Jericho by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Jericho

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Friday, July 30, 2010 05:07
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1488
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Sunday, July 18, 2010 12:40 PM

Just picked this up, woulda done so earlier but the first merchant tried to get away with not handing it over and keepin my money - thus engaging my lawyer and bank, both of whom got a laugh out of me spending like $200 to get back $40, but it's the PRINCIPLE of the thing, had I thought I could get away with it, I'd have chased em down, decapitated em and stuck the head on a pole in my front yard, cause I'm LIKE that, breakin contract with me is a damn bad idea.

Anyhow, got stuff to say about the show, and imma put the first post up as a spoiler bar, and then go off and write it.

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WARNING: SPOILER THREAD, SPOILERS WILL NOT BE MARKED.
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WARNING: SPOILER THREAD, SPOILERS WILL NOT BE MARKED.
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-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 1:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Okay, finished watching the last of the first season this morning (I got the full set) and there were a couple things that jumped out at me.

From a technical perspective, it's all well written and bent in a more realistic direction than most series of this nature, the only tech issues that jarred were the overuse of user-operation-prohibit on the DVDs and that some of the bluescreen and CGI work was pretty low quality, most obviously with in-vehicle shots and the train scenes were about as bad as the car surfing bit from that james bond movie.

Very forgiveable, on the budget they were running on, since the show revolves more around the people than the stuff, most fireflyfans would take to it some for that reason alone.

As to the characters, I felt a certain kinship with Hawkins, but moreso with Dale, since I know what it's like being left to your own devices and *still* being considered and treated as subhuman just because of your age, but I'll get back to that in a moment.

The two deputies stood out pretty well in characterization, I daresay whoever hired Bill should be flogged, as the man is an obvious Jackal all but begging for the chance to put some jackboots on, and should have NEVER been given a badge for any reason - that person likely being Johnston Green, that's one of the few black marks against his judgement which really should be held against him, especially as given half a chance to sell the town out for a set of jackboots, Bill would most certainly do it in a heartbeat - which means leaving him in a position of authority is criminally neglectful.

The other deputy, Jimmy - while he puts up a front of slightly dim and gabby, he is both smart and tenacious, puts things together quite well and is very talented at thoroughly picking at loose ends, while coming off as a bumbling oaf - and yet it's Jimmy that comes closest to cracking Hawkins cover story, enough to KNOW it's a cover, and that there's something going on, which he only in the end lets go because of his trust in Jake.

Seriously, if I was going to interrogate someone, I would have Jimmy do it, cause he'll get you something, and all Bill would get you would be a lawsuit.

Speaking of interrogation, when Hawkins "interrogates" the New Bern deputy in Casus Belli, I got a kick out of that, he nailed it out of the park by-the-book, and then explains to Jake that going hands-on doesn't work cause the most effective threat is pyschological, further cementing his "cred" as an effective agent to anyone who actually knows something about that kind of work - especially opposed to New Berns complete failure to get any useful information out of Eric despite using actual torture.

The wild card of Prowse lingering about also is handled far more realistically than most series do, and the character is well written and believable, if not exactly likeable - and the story winding around the different views of folk makes for interesting moral questions, from not wanting to deal with him over personal history, social blind spots, his own untrustworthiness, and giving him too much leverage, and what combination of those reasons apply to each individual helps define their own characters in response to his.

But what struck out at me the very worst, and it's well written but I wanted to discuss, was how Andersons actions *very* much contributed to the beginning of hostilities... and WHY.

Despite being more of an "adult" than most of the people around him, Dale is given pretty short shrift by most of the population of Jericho, considered subhuman for no better reason than his own youth, and not at all respected as a person outside of the Green family - this becomes amplified when Skylar tries to step up into an adult role and become more responsible and no one, NO ONE, but Dale accepts this whatsoever.
(Were it not for the Green family standing behind it, the townies would have just *taken* the store, without a doubt.)

Also very noteable is how they left him to the wolves regarding Mitch, throwing adult responsibilities upon him without the decency to treat him as one, and so he resolves *that* situation in much the same fashion I would have.

And this all comes to a head when Skylar attempts to assert her personhood via emancipation papers to Mayor Anderson, who categorically rejects it, not because he thinks her parents are alive, not because he doesn't think she is responsible, but because the EXCUSE of her being below "the magic number" gives HIM control of what should rightfully be HER resources - a control issue, with him exploiting her youth for his benefit, in defiance of the law.

