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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
As custom w/ those like minded to yourself, you offered no attempt to discuss or debate any particular point, you just mocked, and dismissed my views. Never once contemplating that most Americans do feel this way, and would come to a similar conclusion if presented the facts.

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Okay, AURaptor,

You want some debate? Could you start by telling me how you get around the 1st Amendment to the Constitution on this one?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
As custom w/ those like minded to yourself, you offered no attempt to discuss or debate any particular point, you just mocked, and dismissed my views. Never once contemplating that most Americans do feel this way, and would come to a similar conclusion if presented the facts.

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Okay, AURaptor,

You want some debate? Could you start by telling me how you get around the 1st Amendment to the Constitution on this one?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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n 1776, John Adams published "Thoughts on Government," in which he praises the Islamic prophet Mahomet (Mohammed) as a "sober inquirer after truth" alongside Confucius, Zoroaster, Socrates, and other "pagan and Christian" thinkers.

In 1785, George Washington stated a willingness to hire "Mahometans," as well as people of any nation or religion, to work on his private estate at Mount Vernon if they were "good workmen."[23]

In 1790, the South Carolina legislative body granted special legal status to a community of Moroccans, twelve years after the Sultan of Morocco became the first foreign head of state to formally recognize the United States.[24] In 1796, then president John Adams signed a treaty declaring the United States had no "character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen".[25]

In his autobiography, published in 1791, Benjamin Franklin stated that he "did not disapprove" of a meeting place in Pennsylvania that was designed to accommodate preachers of all religions. Franklin wrote that "even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service."[26]

Thomas Jefferson defended religious freedom in America including those of Muslims. Jefferson explicitly mentioned Muslims when writing about the movement for religious freedom in Virginia. In his autobiography Jefferson wrote "[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom... was finally passed,... a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word 'Jesus Christ,' so that it should read 'a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.' The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination."[27] While President, Jefferson also participated in an iftar with the Ambassador of Tunisia in 1809.[28]

Alexander Russell Webb is considered by historians to be the earliest prominent Anglo-American convert to Islam in 1888. In 1893 he was the only person representing Islam at the first Parliament for the World's Religions.[20]

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Originally posted by Riverlove:
The terrorist organization Hamas fully supports building the mosque near ground zero.
So nice to see the President of the United States in full agreement with Hamas. I'm sure they talk all the time about the best ways to destroy America.


Hamas leader: Ground zero mosque must be built
NEW YORK – AP August 16, 2010
A Hamas leader says Muslims "have to build" a mosque near ground zero.

Mahmoud al-Zahar said Muslims "have to build everywhere" so that followers can pray, just like Christians and Jews build their places of worship.

Al-Zahar spoke Sunday on "Aaron Klein Investigative Radio" on WABC-AM. He is a co-founder of Hamas and its chief on the Gaza Strip.

Sen. Chuck Schumer says Al-Zahar's comments don't carry any weight because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Schumer hasn't taken a stand on the mosque.

Rep. Peter King, who opposes the mosque, says he won't respond to Hamas.

The mosque is a project of the Cordoba Initiative, an advocacy group that promotes improved relations between Islam and the West. It didn't respond to Al-Zahar's comments.

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Reported in the Assinine Press:

Earlier today, a taped message was received from Osama bin Laden, and dropped off at A.P. offices in Kabul. Specialists have confirmed that the tape appears to be legitimate. In the tape, the wanted terrorist leader comments that 'the sky is blue.' This comment stirred up considerable controversy in the U.S. amongst conservative personalities, when President Obama was heard to acknowledge, "Yes, the sky is blue," when queried at a news conference.

"What kind of a President do we have," railed Rush Limbaugh on his popular syndicated radio show, "when he aligns himself with the philosophy of terrorists?"

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Obama didn't "backtrack" from anything. Only a complete idiot would think he did.

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"Just to be clear, the president is not backing off in any way from the comments he made last night."

Said Obama spokesman Bill Burton.

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All early reports stated that Obama was backtracking.

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Obama's spokesman says he isn't backtracking. Obama himself hasn't taken anything back, because on this issue, he's 100% right.

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Debra Burlingame: 9/11 Families Stunned by President’s Support of Mosque at Ground Zero

by EDITORS on AUGUST 14, 2010
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America
Statement of Debra Burlingame, Co-founder of 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America, in Response to President Obama’s Remarks about the Ground Zero Mosque

9/11 Families Stunned by Presidents Support of Mosque at Ground Zero

New York, NY, Aug. 14 — Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America’s heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see. Since that dark day, Americans have been asked to bear the burden of defending those values, again and again and again. Now this president declares that the victims of 9/11 and their families must bear another burden. We must stand silent at the last place in America where 9/11 is still remembered with reverence or risk being called religious bigots.

Muslims have worshipped in New York without incident both before and after the attacks of 9/11. This controversy is not about religious freedom. 9/11 was more than a “deeply traumatic event,” it was an act of war. Building a 15-story mosque at Ground Zero is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah. Those who continue to target and kill American civilians and U.S. troops will see it as a symbol of their historic progress at the site of their most bloody victory. Demolishing a building that was damaged by wreckage from one of the hijacked planes in order to build a mosque and Islamic Center will further energize those who regard it as a ratification of their violent and divinely ordered mission: the spread of shariah law and its subjugation of all free people, including secular Muslims who come to this country fleeing that medieval ideology, which destroys lives and crushes the human spirit.

