Good for them! by Niki2

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"What I'm interested in seeing is the response of the folks behind it when the more radical Islamists around the world start in with the "Islam is building a mosque where we slaughtered the American infidels." stuff. You know that'll happen."

Hello,

You can count on those folks to spout nonsense gibberish antagonism 24/7. When we start making decisions based on what some religious extremists half-way around the world say, it'll be a sad day. It's like giving them the joystick to control our lives.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 4:05 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Yup. Bad enough that we're already making decision based on what some religious extremists HERE have to say. (I'm speaking, of course, of the religious right)

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 4:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yup. Bad enough that we're already making decision based on what some religious extremists HERE have to say. (I'm speaking, of course, of the religious right)

Not quite. Folks are expressing their opinions. If the folks who have the money to build the Islamic Center/Mosque/Whatever want to build it, it'll be built.

Would you rather that folks couldn't express a dissenting opinion?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, August 20, 2010 4:27 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Would you rather that folks couldn't express a dissenting opinion?"

Hello,

No. That's why I was appalled when some politicians began talking of investigating the naysayers. It seemed Orwellian.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 5:02 PM

If Obama ever wanted to do the right thing and display one scintilla of his foretold greatness and power to heal and build bridges; or just simply gain the respect and admiration of all Americans he would pick up a phone and have a conversation with the Imam and his group. Using his recently sharpened powers of friendly, peaceful conversation, like bloodlessly obtaining the $20 billion from BP, I'm sure this whole thing would be over rather quickly. If not, then this ugly thing is going to grow and fester all the way through Election Day. If Obama does this, it's a win-win politically for Democrats, and he'll be a hero to a majority of Americans, something he hasn't been in a long, long time. The worshippers can keep praying where they pray now, and there are 100's of other mosques in NYC that they can pray in until their new one is built a tad further away. Lots of options there. Maybe NYC pays for half-fare cab service to mosques or something. Maybe some Americans would even want to donate money to help fund the mosque/community center if they show some flexibilty in the location. Obama will have to face this sooner or later I believe.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 5:06 PM

If Obama called the Imam and his group, Fox would show banner headlines screaming that "OBAMA CONSPIRES WITH RADICAL MUSLIMS TO TAKE OVER AMERICA!!!!"

There is nothing that this President can do that will impress or move the far right fringe.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yup. Bad enough that we're already making decision based on what some religious extremists HERE have to say. (I'm speaking, of course, of the religious right)

Not quite. Folks are expressing their opinions. If the folks who have the money to build the Islamic Center/Mosque/Whatever want to build it, it'll be built.

Would you rather that folks couldn't express a dissenting opinion?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Nah, I already lived through 8 years of Dubya; don't need to go back to that, thanks.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 5:13 PM

C'mon....

Obama gets big majority of Americans back on his side, and grateful to him.

Dem candidates don't have to hide from it, they can tout it. What else they got to tout that the majority of Americans support? It's a golden ticket back.

Fox News would be grateful for his decision and action as well. No, it wouldn't give Obama a free pass on other things, but they would congratulate him in preventing a gigantic national rift. I think they'd give him much praise on this. And, Obama might be able to render Sean Hannity, his 10+ time target of comment and complaint, speechless for one night.

As a Conservative and Republican, I should want this hot issue foaming and in play right up to Election Day. The numbers are overwhelmingly on my side, but I'd gladly cede this issue and not be able to use it if Obama could get them to move.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 5:24 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If the leader of this nation called up a religious group and tried to convince them to move their building, I'd be dismayed. Especially if he did it for reasons of political expediency.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 5:31 PM

That's a good point. I suppose he'll need a strategy to remain "neutral" to the public. Has that changed again today by the way? Sorry, but it's hard to keep up with all the latest clarifications and quantificatons. He hasn't changed from not wanting to comment on the "wisdom" of it, has he? Gee, kind of ironic, isn't it, that such a smart and highly educated man won't comment on the "wisdom" of something so much on people's minds these days. He sure doesn't hesitate to endlessly champion things he does think are wise. But no opinion on this, other than repeating something every first-grader knows about freedom of religion. Curious.

