Two party system..Tea party vs. Democrats by thenewimprovedkaneman

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I say:

Don't Tread On Me.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:12 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

It's not unusual for elements from a disaffected group to splinter off into a group with an even more intense viewpoint. I am simply dismayed to see the Tea Party coopted in this fashion. It was better and nobler before it became a Republican splinter cell. It does not even represent its own supposed values very well anymore, since ending war and military adventurism is no longer a key plank of their platform. One can not be simultaneously for fiscal conservatism and the occupation of foreign lands in an ambiguous, undeclared 'war on terror.' The former goal is killed by the latter.

And yet, look at the Tea Party planks:

1) Identify constitutionality of every new law: Require each bill to identify the specific provision of the Constitution that gives Congress the power to do what the bill does.

2) Reject emissions trading: Stop the "cap and trade" administrative approach used to control pollution by providing economic incentives for achieving reductions in the emissions of pollutants.

3) Demand a balanced federal budget: Begin the Constitutional amendment process to require a balanced budget with a two-thirds majority needed for any tax modification.

4) Simplify the tax system: Adopt a simple and fair single-rate tax system by scrapping the internal revenue code and replacing it with one that is no longer than 4,543 words – the length of the original Constitution.

5) Audit federal government agencies for constitutionality: Create a Blue Ribbon taskforce that engages in an audit of federal agencies and programs, assessing their Constitutionality, and identifying duplication, waste, ineffectiveness, and agencies and programs better left for the states or local authorities.

6) Limit annual growth in federal spending: Impose a statutory cap limiting the annual growth in total federal spending to the sum of the inflation rate plus the percentage of population growth.

7) Repeal the health care legislation passed on March 23, 2010: Defund, repeal and replace the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

8) Pass an 'All-of-the-Above' Energy Policy: Authorize the exploration of additional energy reserves to reduce American dependence on foreign energy sources and reduce regulatory barriers to all other forms of energy creation.

9) Reduce Earmarks: Place a moratorium on all earmarks until the budget is balanced, and then require a 2/3 majority to pass any earmark.

10) Reduce Taxes: Permanently repeal all recent tax increases, and extend permanently the George W. Bush temporary reductions in income tax, capital gains tax and estate taxes, currently scheduled to end in 2011.

Where is the reduction in military expenditure? Where is the ending of the wars? Where is a change in our interventionist foreign policy? Where is the demand that we not go to war unless Congress declares war? Where are these core values of the Ron Paul rEVOLution that spawned the Tea Party movement?

Gone. Because the Tea Party has been bought and paid for. They sold their souls so that they could go mainstream under the bootheels of the powers they claim to contest.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:37 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by thenewimprovedkaneman:
The November choice is clear. Choose between "Washington as usual types" or bring in political new comers with a fresh new outlook on government...

Whoa, hadda check the date, thought this was from 2008.

What in god's name could possibly make anyone think that this cycle's "fresh new outlook" is anything but salesmanship? And who the heck is gonna lead this movement? The Salesperson in Chief, Palin?

Welfare is 1% of the federal budget, while U.S. military spending is greater than all the military spending of the entire rest of the world combined. WHEN is "fiscal responsibility" gonna mean something other than "

the poor?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:47 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Yup, the choice is clear: You can vote for the Democrats, who are trying to undo the damage done by George W. Bush and his Republican boot-lickers...

... or you can vote for those exact same neo-con boot-lickers, the ones who brought you this mess in the first place.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by thenewimprovedkaneman:
The November choice is clear. Choose between "Washington as usual types" or bring in political new comers with a fresh new outlook on government...
Whoa, hadda check the date, thought this was from 2008.

What in god's name could possibly make anyone think that this cycle's "fresh new outlook" is anything but salesmanship? And who the heck is gonna lead this movement? The Salesperson in Chief, Palin?

Welfare is 1% of the federal budget, while U.S. military spending is greater than all the military spending of the entire rest of the world combined. WHEN is "fiscal responsibility" gonna mean something other than " the poor?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

By the way, that 1% of the federal budget that is welfare? 62% of that 1% goes to FARMERS. In fact, over $250,000 of it went to MICHELLE BACHMANN and her family, all while she decries "welfare", bailouts, and government handouts.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:58 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Yup, the choice is clear: You can vote for the Democrats, who are trying to undo the damage done..."

