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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Understanding Pakistan
Thursday, August 5, 2010 3:41 PM
KPO
Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.
Friday, August 6, 2010 8:55 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:India The struggle between Hindus and Muslims across India is a thousand years old. Muslim conquerors stormed down from today’s Iran and Afghanistan to build some of the world’s richest and most powerful empires. A tolerant and complex civilization grew up across the subcontinent; Hindus and Muslims sometimes fought but often they lived together reasonably well and, as Muslims remember it, this was a happy and prosperous time. British conquest of India destroyed the Islamic empires. Muslims (roughly 25% of the total population) lost the protection of powerful princes; the British sought to divide and rule the two communities, favoring now one and then then other. Muslims came to feel that the subcontinent sheltered two nations: one Hindu, one Muslim and that the differences between the two were so great that the Muslims needed their own state. Muslims insisted on and obtained the partition of British India into Hindu and Muslim states. Pakistan was the state for the Muslims. The British left India in a hurry as the subcontinent descended into chaos. Millions of Hindus and Muslims on the wrong side of the dividing line fled or were driven from their homes. Something like 14.5 million refugees were created initially with ultimately about 25 million people moving from one country to the other; somewhere between 200,000 and 1,000,000 people were killed in vicious communal riots whose memory still poisons the region today. British also allowed the rulers of the “princely states” to choose whether to join India or Pakistan; Kashmir’s ruler opted for India.. India won the war, and continues to hold most of the old princely state. In subsequent years, life in both countries, but especially in Pakistan, was dominated by the consequences of Partition. Settling refugees, periodic wars, the running sore of Kashmir: all keep the memories alive. Almost everything in Pakistan’s history revolves around the unequal struggle with India.. Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program is seen here as a triumph against the odds, and the nuclear arsenal is seen as the country’s last-ditch ace in the hole. Most Pakistanis are completely convinced that India is ceaselessly plotting Pakistan’s destruction and everything in Pakistani foreign policy boils down to a simple calculation about who is winning the zero-sum contest between these two states. Since 1989 American foreign policy has been shiftinh slowly towards a strategic partnership with India. From an American perspective, the rise of India towards superpower status is one of the best things happening in the world today. The rise of India means China’s rise is likely to be peaceful; sharing Asia with India and Japan means that China is less likely to try to dominate Asia. A peaceful China balanced by powerful neighbors is exactly what the United States hopes to see. The burgeoning US-India relationship frightens and horrifies Pakistan. The US takes India’s side in major controversies — blaming Pakistan for terrorism in Kashmir and India while doing nothing about India’s actions in Kashmir. Worst of all, the US is helping India gain access to nuclear materials and nuclear technologies while continuing to block Pakistan’s attempts in the field. India is the first major issue driving the US and Pakistan apart; Americans should not underestimate its importance. India is an all consuming obsession for many people here, and the presence of a larger, rapidly growing and richer neighbor just 18 miles from Lahore is something many Pakistanis can never forget. The perception that America is betraying its old and faithful Pakistani ally to benefit from India’s rise unites the military and those in the religious community who hate and fear Hinduism even as it alienates many patriotic Pakistanis who have no religious ax to grind. Afghanistan The second major issue shaping negative Pakistani feelings about the United States is almost as important. Pakistanis are on the front lines in the war on terror and Afghanistan is, literally, right on their doorstep. Pakistanis have no confidence in America’s regional strategy and they are convinced that American blunders have created a multifaceted disaster that has already cost Pakistan dear. Many Pakistanis believe that the US invasion of Afghanistan was a mistake in the first place; Mullah Omar offered to send Osama Bin Laden to stand trial in a third country, they say, and the US should have accepted that. More, they argue that American policy from the beginning was a disaster. We invaded in the wrong place at the wrong time; we refused to work with the people who could have helped us; we lost our focus on Afghanistan to turn toward Iraq (a war deeply hated by many Pakistanis). Now, inevitably, the disaster in Afghanistan has spread across the border