Had I been Dale I would have flat told him that if he would not respect the rule of law, than there *IS* no rule of law and I would make my own - Dale chose to keep his mouth shut rather than start trouble, which was perhaps a mistake, but not much of one because he was in Andersons territory without an effective line of retreat and outnumbered besides - since if he pushed it too hard Anderson could have just locked them up "for their own good" without too much flak about it due to that whole lack of respect for them due to age problem.

Anderson also moves *immediately* to prevent them from having access to resources (the salt) which did rightfully belong to Skylar, and then refuses utterly to even ALLOW them to honor a deal they made in good faith, which effectively cost Jericho very little, in an effort to forestall hostilities with New Bern.
(not that it would have, but it may have bought them time)
This was an especially stupid move since Dale had been very touchy about holding to agreements, by force if necessary and while not liking it one bit, it had begun to force acknowledgement of him as a person and businessman instead of a subhuman almost-pet which could be pushed around at an adults whim - by stomping on their deal, it also pulled the rug out from under any other resident of Jericho who had a deal of any kind with Dale since if that stood, then their own dealings were no longer secure or credible.

Worse was that it touched off the fight that essentially began hostilities, and the fired shot which set it off was fired deliberately by Deputy Bill, on purpose, because he *wanted* to "control the situation", or wanted a fight, a mistake he made before earlier in the series at least once.
(If you look careful in the background, you can clearly see him do this)
Again, I think it a strike against Johnston Green to ever let that nimrod have a badge and gun in the first place.

And of course this eventually spirals out of control into the events in the series finale - but I found it telling that one of the essential sparks which lit the fuse was the disrespect of Dale and Skylar as people simply due to their age, and even in defiance of the rule of law and trade customs - not even for any particularly important reason (it wasn't like they didn't have the salt) but rather because of Andersons refusal to accept their personhood due to his own control/authority issues.

This also prompts Dale to start thinking "Fuck Jericho", since even with the assistance of the Green family in backing his claim to the store, he prettymuch had to seize it by force, and keep it by force, thanks to the adults not respecting his personhood - and he decides to no longer view their authority as legitimate after the incident at the mine, adopting a far more Anarchist bent, eventually coming into the war on his OWN side, for his OWN reasons, rather than accepting the towns government as legitimate authority over him, and out of respect for Johnston Green and his family.

I found that part of the story very compelling, that despite his strong work ethic, sense of responsibility, and a certain maturity above most of the "adults" in town (observe how fast he lets go the personal grudge by allowing Skylar to decide whether to sell to that lady or not) - he still gets such a short end of the respect stick, and in a way that while not immediately obvious, amounts to Jericho chewing off their own legs over a social convention that isn't even applicable to the situation.

The series is definetely worth the price though, it hooked me in much the same way Firefly did for a lot of the same reasons, and I think most fans here would very much appreciate it, even PN cause it's most certainly got bits in it that would seriously appeal to him, heh.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

wrong forum ?

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA

No, because it DOES relate, I was workin on the second piece while sorting out a scheduling issue for tonights coverage of our sites.
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Further thoughts on this.

That's the here and now, but let's us take a little look down the road here, about the long term consequences of such things.

Except for, and maybe even in spite of, the events at the beginning of season two - Dale was gonna eventually become a serious problem for the people of Jericho, trust that word coming from someone who's seen such things a thousand damn times.

And why, why is that, do ya know ?

Because somewhere in there, Dale learned a lesson, and imma tell you what it is, stripped off all else but the essential root.

Somewhere in there he learned that - rules, laws, the mythical rule of law, religion, social convention, all the things that supposedly make society work...
They're bunk, what REALLY matters is power, might makes right.

That this is not necessarily true, is meaningless because in his eyes and experiences so far, it *IS* true and he's not seen an ounce to refute it yet, not even with the military occupation since they "have the means to make it stick" as Major Beck put it, enough might to make THEM right, period.

Tell me people, where you think Dale learned this lesson, who taught it to him, in every action, every word, every interaction towards him, neh ?
Why, the "good" people of Jericho, of course - helped along by New Bern, and now the Army.

You can see this when he starts massing his own power bloc, trying to accumulate more territory, more resources, and most importantly the force, the might, to make SURE they *remain* his, so that no supposed "authority" can just abitrarily take them away or control how he uses them - and THAT lesson, specifically, he learned in one place, from one person.

Even without the problems of New Bern, or Jonah Prowse, this would eventually come to a head between his power bloc and that of Jerichos supposed "legitimate" authority which he no longer recognizes because he's seen for himself that it's entire foundation is based on a lie, that rule-of-law shit sure didn't matter when Skylar tried to file those papers, did it now ?

