Do you believe in God? by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Do you believe in God?

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Friday, July 16, 2010 10:00
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VIEWED: 3640
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Thursday, July 15, 2010 8:43 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mmmm, excellent Kuda. Fits with what I believe in many ways; I've long felt that there is some kind of "energy" around, and that if we could evolve past our smallness, we'd find power in the brain that could be utilized.

Who knows, in a hundred years or two, if we don't kill ourselves and/or the planet off, maybe...

May the force be with you.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 8:47 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Why do libs/progs always talk about "energy"?

"Oh that was a great show, they had so much energy.. etc"

I tend to believe its because..

1. Libs/progs are so lazy that anyone doing ANYTHING is amazing to them.

2. Being high, drunk, or somewhere inbetween... robs you of any strength... so again, someone doing something other than feeding themselves, and barely making it to the bathroom.. is god-like and worthy of praise.

THEY HAD SUCH ENERGY.

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 8:50 AM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I admit, its hard to show people the truth when they have not had the same experiences.

In the end, its up to you, who you are, and what you believe.

Ok, tell us then, O Great Mystical Prophet, what that truth is, seeing as you are no doubt the "enlightened" party you are referring to. You sure do specialize in throwing out vague, flowery statements (ironic, for how much you profess to despise hippies) but I never see you actually explain what the hell you're talking about. So come now, you clearly think that due to your traumatic upbringing that you have some better understanding of the situation than any of us could possibly fathom. How about you actually elaborate on what you're talking about and not sounding like a cheap knockoff of Luna Lovegood.

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:02 AM

HKCAVALIER

Belief is a sad thing. There is no belief without fear, without doubt, without a feeling of insufficiency and shame. It's like a child waiting for the father he's never seen to finally come home. But if we let that hope die, let the dream fade and feel our pain, thoroughly, we will become wise and dwell in knowledge and proceed from awareness. Everything we need is within us or within reach. We need to let go of this Cosmic Dead-beat Dad and do what we can with what's in front of us. The world is a truly beautiful and magnificent place when we stop trying to see past it and start really looking at it and into it.

I perceive that the Universe has a conscious aspect. We humans are but one form of that consciousness. We can experience our own consciousness as its only spark, or we can actually commune with the awareness beyond ourselves and discover that we are part of a vast, or Universal, consciousness. Anyone who meditates seriously will, in time, learn this simple truth (what you do with that information is up to you). There are other methods, of course, but meditation is available to all, free of charge and in the privacy of your own home.

The fundamental illusion, the primal source of all suffering in human life is separation. History teaches me that the idea of a transcendent, separate deity is brutally destructive to human happiness. So I avoid it.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:10 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I have seen death, up close and personal. Watched as the life drained out of my fathers eyes as I tried to save him. He was an atheist, btw, and all I saw in his eyes was fear as he died.

I was there as my mother died, close enough to hear the "death rattle", or the last of the air seeping out of her lungs. She died hard and over months.

I, personally, have faced death, knocked out and alone (except for my wife, whom I didnt know was there), in some hospital bed, dying from some unknown illness.

The last thing my grandfather did, before he died in his home, surrounded by his family in his armchair, was to stand up.

I have seen the sun rise in several states, and it set as well.

I have fought, bled, and nearly died defending my life, and the lives of others.

And what I have learned is this.

There IS a source of light, hope, faith and goodness. It gives you the extra 10% you need to overcome, when you've given all you have in the pursuit of something good.

And when, it is your time, if you understand it, and have no fear, it allows you to die well.

You will not always understand it, or even be grateful for it. But its there.

Religion? Thats just a bunch of people standing around a pool table, staring at a cueball in the center.

All these people have a different view of it, and each can only see a slice...

But yet, now, they think they know it all.

Jesus, Mohommad, Buddha... all sons of the light, all trying to show the world the truth.

But people need things simple, and to have a structure and order in their lives. So, you have religion... a man made creation.

Ive given it much thought, tried to learn the lessons laid out in front of me... but Im not always correct.

So, have your way, snark as you see fit. Its what I believe.

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow, Cav, you sound like a buddhist!

Quote:
The fundamental illusion, the primal source of all suffering in human life is separation.

One of the basic precepts of buddhism, that it's the separateness of humans that causes suffering...you sure you're not buddhist?

Quote:
We are not separate, but apart of each other. Our unity is greater than our separateness. Buddha’s teachings begin with awareness of the reality of impermanence. All mental and physical phenomena are impermanent; nothing is static. We are in a constant process of evolution. Buddha showed that our attachment to impermanent phenomena and the notion of a separate self cause imbalance and suffering.