into Pakistan. The US, Pakistanis say, has given only derisory military aid — $1.5 billion versus the estimated $40 billion the war has cost Pakistan. More, we are blaming the victim. The spread of radical violence in Pakistan is the direct result, they say, of the American war and blunders in Afghanistan. We even want them to dismantle their defenses against India to move forces to the Afghan frontier. US threats against Iran threaten Pakistan’s economic interests and political stability. Pakistanis darkly suspect that Indian money and agents are responsible for violence in troubled parts of Pakistan. Many Pakistanis believe that on top of everything else, the US is now getting ready either to cut and run in Afghanistan, leaving Pakistan with the thankless task of sweeping up, or, worse, handing northern Afghanistan to India. America and Islam The third problem is that many Pakistanis fear — and some are convinced — that Americans are anti-Muslim.. The relative silence in the US about the situation in Kashmir compared to American hyperventilation about other problems strikes many Pakistanis as further proof that Americans don’t care as much about human rights problems that Muslims experience. "Why, Pakistanis darkly wonder, do Hollywood stars fall all over themselves about poor Tibet, but Americans seem to glide right past the problems of Kashmir? Is this part of a global struggle against Islam?" Many Pakistanis think so. Islam stands at the core of Pakistan’s identity. Without Islam, there is no rationale for partition. Unlike many Muslim countries that have an ethnic as well as a religious identity), Pakistan’s ethnic groups have only Islam to hold them together. Take Islam away and there is no point to Pakistan. Unwelcome Influence Fourth, Pakistanis think Americans make all the big decisions here and that Pakistan’s institutions, including the military, have to knuckle under to American pressure. They sometimes talk about the “three As” that run Pakistan: Allah, the Army and America. Most Pakistanis seem convinced that the US prefers military to democratic governments in Pakistan, and that America’s alliance with Pakistan’s own corrupt civilian elites and unpopular military rulers is the main reason that these undesirable people have controlled the country for so long.
Friday, August 6, 2010 2:57 PM
Quote:Thanx KPO! I found that fascinating, and learned a lot.
Saturday, August 7, 2010 4:23 AM
KANEMAN
Saturday, August 7, 2010 4:51 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Saturday, August 7, 2010 12:09 PM
Saturday, August 7, 2010 12:24 PM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:The Afghan Taliban logistics officer laughs about the news he’s been hearing on his radio this past week. The story is that a Web site known as WikiLeaks has obtained and posted thousands of classified field reports from U.S. troops in Afghanistan, and hundreds of those reports mention the Americans’ suspicions that Pakistan is secretly assisting the Taliban—a charge that Pakistan has repeatedly and vehemently denied. “At least we have something in common with America,” the logistics officer says. “The Pakistanis are playing a double game with us, too.”
Sunday, August 8, 2010 6:07 AM
Quote:I guess I'm not sold on the idea that America as a nation is anything more than the sum of its parts: 300million strong English-founded nation with a (inherited) continent full of resources and a historical lucky streak... Perhaps if Canada or Australia were 300 million strong they would be better, more successful countries?
Sunday, August 8, 2010 11:26 AM
Sunday, August 8, 2010 4:27 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: How many Pakistanis are researching and trying to understand us ?
Sunday, August 8, 2010 8:03 PM
FREMDFIRMA
Monday, August 9, 2010 9:57 AM
Monday, August 9, 2010 10:26 AM
Quote:You want to waste time in understanding folks who continue to live with values from before the dark ages
Monday, August 9, 2010 10:34 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Wulf, they're HUMAN BEINGS! (By the way, they don't cut the noses and ears off women.)
Monday, August 9, 2010 10:56 AM
BYTEMITE
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: I'm for projecting freedom more than American power. We can't and shouldn't try to be everywhere, but the idea that all men are created equal seems to me a noble and basic concept. ( and yes, by 'men', I mean all PEOPLE ) You want to waste time in understanding folks who continue to live with values from before the dark ages, cutting off the noses and ears of women for some nonsensical perceived crime they committed against their families' honor... by all means, study away.
Monday, August 9, 2010 11:17 AM
Monday, August 9, 2010 11:24 AM
Monday, August 9, 2010 11:46 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Seems to me, that after the Independents lost the war, the Alliance left well enough alone, and those religious theocracies were kept in tact, wife killin' and arranged marriages, alike. So much for castin' the light of civilization on the border planets.