And do you really think that Anderson would have meekly accepted this, that the "adults" who could not find it in themselves to regard him as a human being would ?

And sure as day follows dawn, they - the supposed "legitimate" authorities, would try EXACTLY THE SAME SHIT MITCH DID, wouldn't they ?
Obey or else, do or die, might makes right.

And Dale would respond in exactly the same fashion that we've already seen, he would call their bluff with overwhelming force, by surprise, in the dark, because he is NOT STUPID - which would go badly, initially due to lack of experience no matter how bright he is, and then go very badly for Jericho when he turns and holds the door open for Jonah Prowse, who ALSO learned that lesson somewhere in his life and would be more that happy to make a deal with Dale to stick it to the town that damn near lynched him - and that'd be all she wrote for their whole little society.

And they'd howl and rant and scream about how "ungrateful" Dale was, and whinge and whine about the rule of law, and unfair it all was, wouldn't they, even though in truth they wouldn't have nobody to blame but themselves and still, even then, would ever be too blind to see it.

You wanna know how and why our youth declares war on us, on our society, why they hate us to, why they see *us* as the liars and hypocrites, unworthy of the respect we demand by threat of force.

Well, there it is - that's EXACTLY how it happens, step by fuckin step.

NOW who you gonna blame ?

Every action, every word, you exchange with a young person teaches them something, whether you want it to or not, whether you mean it to, or not, and one should be keenly aware of that each and every time one is perhaps tempted to mistreat them.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:45 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'll have to check it out. I'd never heard that it was socially complex or realistic before.

--Anthony

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 3:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA

It was surprisingly so - by focusing on the characters and their interactions rather than the "action" part of the story.

Amusing counterpoint to that is one of the Anime series I am watching did that by *accident* - it was supposed to be a formula-type exploitation of the mecha story theme, but on a short budget they decided to go with character interaction and development since it was easier to anime than the big action stuff, and unintentionally delivered a series of much better quality than your typical mindless action-fest.

And yanno, I think that's where Firefly did it right as well, I'll take those chemistry loaded kitchen table scenes over less-talky-more-shooty any day, I mean, don't we have ENOUGH of that tripe around already ?
(Hey!, Michael Bay!

)

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 5:02 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think it's the scriptwriting equivalent to a spaghetti western shootout. Not literally, but metaphorically. Like in the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

The characters face each other. We get a long, close look at each of them. We see every crease and imperfection on them. All of their anxiety, all of their determination, exposed for us to marvel at. Tension builds.

When there finally is action, it lasts about five seconds.

And yet... completely satisfying, perhaps moreso than the usual action flick.

--Anthony

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 6:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Damn good flick that, got it on the shelf behind me, right next to The Outlaw Josey Wales.
In fact I learned a little bit of wisdom from the most unlikely source, Tuco.
"When you have to shoot, SHOOT, don't talk!"

And also, I had forgotten the final nail, the sort of last-straw thing which is gonna set Dale against them...

Being handed a rifle and exhorted to defend the very town and people who treated him in such a fashion, right AFTER being a direct witness to them setting off the violence so needlessly to begin with - to be adult enough to die for them and their purposes, but not adult enough to be allowed to make his own decisions...

You can SEE that burn in his eyes there, that bitterness, and it's gonna bloom rather quickly, especially if the Army goons seize his store or refuse to honor his deal concerning the abandoned farm - it's damn near inevitable he WILL wind up working with Jonah, at least somewhat, and maybe even some side business with New Bern too just to jam a couple thorns in the side of the Army and Jericho, while massing more power and resources under his own hand - kind of like Jonah did, and it makes me wonder if Jonahs history with the town is a lot like that as well, and he might have *reasons* to feel the way he does about things.

And I am not whatever in doubt about that being his intentions cause just after the incident at the mine, he tells Skylar that people were not nice to her father because they liked him, they were nice to him because they were afraid of him, because he had power...

And while he doesn't say the rest of it out loud, you can be pretty DAMNED sure he's thinkin that they need some of their own before anyone takes them seriously, some might so that THEY can be "right" - and his subsequent actions confirm this without an ounce of doubt.

It wasn't New Bern he was intending to hit or threaten with that "big stick" he was building that way, which leaves only one intended target, doesn't it ?

We treat them as our enemies, and it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy.

-Frem
Note: All of the character interactions are written and played that well, Stanley and Mimi crack me the hell up, seriously.

