple lesson, for those that need it told.

Its a harsh one, but its the truth and in a lot of ways, its a good thing.

You. Are. On. Your. Own.

Your parents can teach you to defend yourself, to fight and to stand up.

Or. They expect the school to shelter you just as they do.

The cops can clean up the mess.

And the cops are often needed to clean up the mess, once the parents don't teach you anything except how you're supposed to act to make the beating stop, even if only for a little while, and the school doesn't do anything either, except tell you to "take it outside". I've seen it; I've known these kids.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 6:40 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

How to Deal with a Bully: 101

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Friday, June 25, 2010 6:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

"I think you see the world in a simplistic way, and you tend to think that YOUR experiences are anologous to everyone else's." You THINK?! Omigash, where have you been all this time! Why else put up fictional "heroes" all the time? Simple black-and-white thinking, sadly...

Took me a long time to grok it, but you've been here so long...what's your excuse?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Friday, June 25, 2010 6:58 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Some things ARE simplistic. How to deal with bullies is a good example.

YOU overthink the things that are simple, and simplify the things that need to be thought out.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 7:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Wulf, that is YOUR way to "fix things". But that's not the only way and often not the best way.

I'm sorry that you had such a terrible childhood, but that doesn't mean it should be repeated ad infinitum.

As for you... I think you should learn to think outside of your own experiences. It's natural, most people apply their personal experiences to the world. But that means you're stuck with whatever you were handed when you were little, and it's no way to learn and change... or change the world from what you already know. (Assuming of course that you want to do either.)

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Friday, June 25, 2010 7:18 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So, Sig, your answer to the bully situation is to... what?

Tell? Go to a teacher? Get a lawyer? Have someone better "trained" to deal with it?

.... oooh, and not to snark but, this a good one...

Turn the other cheek?

No. PERSONAL histories aside. It has been proven over and over again since the dawn of walking on 2 legs... the best way to handle a threat is NOT to cower, NOT to ask for someone else to take care of it for you... but rather to face it head on. Yourself.

You might not always win, and thats actually ok. Whats important is that you stood up, faced the threat, and did your best.

Life lesson in there somewhere.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 7:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
So the more I think about this, the more I can see Wulf's idea here. I think the question is, how do we deal with bullying? It is true that some people will pick on and torment others who don't belong. It is also true that it is not morally correct behavior. I'm wondering if establishing a law against bullying will make a difference. I suppose the hope is that with a law, school administrators will become more aware of bullying, see it as a problem, and try to take steps within their school to protect victims and monitor bullies.
What it means is that the school becomes LIABLE. And not only that, but outside entities have the authority to step in, instead of the school policing itself which they are often woefully poor at. In fact, you should never have an organization policing itself. Congress shouldn't, the churches shouldn't, and even the police shouldn't.

Hey Sig,
Just so we're clear: I'm definitely on the side that school bullying is a huge problem. I'm wondering if you can you flesh out how putting liability on the school is actually going to help the problem? I'm thinking that the school being liable just means that the parents can sue the school, but that, in and of itself doesn't solve the bullying -- it just leads to lawsuits. In fact, it may be counterproductive, because the parents have one more thing to blame the school for, rather than taking the responsibility on themselves (which I think we all know needs to happen, too, right?). Having an external agency provide increased policing may stop the overt acts of bullying, but bullies will find other ways to torment, and the police can't be everywhere. Still, it is possible that there would be less overt bullying and that might still be a good thing. I wonder if there is a parallel with the so called "surge" in Iraq, though. That is, with more troops present and monitoring, there were less car bombings or something (eta: I didn't finish my thought -- once we tried to remove troops, it was still evident that nothing was actually solved... I'm speaking from ignorance here, so the parallel isn't necessarily valid)

Quote:

Many (but not all) victims have some sort of processing disorder... Asperger's Syndrome or some such. Others stick out because they're "queer"... something they were pretty much born with. !

I'm well aware of autism spectrum disorders and can certainly see how these folks are easily victimized. See my post about character traits of victims and dealing with their mental health needs. I mentioned depression as an example, but asds would certainly count.

Quote:
The biggest problem that I see with bullies is that the parents are often enablers... their children don't need to follow the rules of good behavior, oh no!

Yes, I totally agree. Which is why I wonder if school's becoming increasingly liable (they already are to some degree, aren't they?) might be counterproductive. Perhaps the parents need to become increasingly liable, too (?). Hmmm, I'm not sure I like that idea, though, because some parents really are doing all they can to raise good kids, but the kids still manage to get into significant trouble...