Monday, August 9, 2010 11:48 AM
Quote: Posted on Aug 9, 2010 | by Staff KABUL, Afghanistan (BP)--Ten workers affiliated with a Christian aid group were murdered in the rugged mountains of Afghanistan after providing eye care to people in a remote area of the country. International Assistance Mission, an openly Christian charity, has operated in Afghanistan for 44 years, negotiating with the Soviets, the mujahedeen government and then the Taliban for permission to continue its work assisting people in need of care. But on Aug. 5, only one member of a team survived an ambush by several men wielding guns. The Taliban claimed responsibility for the deaths of six Americans, one German, one Briton and two Afghans, though police have not ruled out an attack by thieves. A spokesman for the Southern Baptist International Mission Board confirmed that no IMB personnel were involved. The team, which included a 12th member, an Afghan, who earlier left the group to return home on his own, had set out for the remote Parun Valley of Nurestan province in three Land Rovers and then left their vehicles to trek 100 miles through the Hindu Kush mountains, The Washington Post reported. Once they had completed their work, they were traveling back through snow and rain when they were attacked. The survivor, a driver named Saifullah, said the gunmen lined up the team members and began to execute them. Saifullah's life was spared after he shouted allegiance to Allah, The Post said. "We are heartbroken by the loss of these heroic, generous people," Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said. "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this senseless act. We also condemn the Taliban's transparent attempt to justify the unjustifiable by making false accusations about their activities in Afghanistan." The Taliban said the medical team was handing out Bibles written in Dari, but Dirk Frans, executive director of the aid organization, denied the claim. "We're not here to proselytize, hand out Bibles or whatever," Frans said. "Our witness is in doing this work under extreme conditions, for people who otherwise have no chance for getting anything."
Monday, August 9, 2010 12:07 PM
Monday, August 9, 2010 1:14 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Wulf, they're HUMAN BEINGS! (By the way, they don't cut the noses and ears off women.)
Monday, August 9, 2010 1:16 PM
Monday, August 9, 2010 1:17 PM
Monday, August 9, 2010 1:20 PM
Monday, August 9, 2010 1:23 PM
Monday, August 9, 2010 1:37 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Or just dismiss everything by saying it's not worthy of study, or that you don't want to learn anything new.
Quote: WASHINGTON (AP) -- Fired by Speaker Newt Gingrich as House historian because she complained Nazi views weren't represented in a Holocaust course, Christina Jeffrey said Tuesday that allegations against her ``are slanderous and outrageous.''
Monday, August 9, 2010 1:44 PM
Monday, August 9, 2010 1:51 PM
Monday, August 9, 2010 7:01 PM
Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:48 AM
Quote:You want to waste time in understanding folks who continue to live with values from before the dark ages, cutting off the noses and ears of women for some nonsensical perceived crime they committed against their families' honor...
Tuesday, August 10, 2010 6:25 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Real tough to learn about folks who end up shootin' ya to death.... 10 Christian aid workers killed in Afghanistan mountains
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:35 AM
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:41 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:Pakistan floods could give Taliban time to regroup By NAHAL TOOSI, Associated Press Writer Nahal Toosi, Associated Press Writer – 9 mins ago ISLAMABAD – The floods ravaging Pakistan are generating fears that Taliban insurgents could regroup amid the chaos and destruction. The country's already anemic economy is expected to weaken, increasing the poverty that is a factor in the militancy wracking the country. One of the hardest hit regions is the northwest, the heartland of the Pakistan Taliban and other insurgent groups. Over the last two years, the army has carried out several offensives against militants there. The U.S. has welcomed the efforts — and launched drone strikes of its own — because of the threat the insurgents pose to Western troops across the border in Afghanistan. Now, thousands of those Pakistani soldiers have been tasked with flood relief and will likely be crucial in rebuilding bridges and roads once the worst floods in Pakistan's history have receded. Helicopters that once backed up troops in the tribal regions may have to be dispatched for flood relief.
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:06 AM
WULFENSTAR
http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:10 AM
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:16 AM
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:54 AM
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:00 PM
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:07 PM
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:07 PM
Quote:Sig, I didn't see the article as "poor Pakistan". I saw it as an explanation of how the PAKISTANIS feel and what THEY believe, not "fact". Just as some of us here have shown beliefs that have nothing to do with reality, Pakistanis have erroneous and prejudicial beliefs colored by history and left over from previous conflicts. That doesn't make them "poor", it's just an effort to understand how they come at the situation.
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:24 PM
DICKCHENEY
Wednesday, August 11, 2010 6:24 PM
Quote:We can produce our own oil, until we find a better source.
Friday, August 13, 2010 3:42 AM
Friday, August 13, 2010 4:25 AM
Friday, April 16, 2021 2:27 PM
JAYNEZTOWN
Tuesday, August 13, 2024 6:46 AM
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