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Sunday, July 18, 2010 9:02 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Frem,

I knew you'd like the show, glad you've caught up to it--you're gonna LOVE the final episodes, I'm thinkin'...won't spoil it. And the Hawkins story was actually surprising in its resolution. I'll have to rewatch it if I'm to speak to your comments here--all those names kinda wash over me as I read 'em right now.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, July 19, 2010 1:44 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ya won't be spoilin it now, just finished up the finale.

Dale doesn't have so much to do with the story in the second part, but watching J&R pull company-store tactics on the town, being railroaded with no trial by Ravenwood, and only cut loose cause a bigger fish stepped in - that is only gonna drive the message home even harder, no matter how it goes Dale is gonna wind up just like Jonah, never respecting ANY authority but power, which will eventually destroy his humanity and cause him to wind up...

Well, a lot like Goetz, if not *exactly* like Goetz, cause that's HOW people get that way, they're not born like that, we make them into the monsters that they are, one piece, one hurt, at a time.

As for the rest,
Lets just for the moment say...
Those people are a hell of a lot nicer than me.

Because either Beck woulda turned a lot sooner, which I likely coulda done, knowing all the right hooks to use, all the right things to throw at him...
Or him and his command staff would have been swingin from ropes, strung by his own men, in short order.

Also - Stanley did what was right, cause much as we desire, much as we WISH, it never comes to that... sometimes it does, sometimes, it HAS to.
And sadly, it's *going* to come to that with Dale too, eventually, which is the saddest damned part of it all.

I know this, I woulda NEVER let Goetz off that bridge the first time, he had five men, and even at a cost of two, three to one, cheap at the price - they would have just *disappeared*, you understand, those humvees might be found some day, eventually, at the bottom of a local river, but by that time no one left alive would care.

But no, they played nice, they let him get away, and trust that I was cussing them bitterly for fools at the time, that cost them, it cost New Bern, it cost a lot of people it didn't have to, and if Stanley had not done what needed to be done, it would have cost more.

Sometimes, you *need* to be the bad guy, you *need* to do something horrible, without justifications, without excuses, but doing that, well... that's the easy part, the hard part is knowing when to STOP, and the harder part is living with yourself afterwords - and even if you can do it, it'll never, EVER come cheap, and it shouldn't, that's the price we pay for our humanity, even those of us who have a little less of it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, July 20, 2010 7:13 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Just saw episode 1x01. I enjoyed it, although I found the 'bus low on fuel' crisis to be superfluous and illogical. (The bus was meant to deliver all these kids, and would doubtless have had sufficient fuel for the job.) It's possible, of course, they kept the bus running all that time it was stuck, which would explain the fuel crisis.

I can't wait to see how the story develops. So far, that man who claims to be an ex-cop has proven to be the most savvy problem tackler, followed by the son of the mayor and the teen whose parents died.

--Anthony

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Tuesday, July 20, 2010 10:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I think it was because they had to take a detour that they normally wouldn't, I remember it being mentioned but it's an offhand comment that's easy to miss.

Hawkins is a very savvy kinda guy, although I feel a more powerful kinship with Dale given how I see strong echos of the age-conflict attitudes which drove me onto my own path there - but yes I can identify with Hawkins, you'll understand more of that as you watch, and an inability to tell folks close to you things... it's murder on a relationship, it is.

Jake, the mayors son is pretty much the pivot the show revolves around, and of course I already mentioned Dale, the kid who's parents were wiped out in Atlanta - the actor deserves a lot of credit cause he's playing a character that doesn't show a lot on his face, so he's playing that all with his eyes, which is a tricky business, and yet another of the points on which I identify with him.

The mayor, Johnston, has a very paternal form of leadership, and has a few interactions with Dale where he in particular doesn't treat him like he's subhuman - which later results in Dale standing to for the town when Johnston asks him personally, although he's still fighting for his own reasons.

And I loved the kooky guy with the ham radio, that was such a nice touch, kinda reminded me of PN a lil bit, heh heh.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, July 21, 2010 1:03 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I finished episode 1x02.

I particularly enjoyed the segment at the end where he keeps grabbing thumbtacks. One after another after another. I love storytelling that delivers a lot through small movements, gestures, and acts.

I am beginning to suspect that the 'ex cop' is a government agent of some kind, but that he's avoiding saying so. His skillset and judgment seem to be beyond anything I've seen law enforcement display in the past. (No offense to any cops on the board.)

--Anthony

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Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Yes, I like the way it comes on kind of slow at first, with a community prettymuch in denial, striving to return to a normalcy they know in their hearts doesn't really exist anymore - that's when the story really starts taking off, around Episode six, but laying the groundwork and developing the characters is so bloody well done I got no complaints.

