A Heroic Figure? by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A Heroic Figure?

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Monday, August 2, 2010 07:44
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Friday, July 30, 2010 4:32 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://www.ivillage.com/do-you-need-double-d-cup-fight-crime/4-a-16667
9?obref=obinsite

Hello,

I read this editorial today. I found that the author was not particularly even-handed in his/her critique. One comment in particular:

"So…movie producers felt the best way to introduce the death-defying female Indiana Jones was to totally expose and exploit her, yet the man’s privates are conveniently obscured. Shocking"

Contradicts the evidence presented in the very same article. (We didn't get to see the female body parts either, so how is this an illustration of sexualization bias?)

However, I do agree with the general idea the author is trying to convey. Female heroines in film tend to be of the wrong body type for the sorts of characters they play. Super-thin heroines with huge 'assets' would not appear to be the ideal crime-fighting form. We expect our male heroes to be physically buff, but for some reason our female heroines cleave close to the Barbie Doll 'ideal' most of the time.

One of the reasons I liked Hamilton in Terminator 2 was because it looked like the character had made a real effort to become dangerous and powerful. Muscles rippled, making me believe that she could take me to pieces bare-handed. We see something similar in Aliens, as Miss Weaver has a stringy, lean musculature that suggests power waiting to be unleashed. There is also a female Marine in the movie who is shown to be physically powerful. We can easily believe that these women are on par with the men around them in terms of physical strength.

Physical strength is admittedly less of a factor for gunmen and people using weapons. This is why the frail-looking Doc Holiday in Tombstone seemed quite dangerous, while I doubt anyone would favor him in a fistfight with Wyatt Earp in the same film.

More and more, however, we see these thin, frail-looking women with huge busts take on and defeat much larger, brawnier men in physical contests. Even an action hero like Indiana Jones isn't seen to physically overpower larger, stronger adversaries. He uses guile and wit and determination to defeat them. Often, he endures quite a beating before he manages it. They don't show him trading blows with physically superior opponents and getting the upper hand that way. He has to think outside of the box, make use of superior tactics, or overcome superior power by the strength of his faith in his cause. Still, he takes his lumps, and this allows us to 'buy' into the character.

I enjoy seeing women on screen, shown to be the equal of the men around them, but I'd also enjoy a selection of women who look the part. One need not have a supermodel physique to play a female warrior. Quite the opposite is preferable. I wish there were more muscular, athletic women shown in our action films, and fewer barbie-dolls who test my suspension of disbelief.

What do you all think?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, July 30, 2010 4:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

It's film

Guys like chicks w/ curves. Otherwise, we'd not buy the tickets.

( did I just sound a bit like Whozzie there ? )

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Friday, July 30, 2010 7:18 PM

HKCAVALIER

I dunno, Anthony--every few years this kinda article seems to get trotted out when a particularly buxom actress like Ms. Johansson stars in an action flick, but I think it's mostly hype. Folks paid more money to see AVATAR than any movie ever made and the female lead was pretty marginally endowed. The Matrix was a huge hit and Carrie Ann Moss was pretty fly while at the same time, I suspect, "smaller than a full C." Sooooooooo, I think the premise is crap.

Angelina Jolie is an exceptional case. Neither Halle Berry nor Jennifer Garner are particularly renowned for their bust lines, no? Remarkably striking women, both, but they hardly support the article's premise.

Some folks are so fascinated by boobs that they'll write whole articles with no greater justification than to talk about them and blame EVERYONE ELSE for being overly fixated.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, July 30, 2010 10:12 PM

REENACT12321

While I understand the concept of superheroines being more... heroic and less sexualized, the article is rather poorly thought out and full of fallacy. It's a lot of "what this world needs" and "how it used to be"

It also is clearly written by someone who views women's equality with men being defined as "the same as men" a concept that I believe will be a social bump in the road to be ironed out over the next couple decades. Men and Women ARE DIFFERENT. The sooner the more militant feminists can get a handle on that without insisting that by this we meen "inferior" not just different, the better.

Women have a very hard time developing the upper body strength men can,

Men can't make people.