Hello,

The Democrats aren't doing a very good job. It's like choosing between getting stabbed or shot when you walk into the voting booth.

Touting the damage control of the Democrats is like advocating a knifing over a gunshot wound. Yeah, it might be better... But they both end in a pool of blood.

Get the Dems to shut off the war machine, and we'll talk.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:03 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I look forward to the day when the liberals/progressives AND neo-cons are no longer in a position of power.

When we are all Americans, monitoring a government that is strictly following the Constitution.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:44 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Then, like me, you despise the corruption of the Tea Party. You hate that they've sold out and abandoned key planks of fiscal conservatism and non-interventionism by dropping their push to end the wars and reduce the war machine.

You understand, as I do, that dropping these planks means that any claims to fiscal responsibility are a smokescreen designed to distract people from their same-old ways.

Good on ya, Wulf, for recognizing a party that has sold their foundations, and become nothing more than a mask worn by yesterday's overlords.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:55 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, you can look forward to that day, WulfWind, but you'll grow old and die before it comes, sorry.

As to Dems v. Tea Party:

That's a joke; much as you might like to believe it, it ain't so. It'll be Tea Partiers/Republicans v. Democrats, which means in some cases they'll split the ticket and lose.

The Tea Partiers who have won the Primaries are so far on the fringe that most people won't vote for them. They're hurting the Republiclans more than anything else. They made it clear early on that it was more important to them to win the primaries, to send their "message", than to win the general. Republicans have to be shitting in their pants over this development.

Wanna see some numbers? Of the 60+ Tea-Party endorsed candidates for the general, there is only decent polling data for five of them. Some primaries still have yet to be held, and some others don't even SHOW UP in polls. But If the election were held in March, all five of these Tea Party candidates would lose.

Quote:
Adam Kokesh, Republican Candidate for New Mexico 3rd Congressional District:
Ben Ray Lujan (D - Incumbent) 40%, Kokesh 32% (Public Policy Polling)

RJ Harris, Republican 4th District Oklahoma:
Tom Cole (R – Incumbent) 45%, Harris 33% (Persistence Consulting LLC)

Jake Towne, Independent 15th District, Pennsylvania:
Charlie Dent (R – Incumbent) 53%, John Callahan 27% (D), Towne 8% (I) (Tarrance Group)

Michael McPadden, Republican 5th District, Virginia:
Tom Perriello (D – Incumbent) 45%, McPadden 36% (Public Policy Polling)

Howard Houchen, Republican 2nd District, Oklahoma:
Dan Boren (D - Incumbent) 48%, Houchen 26%, Miki Booth (I) 7% (Talking Points Memo Poll Tracker)

How about these?

Quote:
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll:

"If the election for Congress were held today, would you vote for the Democratic candidate in your district, the Republican candidate in your district, or the Tea Party candidate in your district?" If unsure: "Well, if you had to vote, which way would you lean?"

Democrat 36%
Republican 24%
Tea Party 13%
Other (vol.) 3%
Unsure 24%

Quinnipiac University Poll:

"If the 2010 election for the U.S. House of Representatives were being held today, would you vote for the Republican candidate, the Democratic candidate, or the Tea Party candidate in your district?"

Democrat 36%
Republican 25%
Tea Party 15%
Other 1%
Unsure 22%

This is the most recent one I could find:

Quote:
6/8/2010: A new Washington Post/ABC News poll includes questions about the tea parties that have the nascent movement’s popularity slipping badly. Overall, since the last poll, the percentage of Americans who hold an unfavorable view of the movement has jumped from 39 percent to 50 percent. The leading edge of that has been a collapse in support from 18-29-year-olds. In March, they had a positive, 43-38 view of the tea parties. They’ve swung hard to a negative view, 27-60.

Favorable: 36%
Unfavorable: 50%

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/06/08/wapo-poll-tea-party-support-coll
apses-among-young-voters/

You can, no doubt, find opposing numbers; I just thought I'd give you a bit of data. Of course, if the Tea Party candidates are backed by the Republicans, it might be another story. But those Tea Party candidates I've seen are waaay too far out on the fringe to win, and the party itself is steadily losing in the approval ratings. You betcha.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:59 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hey, RivKaneZitJSKirkAnti: What's with the "new and improved" and what happened to your old handle? Obviously the new one isn't a sickpuppy or you'd hide it, so what gives? Not that I care, just curious.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 9:06 AM

MINCINGBEAST

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I look forward to the day when the liberals/progressives AND neo-cons are no longer in a position of power.