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Friday, June 25, 2010 7:34 AM

Y'know, Wulfie, you laugh at the idea of "turning the other cheek". Maybe you've never tried it. I have. I've been bullied, too. Had one bully challenge me to a fight, and he then told everyone where and when. I told him I was nonviolent, and wouldn't fight him. He said he'd hit me 'til I fell, or 'til I cried, and I told him I'd do neither. He tried; I stood. I'd been down this road a time or nine before. It didn't take long before the crowd was on my side, and he was an outcast at school after that. He apologized a few years later for being such an asshole, and told me that I'd taught him a lesson.

So yeah, sometimes turning the other cheek IS the path to victory.

Is it ALWAYS the answer? Nope. Pretty much nothing is *ALWAYS* the perfect solution.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 7:37 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Must of been a nice place to live Kwick.

As for me?

Turning the other cheek = blood in the water.

Different places.

ETA: btw... in that first vid... I know that kids hand HAD to hurt. It looks like he caught him on the temple... one of the funny things about fighting that they gloss over in movies and such is... you hit someones bone... that hurts your hand, alot.

Also, I love the last vid where the chick body slams the mugger. I spit out my coffee when I saw that. :)

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:10 AM

Wulf: "They say you should never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

Hmm. There was one time I walked away from a fight. It was because I knew I'd already won, even before it started. I think my smirk when I realized that unnerved the guy, he never bothered me again.

All bullies are cowards at heart. Sounds to me like maybe Kwicko's self confidence won the fight as much as anything else.

Those who don't win, can't, says a lot about what they've gone through. That's why people need to stick up for each other. ...My feeling is really there SHOULDN'T need to be a law about this. It's basic decency to intervene in bullying, even if you're half the guy's size. You talk him down, or whatever you have to do, but you give the bully something to think about, show him what he's doing isn't right if he doesn't know it already.

I guess I have trouble imagining the law being nearly so effective at stopping bullying as people caring about each other. It's a punishment and litigation system, the other way is interventative, and immediate, and preventative.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:23 AM

Mike,
That is a cool experience of how turning the other cheek can work (though I think it takes a strong willed person to pull this off). I think you, like Byte, are getting at something here, which is that you are only as bullied as you let people bully you (meaning, you didn't allow the bully to make you afraid; he assaulted you, but he didn't make you a victim). I'm also agreeing with the whole, "how to do we get kids to stick up for eachother without forming counterproductive gangs?" direction this thread is taking. Your standing up caused other people to see it was wrong and made the bully lose the power and affirmation he was receiving.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:23 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Thats my problem with these kind of laws.

They do nothing, and at worst, make things even more horrible.

My point here is that you cannot legislate good behavior. Even if you do make people follow this, all you end up with is people so afraid (of government reprisal) that they drop into a ball and cower whenever faced with adversity/bullies/authority.

Thats NO way to live.

I would break 1000 "laws" in the protection of myself and others (and have).

Does that make me a bad guy? In the eyes of the law, and those who believe in regulating human behavior to the point of slavery, it does.

Yeah, its crazy.

So I say, BE crazy.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:37 AM

JONGSSTRAW

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who has run out of ideas." H.G. Wells

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:38 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"The last man to raise his fist, is the one who loses" - Wulf

Or do I need to remind folks here about the Jews in Germany circa 1935?

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:43 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Actually, Wulf, one successful anti-bullying strategy (for little kids anyway) is shunning. And once the kids understand how it works, boy-howdy, does it work!

The problem is, there are the bullies, the victims, and the vast majority of kids who see what's going on and don't like it but are too afraid to fight the bullies. So what the teacher does is say... I know there are kids who're being bullied. I know nobody will ever tell me about it. I know that most of you don't like what's going on, so here's the thing. Don't talk to the bullies. Don't play with them. Don't sit with them at lunch. Don't go over to their house after school. What're the bullies gonna say? What're they gonna do? It's not like they can insist that each and every kid play with them. And unlike throwing punch (or pushing and shoving) there is no "reaction" for them.

See? A little cooperation goes a long way.

So now you have TWO MORE ideas to choose from. Betcha tho it's pearls b4 swine.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:43 AM

JONGSSTRAW

No offense Wulf, but I'll go with HG on this. Besides, the "rules" we played with in the past don't apply now. Now they pull out a gun and blow you away. See how tough you are then.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:44 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Shoot back.

And dont talk like the 80s and 90s are that far in the past... makes me feel old.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:48 AM