Women navigate by landmarks and visual cues

Men navigate by an internal sense of direction

Women in even the most controlled tests gravitate to accouterments for creating a soft appearance for themselves, and toys that inspire nurturing or community nature at a young age.

Men in the same tests, will head for guns, rockets, things that light up, make loud noise and generally propose a threat to their physical health more readily than girls

In both cases do firetrucks get played with by some girls? Yes, do some boys seek out stuffed animals or prefer community type games (pretend life, namely "play house") Yes! but we're talking majorities.

Women have wide hips that the majority of men find attractive

Men have broader shoulders and other features which most women find attractive

Acknowledging those differences in how we conduct society without saying these differences make someone "better" (other than perhaps that whole firefighters lifting people thing) is important and apparently equally different for hardline feminists and sexists alike.

So, in this case would heroic, strong women, be endowed? Some yes, some no, probably a similar percentage to normal women, maybe perhaps less endowed women, as those with the most striking physical features from both genders do tend to get special treatment from their peers. But that's a whole 'nother psych study.

Big question though, would men watch if it wasn't Scarlett Johanson heading up the femme fatale dept? Probably not, (though maybe, since enough of us just wanted to see R.D. Jr. blow some more stuff up and be the unapologetic Tony Stark we know and love.)

Oh and one particular line in that article I'd like to address. "does a woman need to be gorgeous and well equipped to be a good spy?"

Um.... maybe not always, but for the most part. YES. Just look at the pretty little thing we just shipped back to Putin, Anna Chapman. I'm sure she wouldn't have been "gleaning" so much from the old men she learned to play if she were hooknosed and obese. Just a fact. Women know men can't get enough curvy-goodness and will say anything to get another look, much less a touch.

"...we need a hood ornament..."

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Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

The article itself left me cold, for all the reasons enumerated by others. The concept is one long recognized...male hormones will respond to women's sexuality, it sells. It has in every conceivable venue for many years.

I disagree about Avatar however. You don't think many men find this sexy? Not which parts are most visible..."exotically sexy" if you will, but still...

http://thm-a04.yimg.com/nimage/f5ec392ce6c0bc7e

or even check this out; it's sexy:

"Militant" women, if you will, want the physical attributes not to be the primary focus. It won't be, at least in my lifetime. The male libido is still too strong. Plus, bear in mind that a lot of women went to Avatar...male sexuality maybe not the main focus, but nonetheless...

Also bear in mind that men like action flicks, even when there's no female in them, that it was 3-D and unique.

ETA: Sorry about oversized .jpg--I fixed it.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 4:56 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by reenact12321:
Women have a very hard time developing the upper body strength men can,

OK, you've touched on a pet peeve here. Too many people will look at a muscular woman and say: "She's so not feminine!" then turn around and claim that woman aren't capable of being muscular. The limit doesn't come from what women are capable of. The limit is on your definition of "feminine."

No, woman can't get as strong as men, but sure as hell they can bulk up if they choose to. They simply don't choose to. Have you ever watched people at the gym? Men go to the big weights, women do cardio and light weights. They do not pursue big muscles, because that's not socially accepted as feminine beauty.

I followed a pretty basic weight-training routine for a few years, something any average guy would do. Hell yeah I bulked up. It wasn't hard.

I also navigate according to internal direction, I'm not nurturing, and I don't look overly soft. Yet, there's not a Y chromosome anywhere in me.

It all comes down to a discussion we had going elsewhere - don't be too quick to assume that genetics fully account for differences. Children undergo conditioning from the very moment they're born, and gender differences are clearly defined by everyone aspect of our society. It's hammered into their heads even they go into Toys R Us and Sally Sue is led to the slender Power Ranger in the pink aisle and Jimmy John is led to the muscular Power Ranger in the black aisle. How much is inherent, born-in preference, how much is social training?