When we are all Americans, monitoring a government that is strictly following the Constitution.

I look forward to this day too, and won't laugh at the sentiment, even though I like laughing at myself. And even if there is no chance that Americans will ever agree on what it is to strictly follow the Constitution. The consensus is that anything that one feels is right is Constitutional, while anything distasteful isn't.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:29 AM

Hmmmm...

I suppose, in theory, it's possible that a reformed Republican Party ala the Tea Party could be a marginal improvement. But since most of the principals are just migrating Republicans, it doesn't sound likely.

As long as we constrain ourselves to the Democrats and Republicans we'll get a choice between turd sandwich or shit salad. I don't think we'll see any hope of significant change for the better until we get over the "lesser of two evils" fallacy.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:34 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

HEAR HEAR!

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:53 AM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I look forward to the day when the liberals/progressives AND neo-cons are no longer in a position of power.

Yeah, and I personally look forward to the day that the progressives in this country ditch the Democrats as a whole for their incompetence, spinelessness and hypocrisy and all rally around the Socialist Party USA to stage a real Socialist takeover (not a false one like all you RWA's seem to think is occurring right now). But see, the difference between you and me is that I actually see this world realistically and I know that will never ever happen in this country. So I am willing to compromise and hope that enough Democrats get elected that hold marginally similar viewpoints to my Socialist beliefs and this country can finally start progressing. And hopefully someday you will realize that the fantasy world you dream about is never ever going to happen either.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:56 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hear, hear Cuda. THAT's reality talking.

Mincing, I'm not laughing at the sentiment; I'm laughing, sadly, at Wulf's conviction that someday it can come true. I wish the same things, but I'm not going to delude myself that the Tea Party, threatening to "gather" my "armies" or a violent revolution will bring it about. Or actually, that it will ever come about.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:57 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So Cuda, you look forward to a civil war as well?

Cus, Ill be damned before I let my country become nationally socialistic.

Good to know.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:00 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

No, little one, he said "But see, the difference between you and me is that I actually see this world realistically and I know that will never ever happen in this country." I know you have difficulty grasping the difference between wishing something would happen and being convinced it WILL happen, however fantastical it might be, but Cude does. That's the difference, and it's a biggie.

By the way, why is it "good to know"? You gonna track him down and shoot him with your trusty six-gun? You think you're gonna point your "patriots" to his door and have them slaughter him? What difference does it make what ANY of us here wish for Ooops, make that rhetorical; I know what difference it makes to you, you think it can come true. Ah, well...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:06 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

No, Cuda was very clear about what they wanted.

And so let me be equally clear...

NO.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Hey, RivKaneZitJSKirkAnti: What's with the "new and improved" and what happened to your old handle? Obviously the new one isn't a sickpuppy or you'd hide it, so what gives? Not that I care, just curious.

It's funny... If someone wanted to totally tank RivKaneyKirkyJongZit's credibility, all they'd have to do is create such a sockpuppet and post nothing but polite, civil, respectful and well-reasoned discussions of the issues.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:11 AM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.

Yes, I was very clear about what I wanted. However, as I also said, I also know that it will never, ever happen. I will separate that point so it doesn't get lost for you.

The USA becoming a Socialist country will never, ever happen.

That clear enough for you? I have hopes and dreams for this country just like the rest of the citizens. The difference between me and many of those citizens is that I actually don't see my dreams and fantasies as anything as more than that.

I'm sure that you've had dreams and fantasies about becoming the lover of some famous, attractive person but did you actually ever really think that would happen? That's how I feel in regards to this country turning Socialist.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So Cuda, you look forward to a civil war as well?

Cus, Ill be damned before I let my country become nationally socialistic.

Good to know.

Is there anything in the Constitution that strictly forbids a socialist economic system?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:13 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wulf, it bears NO resemblance to what Cuda said. You LOOK FORWARD to the time, as in you believe it can come to pass. Cuda recognizes what he wants WILL NOT oome to pass...are you capable of understanding the difference?

He's got an opinion. You've got an opinion. His is no more "evil" than yours, tho' I'm sure you can't conceive of that.

But YOU think it'll happen..

YOU said "you look forward to a civil war as well?", clearly stating you assume he's looking toward a civil war to bring about the kind of government HE believes in.

