So. Speaking of demonstrations. Could be labelled 'Macing and beating in a park' by SignyM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Sig,

I thought you would be all FOR government intrusion, strong arm tactics and beating dissidents?

Well, at least while your party is in power?

Either you want the government to be subserviant to the people... or you want to BE a servant.

There is NO middle ground in this.

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Monday, June 28, 2010 12:22 PM

Sig,

Thats real scary.

Wulf,

When someone comes to your side, don't mock them.

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Monday, June 28, 2010 12:43 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Well, I think the police ought to do whatever needs to be done to keep order. No more, no less.

Heads should roll

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Monday, June 28, 2010 12:48 PM

KPO

WTF.

Nuff said.

Sig,

I watched and rewatched. The jackboots are out of control, no freedom to walk in the park if a member of the globalist elite is going to trod there. Die hippie! You do not deserve to kiss the boots of the Godlike Globalists. All hail the New World Order.... All hail ... Hey why aren't you chanting about he glory of your saviors... All hail. Damn it, I said all hail! CLOP!

That is damn disturbing.

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Monday, June 28, 2010 12:51 PM

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever. - George Orwell

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Monday, June 28, 2010 1:00 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Wulf,

When someone comes to your side, don't mock them."

I mock when they don't care if its their guys in power doing this.

OOOOOOOHHHH NOOOO! The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are wrong! Cus war is bad!

- Not to mention against the Constitution... but forget about that. Ok, so you are against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Great!

Now? "OOOOBAma is increasing the troop numbers there..."

SILENCE.

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH the Patriot ACT is wrong!

- I agree, the Patriot Act is wrong and un-Constitutional.

Now? "OOOOOOObama does nothing"

SILENCE.

Folks ever stop to wonder why we are getting ready to kick all these assclowns out of office?

This is why.

THey dont care. They con't care if something is un-Cnstitutional, or eve immoral... so long as its THEIR boy in power.

Kick them all out and BTIAF.

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Monday, June 28, 2010 1:04 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Lest we forget that there are at least two sides to every story...

Quote:
TORONTO - It was a day of unprecedented chaos in downtown Toronto as roving bands of G20 protesters set fire to police vehicles and smashed windows Saturday despite a $1-billion security tab and thousands of police at the ready.

A core group of militant protesters, disguised with dark bandanas, wearing black bike helmets and using what's referred to as a Black Bloc tactic, remained at large after their campaign of violence. Still, police vowed to bring them to justice.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100626/national/g8_g20_protests_1

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, June 28, 2010 1:06 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Sig,

I thought you would be all FOR government intrusion, strong arm tactics and beating dissidents?

Well, at least while your party is in power?

Either you want the government to be subserviant to the people... or you want to BE a servant.

There is NO middle ground in this.

Wulf, did you catch that this was IN TORONTO? Do you think Obama and the Democrats are in power and controlling Canada?

But I can see how you thought Sig shared your viewpoints about liking strongarm tactics and beating dissidents - remember how she went all cuckoo supporting Arizona's government intrusion, strongarm tactics, and making people subservient to the government?

Oh, that's right - Signy never did support that. That was YOU. Seems YOU would be in support of this kind of thing. Hell, I'm sure you'd get even more of a hard-on if the cops would start shooting into the crowd with live ammo. Nothing fuels your jerk-off fantasies like more guns, after all...

"I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal."

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

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Monday, June 28, 2010 1:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Wulf,

When someone comes to your side, don't mock them."

I mock when they don't care if its their guys in power doing this.

OOOOOOOHHHH NOOOO! The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are wrong! Cus war is bad!

- Not to mention against the Constitution... but forget about that. Ok, so you are against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Great!

Now? "OOOOBAma is increasing the troop numbers there..."

SILENCE.

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH the Patriot ACT is wrong!

- I agree, the Patriot Act is wrong and un-Constitutional.

Now? "OOOOOOObama does nothing"

SILENCE.

Folks ever stop to wonder why we are getting ready to kick all these assclowns out of office?

This is why.

THey dont care. They con't care if something is un-Cnstitutional, or eve immoral... so long as its THEIR boy in power.

Kick them all out and BTIAF.