See?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:18 AM

KANEMAN

"One of the basic precepts of buddhism, that it's the separateness of humans that causes suffering...you sure you're not buddhist?"

That is why Buddhism is for retards. Where does starvation, war, rape, and a good ole ass-whooping fit into that human-separation thingy when it comes to suffering? Sounds like idiot religious academics.

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You won't catch me snarking, Wulf; what you wrote was very eloquent and I don't disagree with most of it.

I've seen death, too, and heard that rattle as my mother died in my bedroom after a long battle. But it didn't teach me anything about an "afterlife", only about humans. She was quite religious in her way and definitely believed in a god, but she was as terrified as you said your dad was. I believe it's because she knew what she'd done in her relationship with me and my dad, and was afraid of the reckoning. For some people, belief in a god and in heaven frightens them when it comes time to face such things.

Quote:
But people need things simple, and to have a structure and order in their lives. So, you have religion... a man made creation

I agree with that completely, and my feelings about organized religion are well known by now.

I'm not sure I believe in some kind of "light"; given the discussion elsewhere about Jesus, I'm assuming some don't see him that way. But I tend to believe you're right; all three were trying to help in their way; unfortunately I think the problems inherent in mankind is kinda bigger than all three put together...sigh...

Not sure why you thought anyone would snark at you; I consider it eloquent and it speaks to me.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:34 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hi Niki,

Buddhism is correct, I am conversant with its teachings, I just don't self-identify as a Buddhist. I particularly take issue with its doctrine of avoiding anger. (Though, I've recently discovered that the Tibetan word which we translate as "anger" doesn't really mean simply emotional anger, but includes its violent expression--whereas, "anger" in English can be divorced from violent acting out. Translating Buddhism into English is very tricky business, much is lost and much is so foreign to western thought that distortion is all but inevitable. I enjoy studying it, however. I plan to investigate this further--it's in the queue, as it were, but I have a lot on my plate just now.)

When I was in my twenties and finally dealing emotionally with the brutal reality of my upbringing, I found myself making it a daily practice of meditating on death. I would systematically imagine everyone I loved dying brutally before my eyes. I did this for close to a year every morning. At the time I thought I'd wake up one day with all my hair shaved and wearing saffron robes. Never happened though.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well put, Cav. I have disagreements with buddhism, too...like I'm still on the fence about reincarnation...but am very appreciative of what it's given me.

And you're right, translation is difficult, and for the reason you cited; our mentality is so different, it's hard to "grok" meanings sometimes.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 10:11 AM

HKCAVALIER

One pet peeve of mine is the way Westerners interpret "the renunciation of the ego" as if they can do it once and for all and be done. "Oh, I renunciated my ego years ago, can't you tell?" Drives me nuts and it's complete nonsense from an authentically Buddhist point of view. The renunciation of the ego is a daily, at times moment by moment practice. There is no "I" without the ego. The idea that one can simply get rid of the ego is the height of egotism!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 10:28 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I'm more Buddhist than anything else, yet I believe in some form of Cosmic life force, kind of a Universal battery that powers all things. Not intelligent as we know intelligence, but intricately wired into us all, the high and the low.
Some living memories survive death, that'd be reincarnation in a way.

Nice answer.
Your idea is pretty close to my thoughts on the subject.

I read a book in high school(can't remember the name) about a group of doctors that became believers in the afterlife. All were formerly non-believers that had experiences with patients that were clinically dead and were brought back to life. These patients described fantastic visions, and feelings while they were "dead". Being that the brain has no thought patterns while they were dead(some over 20 minutes) it got the doctors to wonder. That wonder lead to a firm belief in the afterlife.

----------------------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 10:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mmmm, Cav, right on in my opinion. I can't imagine how anyone could feel they'd "renounced" the ego, as it is part of us. I realize that some have meditated long enough and found the closest thing to "nirvana" in which their ego is perhaps subliminated...but one can't renounce it.

I guess maybe they mean they've renounced putting themselves first? or selfishness? otherwise, I don't get it--and if it were either of those, even, it wouldn't be true.

While I accept that separateness is something to fight against, I can't imagine comletely getting rid of it, and if you can even say "I", you have an ego at work, yes? I can see saying "I'm WORKING at renunciating the ego", but claiming to have achieved it seems to me the HEIGHT of ego!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 10:44 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ego, superego... whatever.

There is you.

Period.

Yeah, the lizard brain will whisper to you, but its more of a friend than anything else.