That shows quite clearly that YOU are looking toward a civil war to bring about the kind of government YOU believe in.

Cuda clearly stated he knows what he'd like to see will never happen; he'd not looking forward to a civil war, he's dealing with reality.

Sigh...I know, that's something you can't get your brain around...but that's YOUR problem, not Cuda's.

Ooops, sorry Cuda...I was typing this as you posted. I know you don't need defending, I just find WulfWind frustrating sometimes...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cuda77:
... So I am willing to compromise and hope that enough Democrats get elected that hold marginally similar viewpoints to my Socialist beliefs and this country can finally start progressing. And hopefully someday you will realize that the fantasy world you dream about is never ever going to happen either.

How about the fantasy of a productive and humane compromise between the free-market and socialist ideals? See, that's what I find so frustrating about this two-party rut we're in. We basically get the worst of both worlds. The "compromise" of voting for Republicans or Democrats may seem like an attempt to pull things toward one ideal or the other, but in reality, it's just a vote for corporatism. The powers-that-be happily play one side against the other while their dominance only grows.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:32 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by thenewimprovedkaneman:
The November choice is clear. Choose between "Washington as usual types" or bring in political new comers with a fresh new outlook on government...
Whoa, hadda check the date, thought this was from 2008.

What in god's name could possibly make anyone think that this cycle's "fresh new outlook" is anything but salesmanship? And who the heck is gonna lead this movement? The Salesperson in Chief, Palin?

Welfare is 1% of the federal budget, while U.S. military spending is greater than all the military spending of the entire rest of the world combined. WHEN is "fiscal responsibility" gonna mean something other than " the poor?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

THE HORDES OF PEOPLE IN THE STREET.......that is what changes now from the beginning...2012 will be even more tea party-ish

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:37 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Hey, RivKaneZitJSKirkAnti: What's with the "new and improved" and what happened to your old handle? Obviously the new one isn't a sickpuppy or you'd hide it, so what gives? Not that I care, just curious.

It's funny... If someone wanted to totally tank RivKaneyKirkyJongZit's credibility, all they'd have to do is create such a sockpuppet and post nothing but polite, civil, respectful and well-reasoned discussions of the issues.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

It is a joke. I am going to try not to tell you you are a cock sandwich with this sockpuppett...actually it is not me, however I can't tell this person to eat shit cause I agree...

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:47 PM

Quote:
Hey, RivKaneZitJSKirkAnti: What's with the "new and improved" and what happened to your old handle? Obviously the new one isn't a sickpuppy or you'd hide it, so what gives? Not that I care, just curious.

Maybe Kaneman wants to try for a fresh start, or at least have an account for debate and conversation which people don't immediately attack and which she doesn't use to hit back.

Either way, could be interesting. Let her try it, I think.

Or she lost her log-on information, which I doubt, but it's not impossible.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:57 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Serge,I completely agree. Until something changes, however, I'll do as Cuda does...

Byte, Mike has good reason to believe JS=River. Beyond that, I cannot say..

I didn't think JS was a sickpuppy either, but now I think it was pretty good guess. Sigh...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:20 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Sarge, the Mondragon MCC seems to have managed something of the sort, you might look into it.

Oh, and I feel the need to point out Wulfies "will of the people" means HIS will, cause the instant "the people" choose something HE doesn't want, he starts threatening violence like a petulant child.

Did you ever think even for a minute, of the amount of shit I put up with as an Anarchist simply because it makes the rest of my community happy, even though I find it personally grating ?

But hey, they put up with my disbelief, even hatred, of most of their religions, and despite our differences, we do ok - cause of this little thing called TOLERANCE.

You, on the other hand, there's no give and take, it's all take, like we fucking owe you or something, and frankly I don't owe you SHIT - and if it's gonna be "your way" or violence, well, let's get ON with it, shall we ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Serge,I completely agree. Until something changes, however, I'll do as Cuda does...

What change are you waiting on? I contend that the very change that we need is a change of heart, a change in our acceptance of the lesser of two evils mentality and a stubborn refusal to continue feeding the beast.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:53 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Hey, RivKaneZitJSKirkAnti: What's with the "new and improved" and what happened to your old handle? Obviously the new one isn't a sickpuppy or you'd hide it, so what gives? Not that I care, just curious.