I'm curious - who exactly are you planning to replace all these assclowns with? More assclowns? More people who, the second they get into power, will forget you even exist? You already tried that with your boy Dubya. How'd that work out?

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Monday, June 28, 2010 2:14 PM

You know Siggy - I was gonna say something along those very lines in the Stop the Traffic thread, and point out that the G20 mess up there was, as you said, all but silenced by deliberate media suppression...

But I felt it'd be off-topic and would get drowned out anyways, so a nod of appreciation for givin it it's own topic despite the flames you knew would be comin off that.

We *did*, mind you, score ourselves one edge, so far as it goes - VI has a van equipped with a small balloon, inflater unit, and a bunch of processing equipment, and the balloon is equipped with still and video imaging as well as high discrimination audio and frequency monitoring, all on a cable so it cannot be jammed or easily tracked.

It's *extremely* mobile, discrete, can be set up or taken down VERY quick, and covers a pretty good area.

Thing is, we've only got the one, and it's down in the Gulf Coast right now keepin an eye on BPs coverup activity - but yanno, soon as we can get together a set of DIY plans for that setup we'll be handin em off to activists and advocacies that have enough logistic support to build one, it ain't really THAT expensive when you can get a piece o junk minivan pretty cheap, especially if the interior is messed up, cause you'll be rippin most of it out anyways.

-F

ETA: Well, shit, I woulda thought Brandon (the guy who shot the top vid) learned his lesson in Philly! - guess not, but at least THIS time he got the footage out in one piece...

They're still goin about it all wrong though, you ask me.

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Monday, June 28, 2010 2:31 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

What do you expect for a $1-billion tax bill for security for the Global Nazi Dictatorship by the Jew World Odor Bankstas?

Dictator Hussein Obama is there, with his German Nazi Queen of Canada.

Google Battle of Athens Tennessee to see how mature adults deal with such situations. That was 1 year before fluoride was added to the water, cola and beer supply.

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Monday, June 28, 2010 2:38 PM

John

I don't follow. One billion for security for the globalists..?

ETA:

Geezer,

Are you certain about the order of events there? Or who set the fire?

I wonder whose words we have that we are drawing our conclusions from, and what conclusions we might have been expected to draw, and by whom. Sort of flotilla raid makes me think about this stuff....

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Monday, June 28, 2010 4:46 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Double, double, toil and trouble.

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Monday, June 28, 2010 4:52 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Geezer,

Are you certain about the order of events there? Or who set the fire?

Well, I have seen footage of the burning police car and smashed windows on the news, and googled for stories and images. They report that the protestors set the fire and did the damage. Videos do seem to indicate that cars were burned and windows smashed.
For example:

It does show Toronto police cars being smashed and burned, and Toronto newspaper boxes being used to smash windows.

Of course, this could all be fake, but then so could the videos SignyM posted. There's plenty of tape of protesters being arrested somewhere that could be re-branded to the G20 protests.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, June 28, 2010 8:23 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Sig, I thought you would be all FOR government intrusion, strong arm tactics and beating dissidents? Well, at least while your party is in power? Either you want the government to be subserviant to the people... or you want to BE a servant. There is NO middle ground in this.

You're such a dick, Wulf. I'm for government when it serves people, and against it when it serves corporations. I've been saying that all along. Nothing has changed. So either you can't read, can't comprehend, have a very poor memory, or the concept is too complicated for you.

ALSO.. Toronto. Hello? CANADA. "My party"??? I'm not Canadian, so I don't HAVE a party in Canada!

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Monday, June 28, 2010 8:38 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GEEZER: So, in order to control the burning and smashing, the Toronto police focus on a group of people sitting in a park????

WHOA! WAY TO GO!!!

Anyway, a Canadian friend sent me the links... he said there is a more-or-less small but permanent group of "hooligans" who go from intl meeting to intl meeting smashing windows and setting cars on fire but that the VAST MAJORITY of the protesters were peaceful Canadians. Apparently the tactic du jour was "flash protest", a kind of cat-and-mouse game between PEACEFUL protesters and the police that Frem would recognize.