Ya just gotta love Stanley, he's your typical american dogged nice guy farmboy, the ones that choose the farm and have no resentment - I know quite a few of those, mostly Hutterites, and they're people you just can't help liking - his sister Bonnie is great too and watching them and Mimi go back and forth is a gas.

The writers did a really good job of wrapping all those personal stories together into a believeable community, which is one of the strengths of the series.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, July 22, 2010 6:31 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Just finished 1x05, and I'm confused about who the ex-cop really is. I thought he was a government agent, but now I'm not sure. He seemed to have advanced intel about the bombs, and was colluding with some other folks about... something. He has resources, weapons, and a family programmed to lie. It's all Greek to me.

--Anthony

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Thursday, July 22, 2010 10:26 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Anthony - this is gonna be tricky to explain, but I'll try.

One major problem with clandestine operations is the dichotomy of the thing, the officials want control, but every ounce they have compromises the security of the operation, and micromanaging things is a recipe for disaster, this is *WHY* I do not fear our current pack of alphabet goons overmuch, since their control issues make them wholly ineffective.

Now, enter the typical clandestine agent, with regular reporting pipeline and then focus on how they get caught, every single time ?

We don't even have those any more, not really, firstoff there was Afghanistan/Iraq - who is gonna be willing to risk their very life getting solid HUMINT only for it to be ignored and dismissed cause it's politically convenient to believe something else ?

And after the shit the former administration pulled on Valerie Plame - nobody from the old school bunch will work for Unca Sam no more, so all the newbies are from a school of thought that mostly comes from political fantasy and propaganda rather than actual on-the-ground experience - as some have put it, watching bullshit like "24" and thinking things work like that, which they don't, and most em are hellcamp victims turned stooges who really have a taste for being on the dishing-out end of things, merry little torturers who will get you whatever you WANT to hear and be damned to the facts of the matter, complete ham-handed incompetents the lot of em.

However, before that, we learned a bit about autonomous operation from crap like Phoenix and COIN and whatnot, which are mostly military, and basically involve dumping a bunch of trained psychopaths deep in enemy territory with orders to "eff them up bad", which was what our "advisors" in Nicaruaga were teaching the Contras to do, you see ?

Out of that came the idea of an Autonomous agent, someone who you can send in alone to drop sand in the gears, jam up the works, and will do so as an ongoing thing while trying to find a way to drop the hammer on them and foil the plot completely - who doesn't need their hand held, can react according to the situation and doesn't require that ever-so-dangerous pipeline because they will make the decision about when or whether to check in or not.

In a way, it's just a little like how my unit had me set up to deliver food supplies to units where airdrop or convoy was either suicidal or would reveal their position, and radio contact would be like painting a damn bullseye, they give you the truck and the mission and the next they hear from you is when you bring the empty truck back - and if you don't all they lose is one guy and a truck, cheap at the price.
Which is one of the reasons certain folk kept pushing me in that kind of direction, which wasn't gonna happen cause of an issue they failed to account for - I have tremendous loyalty to the *idea* of america, but precious little for an administration wanting to demean it.

See, when you send in an Autonomous, you have NO control over what they do, even if you try to set a handler to them one of the first things they'll do when it becomes a bad risk is cut em loose or even eliminate them as a liability - and you cannot appeal to them through most normal means because if they are operating deep cover most of them do not have close family or friends, and blackmail, threats or bribery will have little effect since they're already up to their neck in something that could make them very dead if they fumble it, so you don't really have any leash, you see ?

Hell, you can't even really stop them if you decide to cancel the operation cause if you cut their access or support, they will just roll their own locally and keep right on trying, as many operations are compromised from above, often as not sold out for political points or because diplomatic relations with the target have changed, and those people just don't have it in them to roll over and die, like commercial airline pilots, they'll hang in there till the very last second and go down swinging.

So it comes down to a matter of trust, of faith, both in them and in what they believe, heart and soul - it's fairly easy to commit your life to a cause when you have seconds of it left, but a whole order of magnitude different to commit all that you have, all that you are, to a long-term goal that might not even be realistically possible - this requires a strength of self and belief which cannot be swayed by threats, bribes or hardship.

So you'd better be damned sure of what you wish to accomplish, what they believe, before you send them in, cause it's like launching a cruise missle with no abort command, since you can't even cancel the operation - they'll just consider the mission compromised somewhere above them, go silent and keep right on going - the ONLY way to stop em is to kill em.
And bear in mind, as a rule they're DAMNED good at what they do.