Maybe Kaneman wants to try for a fresh start, or at least have an account for debate and conversation which people don't immediately attack and which she doesn't use to hit back.

Either way, could be interesting. Let her try it, I think.

Or she lost her log-on information, which I doubt, but it's not impossible.

Byte, please I would never want a fresh start that would mean I was wrong....Let this person go at it(I think it is wulf)... when it goes against my libertarian views I will smack this wulf down....

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Serge,I completely agree. Until something changes, however, I'll do as Cuda does...

What change are you waiting on? I contend that the very change that we need is a change of heart, a change in our acceptance of the lesser of two evils mentality and a stubborn refusal to continue feeding the beast.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

That's a beautiful dream and a great thing to chase after. I find myself hoping for the same every election cycle, and then after the primaries all shake out I end up in the general election having to grimace and pull the lesser of the two levers... :(

But we have to keep trying, and we have to dream, because if you don't have dreams, you'll have nightmares.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
... I end up in the general election having to grimace and pull the lesser of the two levers... :(

Why do you feel you have to do this?

I suppose I can guess. The likely reason (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you think there is a significant difference between the two parties, and that - as cuda suggested - you think one side will pull things in your direction, if only incrementally. Each side seems to be thinking this way. So each cycle we vote for the party that promises us a little of what we want and pretty much guarantees us a lot of what we don't want.

One problem with this is that, as we swap back and forth between parties, neither side really gets very far with the things we want. And the bad crap, that the mutually corrupt parties are perpetually loading up on, never really goes away. We're left with a neverending spiral of crappy government and only fleeting glimpses of anything decent.

The other big issue I have with the lesser-of-two-evils thinking is that it fundamentally sabotages democracy. The point of voting isn't, entirely, to select a leader. A large part of it (and the most important part, in my opinion) is to get an accurate reading on the values of the nation. If most of us are voting "strategically", instead of endorsing the candidates who most closely represent our views, that reading is no longer accurate and the vote is a fraud.

I'm old enough to remember hearing stories of how democracy worked in Soviet Russia. Supposedly, races would rarely have more than one viable (read "party-endorsed") candidate. I always wondered why they bothered voting at all. Now I wonder the same thing about our version of democracy.

The version of compromise offered up by the major parties is idiotic. It reminds me of a steak lover and a vegetarian deciding on what to have for dinner. They both are determined that everyone must eat the same thing, but neither can tolerate the fare the other is recommending. So the compromise and decide that everyone will eat rat poison.

Lame parables aside, I'm going to continue to look for, and vote for, candidates who seem ready for real compromise. Ron Paul was flawed in many ways, but what really caught my attention was a speech he gave repeatedly during the campaign. He acknowledged that, as a libertarian, he wasn't in favor of large welfare programs. But there are far worse things - like our imperialistic foreign policy and insane military budget. He proposed that we eliminate half our military bases around the world, drastically reducing our military spending and use the savings to provide health care and other necessities to the poor.

That's the kind of compromise we need. Whether health care should be a public service or not, for example, is a debate with decent arguments on both sides. And both sides need to realize that either option could be implemented well. But the fear-driven, lesser-of-two-evils voting strategy elects a congress that creates a "compromise" that serves us up on a platter to the insurance industry as virtual slaves - and doesn't do a damned thing to address the real problems with health care.

The most promising thing I've seen in politics in the last thirty years, was Ralph Nader and Ron Paul joining forces to support the third party vote. They identified four key issues that rose above ideology and came together to promote sane solutions. They both realize that, despite their fundamental ideological differences, their shared desire to see real change was far more important than the right/left puppet show held up by the major parties.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:24 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

But who is our third option now, Sergeant? I haven't seen one since 2007-2008.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

But who is our third option now, Sergeant? I haven't seen one since 2007-2008.

--Anthony

To be honest, I've been out of the loop for the past year or so politically. I've only recently been looking around again. But I'll write in someone I know personally before I'll endorse a party I fundamentally disagree with.

And I believe not voting at all is a viable, responsible option. It has a greater positive impact on our future than voting in a way that doesn't accurately reflect your values.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:41 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello...

Hmm.

If people don't vote, then they haven't picked a side.

If they haven't picked a side, then there's no kneejerk mindless defense process.