OK, pet peeve dealt with. Now the agreement: sure there are differences, even if they are societal not genetic. Once we're grown up, we are what we are. I think you're right that differences should be acknowledged, in the sense that folks should be free to choose how they express their sexual identity. A backlash to the feminist movement these days is young woman who demand to be independent and strong, but also get their hair done and wear high heels. Woman have every right to be both. Go blonde and get a PhD. Shave your head and be a supermodel. This happens.

In fact, I think woman have more freedom in gender-expression than men. I can indulge my masculine side - play hockey, lift weights, wear pants, drink beer, etc, but later in the day I can spend an hour at the saloon and go out in a pink dress and false eyelashes. How often can men visit the gender extremes like that without being ridiculed and ostracized?

I wish they could. I remember seeing young men at a hippy gathering wearing long flowy skirts. I thought it was damned sexy. Or maybe it was the chests involved.

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 5:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

The blue chick was hot.

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 6:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mal4, good points. Every now and again it occurs to me how unfair it is that guys have to wear "suits". How much variety can you get in a suit??? For decades it's the only thing men are allowed to wear--one or another kind of "suit". It just seems wrong, given how many different kinds of clothing women can wear! So I'm with you.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 7:26 AM

MAL4PREZ

So true Niki! I pity the poor guys on hot days, with poor AC at work. They're covered head to toe, while I can wear sandals, a skirt and a sleeveless blouse. It's really unfair. I've tried to imagine a solution for them, but until society gets over the fear of men looking gay, the poor guys are stuck in the jackets and ties.

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 7:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Right on. How long, I wonder, have men been stuck in those?? I know WAY back when, men wore all kinds of fancy clothes, and I know by the turn of the Century men were in suits, but I don't know when the changeover happened to limit them to just suits.

I pity them, too; I saw so many walking around the Financial District in the City when I worked there...on the (rare) hot day there, it seemed so stupid. Although, come to think of it, the WOMEN "suits" (as we call them) were stuck in uncomfortable clothes there, too, so I guess in the corporate world, it's not much different for the higher ups, eh?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 7:56 AM

MAL4PREZ

OK, I don't want to waste a blog on this, but I need to vent and it relates to my post above. This weekend I had an encounter with a front door that's extremely poorly fitted and swelled with the heat. I told the owner and installer of said door that I barely got it open and couldn't at all get the deadbolt to go back, and he replied:

"could you go back and lock it? Maybe bring a guy with you??"

Rather than going with my initial reaction, which was

, I explained that I was generally capable of handling a sticky door thank you very much, and in any case I already had the big muscular moving man try forcing it.

So now he tells me:

"You hafta use the door handle itself to maneuver the door. Use your left hand to move the door around...and use your right hand to lock the deadbolt"

So not only am I weak, being female, but I'm stupid? Somebody please stop me from killing this man.

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 8:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Omigawd!

I'd have said a few things...

And I COULD go on a rant of my own about imbicilic males' attitudes toward women, but I'll spare everyone...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 8:15 AM

KANEMAN

This thread is great two blathering whores male bashing...Good stuff

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 8:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

So now he tells me:

"You hafta use the door handle itself to maneuver the door. Use your left hand to move the door around...and use your right hand to lock the deadbolt"

So not only am I weak, being female, but I'm stupid? Somebody please stop me from killing this man.

To say that with a straight face requires a man to have serious poker skills or to truly lack all but the most basic concept of self preservation.

Too funny.

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 8:28 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
To say that with a straight face requires a man to have serious poker skills or to truly lack all but the most basic concept of self preservation.

Too funny.

My fantasy poker-face reply that I didn't send because this man is going to be my landlord for at least a year:

"You see, you have to put in the coffee grounds and the water FIRST, then hit the start button.... oh, never mind."

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 9:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Nah, wouldn't have been good enough for me, Mal4, and he probably wouldn't have gotten it anyway. Anyone that obtuse and mysogynistic couldn't grasp satire or snideness if you dunked his head in a tub of it! Raptor's right; too lacking in brains for him to be more than a waste of oxygen, no sense wasting YOUR oxygen on.