That oughta explain Hawkins to you, give you the context to understand him and his actions.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, July 24, 2010 5:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Just finished 1x15.

Which could be subtitled:

"Now I have a Tank. Ho Ho Ho."

;-)

--Anthony

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Saturday, July 24, 2010 1:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Hell yes, that's even funnier when you consider that I know a group of commune living hippies who have a Soviet T-72 (Formerly owned by Tankride, LLC) with a functional 75mm in the turret and a handful of shells for it, complete with proper DD-tax stamps.

They bought it during that fiasco with the FLDS down in Texas, as a deterrent in response to the threats being made by the authorities at the time, out of funds they had initially intended to use to buy a John Deere.
The hilarious part of that is that the damn tank was hella cheaper than the John Deere and in fact serves as an excellent tractor since it can use the same attachments thanks to some aftermarket modification, and they're running it on biodiesel, complete with a freaking peace flag flying from one of the radio antennas.

I thought they were flat bonkers at the time, mind you - but I gotta admit that's one holy hell of a deterrent to feds looking for another Waco.

As for the show, as I mentioned - in Episode 9, I would have NEVER let Goetz off that damn bridge alive the first time, a couple molotovs and a storm rush would have done the trick and come cheap at the price, it's not like they didn't *know* what they were dealing with, and better to take him out then than face him with half his damn army at his back, but admittedly my way of looking at stuff like that isn't compatible with most peoples.

Episode 11 also shows exactly where Dale starts walking down the dark path, when the "adults" leave him to swing regarding Mitchell, and so he handles the matter in the exact same fashion I would - which leads to a darkly humorous note when Mayor Green tells Dale that some day Mitch is going to screw with the wrong person and wind up very dead, unknowing that Dale has already killed the bastard.
(one could also take this for Mayor Green gently hinting that Dale should do just that.)

Episode 13 has a short discussion between Mayor Green and Dale about his well intentioned stupidity, and the Mayor uses a light touch making sure that Dale took a lesson from this, rather than bashing him over the head with it, showing him a personal respect that is what later encourages Dale to stand with the town in the events leading to the first season finale.

The other storylines are also fascinating, the way they weave through each other and present a sense of community, and the characters are for the most part realistic and believeable - it's what the series runs on, and it's a potent fuel indeed.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, July 26, 2010 4:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Just finished the series, and watched the regular and alternative cut of the final episode.

Damn good show. I'll tell you the number-one thing I liked about it...

Every time someone made a decision on that show, even when it was a 'win' decision, it had consequences. There were no free lunches. Each victory carried a price. Each price carried a consequence. Each consequence necessitated another hard choice, with victory and defeat hanging in the balance. And then the cycle started again.

Kind of like life.

I'm glad they were able to give the series a semblance of a conclusion. It got a better ending than Firefly.

Oh, and I'm glad I got to see 'George Hearst' (McRaney) in a happier role. That actor is very good at playing both heroes and villains.

I'll tell you what I didn't like about the show...

I could believe it. Gave me the willies. For some reason, the situation in this show is much more realistic and scary to me than the commie-invasion antics of a 'Red Dawn' scenario.

--Anthony

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Monday, July 26, 2010 5:17 AM

CHRISISALL

Wow, sounds like a great show, but I am SO done with stories that never get finished (I'm also done with shows that just go on as long they possibly can making up story as they go).

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 1:52 AM

KANEMAN

I just bought this and watched first 4 eps. Really good. As for the bus being almost out of gas...It could have been a leaking line because of the crash...I'd like to know how she made a pot of coffee for the prisoners with no electricity(the pot was a glass mr. coffee....

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 3:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Cause Stanley has a small generator, Kane - that's what the fuel tank powers, since it's full of gasoline rather than diesel, which is what most tractors run on.

Farmers generally have three fuel supplies, a tank of #2 Fuel Oil for heat, Gasoline and a generator, and diesel or bio-diesel for the tractor.

It's never explicitly mentioned, but a couple folk in that town do have generators, Skylars house has one and she gets kinda bitched out at one point for being flippant in her use of it.

And yes, Anthony, very chilling, especially to someone who heard firsthand from soldiers who were there, of Haliburton/KBR/Blackwater doing the same shit in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq that J&R/Ravenwood did to Jericho - that being one of the primary reasons for hostility towards our forces in the area, the rampant exploitation of american corporations who are militarily protected and unassailable with any reprisal other than violence.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 4:15 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"As for the show, as I mentioned - in Episode 9, I would have NEVER let Goetz off that damn bridge alive the first time, a couple molotovs and a storm rush would have done the trick and come cheap at the price, it's not like they didn't *know* what they were dealing with, and better to take him out then than face him with half his damn army at his back, but admittedly my way of looking at stuff like that isn't compatible with most peoples."