If there's no kneejerk mindless defense process, then the political game- designed to keep people in opposition to one another-

Has Failed.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:47 PM

Interesting.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:46 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

I don't think you can't fight corporatism unless you also fight consumerism. Even in a down economy it's hard to find a parking spot at the mega mall.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

Byte, please I would never want a fresh start that would mean I was wrong....Let this person go at it(I think it is wulf)... when it goes against my libertarian views I will smack this wulf down....

A fresh start doesn't mean admitting anything if some form of the original name is kept. Keeping the name and adding a few adjectives suggests wanting recognition, but is also indicative of trying a new communicative strategy.

Whether it's you or someone else, we'll see how it pans out.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:10 AM

Sergeant, Kwicko, Anthony, I kinda like where this thread is going.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:13 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, RivKaneZitJSKirkAnti: What's with the "new and improved" and what happened to your old handle? Obviously the new one isn't a sickpuppy or you'd hide it, so what gives? Not that I care, just curious.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe Kaneman wants to try for a fresh start, or at least have an account for debate and conversation which people don't immediately attack and which she doesn't use to hit back.

"Either way, could be interesting. Let her try it, I think.

Or she lost her log-on information, which I doubt, but it's not impossible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Byte, please I would never want a fresh start that would mean I was wrong....Let this person go at it(I think it is wulf)... when it goes against my libertarian views I will smack this wulf down....""

Stop dragging me into things.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:30 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I contend that the very change that we need is a change of heart, a change in our acceptance of the lesser of two evils mentality and a stubborn refusal to continue feeding the beast.

How do you propose going about this? You’re right in that what we have doesn’t work all that well. On the other hand, our options are to vote for a third party which has no chance of getting into office or any power, or not voting. I don’t see those as viable options. I DO vote for the “lesser of two evils” and hope that as a result LESS EVIL is done...that’s the best I can do at this point. And it has a certain amount of validity, as far as what I believe in goes.

Quote:
If most of us are voting "strategically", instead of endorsing the candidates who most closely represent our views, that reading is no longer accurate and the vote is a fraud.

That confuses me. Could you clarify what you mean by “strategically”? I DO endorse the candidate who most closely represent my views, so I don’t know what the other one means.

For me, not voting isn’t acceptable. This is the way the system works at this point; it’s still an experiment. If I back out of the experiment, I’m not contributing at all, and that’s unacceptable. I DO find positive things in the side I vote for, and throwing away my vote by either rnot voting or voting for someone with no chance of winning is something I won’t do. IF something came along that had a chance and I thought was better than what we’ve got, I’d vote for it. The Tea Party represents the antithesis of that, and yes, I’ll vote Democratic because I think they would make things FAR WORSE if they got power. They are definitely not realists and want to shape the country into their narrow view.

I look at our pathetic turnout and am ashamed, especially when I compare it with the rest of the world. Doesn’t matter how few people vote; one or the other party wins anyway, so what’s gained? Nobody’s going to do anything but lament the poor voter turnout, it won’t change anything. Yes, other countries don’t have the history of democracy that we do, so are probably more enthusiastic and less disenfranchised. That’s not an excuse.

Give me something to vote “for” and I will. But not until it’s feasible; otherwise, I’m just not participating and letting others decide for me. That’s not acceptable to me. We need someone charismatic (since that’s largely what people vote for) with good ideas...I don’t see that coming down the pike and, at my age, don’t expect to.

If we have the revolution Wulf so badly wants, what do we end up with? We’ve proven the experiment doesn’t work, that’s all, and if you think it’s bad NOW, I sincerely hope you don’t get to see what it would be like WITHOUT democracy! JMHO

Hey Wulf! I thought you WANTED to be/have a sickpuppet...doesn't someone claiming you might be make you HAPPY?? It's a poor attempt, I'll admit, and that may be why she thought it was you (given, according to you, you haven't much experience with sickpuppetry).

Admittedly, if it wasn't them, whoever it is made a very clumsy and worthless attempt. Wanna bet we never see 'em again? Now, if they'd tried "riverLove" (i.e., changed case) or "Kaneman is tagged"--and changed a number or something, someone might have bougth it. Not that it's important...just something small that flew by and made me momentarily curious...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:38 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Every experiment is a success if it yields data.

The premise is not an abandonment of democracy, but a change in the manifestation we have chosen.

I think we know very well what we get under the current set of variables. Water can only be proven to be wet so many times.

It may not be unwise to change the variables, and see if we can yield new results.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:08 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"otherwise, I’m just not participating and letting others decide for me."