So ultimately he'll just have to do it all quiet-like, late at night, under the covers. Or perhaps out on the golf course. Lots of things are discussed on golf courses that no one ever knows anything about. At least he'll help salvage some remains of the Democrat Party in November; cushion the fall so to speak. If not, then face a potential worse political disaster, one larger than is even discussed and predicted in some quarters now for the national election in 74 days.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 6:10 PM

TRAVELER

All I have heard, over the last few months, are Tea Party people screaming that Obama is going to step on the Constitution. Nothing says the Constitution is worthless more then steping on somebodies civil rights. Religious freedom is not just for those we agree with, but for all faiths. These are Muslims who are citizens of the United States and they have all the rights any of us have. We step on their rights, what is next? Do we put all Muslims in camps like we did the Japanese Americans during WWII. That was a shameful act and forcing these Muslims to move there community center is the same thing. This country stands for something. We allow freedoms most people don't even dream of. If we start on this road then we will be throwing the Constitution out the window.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, August 20, 2010 6:29 PM

So now the majority of Americans who oppose the mosque want to put Muslims in camps? Is that what you're suggesting? That is completely absurd. I think you should call Nancy Pelosi and check if she's already investigating Americans who support rounding up Muslims. Jeeeesh! For the record, no one is stepping on anyone, or forcing anything. It's all about sensitivity and doing the right thing in terms of the human factor. If ultimately they reject the majority of American's plea for relocation, then so be it.

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Friday, August 20, 2010 7:11 PM

TRAVELER

It was not absurd during World War II. All Japanese Americans on the west coast were rounded up and put into camps. They lost their homes and businesses. When the United States finally allowed the Nisei to enlist in the service, but were not allowed to serve as commissioned officers. They formed the 442nd Regiment with the slogan "Go for Broke". Can you imagine fighting for a nation that has forced your family out of their homes to live in a wooden sheds with a wire fence and armed guards around them? Don't tell me it is absurd.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, August 20, 2010 10:01 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Would you rather that folks couldn't express a dissenting opinion?
________________________________________________________

I agree. The whole point of this debate is twofold:

1. Freedom of Religion
2. Freedom of Speech

Unfortunately there are those that are trying to make this a simplistic issue and calling for a knee-jerk response.

Muslim bad; everybody else good.

It kind of reminds me of the response during the 40's when Japanese internment camps were all the rage. Is that what we will be known for? Is that what it will come to? Muslim internment camps.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"In the years 1939–1941, the FBI compiled the Custodial Detention Index ("CDI") on citizens, enemy aliens and foreign nationals, in the interest of national security. On June 28, 1940, the Alien Registration Act was passed. Among many other loyalty regulations, Section 31 required the registration and fingerprinting of all aliens above the age of 14, and Section 35 required aliens to report any change of address within 5 days. In the subsequent months, nearly five million foreign nationals registered at post offices around the country."
--------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds familiar don't it?

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:11 AM

Quote:
But no opinion on this, other than repeating something every first-grader knows about freedom of religion.

Every first-grader and curiously no tea-bagger seems to know this.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 1:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
It was not absurd during World War II. All Japanese Americans on the west coast were rounded up and put into camps. They lost their homes and businesses. When the United States finally allowed the Nisei to enlist in the service, but were not allowed to serve as commissioned officers. They formed the 442nd Regiment with the slogan "Go for Broke". Can you imagine fighting for a nation that has forced your family out of their homes to live in a wooden sheds with a wire fence and armed guards around them? Don't tell me it is absurd.

Traveler

I know that it was Democrat President FDR who did all that to Japanese-Americans 70 years ago. Thanks for the history lesson, but I didn't really need it.

So again, I'll ask you if you honestly believe that the 70% of all Americans who oppose the mosque SITE choice actually would want to put Muslims in camps?? Because that is what you are saying. Do you have any viable evidence of that beyond your own imaginary slippery-slope fantasies?