Hello Frem,

I was thinking about this today, and it reminded me of something else.

Quote:

"Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."

Goetz' role in the troubles of Jericho may be considered important to the way events unfolded. A more kindly, competent, and less-corrupt Ravenwood agent might have created a positive sentiment in the town. A sentiment that may have eventually proved to be the town's downfall as they more gleefully sided with the devil. Goetz' evilness paved the path for resistance, and his incompetence made sure that he got caught and killed when the time came.

It reminds me of something my father and I talked about once. "Would you go back in time, if you could, and kill Hitler before he rose to power?" The answer I got was, "Hell no... Someone less crazy and more intelligent might have risen instead. Someone who'd have made fewer mistakes, committed fewer atrocities. We might all be speaking German if someone else had been standing in Hitler's shoes."

So, as says the old man in the book, "Even the very wise can not see all ends."

--Anthony

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 4:40 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wow, sounds like a great show, but I am SO done with stories that never get finished (I'm also done with shows that just go on as long they possibly can making up story as they go).

Who told you it didn't get finished? Sure, it got cancelled but I'd say this show has the best ending a cancelled show ever had. They wrap it up real nice, y'know climactically and all. Sure, there's room for all kinds of more story but the issues raised at the top of the show are resolved by the final episode.

Think of the first Star Wars--would you have said that was "unfinished" if Empire never came out?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, July 27, 2010 5:04 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Who told you it didn't get finished? Sure, it got cancelled but I'd say this show has the best ending a cancelled show ever had. They wrap it up real nice, y'know climactically and all. Sure, there's room for all kinds of more story but the issues raised at the top of the show are resolved by the final episode.

Oh crap, now I gotta get it! Thanks a LOT for makin' me that much poorer, HK!!!!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 28, 2010 4:22 PM

FREMDFIRMA

How ironic - I all but knew you would make that exact argument right down to the Gandalf reference.

I counter with this: we will never know how much strife and trouble Aaron Burrs fateful shot saved us.

You can't predict such things, the butterfly effect of any decision can have consequences so far beyond your understanding or time frame that you have no idea what they could even be.

But against a KNOWN and IMMINENT threat, I will act immediately - say someone threatens to burn my house down, and I consider their threat to be honest and credible, do you really think imma WAIT till they come back with the equipment to do it ?
Hell no, imma crush the threat, right then, right there, it's my way of doin things, always has been, to reduce or counter a threat as immediately as possible, not because of what they COULD do, which is bullshit, but when the intention and will to act on it is clear and unmistakeable, I will not wait around for that to happen - I mentioned that most folk who try to draw a weapon on me never clear leather, and my tactics are a natural extension of that philosophy.

In fact, as regards the One Ring - shit, Elrond should have NEVER let Isildur off that ledge with the Ring, oh hell no, even if he had to tackle him into the fire himself - and by that failure to act on what he KNEW, utterly and completely KNEW, would be an unmitigated disaster if he let it pass, he assumes a certain responsibility for what came after, which he tries to weasel out of by blaming humans in general and being something of a racist prick - but it was HIM that let Isildur walk right past him, Ring in hand, and I ever found that inexcusable.
He should have *finished the job* - A belief you may note is also echoed in my sentiments towards the GOP, given just how many times we let them walk away, and just how many times we have paid in sorrow, treasure and blood for that mistake, when will we ever learn ?

Shoulda, coulda, woulda - in a way it's not too different from choosing not to snatch someone out from in front of an oncoming bus, after all, it MAY not hit them, they MAY not die, hell, maybe they're an evil git whos gonna be the next tyrant if you save em - but you cannot KNOW these things, as you say, cannot know all ends...

And so you act on the information that you DO know.
And when you are dealing with a clear and imminent threat, to let it slide, no matter what rationalization people wish to apply to it cause they're only human...
That's a mistake, and all too often a damned costly one.

Think on this.
Someone comes up to you, someone with a noted previous hostility to you, openly carrying a holstered weapon, and they announce clear intent to shoot you dead.

At what split second do YOU act ?
When they announce, when they reach for it, when they draw it, when they point it at you, when they begin to pull the trigger ?
When would YOU, make a pre-emptive strike ?