Back to the wall, outnumbered... you better be grateful FOR that lizard part of you.

ETA: That WOLF part of you, I would add.

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:43 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I particularly take issue with its doctrine of avoiding anger.

As anger is a *natural* response to injustice, I too have problems with that- but, I let it go when I can...

The problem with it, I mean.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Thursday, July 15, 2010 12:45 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ego, superego... whatever.

There is you.

Period.

It's all a road, not a destination, BTW.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, July 16, 2010 4:25 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

"But people need things simple, and to have a structure and order in their lives. So, you have religion... a man made creation."
-------------------------------------------------------------

That, right there, is the single most intelligent thing you've said in this entire thread Wulfie. I applaud you.

BTW, I believe I answered your initial question but, as you've so eloquently have stated, people need things simple; so here it goes.

No, there is no God, and yes there is.

Allow me to expound on that bit of supposed lunacy. There is no God as has been ingrained in me from childhood. An all-knowing being looking down on us from on high and allowing us to love him (free will), saving us from ourselves (sacrificing his only son - basically himself in human form) and punishing those who don't follow his rules; as he sees fit.

Now, I love children. Little kids should be loved and protected by the adults in the family. You follow me so far? My one picadillo with God is just the children. If there is a God, then he would not have them suffer, not even for a second. The argument I get from "believers" is "it is his will" and we cannot "understand his will because he is God and so far above us."

This is a dealbreaker for me; an adult can defend himself, a child can't. An adult must protect and nuture the children, period. So, for me, God is in everyone. As the Stevie Wonder song "Heaven is 10 Zillion Light Years Away"
says "Where is my God" - He lives inside of me.

This is what I believe.

I don't want someone telling me that I'm wrong because millions have converted over to a certain way of thinking, and that religion and following these set of rules, no matter what, is THE correct way to live. Someone of the christian faith once told me that following God means separating from one's family if thats what it takes to be saved.

When I was a kid I was always lead to believe that God was FOR the family. That God/Jesus loved children. Then who better than the family to help raise those kids. Seems logical to me.

So no, there is no God. Especially not how corporate religion depicts him. God is in each one of us. We strive to be our best and excellent to each other. Now, we do have some assholes (cough, cough - Cheney) who wants to rule the world. It is up to the good guys to keep those evil bastards in check. So we need to put their feet to the fire.

There is one other truth that you soundly and bravely put out there, much to my surprise, and it is this:

"Ive given it much thought, tried to learn the lessons laid out in front of me... but Im not always correct."

Every single man and woman on this Big Blue Marble could utter those words and mean it. Truer words have never been spoken by anyone, Wulfie. And for that I commend you.

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Friday, July 16, 2010 5:16 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ego, superego... whatever.

There is you.

Period.

It's all a road, not a destination, BTW.

The laughing Chrisisall

And it's not even a one-way road. It's a superhighway of souls!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, July 16, 2010 5:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Shiny, eloquently put, and also rather buddhist of you. And I like "corporate religion"; I've always called it "organized religion", but in many cases, your terminology is more right on.

I don't know about the "I've given it much thought" thing being something anyone could say. There are an awful lot of religious people out there who I don't thing have given it ANY thought; after all, in a way THINKING is the antithesis of religion for many, isn't it? Something to blindly follow; something to tell you how to be, with promise of reward or punishment, as it were?

I admire those who DO, as long as they don't prosletize, because in general I think if you actually THINK about it, you find what's best for you. All religions are good; all religions are bad; it depends on how the person personifies their chosen religion. JMHO.

I'm more cynical than you in that I think we have a lot more than "some" assholes, and I don't think everyone tries to be the best they can be. Again it goes back to thinking--and questioning.

And lastly, yes, Mike, it's a two-way path. We can go forward or we can go back...or just stand there and go nowhere. That's the trap.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Friday, July 16, 2010 9:48 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ego, superego... whatever.

There is you.

Period.

It's all a road, not a destination, BTW.

The laughing Chrisisall

And it's not even a one-way road. It's a superhighway of souls!

Oh, and keep in mind that on the highway of life, the painted lines are merely suggestions. You do not have to stay within the lines!

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Friday, July 16, 2010 9:57 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Oh, and keep in mind that on the highway of life, the painted lines are merely suggestions. You do not have to stay within the lines!

I always liked, "there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run there's still time to change there road you're on".

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Friday, July 16, 2010 9:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Good one, Kirk, and right on target, in my opinion.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

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Friday, July 16, 2010 10:00 AM

KWICKO

It's Led Zeppelin, from "Stairway to Heaven".

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