Do Liberals Harry Reid and Howard Dean, who both favor mosque relocation, want to do to Muslims what FDR did? Do other Democrats and 9/11 families that oppose the mosque SITE choice want to put Muslims behind fences? Or is it just Tea Party members to your way of thinking? I know you're upset that your mosque position is only supported by 26% of Americans, so I can understand your going off the deep end on this one.

And what about all of the American Muslims who also have problems with this 9/11 SITE choice, some even with the Imam himself? Some see a problem for themselves with that Imam at that site. I'm confident to believe that not too many Muslims in America would ever want Sharia Law as their new life as this guy has preached and envisioned for American Muslims in the past and present. Are they perhaps secretly hoping to be rounded up and put in camps when they speak up and give their reasons for opposing the WTC SITE choice? Given a choice women certainly, and lot's of men, except the real sadistic wife-beating types, would gladly take going to camps over the prospect of having to exist under Sharia. If I was Muslim I know I'd choose the camp over Sharia, if for nothing else than to save my girls from it. Of course Sharia Law coming here is as absurd as them going to the camps in the first place, right? But back to your point, are they then knowingly risking what you are describing (camps, round-ups) by speaking against the wisdom of the site? Or is it possible that you believe that all Muslims think alike on this mosque site issue and agree with you? Polls and statistics and my personal experience with them say that is impossible.

Finally, if anyone was going to round up Muslims and put them in camps, wouldn't it most likely have been done 9 years ago under Bush/Cheney? Wouldn't that have been the most opportune time to do it? But they didn't do it, did they? So are you thinking that Obama is going to do it? Is he going to be the next FDR on this?

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 2:50 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Nah, I already lived through 8 years of Dubya; don't need to go back to that, thanks.

Hmmm. Never noticed you failing to express a dissenting opinion during the Bush Administration.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:01 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello River,

You've become a much more effective debater of late. I don't always agree with you, but the ability to calmly and rationally deconstruct an opponent's argument is a boon to your toolbox.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 10:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Uncomfortable as it is, there ARE those in America who would like to put Muslims in camps, as well as those who would like to see them all deported.

Asking the President to step in and tell people of one religion to move their proposed COMMUNITY CENTER within which would be ONE ROOM where they could do their daily prayers is a scary thing for me. It's akin to the President stepping in on a right-to-life decision, which Bush did do. it's not his job; it's his job to protect the Constitutions and the rights of ALL AMERICANS, not just non-Muslim ones.

No matter what Obama does, he will be demonized by one faction or another; that's already been seen. So if he were to do the WRONG thing, it wouldn't help him and it would harm the country because it would lower our decency values even more than they were lowered under Bush, which was considerable.

There is no VALID reason they should find another site for their COMMUNITY CENTER with one room in it within which they can pray. The only semi-valid reason is that it offends the sensibilities of some people. The INvalid reasons being used to foment dissent are that it's some kind of "victory" for the terrorists, at whom it was INTENDED to say "look, we can manage not to condemn an entire religion because of your vicious acts". From that on, it has devolved into some kind of plot to build a terrorist cell or somesuch idiocy, and a hatred of all things Muslim.

The sensibilities that are offended were NOT OFFENDED from the time the building was proposed and approved until one person--Geller--got ahold of it and used visceral terms to appeal to the fear of the American people, thus proving that the terrorists achieved their aim: they made us fear and hate all Muslims trying to do what any other religion in America could do with no fuss at all.

If this COMMUNITY CENTER with one room where they can practice religious freedom is stopped OR moved, the terrorists have won. It's not the President's job to step in and coerce a group to move because CURRENT sensibilities are offended, it's his job to uphold the law and the Constitution. He is doing just that.

In the past, he has expressed his own views on things. That's gotten him vilified by one side or another. I think he's right not to express his opinion or take any action on this issue; it's not his place.

Lastly, I will remind you once again that the Constitution and people's civil rights are NOT up for popular vote, because in the long run, people will feel differently than they do now about almost everything, whether you accept it or not.