He also said that the tactics police used in Toronto came straight from the Chinese police (aren't they all the same??) but it seems to me that they were the same tactics used in ... Detroit??... basically keeping people surrounded and not allowing them to leave, and then moving in to arrest them en masse. A lot of innocent people got caught up in the sweeps.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 2:01 AM

Quote:
...he said there is a more-or-less small but permanent group of "hooligans" who go from intl meeting to intl meeting smashing windows and setting cars on fire but that the VAST MAJORITY of the protesters were peaceful Canadians.

Okay, this is something that should probably be addressed, then. Anyone planning to go and protest should be networking with others, and plans should be laid out well in advance to cordon off these "hooligans" and NOT let them get up to no good. As it stands, if they exist and operate as described, they're besmirching the whole movement (and probably not accidentally or coincidentally, either).

Ooh - were they wearing purple SEIU shirts? ;)

But seriously, a larger group could surround the hooligans and keep them from being able to smash windows and trash cars, at least long enough to get the cops into position to deal with them. Just sayin'.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 2:08 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
GEEZER: So, in order to control the burning and smashing, the Toronto police focus on a group of people sitting in a park????

Nope. Just noting that there was more than just police violence going on. Could also be that the VAST MAJORITY of interactions between police and protesters were peaceful. Saw at least one clip of cops trying to convince a bunch of folks celebrating around a burning police car to move away before the gas tank exploded.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 3:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Seems like some protesters have a grotch against Starbucks!

I'm of two minds about violent protests. Because yanno what? If it hadn't been for the burning police cars and the broken windows, I'll bet the protests would have received NO MAINSTREAM COVERAGE AT ALL.

YEP.

NONE.

OTOH, aside from generating coverage, the violence doesn't do anything positive. I think the victimization of peaceful protesters does more to sway public opinion* towards anti-globalization than any number of burning police cars. Because we're against violent protests.... Except when we're covering anti-government protests in Iran, and then from OUR viewpoint, the more violent the better! We sure are slippery about how we view violent protests! But that's part of the problem of our contextual thinking... same activity, different peripherals = different response.

* Except Geezer, of course. Geezer will find ANY excuse to forgive jack-booted corporatism!

So, in your opinion: violence or no?

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 4:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Because we're against violent protests.... Except when we're covering anti-government protests in Iran, and then from OUR viewpoint, the more violent the better! We sure are slippery about how we view violent protests! But that's part of the problem of our contextual thinking... same activity, different peripherals = different response.

Aren't protests in Iran generally violent because the government won't let them be peaceful? I don't think the protesters there set cars on fire for the hell of it, like it seems some radical protesters do in freer countries.

Quote:
So, in your opinion: violence or no?

No. I believe in self-defense if peaceful protests are attacked and/or undue force is employed. If you're not throwing stone or burning cars, you should not be attacked with violence. It's the police's job to make sure things do not escalate and they have to answer for it if their behavior has that effect.

I do not think starting up with violence is justified, generally, and especially in countries where those basic freedoms have definite avenues and it's mostly done for the sake of publicity.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 4:22 AM

Yep, problem with flash protests, as the Philly mess showed up, is the amount of illegal surveillence going on not just of the protestors, but every form of communication - which the courts don't have the nerve to question.

Remember the guy who got arrested for that ?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/04/man-arrested-twitter-g20-u
s

So again, operational and communications security is PARAMOUNT to not having your ass kicked - I would lay good odds that the cops were showing up at each flash site just as or even before the protestors did, either via a plant/provocateur, or tapping in.

And the police tactic you're talking about is Kettling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettling
And yes, it gets a lotta innocent folk hurt - during the Philly G20 mess we had to use a couple borrowed vans for medevac, and that got nasty when they sent a chopper over and dropped teargas on a bunch of innocent folk not even INVOLVED in the protests and some of em had respiratory distress, including an asthmatic having a serious attack, which was compounded when the driver had to get "clever" getting around the barricade when the police refused medical treatment, and refused to let them leave - and they *did* shoot at the van, four holes and they dug two bullets out of there which match the issue loadout for police handguns, not that they'd admit to it.

And yet if any of those people died, you can bet they'd blame the protestors, look at the bridge mess during Katrina, yes ?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6063982
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danziger_Bridge_Massacre

Window smashin is usually about 50/50 - remember we got footage from the Philly G20 of an officer goin down the line smashin windows with his baton, it was submitted as evidence but of course that case ain't never gonna be addressed.
(and it don't have to, yon cop got busted for something else unrelated and pitched off the force, which just means he'll move on to the next PD, and the next, and the next...)

