Now, now, now..... be nice everyone. by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Now, now, now..... be nice everyone.

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Sunday, June 27, 2010 18:20
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4372
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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

You can't sue a school because the kids won't play with someone. Idiot.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 8:50 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Yes, but the parents can sue the school for keeping on a teacher who tells their students to "shun" someone.

ETA: Especially their little precious snowflake.

Bitch.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 9:01 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Shoot back.

And dont talk like the 80s and 90s are that far in the past... makes me feel old.

60's and 70's for me. I was attacked in the school hallway by a "fraternity" member (gang actually) when I was 14, and he ended his flailing on me by running my head straight into the wall. I went down like a crumpled lump o'shit. He was 2 years older than me, and I felt like there was nothing much I could do. Back then you never "ratted", no matter what. So a few days later I went up to him and asked him ( in front of his friends) why he did it. What did he get out of beating on a younger kid? He had no answer, but he smiled and said I had guts. He reached out to shake my hand and I accepted his gesture of good faith. I never had any problems with those guys again.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 9:05 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Jong...

Guy or a girl?

Forget the PC crap, cus it makes a difference.

If some "frat" boy beat on some young chick where I was from.... well, me and my pack would have had lots and lots of "words" with him.

Then again, that was MY crew.... and the alpha male makes a difference in pack behavior I guess. lol

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Friday, June 25, 2010 9:18 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I'm a guy.

I was in 8th grade and the fraternity bully was in 10th grade. At that age, 2 years makes a big difference in size and strength. When he attacked me I was actually with two friends. The bully was with another fraternity member, and they asked us for money. Then he gave me the finger to the chest thing, which I instinctively brushed aside. That set him off to start on me. My "friends" did nothing. They actually scolded me after for resisting. I was no hero and no brave guy. I was just a normal scared kid who took a beating, and I never hung out with my friends again. After that I just tried to get along with everyone at school, and that worked out very well for me.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 9:24 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Sorry. Must have been rough.

But I can see that you still remember it. Now, if you had cold-clocked the guy... even allowing for the beating you might have taken... would you have remembered it differently?

Yeah, he apologizd later, and I think he would have anyways.. But you would have stood up and given as good as you got.

Yeah, Im barborous (sp?) but I still think the basic ways of being are much more fulfilling, much more satisfying (?)

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Friday, June 25, 2010 9:31 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Funny, I haven't thought about that incident from 43 years ago too many times all these years. These threads can be therapeutic as well as entertaining. Thanks.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 9:33 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"These threads can be therapeutic as well as entertaining."

I completely agree. lol

Saves on a psychiatrists bill sometimes I think.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 12:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA

All of this fails to take into account how in some neighborhoods it's a generational issue and goes far beyond the school itself.

Seriously, folks, you think that shit STOPS at graduation, you think the punk who shoved you around isn't gonna take advantage now that he's part of the homeowners association or city council, and isn't gonna continue to fuck with you and your kids, this time from an even more elevated position cause of how our society REWARDS THAT BEHAVIOR ?

Look at the Blake Robbins case, that wasn't about the laptops, or the use of tech for spying, so much as an issue of the neighborhood hoity-toity types looking down on that whole family for being at a "lower" income level and (perceived) "lower" social standing, and wanting any excuse to harrass them and run them outta town on a rail - that kinda shit isn't JUST confined to school, it pervades all of a community.

And Siggy has a point, again our society REWARDS THAT BEHAVIOR, glorifies and honors it, while considering altruism all but sinful - that alone is enough, when all the lip-service in the world is in direct opposition to what we *DO*, kids can see that as well, or even better, than we do cause they have not yet trained themselves to not see it, or rationalise it.

And yes, there *IS* a certain responsibility on behalf of the school, as I pointed out in the editorial Death at 3pm - the school demands a child be at a certain place and time, and *unarmed*, they have a certain responsibility to see to the personal safety of that child, which they dodge, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the usual complicity involved, like blaming the victim so they only have to deal with one set of irate parents, or looking the other way on purpose due to the financial or political connections of the aggressors parents.

So yeah, some attempt to hold those in part responsible to a standard of accountability for their part in it has merit - but I see it as doomed to failure cause it's a bandaid on a bullet wound, and trying to patch up a model as horribly broken as our current public education system is about as useful as duct-taping a broken brick, honestly.

The inhumanity of it, the prison-yard pecking order, the atmosphere of "control" leading to fear and violence, the forced-medication in lieu of actual diagnosis, there's just SO MUCH wrong with it, layin blame is never gonna help that much.