The internment of the Japanese took place in my state; it wasn't even TAUGHT about in school. I didn't know about it until I was in my mid-twenties, and it has shamed me to think we did such a thing. But, just as fear ran rampant then and caused people to act out of their basest instincts, so it is running rampant now with the same result. In time, if this COMMUNITY CENTER with one room within which Muslims can pray is stopped or moved, decades from now people will look back and be as shamed as I am by the internment camps.

And by then, the American people will hate/fear another group, and there will be some issue that comes up which they will react to just the same, unfortunately.

In years past, even specific mosques were no problem to be built wherever they wanted. We are not at war with Islam, so to even bring the religion into this is wrong.

You COULD draw a corollary that Christian churches should never be built anywhere near Mecca (remember the Crusades) or anywhere in Germany (yes, not all Germans were Nazis, but we sure bombed the hell out of their country) or TRULY nowhere near Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Even if any of those things are NOT permitted, are we like those not permitting them? Are we to be bigoted and intolerant just like those we have considered either ignorant, wrong or bad? I don't want us to be.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:00 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
If Obama called the Imam and his group, Fox would show banner headlines screaming that "OBAMA CONSPIRES WITH RADICAL MUSLIMS TO TAKE OVER AMERICA!!!!"

There is nothing that this President can do that will impress or move the far right fringe.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

I would add independents, all righties, and many liberals to that list. see, with his approval ratings in the 30's it can't be just the far right he doesn't make happy. However, keep telling yourself that delusional story. It makes for many chuckles and shows you are a blind partisan idiot.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:00 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:

So again, I'll ask you if you honestly believe that the 70% of all Americans who oppose the mosque SITE choice ....

It doesn't really mean jack shit what people think. They have the right to build there.

And you have a right to complain about it.

But no one has the right to tell them they can't do it, no matter the percentage.

Not to mention that a chunk of the 70% is probably operating off incomplete or false information (thinking it's actually on Ground Zero, thinking it's a minaret, etc.).

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:03 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
If Obama called the Imam and his group, Fox would show banner headlines screaming that "OBAMA CONSPIRES WITH RADICAL MUSLIMS TO TAKE OVER AMERICA!!!!"

There is nothing that this President can do that will impress or move the far right fringe.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

I would add independents, all righties, and many liberals to that list. see, with his approval ratings in the 30's it can't be just the far right he doesn't make happy. However, keep telling your self that delusional story. It makes for many chuckles and shows you are a blind partisan idiot.

Thanks a nice little oversimplification there, even if it's grossly inaccurate and based on myopic assumptions.

Sure, his approval rating is low (not Reagan levels yet, though - much less Dubya's lowest), but you are incorrectly assuming that everyone who disapproves does so for the same reason. Remember, many of his base are unhappy because he's not liberal enough. Don't assume that doing what the hard right wants will make things rosy - it's a rather ridiculous fallacy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:31 AM

By the way, since we're playing the numbers...

New poll out shows that 70% of Americans want the Bush tax cuts to be allowed to expire as originally planned.

So I've no doubt you're all in complete agreement with that, yes?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:33 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
By the way, since we're playing the numbers...

New poll out shows that 70% of Americans want the Bush tax cuts to be allowed to expire as originally planned.

So I've no doubt you're all in complete agreement with that, yes?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

I have no problem with that.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:43 AM

TRAVELER

RiverLove:

If someone would have told the people of the United States that we would resort to torture such as waterboarding, would you have said that was absurd? We already have had people being held in camps without due process during our recent wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

This is just a few years ago.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
RiverLove:

If someone would have told the people of the United States that we would resort to torture such as waterboarding, would you have said that was absurd? We already have had people being held in camps without due process during our recent wars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

This is just a few years ago.

And many of them for no greater "crime" than being Muslim at the wrong time, or in the wrong place.

We are basically one incident away from the calls to "round 'em all up, just to be sure".