As for the burning police cars - forgive me this, but way I see it that's a legitimate target, if the cops can be forgiven beating folk to a pulp, smashing their cameras, teargassing them, then it's completely justified to trash their vehicles in return.

That one in particular strikes me as suspicious as shit though, either some massive one in a million coincidence set that up as nice and neat as a professional photo-op, and it just happened to go that way - and where exactly did the molotovs come from so very quickly ?

That's kinda like a wild boar showing up a hundred miles outside of boar ranging grounds and one guy in your camp JUST SO HAPPENS to have a boar spear handy - you start to wonder, yanno ?

And yes, some of those protestors *DO* have a big hard-on for Starbucks, which likely means those are the IWW guys...
http://www.starbucksunion.org/node
Given Starbucks behavior and how much shit they've been allowed to get away with, I can hardly blame them.

As for coverage, well, I got some ideas on that but none of em I am willing to tip the hand about just yet - I will say so long as you're playin by the other guys rules, you're losing, the conventional protest model doesn't work, and the ability to pull media blackout is a large part of it.

Quote:
So, in your opinion: violence or no?

Not without cause.

I think that someone being unlawfully arrested has a right to resist that arrest, up to and including *lethal* force if they so desire, cause if the arrest is purposefully illegal, then the badge and uniform means nothing and that is an armed criminal gang accosting you, by the letter of the law.

And since the police have no problem destroying protestors property and equipment without cause or compensation, their own property and equipment is fair game, save that ambulances should be sacrosanct for BOTH sides.
(still pissed about them shooting one of ours)

That said, any incidental or accidental damage to public property should be compensated for by the protest groups, and any intentional damage to public property should be an absolute no-go, and by NO means should anyone go damaging someones property that ain't involved save for being there, that's just being a dick (or a cop-plant) and shouldn't be tolerated.

But above all, operational and communication security - without it, there's no point in even discussing the rest of this.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 4:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's the police's job to make sure things do not escalate and they have to answer for it if their behavior has that effect.

And when they are under direct orders to escalate it as an excuse to use violence, as they were in Miami ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_model

I figure it this way, law or no law, when they start hurtin folk for no valid, justifiable reason, I honestly believe the protestors should at that point take the gloves off.

ALL the way off.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's the police's job to make sure things do not escalate and they have to answer for it if their behavior has that effect.

And when they are under direct orders to escalate it as an excuse to use violence, as they were in Miami ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_model

I figure it this way, law or no law, when they start hurtin folk for no valid, justifiable reason, I honestly believe the protestors should at that point take the gloves off.

ALL the way off.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

That's kind of what I mean by "answer for it". If they do not do their job (de-escalation), they should be held very, very responsible for the outcome and any justified self-defense.

I don't condone undue, vengeful violence on part of the protester, though, either. If they use excessive violence beyond self-defense, they lose my support. Same thing if they start up the violence.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 6:50 AM

JONGSSTRAW

They ought to hold these stupid meeting on military bases, or even aircraft carriers at sea. It's almost like they want the protestors there raising hell; as if it gives their stupid meeting some importance, and justifies the money and manpower needed to provide security.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 7:14 AM

Geezer

It seems unlikely that protestors would attack a police car efore the police had done anything, ESP given the retribution they would know would be coming, no?

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 8:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm for government when it serves people, and against it when it serves corporations.

Thats like saying your for government when it serves waffles (which our local Fire Dept does on Labor Day) but against it when it serves eviction notices.

Me, I'm for the law because while corporations may not be people (despite what the courts say), they are owned by people. Your just against the govt when it serves people you don't like.

Quote:

ALSO.. Toronto. Hello? CANADA.

I note for the record that a beating by a Canadian cop hurts less then a beating by an American cop. On the upside, your medical bills will be covered by the State plan.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 8:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
It seems unlikely that protestors would attack a police car efore the police had done anything, ESP given the retribution they would know would be coming, no?

They want the police reaction so they can feel all 'oppressed'.

This argument reminds me of Whale Wars, which I've recently started watching. By your argument it seems unlikely that they would interfere with the whaling operations especially since they know its dangerous and that the whalers might fight back...yet they set out with the goal of disrupting or disabling the whaling ships by intentionally causing them damage.