That's why I've been pushing the Sudbury model, which has worked beyond even our wildest expectations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school

Some schools has flirted with this, in their Vo-Tech programs, which is, IMHO, one of the most useful, and generally most educationally effective, portion of their curriculum, but sadly is often the first to go when the budget cuts come, but I bet any of you that got a chance to do the Vo-Tech thing enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than the rest of your education, didn't you ?

Anyhows, this solution, while in principle has merit, is treating a symptom instead of the cause, and therefore in the end no more effective than using Nyquil on tuberculosis.

And no, I have no advice to offer worth a damn cause my own policy towards that kind of thing was extreme, overwhelming violence without warning the instant someone made physical contact, and then inflicting as much harm as possible short of permanent crippling or death, and THAT only cause I didn't want the legal hassle involved - since (and this is also a huge part of it) our demonization of even the concept of self-defense meant I was gonna take enough shit for not just meekly knuckling under anyways.

Given a choice I would have killed them, because I knew even at the time because of how society rewards that behavior, these scum wind up our business execs, politicians, relgious leaders - and their jackbooted horde, and at the time it hadn't occured to me that they were as much victims of the way we do things as anyone else, so yeah, had I thought for a moment I coulda justified it, they'd have been dead, and with no more moral qualms than stomping a cockroach.

-Frem

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Friday, June 25, 2010 1:05 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Frem hates to admit it, but he and I have alot in common.

As to killing them for the impetinance of daring to touch me? Sometimes.

But then I realized that I had a hell of a lot more experience than they, that I could beat them and it sort of became a non-issue.

I mean, beating them was cathartic and all. But the rage to finish it? Naw. It was enough that I had won.

Beating a bully, and then having them crawl away with lesson learned was enough.

ETA: he does bring up a good point tho. If you dont stop a bully when they are young, SHOW them in no uncertain terms that what they are doing is wrong and PAINFUL then they will continue to do it. I DON'T mean in the prissy sense of getting "officials" involved either.

I mean it in terms of blood and bone.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 1:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Wulfie, again - violence harms the one inflicting it just as it does the one recieving, a lesson I deeply, bitterly, wish I had learned a hell of a lot sooner than I did.

No matter how much tougher the hammer is than the nail, eventually the hammer gets battered to junk too.

And no, involving authories is *more* effective cause it brings the lesson (often a bit false and hypocritical, admittedly) that such behavior does NOT have the sanction of the authorities, which is a slightly better solution than feeding the cycle of revenge and violence - an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind eventually.

Besides, finding other ways to deal with that shit is kind of important, cause like me, some day your ass is gonna get too OLD to be chuckin people into walls, and then what ?

Or too shaky, slow and blind to hit a goddamn thing with a pistol any more, for that matter, my eyesight and reflexes have deteriorated to where my CCW is more a matter of reputation and implied threat than any kinda realistic one.

The best weapon you're ever gonna have is right between your ears, and I wish for hells sake you'd learn to fuckin use it sometimes.

-Frem

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Friday, June 25, 2010 4:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Yes, but the parents can sue the school for keeping on a teacher who tells their students to "shun" someone.

ETA: Especially their little precious snowflake.

Bitch.

Oh yeah, because bare-knuckled fights on the playground are SO much better!

Double idiot.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 4:57 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Yes, but the parents can sue the school for keeping on a teacher who tells their students to "shun" someone.

ETA: Especially their little precious snowflake.

Bitch.
Oh yeah, because bare-knuckled fights on the playground are SO much better!

Double idiot.

Bare-knuckle fights? Psh, Wulf wouldn't have it that way. Both kids need to be armed to the teeth for this fight. At the very least switchblades. But more likely a gun duel. 10 paces at high noon on the playground. Now that's a recess.

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Friday, June 25, 2010 9:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh yeah, because bare-knuckled fights on the playground are SO much better!

Double idiot.

Indeed, hadn't mentioned it cause I didn't figure anyone would much care, but I been followin up and layin pressure over a local incident cause it seems the school districts around here didn't learn their lesson even after what happened to Tempest Smith.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/11-year-old-saline-boy-hospitalized-follo
wing-assault-by-group-of-students/
Seriously, you can practically taste the cover-up CYA bullshit dripping off every line of that, Khrishna on a crotch rocket, everyone and their brother can tell that was an intentional beat-down and boot-in, and every damn body knows who did it, too.

Some of the comment section is a bit chilling too, the same old fucking story, every time, THIS bit stands out (and I have verified this myself).