We are stunned by the president’s willingness to disregard what Americans should be proud of: our enduring generosity to others on 9/11–a day when human decency triumphed over human depravity. On that day, when 3,000 of our fellow human beings were killed in barbaric act of raw religious intolerance unlike this country had ever seen, Americans did not turn outward with hatred or violence, we turned to each other, armed with nothing more than American flags and countless acts of kindness. In a breathtakingly inappropriate setting, the president has chosen to declare our memories of 9/11 obsolete and the sanctity of Ground Zero finished. No one who has lived this history and felt the sting of our country’s loss that day can truly believe that putting our families through more wrenching heartache can be an act of peace.

We will honor the memory of our loved ones. We will protect our children, whose lives will never be the same. We will not stand silent.

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
By the same token then, you would be ok with building a statue honoring Hirohito at Pearl Harbor?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Niki

It's not about freedom of religion, and no matter how many times you or the Obama sycophants try to twist the discussion that way will make one iota of difference.

It's about Obama supporting the Mosque at Ground Zero, and nothing else.

Straight up.

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Never argued for or against it... just stating that building a stature to Hirohito at Pearle harbor is pretty much the smae thing as building a mosque at Ground Zero...

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Very correct Anthony.

Its in poor taste... but hey, if they own the property, have a right to do it.

How I wonder if you would say the same thing if the Klan built a Hall, on land they owned, where they used to hang blacks?

If you can do that... then more power to you, and you would be equally correct.

If you own the land, its yours, to do with as you see fit.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"An ACCURATE comparison would be if someone was proposing the building of a statue of Osama Bin Laden at Ground Zero."

Hello,

And even so? If it's their land to use, they can put a statue of anyone they like there. And a Patriot would defend that right, also.

Whatever the most vomitous, awful, disgusting gesture is. Whatever the most repellant structure. It really doesn't matter what nightmare anyone conjures up for comparison. Religion and Speech are both protected, so no matter what horror is summoned up from the wicked depths of our imaginations, someone has the Right to do it.

And if I refuse to comment on the Wisdom of such forms of speech, that diminishes neither the right nor my defense of it.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Saying you're not backtracking after you've backtracked doesn't make it so.

He backtracked. He got caught, and now is sticking to his guns, supporting a very poor idea to place a Mosque near the WTC site.

Even Dems are seeing what a blunder this President is making here.

Funny, you don't.

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Text of President Obama's remarks at the White House Iftar dinner on Ramadan
Good evening. Welcome to the White House. To you, to Muslim Americans across our country, and to more than one billion Muslims around the world, I extend my best wishes on this holy month. Ramadan Kareem. I want to welcome members of the diplomatic corps; members of my administration; and Members of Congress, including Rush Holt, John Conyers, and Andre Carson, who is one of two Muslim American Members of Congress, along with Keith Ellison.

Here at the White House, we have a tradition of hosting iftars that goes back several years, just as we host Christmas parties, seders, and Diwali celebrations. These events celebrate the role of faith in the lives of the American people. They remind us of the basic truth that we are all children of God, and we all draw strength and a sense of purpose from our beliefs.
These events are also an affirmation of who we are as Americans. Our Founders understood that the best way to honor the place of faith in the lives of our people was to protect their freedom to practice religion. In the....

...Virginia Act for Establishing Religion Freedom, Thomas Jefferson wrote that “all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion.” The First Amendment of our Constitution established the freedom of religion as the law of the land. And that right has been upheld ever since.

Indeed, over the course of our history, religion has flourished within our borders precisely because Americans have had the right to worship as they choose – including the right to believe in no religion at all. And it is a testament to the wisdom of our Founders that America remains deeply religious – a nation where the ability of peoples of different faiths to coexist peacefully and with mutual respect for one another stands in contrast to the religious conflict that persists around the globe.

That is not to say that religion is without controversy. Recently, attention has been focused on the construction of mosques in certain communities – particularly in New York. Now, we must all recognize and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of lower Manhattan. The 9/11 attacks were a deeply traumatic event for our country. The pain and suffering experienced by those who lost loved ones is unimaginable. So I understand the emotions that this issue engenders. Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground.

But let me be clear: as a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country. That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are. The writ of our Founders must endure.

We must never forget those who we lost so tragically on 9/11, and we must always honor those who have led our response to that attack – from the firefighters who charged up smoke-filled staircases, to our troops who are serving in Afghanistan today. And let us always remember who we are fighting against, and what we are fighting for. Our enemies respect no freedom of religion. Al Qaeda’s cause is not Islam – it is a gross distortion of Islam. These are not religious leaders – these are terrorists who murder innocent men, women and children. In fact, al Qaeda has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion – and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11.