Sometimes folks do bad things even if they know its wrong and even if they know it might bite them in the ass.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:20 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm against violence in any protest, and I've seen more police violence than protester violence.

On the other hand, Whale Wars are against specific whaling vessels, whereas violence in protests end up with innocent people's windows being smashed, themselves being hurt/arrested just because of where they "were", etc.

If it can't be peaceful, it shouldn't "be", however it TURNS OUT. As well, I don't think there's any compunction on the part of people working within a peaceful protest to be violent--they know what might happen to them, but they DO do it anyway. There is always the chance of some group like that using a peaceful protest to further their own agenda, which is usually just disruption and riot. It happens sometimes. Why, I can't say--their motivation eludes me. But I don't think it's to get attention just for its own sake or to "feel oppressed"; the price is too high. Uncontrolled rage, maybe; people don't think too good when emotions take over.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:55 AM

Quote:
They want the police reaction so they can feel all 'oppressed'.

Hero, thanks for that, the most extreme conspiracy theory yet on the topic.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 12:03 PM

Actually Niki, the whole non-violent thing breaks down at one point.

Say the protestors brought their own holding pen, and when a couple cops started in on them, managed to overpower and disarm them, then restrain them and put them in that pen in the course of arresting them for felony assault and battery under cover of law - a valid charge in many protestor beating instances, which is the reason most courts pitch the arrests after the fact, cause otherwise they would have to answer to it.

But say, just for the sake of argument, the protestors managed to do that, okay ?

Firstoff, the cops would GO BERSERK, fuck orders, fuck the law, they would show their true colors as they went off the leash in order to retaliate to their maximum ability, which would show the world exactly how much of that control, restraint, and oversight is pure illusion - but it'd also get a lot, a LOT of people hurt.

And if by some miracle they managed to hold the line - bet your ass the military would be all into it next, remember MOVE, and how they BOMBED a civvie neighborhood, or the battle of blair mountain, or hell, Waco ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing

That's the thing with goin toe to toe with the powers that be, they outgun you, and do not, whatever, give a shit about the lives of us peons other than how they count as PR points, they will escalate, they CAN escalate, in theory, they'd take it as far as nuking you and then calling you nuclear terrorists while the media insisted that was YOUR bomb.

So you do not play the game that way, not by their rules, and certainly not head to head like that, oh hell no.

And offering meek obedience to arrests isn't an answer either, presuming the current powers that be have a conscience, or no stomach for it, that is also a mistake - if anything, they and their jackboot lickers LIKE it, case in point (and you earned this one, boy) can you really not imagine Wulfie watching those "hippy-lib" protestors getting beaten down by the jackbooted horde as ENTERTAINMENT ?

Screw that, playin their game, by their rules, is a losing proposition - I have some answers to it, but will not at the current time discuss em here, but seriously, THINK about it for a while.

-Frem

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 6:19 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Aren't protests in Iran generally violent because the government won't let them be peaceful? I don't think the protesters there set cars on fire for the hell of it, like it seems some radical protesters do in freer countries.

Well, they DO have elections in Iran, so Iran does count as a democracy. The answer could be: You have the vote. Peaceful change is within your grasp, so why resort to violence? And, just like Toronto, the police in Iran often use cover groups.

Unlike Iran, the G20 is NOT a democratic organization! How do you make your voice heard in the G20??? So I don't see such a bright dividing line between Iran and Toronto. More like a gradual spectrum, from tyranny to democracy, and violence to peaceful change.

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 6:24 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Me, I'm for the law because while corporations may not be people (despite what the courts say), they are owned by people. Your just against the govt when it serves people you don't like.

Oh, I hate to say this Hero, but altho I respect the law in principle, the way it is practiced here the law is a whore. A lot depends on who's got the most money, because you can find a precedent for just about anything somewhere in the past... all you need is a herd of law clerks to dig it up for you.

Quote:
Sometimes folks do bad things even if they know its wrong and even if they know it might bite them in the ass.