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:12 PM

Hey, Kwicko. I know that supposedly the alternative term for tea-partiers originated on the right. But if RiverLove is willing to try to be civil, people on the left here ought to consider the colossal effort this must take RiverLove, and maybe be willing to offer a compromise or encouragement. Like maybe you should offer to drop offensive disparagements like tea-bagger and tea-bagging.

Just a thought. Kaneman's probably right, and this experiment probably won't last long, but so long as it does, maybe we should all try to honour our ends of the bargain.

Quote:
It's all about sensitivity and doing the right thing in terms of the human factor. If ultimately they reject the majority of American's plea for relocation, then so be it.

They're probably going to reject the plea for relocation (and so be it). Admittedly, if it bothers people, it's probably kind of a jerk thing to do, and statements by the Imam backing the prayer room haven't helped matters. But it's their property, if they bought it.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 1:03 PM

It's been a lively issue, and I believe I can understand both sides' points of view. I don't really have anything left to say anymore to explain my position, except this....Folks aren't challenging their right, folks are challenging their choice of site. And unlike Obama, I will weigh in on the wisdom of it. I believe it would be wise to build their center somewhere else. And if they ultimately build at that site or not, it will have been their choice made, no one else's.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 1:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
... colossal effort this must take RiverLove

Not so colossal, but thanks for the nod. I took a wrong turn a while back, a very wrong turn. It's feels good for me to start over here, but no one else need change anything they do because of it. That would be just too weird. The RWED might implode and wink out of existence.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 1:53 PM

Hmm. Okay. I'm still going to resist using that term. I may not agree with the teaparty because I think they aren't as independent as they like to claim they are, but I get nothing out of being disrespectful towards any of them.

Kwicko, looks like you're good to go then.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 2:01 PM

Been thinking. Still their choice, but I wonder whether this will stir up a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment again. Frem said something about an Imam he knows saying it's a symbol of solidarity with Americans, to remind Muslims of a path not to go down. Does it hurt that goal, or help it? And if they back out of their plan, will it make other Muslims cry persecution, and incite some of them to action? That could be bad for everyone.

Perhaps there's complicated nuances here.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 2:16 PM

If "tea-baggers" is the term used by some, I don't have any problem with it. It's been used on network tv and network news, as well as cable and radio. I know what it traditionally had meant, and I also know where it originated in the current political vernacular. Funny that Liberals, who will defend gay rights with their last breath, borrowed a sexual term that homosexuals knew so well. They applied that explicit sexual imagery to people's grandmas and grandpas, retirees, independents, and just other about anyone else involved with it. However, I would consider being called that a badge of honor, and it makes me and the Tea Partyers even more proud to be able to so separate ourselves from the Liberals who gave us that label. Even though I'm not necessarily on board with them, or even totally sure what it all means anyhow, I do like hearing it used by Liberals and Democrats against these people. It just frames the debate so well.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 2:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
And if they back out of their plan, will it make other Muslims cry persecution, and incite some of them to action? That could be bad for everyone.

How could they cry "prosecution" when they've never had any problem with the peaceful co-existence at 200 other mosques in NYC? And if we speculate about Muslims possibly being "incited", then aren't we profiling them based on some previous incidents with them?

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 3:48 PM

People are weird, and sometimes things one person can just shrug off eats at another person. Sometimes it's racial, sometimes it's religious. Might be extremists from out of country, and it's not dumb to admit to yourself that extremism does exist and can get riled up by things that might seem little.

Is it inevitable, no, it's not even really a part of the mindset of any of the Muslims I know or most of the Muslims in the U.S. My gut feeling is most Muslims currently in the U.S. are here because they were trying to escape that kind of crap. Nor is it even standard among Muslims elsewhere. I'm just trying to look at the other side of the issue here and brainstorm worst case scenarios.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
..most Muslims currently in the U.S. are here because they were trying to escape that kind of crap. Nor is it even standard among Muslims elsewhere. I'm just trying to look at the other side of the issue here and brainstorm worst case scenarios.