That is who we are fighting against. And the reason that we will win this fight is not simply the strength of our arms – it is the strength of our values. The democracy that we uphold. The freedoms that we cherish. The laws that we apply without regard to race or religion; wealth or status. Our capacity to show not merely tolerance, but respect to those who are different from us – a way of life that stands in stark contrast to the nihilism of those who attacked us on that September morning, and who continue to plot against us today.

In my inaugural address, I said that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus — and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth. That diversity can bring difficult debates. Indeed, past eras have seen controversies about the construction of synagogues or Catholic churches. But time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, stay true to our core values, and emerge stronger for it. So it must be – and will be – today.

Tonight, we are reminded that Ramadan is a celebration of a faith known for great diversity. And Ramadan is a reminder that Islam has always been part of America. The first Muslim ambassador to the United States, from Tunisia, was hosted by President Jefferson, who arranged a sunset dinner for his guest because it was Ramadan—making it the first known iftar at the White House, more than 200 years ago.

Like so many other immigrants, generations of Muslims came here to forge their future. They became farmers and merchants, worked in mills and factories, and helped lay the railroads. They helped build America. They founded the first Islamic center in New York City in the 1890s. They built America’s first mosque on the prairie of North Dakota. And perhaps the oldest surviving mosque in America—still in use today—is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Today, our nation is strengthened by millions of Muslim Americans. They excel in every walk of life. Muslim American communities—including mosques in all fifty states—also serve their neighbors. Muslim Americans protect our communities as police, firefighters and first responders. Muslim American clerics have spoken out against terror and extremism, reaffirming that Islam teaches that one must save human life, not take it. And Muslim Americans serve with honor in our military. At next week’s iftar at the Pentagon, tribute will be paid to three soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq and now rest among the heroes of Arlington National Cemetery.

These Muslim Americans died for the security that we depend upon, and the freedoms that we cherish. They are part of an unbroken line of Americans that stretches back to our Founding; Americans of all faiths who have served and sacrificed to extend the promise of America to new generations, and to ensure that what is exceptional about America is protected – our commitment to stay true to our core values, and our ability to perfect our union.

For in the end, we remain “one nation, under God, indivisible.” And we can only achieve “liberty and justice for all” if we live by that one rule at the heart of every religion, including Islam—that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
Thank you all for being here, and I wish you a blessed Ramadan. And with that, let’s eat.

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Did it never occur to them that not all muslims are alike, no more than christians or jews ?
That men are men and all are fools, but not about the same things ?

That maybe this is islams rebuke against the monsters who had done this thing ?

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See, and I hate to sound cold, but the "pain" anyone might feel is ridiculous. *Islam* did not carry out 9-11.

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The more that Americans can see progressive Moslims like the ones building this community center, the sooner we as a nation will get over this vilification of an entire religion due to the acts of a fringe few.

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Originally posted by kpo:

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See, and I hate to sound cold, but the "pain" anyone might feel is ridiculous. *Islam* did not carry out 9-11.

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Who said pain, or grief, was a rational thing? But I still think it ought to be respected.

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The events of 9-11 had an *association* with Islam, and that is enough.

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The wound will always be sensitive, as long as we sensitize it. By your own words, even half a century isn't really enough, nor even THREE GENERATIONS is enough for a German peacekeeper to perform a United Nations mission in Jerusalem.

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I'm not interested in protecting a wound by perpetuating irrational fear and hatred.

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Originally posted by mal4prez:

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Originally posted by kpo:

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See, and I hate to sound cold, but the "pain" anyone might feel is ridiculous. *Islam* did not carry out 9-11.

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Who said pain, or grief, was a rational thing? But I still think it ought to be respected.

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The institutionalization of biases, blind hatred, and scapegoats lead only one place. We're already half there and hundreds of thousands of innocent people have died because of it.

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The events of 9-11 had an *association* with Islam, and that is enough.

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My god, are you serious? If we ruled out anyone who had any association with something unpleasant, the world would be completely empty.

Now, how about all those people who lost loved ones on 9/11 and are for this community center? Do they mean nothing to you? Because such people have been supporting it from the start. (Niki posted references about this.) The ones I've heard talking the loudest against this are NOT 9/11 victims, but politicians looking to push a policy of hate. They are the ones using the 9/11 association to manipulate us and push their own agenda. They are the ones causing the pain.

And how about the people building the community center? How about their stated message of unification and bridge-building? How about the fact that the lead guy worked in anti-terrorism for our govt? Why can't we focus on that for a change, instead of giving in to blind bias and hate and persecution of muslims for the next "something like 50 years"? How will it go away in that time if we won't even try now?

If we were truly the country we claim to be, we wouldn't only support this community center, we'd build something on the actual WTC site, in the memorial, encouraging understanding of the moslim world. I picture one little room containing actual true information about the people and their faith, so that visitors to the memorial can experience muslims as human beings, rather than boogie men, and separate these people from the radicals who carried out the attack.

But we're not that kind of country, and many of us are incapable of seeing that separation. Our politicians get more mileage out of having us afraid of boogie men.


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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
Our politicians get more mileage out of having us afraid of boogie men.

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Originally posted by kpo:
You seem to have a heart for increased understanding of and reconciliation towards the muslim commuunity Mal4, and that drives your opinion on this matter (is that fair?).

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