Which applies to the illegal whaling on the part of the Japanese, I suppose? Gander sauce= goose sauce

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Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Aren't protests in Iran generally violent because the government won't let them be peaceful? I don't think the protesters there set cars on fire for the hell of it, like it seems some radical protesters do in freer countries.
Well, they DO have elections in Iran, so Iran does count as a democracy. The answer could be: You have the vote. Peaceful change is within your grasp, so why resort to violence? And, just like Toronto, the police in Iran often use cover groups.

Unlike Iran, the G20 is NOT a democratic organization! How do you make your voice heard in the G20??? So I don't see such a bright dividing line between Iran and Toronto. More like a gradual spectrum, from tyranny to democracy, and violence to peaceful change.

I did not bring democracy into this. I never disputed that Iran is theoretically a democracy. I do think it is not a very free country, though.

As evidenced by the fact that the protests in Iran would probably not have been all that violent if the government hadn't instigated it against peaceful protesters and arrested so many innocent, even uninvolved, people - with the sure promise of torture involved.

I don't think the people setting cars on fire at G20 occasions are pressured into it, although excessive force is often a big subject there. I think they choose to. For whatever reasons. They give the entire protest a bad name. I consider them hooligans, nothing else.

ETA: Worse, they create false justification for the unnecessary force that the police use against innocent, peaceful protesters. They allow media the soundbites and images to spin every story against the protests in general. It's just... gah, so stupid and selfish. I don't buy the "blind rage" thing. If you truly cared for your cause, you wouldn't undermine it for a cheap, momentary thrill of lashing out.

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 5:50 AM

I dunno, I still think the cruisers are a legit target.

If the cops think they can commit physical violence, injury, and property damage with no repercussions...
(since any lawsuit comes out of tax money and thus you're having the victims in essence pay themselves - when IMHO it OUGHT to come outta the police budget, but even then they'd just howl for more outta the general fund)
Then the cruisers and all of their equipment becomes a legit target.

That said, again, toe-to-toe is a bad idea.

But fuck with me, harm my people, damage my property, and imma HURT you, hurt you bad, stick it to you hard in ways hard as hell to defend against by turning your very own system against you.

Fuck torching your cruisers, or pushin around your officers, I'll go after you where it hurts, I'll bust you in the budget, right in the chops, get behind some front that for whatever reason wants that police budget cut, and start strongarming and manipulating political support onto their side, using counter-propaganda tactics to make the cops look like overpaid incompetent fools dripping with corruption and bad intentions.
(not that it takes much, with most departments!)
And then proceed to steamroller you and all your little badge bearing friends with enough public opinion and support to make it a fait accompli, or slip the knife in all quiet like while the publics attention is somewhere else, but either way imma bleed you, bleed you WHITE, instead of blue - make you look at your friends and buddies wondering how their gonna make it when the pink slip lands in their hand, seeing your laid off cohorts scratch and scrape in the unemployment line, smashing that veil of invincibility created by the lack of any real-seeming accountability...

And worst of all, there's about shit you can *DO* about it but be professional enough, disciplined enough, and well-behaved enough, to remove the excuses I am using as a prybar to empty your coffers!

Look at the Detroit PD as an example, this was always comin, step by step, from getting Pugh on the council, to steamrollering Bings veto, that six and a half million dollar kick straight in the nuts has been coming for a long time, and they coulda stopped it at any time by behaving like something other than a criminal mafia - but they didn't.

So screw torching a cruiser that's insured and will be replaced by the end of the day while making yourself look like a terrorist - cops fuck with me, I will hurt em, hurt em DEEP, in ways they cannot even wrap their mind around till it's too late - all them officers moaning and pissing about the pink slip, who no longer get to play at being lords, who have to scratch and scrabble like us peons, wonder if they're gonna make it through the month without winding up ass-deep in debt, subject to the whims and petty nastiness of the government beauracracy, having to bend over and take it the same way they handed it out...

Maybe they shoulda thought about that kinda thing BEFORE they started hurtin people for shits and giggles, neh ?

Sure, it's a bit sadistic, but you damn well better believe I am feasting on their misery, blue bastards don't like the taste of the shit sandwich so much when it lands on THEIR plate, do they ?

And worse - it gave every damn township in five counties the idea of holding them accountable by yanking up the purse strings, leaving all these corrupt little bastards with their knees knockin together over a yellow puddle, you understand ?