Gonna be your landlord for a while yet, eh? "Yer a better man than I am, Gunga Din", I'd have been evicted for what I'd have said. Smart woman; being pissed off is better than being evicted.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 9:51 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Gonna be your landlord for a while yet, eh? "Yer a better man than I am, Gunga Din", I'd have been evicted for what I'd have said. Smart woman; being pissed off is better than being evicted.

Well, I did snark at him a little. Not too unkindly. I try to think of it as educating the ignorant.

Anyhow, what was this thread about? Oh, superheroes with big boobs. Three things:

1. It's not about being realistic, it's about selling tickets.

2. Male movie heroes do things that aren't possible, even with their bulky muscles and big swinging cods. Why shouldn't soft skinny little woman do these impossible things too? Special effects work on both genders.

(Which is another pet peeve: "You can't have a woman action hero because woman aren't strong enough to do that stuff." Oh, and everything Rambo did was "real"?)

3. I prefer female action heroes who look the part, ie have muscle tone and some sort of agility. But then, I'm a hetero female.

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 12:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA

*snicker*
I'm waiting for Byte to run out of patience and stop biting her tongue, cause that rant's gonna be popcorn-worthy.

I will have a go at the big bulky sterotype though, the former boyfriend of my ex, who I outright stole her from, is like, huge, we're talkin hagrid-huge, like six foot eight and Biiiiig.

And he's a total freakin wuss, which is how I wound up with his girl, not physically, just... not really a decisive kinda dude, not in the way you have to be to maintain a stable relationship, but just sayin size and bulk doesn't fit the sterotype neither, cause for all their size, mosta the Astaru I know still couldn't take me on bet, even as old and worn down as I am - being all of five foot six, heh.

And then I got MY ass handed to me by Wendy, who's a couple good inches short of five feet tall ?

Size and bulk do not necessarily equal strength, simply mass, and while mass can be damn useful (beign strong means shit when you got no freakin leverage) it's not by itself any indication of power or ability.

People think too much of appearances, most of the "heros" of history weren't exactly folk of imposing figure and physique, rather more the opposite - and yet look how badass in so many ways ole Ben Franklin was ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, August 1, 2010 3:51 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Ran into something sort of related to this in S. M. Sterling's latest book in the "Change" series. Premise - in the late 1990s, electricity and all high energy combustion processes (Diesel, explosives, steam turbines, etc.) stop working. Folks who can adapt do so but most die out. The survivors co-opt legends and styles of pre-Industrial Revolution life, including religions.

The Dunedain Rangers( think LOTR) Mary and Ritva are trying to teach Asgerd their style of fighting. Ritva explains. Mary does the sound effects.

Quote:

"Fighting is like opening a door. Now imagine there's a door here," the Ranger said.

She stuck the practice longsword in the snow and sketched a portal with her finger, and pointed to the features.

"Nice solid door. here's the hinges. Here's the handle and the latch. Now imagine a man trying to open the door. here's how he'd probably do it."

"Belch" Mary put in.

"Urrgghhh!" Ritva said.

Her hands went up and she gripped the sides of the imaginary door. Then she whipped her head forward.

"Bong!" Mary shouted.

Again.

"Bong!"

Again and then she stopped, scrunched one eye closed while rubbing her head and scratching her backside, then reversing the process.

"Belch," Mary put in. "Fart"

"Me smash! Arrrggghh! Me smash! Me smash!" Ritva bellowed, mock-guttural.

She mimed head-butting the door over and over, her features contorted into a mask of cross-eyed rage and lips slack as if she was drooling, then the eyes rolled up in her head and she fell backward into the snow.

"Now!", she said, bouncing back up and clapping her hands together, "Here's how a woman does it."

Ritva reached out, lifted the invisible latch - Mary supplied the click - turned the knob, stepped through, and closed the door behind her, with a final clunk from her sister.

"you see?"

"The Gods have made men and women differently. They have hammers. We have needles. If you want to fight well, you have to fight like a first-rate woman, not like a bad imitation of a man.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 2, 2010 7:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Being a priss, I"m not too fond of jokes about either sex; besides, male-bashing has become the fashion, and I didn't like it when it was female bashing, so by rights neither is fair.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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