Quote:
I am quite surprised and disappointed that I had to read of this incident in the newspaper. I have a child in attendance at Heritage and all I new of the incident shortly after it ocurred was in an email that I received from the Heritage principal stating that there was an incident on the playground and that after the incident, many of the other students were spreading rumors about it and we should not believe what our children were telling us. I asked my child and he told me that he knew that somebody was hurt at recess and that he knew the name of the injured student, but he didn't know the details. It makes me very unhappy and concerned for the welfare of all of the students that the parents were not informed by the school right away -- that those "in charge" do not have enough trust in the parents to tell us the truth immediately and let us step in and step up to help.

Riight, cause all children are lying manipulators, right ?
(Fuck you, Lichfield, fuck you straight to hell.)

And the some of the other comments, victim-blaming, racism, throwing on the kid cause they were unable to stand up to six to one odds (WTF, they think he's Bruce fuckin Lee ?) and so on and so forth, again, the same old story.

And for another who thinks a "playground altercation" cannot turn lethal, I assure you it absolutely can.
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/06/22/loc_loc1assault.html
Hell, for that matter if I hadn't made a point NOT to do so, the first time I ever spilled blood in anger, there would have been three corpses in that courtyard instead of three damn fools needing stitches.

So yeah, the local school districts are gonna learn a lesson about responsibility if I gotta pound it down their throats with a jackhammer, since I was already pissed over yet another case where they of course claim no responsibility.
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/national_world&id=74063
50

We have a fucking *responsibility* to these kids, and we for damn sure need to stand to it, not shrug it off and throw the blame on them, leave them swing - but we do, and it comes back to haunt us when they reject our entire revolting society and all but declare war on it.

So when those young teens look at you with such seething hatred you can practically feel the burn, it's not just "evil-cause-they're-evil", they DO have their reasons...

And way too goddamn many of em are entirely justified.

-Frem

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Saturday, June 26, 2010 6:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I definitely don't agree with holding the school responsible They have it tough enough as it is.

I do agree with holding the parents responsible, as the child is almost always reflecting the attitude of the parents. It wouldn't solve everything, but it might improve things. And I think schools are blamed too much as it is; it should be the parents' responsibility; blaming the school just lets them off the hook and in some cases, ENCOURAGES them to think they're right, plus minimizes respect for the school.

Yes, some parents who are really trying would happen, and that's a shame. We're actually prime examples. We tried everything (literally, including group homes), but Jeff kept acting out in ways that shamed and angered Jim. He was a bully, took lunch money from others; he threatened his principal with num-chucks; he pulled fire alarms. No matter what we did, he kept getting in trouble. We knew the "whys" (well I did, Jim turned a blind eye and actually "disowned" him at one point), but I couldn't fix it. He felt unloved (by the time we got custody, his mom had ignored him pretty well), he was angry at his dad for "abandoning" him and his anger pervaded everything.

Despite all our efforts, he stayed that way into his mid-thirties. Now he is a really great person, and he and Jim talk on the phone and Jim can HELP him now, but nothing we tried worked back then. I always told Jim that if he'd just sit still, get Jeff to say all the things he had bottled up, show his rage to his dad, things would have been different. But Jim said he couldn't he'd knock Jeff's block off. I think if he had, and if he'd been open to Jeff rather than locking himself away, physically and emotionally, it would have been better.

So I don't know how you deal with kids who are bullies who DON'T get that attitude from their parents, I just think most of the time they do.

As to turning the other cheek making one the hero, I don't think that works either. Because most young people will follow the strongest, whether they necessarily believe he is in the right or not. It's a terrible time, high school, for youngsters trying to figure out who they are and what they believe.

Reading Wulfwind's posts in this thread makes me sad...such a black-and-white world, such an immediate, visceral response to any threat. Bullying in school isn't necessarily life threatening, and the smaller person will almost invariable be picked on, because bullies are afraid of tackling someone who might hurt THEM. It's the whole philosophy of bullies and why they ARE bullies...the desire to be alpha comes from fear as much as anything else.

Where you live certainly makes a difference, so I'll attribute it to that. Doesn't make it less sad and offensive.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Saturday, June 26, 2010 2:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I disagree on some points of that, Niki.

While by all means hold the parents responsible, in our society it's bitch-hard to find the time to do it right while running on the endless hamster wheel to keep the bills paid, and for a fact society and its influences, particularly the schools, often has more access to the kid than the parents do - a good parent can work against this, but even so it's not all that easy when the child is exposed to the parents values for maybe two hours a day versus the school community and it's values for six to eight.

So I'd say there is a certain moral responsibility there, and I'm not in favor of letting them dodge it.

Then there's the physical safety issue, and I do very much hold the school responsible for that - if they insist the child be present on their property, and unarmed, they have a certain responsibility to see to the safety of that child, and I don't just mean in the building, but so long as the child is at any kind of risk due to their actions.