Fuck going head to head with em, get a good sharp edge, political, financial or what have you, and plant that sucker right in their back while they're not lookin.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:33 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Uh, Frem, we seem to be talking at odds. I think I stated that it was a fallible argument because protesters don’t and wouldn’t USE the technique you mentioned. You said about the same thing. Where are we disagreeing? On who protesters should behave with regard to cops? I’m confused.

Sig, to me the comparison to Iran is fallacious; the elections were rigged, everyone knows that, so how does one protest by voting, when voting is corrupt? Just wondering.

Agent, re the “blind rage” thing. You’re forgetting something. BLIND rage does not coexist side by side with logical thinking; if it did, it wouldn’t be rage. The whole concept of blind rage is that of giving in to emotions, especially heightened, illogical emotion, which yes, generally acts against the cause which elicited it. But considering consequences doesn’t come into it, or it wouldn’t happen. Well, except for those whose intent was violence in the first place, and those rational enough to think their cause is so big it’s worth getting arrested or beaten. I can understand that last, but it’s a matter of individual thinking, and not my way. Which is not to say it never WOULD be.

Frem, I think if every cause had your smarts, things would be done that way more often. But they don’t, they go for more direct means. Ergo, it turns out like this sometimes. Most people don’t think in terms of long, drawn-out solutions or manipulations (tho’ some certainly do), they think in terms of making themselves heard, right now, right here. Obviously that’s what happened, with the addition of some people who, for whatever reason, got violent...there can be myriad reasons, but I think mostly it’s unthinking anger, if you don’t count those who just get off on creating violence for its own sake, of which I think there were more than a few.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:57 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
KPO

WTF.

How about, as a summary:

Police brutality - Bad
Protester violence - Bad
Law and order - Good
Police keeping law and order (even preemptively?) - Good (though with bad side effects)
Bourgeoise international sporting tournaments - Bad
Man-handling of peaceful anti-globalist protesters - Bad (despite its poetic value).

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 8:07 AM

Niki,

what I meant to say is that I do not believe that they are acting out of blind rage.

Not that they should control their blind rage, which is understandably impossible, as you have pointed out.

I do not believe that they are blinded by rage, but that those who needlessly set cars on fire and destroy people's property are motivated by something else: a selfish wish to lash out and "break rules", completely unconnected to their cause. And what they are blinded to is both compassion for other human beings and the real consequences of their actions for both the cause they support and the people they affect.

Like football hooligans.

Again, I am not talking about self-defense, or actual blind rage which might be brought on by actual unjust police violence. (Of which there was plenty in Toronto. Ugh.) I'm talking about those who intentionally set out to destroy. And yes, they exist.

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
They want the police reaction so they can feel all 'oppressed'.

Hero, thanks for that, the most extreme conspiracy theory yet on the topic.

As if this is a new idea. You don't think the Sons of Liberty wanted the British to fire on the crowd in Boston. They admit they did, Sam Adams was there egging it on. The Lobsters in question were found Not Guilty by a Boston jury on the basis of the very theory I put forth to you.

Great scene in the movie Ghandi were he was laying out and then executing the exact strategy I suggest is often at work.

In my town we recently had an Open Carry demonstration by a fella carrying an assault rifle down mainstreet. Had another fella video taping so they could get the police reaction. Fortunately our highly trained officers merely investigated the report of a man with a gun and finding nothing wrong wished him a nice day (after calling him stupid, which the guy was, and making fun of his gun, which was a crappy Chinese AK...buy American folks). I looked up this group's website and they are all about getting police to react so they can post the video and then sue.

In some respects its not a bad strategy. Shame their protest comes at the cost of so much property damage and injury to innocent people (including the police).

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 12:45 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ah, Agent, I see. And I agree completely.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:24 PM

Quote:
... and making fun of his gun, which was a crappy Chinese AK...buy American folks).

I would, if an American company were capable of producing a semi-auto carbine that could fire more than one or two mags of ammo without jamming. I've yet to encounter an AR that can pull off that feat with any kind of regularity. My "crappy" Chinese AK has had thousands of rounds poured through it, and never jammed or failed to feed or eject. Ditto my "crappy" Russian AK. And my "crappy" Yugoslavian AK. Hell, every army worth fighting uses some variation on the venerable AK platform - even the Israelis!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 3:52 PM

Oh I ain't sayin they SHOULD torch the cruisers, Niki - I am just sayin that by my lights, according to my own personal moral scale, they have cause to do so.