Myself, I wait for action, words are cheap, but the very split second their hand moves toward that weapon I'm done talkin.

Goetz made his intentions VERY clear, and the carnage in Rogue River was plenty enough to give full credibility to his threats, it was even blatantly obvious he was about to go get reinforcements to become an even greater threat - there's no WAY I would let that happen with the means in hand to prevent it.

Funny: while we're discussing one cancelled series on a site about another cancelled series, a scene from yet another one, Space: Above and Beyond, comes to mind regarding this discussion, and extremely relevant.

SAaB Episode Three, The Dark Side of the Sun, Capt Shane Vansen makes a similar decision regarding their mission objectives, despite her squad thinking her judgement compromised (and it is, a lil bit) and her intentions a needless risk - as to whether to bunker down and await reinforcement, or act aggressively, and her response, makes perfect sense to me.

Quote:
Shane: They don't leave this rock!

All else aside, letting them get away with that fuel would cost lives she did *not* want to be responsible for.

I can understand that - but bein able to explain why I do to other people, well, that's the hard part, innit ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:55 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

You make a compelling argument about Elrond and Isildur. The very fact that Isildur took the ring showed beyond a doubt that he'd already been corrupted by it. Still... I wager it's hard to kill a friend. I bet he wished he had, generations later, when the aftermath of his inaction became fully apparent.

I'll still tend to err on the side of compassion, myself. It's an easy choice for me. Especially since I'm not fast enough to nail anyone before they clear leather. I've either gotta be covering them and ready to go, or I've gotta survive that first shot- because it won't be mine. As fighters go, I'm no Doc Holliday or Wyatt Earp. I just like their weapons. :-)

--Anthony

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Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:20 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Yah, I'm still trying to cope with the simple fact that some day I will NOT be fast enough to pre-empt someone elses aggression - one reason I've started listening to Wendy and Alice instead of brushin them off, but ones own nature and habits are not something so easily dismissed.

Btw, I LOVED how that movie and the actor did the character of Elrond, cause he really was a semi-racist, self-righteous prick of the first order, and too many times they've glossed that over - and one of the few places they did a better job than the books was making Boromir a deep and believable character, cause he gets kinda shorted on characterization in print.

That said, alas poor, poor Glorfindel, he's been screwed in like, every adaptation, and I keep picturing him on a corner with a "will work for food" sign, yanno ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 30, 2010 2:57 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Yanno, it wasn't just the big chords that made this series so good, it's all the little ones too.

There's one scene where the gist of the conversation is "we need a volunteer for this stupidly-dangerous scheme", and of course no one pipes up, and slowly, one by one, every head in range turns till they're all staring at Jake.

I about rolled out of my chair laughing, knowing all too well EXACTLY how annoying and frustrating that is - Major Beck also calls him on it later when he points out that regardless of official leadership, when it hits the fan he's "The Guy" that they're all looking to.

Two other notes were Hawkins, as I mentioned where he "interrogates" the New Bern deputy quite effectively without even coming close to real hands-on, and when he bawls Jake out for his assassination plan against Constantino and then tells him how he shoulda done it before walking off in disgust.

Oh, and in case it wasn't immediately apparent, which it might not be to anyone without certain tradecraft experience...
"John Smith" and his entire little verbal come-along were bullshit, he was one of Valentes new pet goons, traditional-style, on a nice tight leash, telling Hawkins what he thought Hawkins would want to hear based on a combination of Hawkins psych-profile and Valentes "understanding" (which is a misunderstanding, cause a sociopath like Valente isn't CAPABLE of understanding a guy like Hawkins) of how he thinks, in order to get him to jump through the hoops - and Hawkins was playing along to buy time while exploiting that contact for all he could, in fact it was "John Smith"s ability to manipulate J&R which confirmed Hawkins assessment that "Smith" was one of Valente/Tomarchios goons, cause no independent, autonomous, or stringer would have the kind of access to do something of that nature so quickly, which indicated he was directly connected and taking orders from them.

While he tried real convincingly to come off as the mastermind, a lone wolf crazy, or suchlike, he's just a flunky takin orders from Valente and way the hell out of his league.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 30, 2010 5:07 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"While he tried real convincingly to come off as the mastermind, a lone wolf crazy, or suchlike, he's just a flunky takin orders from Valente and way the hell out of his league."

Hello,

I have no problem believing that the guy really thought he was the top dog, whilst the real leaders allowed him to think that and used him to their purposes.

There's no reason you can't be crazy, AND a pawn, AND think you're the Queen, all at the same time.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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