The facts of the matter are abundantly clear, most inter-juvenille crime of the violent and potentially lethal kind happens at 3:00-3:15pm, and there's a REASON for that.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/9911_1/vio1.html
http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/9911_1/vio2.html
The aggressors know their victim is unarmed, and they know the school will refuse to assume any responsibility the moment the last bell rings - it's a perfect setup to hand an at-risk kid right over to em on a silver platter.

And while it might not necessarily be life-threatening, it for damn sure can be - when some kid shoots up a school the media is all over it, but what of the casualties who never make the news, some of whom I pointed out right here ?

This is also one of those places where my morals are in direct conflict with societies, because if we're gonna leave a child to their own devices, leave them utterly at the mercy of those who would prey on them, and then blame or punish them for self-defense, or bringing the matter to the attention of the authorities, I have far less qualms about them packing some form of personal defense than most, especially if the child in question has displayed sufficient maturity and understanding to comprehend the consequences of taking that action, up to and including the vilification they will recieve for not playing to the established social order by properly knuckling under and meekly complying with the official pecking order - let's not bullshit ourselves about that, please.

Believe me, I knew damn well when I slashed up that trio how much shit I was gonna take for it - but all in all I think I did a damn sight better than the poor sodder who got kicked to death in the stairwell a month before.

And isn't it just so very interesting how fast the school personnel rushed out there to detain me for the authorities, when they couldn't be fucking bothered to do a goddamn thing the week before when that same trio jumped me and sent me to the friggin emergency room, eh ?

It's crap like that why I earnestly believe in a childs right to self defense, using every bit as much force as necessary to accomplish it - and if that makes me a pariah, well, so be it.

-Frem

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Sunday, June 27, 2010 4:19 AM

KANEMAN

Bullying is Part of life. Let these little New York buggers man up. Bullying creates a social hierarchy, thus is an intricate and valuable function of life. Without it all children would grow up with high self images...What fun is that? One of the greatest feelings in life is to abuse and beat someone down so often that they can't get out of bed without crying.....See, we need weak kids so the stronger children have someone to beat up. They might get hurt fighting someone of equal strength....We wouldn't want that. Bullies are people too......

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Sunday, June 27, 2010 7:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Frem, I don't disagree that the school has responsibility, and most of what you said. I just don't think violence is an answer to anything, and I'm afraid even if it's only a few hours a day, I DO believe parents' attitudes are reflected by their children.

I have no easy or complete answer, I just think the parents have responsibility too.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Sunday, June 27, 2010 5:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh violence can be an answer, it's just that it happens to be about as piss poor of one as I have never known - it can be, but it shouldn't *have* to be, especially not in stuff like this, I mean, when children have to resort to it on a regular basis to protect their personhood it does wind up all but poisoning their psyche.

As you say, no simple or easy solution cause it's a matter of a lot of factors, on top of generational reaction to an inhumane social structure - but I gotta tell ya, the Sudbury model is a hell of a good start to changing the environment to something much less hostile, much less inhumane, which is why I am all for it.

The key to restoring parental involvement is gonna be a lot harder, as that'd involve a social shift regarding the whole carrot and stick treadmill game the corpies use to keep them endlessly spinning the wheel just to keep from being economically crushed and destroyed, but if I had an answer to that which I thought'd work, I'd be pushin it for all I was worth - still workin on that one.

But in the meantime imma work with what I can do, yanno ?

-Frem

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Sunday, June 27, 2010 6:20 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I agree with some of what Frem says, that bullying behaviour is systemic, that is where kids pick it up. They see it at home, on TV, from politicians and the media constantly.

It always seems strange to me when kids are picked up on behaviour that adults not only get away with but for which they are rewarded.

I can't get my head around your school system, but here the Education Department pays lip service to stamping out a whole host of bullying behaviours.

I've observed that people get confused about what constitutes bullying and parents often make the claim that their kid has been bullied, when they've been in an argument with another kid, or the two don't along. Bullying is not just being mean either, there has to be a power imbalance and the behaviours have to be ongoing with an intent to demean, isolate or hurt another.

There is also a tendency these days for parents to hurl themselves into kids conflicts and try to protect them, which doesn't allow kids to develop the skills to work out how to sort things out. Most of the time, sometimes with guidance, most kids can work out their stuff themselves. Personally, I think the pendulum has swung too far - too many interventions by adults, too many rules, too much nannying. The hilarious thing is that kids can sense the incongruity between what adults say and what they do, which makes all the policies in the world rather useless.

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