Hello,

If someone offered you death by hanging, death by decapitation, or death by electrocution...

Would you cheerfully choose one and be proud of the fact that you got your vote?

What if the common theme (death) is the real choice, and it has been made for you?

Does it then matter whether you choose Kang or Kodos for President? Choosing something you don't want slightly less than something else you don't want may not be making a choice at all.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:40 AM

Also, Niki, you've lived in a commune. Why does voting in a national election have to have any effect on how you live, or how you interact with people, or what choices they make or you make?

Does it even? I have doubts.

Judging by your decision to go to the gulf to help clean-up, you have both time and willingness to make things better on your own, without having to resort to a middleman who can do things big scale, but also do a lot of things you DON'T like. So why support the middleman, why even VOTE for the middleman?

Free yourself from the system, and if your lack of voting furthers causes you don't agree with, free the victims of those causes from the system as well. Then you will have a local scale community which represents all the values you want it to represent.

This strikes me as a better option than voting for the lesser of two evils. It doesn't let those evils through to still wreck havoc on everything.

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 7:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I don't think you can't fight corporatism unless you also fight consumerism. Even in a down economy it's hard to find a parking spot at the mega mall.

I'm all in favor of fighting consumerism. It's ugly business. But it's not related to what I mean by "corporatism".

Corporatism is a style of government where the main role of the state is to divvy up favors amongst large, organized power blocks. In the US these "corporations" are usually publicly held businesses, but they can also be unions, advocacy groups, political parties, or any "interest" that has lots of money and influence to throw around.

The goal of leadership in such a state changes. Rather that striving to satisfy the egalitarian interests of the people as a whole, governing becomes a game to balance the competing interests of the various "corporations", largely be granting favors in exchange for political support.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 8:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
How do you propose going about this? You’re right in that what we have doesn’t work all that well. On the other hand, our options are to vote for a third party which has no chance of getting into office or any power, or not voting. I don’t see those as viable options. I DO vote for the “lesser of two evils” and hope that as a result LESS EVIL is done...that’s the best I can do at this point.

I don't think it is. I think not voting at all is significantly better. Voting for a third party candidate (even if they have no chance of winning) is better still. As more and more of us start doing that, we'll begin to see better options come forward.

See, by refusing to endorse either of the status quo parties, you send a clear message. And on a 'per vote' level, it's a much more powerful message that simply voting for a "lesser". Doubling or tripling the third party vote wouldn't be THAT hard, and it would have a relatively large impact on the majors. Throwing your vote in with the millions voting for the Democrats or Republicans will barely register - and will only make it more likely that we'll get more of the same.

Quote:
Could you clarify what you mean by “strategically”? I DO endorse the candidate who most closely represent my views, so I don’t know what the other one means.

If that's what you're doing, then you're not voting 'strategically' and I have no complaint. I'm referring to the people who might say - "yeah, I'd much rather see Kucinich (or Nadar, or Paul etc...) win, but they don't have a chance, so I'm voting for the person who's slightly less objectionable than some other candidate I don't like."

Quote:
... throwing away my vote by either not voting or voting for someone with no chance of winning is something I won’t do.

To me, this is at the core of what's wrong with our system, or rather, the way we're using our system. It's especially frustrating as a supporter of third party candidates, because we routinely hear people confide that they actually prefer the third party candidate but won't for them because they "have no chance of winning". That's totally a self fulfilling prophecy, and often, if you add up the votes of all the people who are refusing to vote for their actual favorites, they actually DO have a chance of winning.

Quote:
until it’s feasible; otherwise, I’m just not participating and letting others decide for me.

I think this is a misconception - one that's undercutting democracy. The point of voting isn't to "decide" anything. It's to express your values and opinion as honestly as you can. I actually sort of like the concept of the Electoral College for that reason. They are the ones who "decide", and they use voting as an opinion poll to guide their decision. It might seem like a meaningless distinction, since they traditionally follow the majority opinion, but I think it highlights an important aspect in what's going on.

And not voting is expressing an opinion every bit as much as voting. As I've said, I think finding someone to vote for is the better option, but if you really can't endorsing anyone running, and you don't feel like writing someone in, not voting sends that message. As more and more people don't vote, potential candidates notice, and begin to wonder how they can attract that growing pool of untapped votes.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

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Thursday, August 12, 2010 8:24 AM