But just cause you CAN do a thing, don't often mean ya SHOULD do that thing.
Or that it'd work like you intended, and the escalation one was intended to showcase that, how you maybe COULD do it...

And Then What ?

My ex calls me "The Department of What If ?" - cause I really do think this stuff all the way through, such as is possible, before I go and do it, and a lotta protestors, they don't do that, and too many of em up till the past coupla years had a lot of "but they wouldn't dare!" roadblocking their thinking.

We're not disagreein at all, I just wanted to showcase exactly why going toe to toe with the powers that be on their battleground by their rules is such a losing proposition, cause we really do need new tactical doctrines for (relatively) peaceable protest to and civil disobedience to have a functional role in modern society.

And you better believe imma workin on that, oh yes indeedy - you know how in metal drilling and stuff they have active sonic damping matched to stomp flat the sound waves so the workers don't get deafened ?
(Word got out when we tested it, so I can front this one publicly)
Well that active damping works via matching and suppressing the frequencies cause they're known and you can project a counterwave, neh ?

The L-RAD sonic weapon is no longer a threat, any time we do not wish it to be.

You know, despite being just the idea guy and not having even one bloody ounce of the science background to make stuff like that happen, just for coming up with the concepts and all, I think imma buy me a lab coat to go with the goggles...

My nieces were on the kitchen floor laughing this afternoon over the same bloody thing - they're pestering me to go see Despicable Me cause it reminds em of our relationship, to which I finally (they caught me at a slightly bad time) roar into the phone "I AM NOT A SUPERVILLAIN!"... cue complete hysterics.

I dunno, you think the mad scientist thing'd work even better with visible prosthetic equipment... I think it might indeed...
(Cue: excessively melodramatic maniacal laughter)

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 4:17 PM

Oh, since I mentioned it, the trailer for it.

Ok yes, it's a little familar, but I resent the supervillain thing, a bit, maybe...

-F

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Wednesday, June 30, 2010 5:16 PM

Whether or not it's a good idea is a matter of the consequences. I would take johns point that globalists are essentially responsible for 250 million deaths. Of course, most of this is at the hands of jackboots. So, if a cop elects to be the jackboot, then they have just walked into the line of fire.

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Thursday, July 1, 2010 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I would, if an American company were capable of producing a semi-auto carbine that could fire more than one or two mags of ammo without jamming. I've yet to encounter an AR that can pull off that feat with any kind of regularity.

I've never had that problem using either my newer one or my Dad's that he got in the 1970's.

Could be the ammo your using.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Thursday, July 1, 2010 8:03 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

He might also be "limp-wristing"....

Not that much of a stretch.

heheheheheh

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Thursday, July 1, 2010 8:09 AM

Or it could just be a really shittily-designed weapons system that is routinely outmatched by 60-year-old Russian surplus goods.

Oh, wait - do you guys have to use that nancy little hand-loaded, hand-polished pussified ammo in your rigs? That's so precious - do you have to talk sweet to it while you stroke it, too?

Hell, I just grab any cheap Russian or ChiCom surplus ammo - some of it 50 years old or so - and throw it in my AK, and it just works. Once a year or so, I even break down and clean the damn gun a little bit, or knock the mud off it.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, July 1, 2010 8:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
He might also be "limp-wristing"....

Not that much of a stretch.

heheheheheh

Really? An AR won't fire correctly unless you HOLD IT a certain way? Do you have to call it honey-bunny, too?

Wow. And I thought the new iPhone had issues. Hell, they've had 50 years to figure this stuff out on the AR, and they STILL haven't gotten it right? Sheesh... Eh, what can you expect from a weapon designed by a guy named "Stoner", right?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, July 1, 2010 8:47 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, Frem, I saw that one. I might actually break precednce for one of the rare times in my life and go to the theater for that, much to my shock. It looks WONDERFULLY written...screw 3D, it might be worth laughing at with a bunch of other people (one of the few uses I have for crowds of humans!)

On another note,

for your mere existence.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Thursday, July 1, 2010 8:58 AM