I completely agree with the first part. I see Muslims every day in my office building where I work. Worst case scenarios? I don't know. There's never been any large incidents of violence carried out by large masses of Muslims here. This isn't going to turn into something like the mayhem we often see in Europe with the youth riots, cars set ablaze, and property destruction that goes on for days. Muslims in America have become just another part of our multicultural society, and they have done well and succeeded in America, and they have freedom. They've never shown any inkling they'd do any of that type of violent rioting here. If they do want to protest the backlash they're seeing against the mosque site, I expect it will be done in the same manner as any other group of protesters in America.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 4:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
If "tea-baggers" is the term used by some, I don't have any problem with it. It's been used on network tv and network news, as well as cable and radio. I know what it traditionally had meant, and I also know where it originated in the current political vernacular. Funny that Liberals, who will defend gay rights with their last breath, borrowed a sexual term that homosexuals knew so well. They applied that explicit sexual imagery to people's grandmas and grandpas, retirees, independents, and just other about anyone else involved with it. However, I would consider being called that a badge of honor, and it makes me and the Tea Partyers even more proud to be able to so separate ourselves from the Liberals who gave us that label. Even though I'm not necessarily on board with them, or even totally sure what it all means anyhow, I do like hearing it used by Liberals and Democrats against these people. It just frames the debate so well.

RL, the liberals did NOT give you that label. The tea partiers themselves, before the first big Tax Day Tea Party in 2009, loudly proclaimed that they were going to "tea-bag the President" and called themselves "tea-baggers".

It is not anyone else's fault that they had no idea that that phrase already had some specific connotations amongst certain groups.

To try to blame liberals for this is disingenuous at best, outright lying at worst.

If I refer to the tea party people as tea-baggers, it's only because I choose to use the term that they applied to themselves. If any of them find it insulting, they should be angry with the founders of the tea parties, not with me.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Saturday, August 21, 2010 4:52 PM

n/m

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
RL, the liberals did NOT give you that label. The tea partiers themselves, before the first big Tax Day Tea Party in 2009, loudly proclaimed that they were going to "tea-bag the President" and called themselves "tea-baggers".

During the earliest Tea Parties, which some networks chose to ignore covering, I recall seeing a few Midwestern old ladies with funny hats that had tea bags dangling from them. Although I cannot specifically recall them or others saying any of what you say they did, I don't necessarily dismiss the claim.

Quote:
It is not anyone else's fault that they had no idea that that phrase already had some specific connotations amongst certain groups.

Agree that many would likely haven't had a clue. I'm glad they didn't know what it meant. Very refreshing in todays' ultra-jaded society. But to apply "fault" to this whether some knew or some didn't seems to me like blaming the Christians for their own plight when Nero tossed them into the arena to play with the hungry lions and tigers.

Quote:
To try to blame liberals for this is disingenuous at best, outright lying at worst.

As dramatic a statement as that is, it doesn't happen to ring true for me and how I saw it develop. Back in the earliest of Tea Party days, long before they became targets for daily bloodsport fun for every Liberal, Leftist, and mainstream Democrat, I vividly recall seeing Jeanine Garafalo on Bill Mahr's show. She was wearing her Sunday red bandana, and with her piercings and tattoos all glistening under the studio lights, she proceeded to scream and rant about "the Tea-Bagging Racists! Oh, she went on and on, pounding the desk and squirming around uncomfortably, with her white tank-top swaying back and forth, and this was at the very beginning of their existence mind you. After Jeanine's profanity-laced rally call to Mahr's cable audience we started seeing and hearing the Tea-baggers and racist labels applied in parts of Liberal Land. Keith Olbermann taunted and snickered with glee for hours, days, weeks with it. And smiling-face gal Rachel Maddow made sure the fringe 5% who watch her regularly got the terminology right. Then it became part of the liberal mainstream, including newspapers and big three network shows.

Quote:
If I refer to the tea party people as tea-baggers, it's only because I choose to use the term that they applied to themselves. If any of them find it insulting, they should be angry with the founders of the tea parties, not with me.

I clearly stated in a post above that I have no problem with it's use. You don't need to defend anything, but it's interesting that you tried. Believe me, Tea Party people really don't care what names they're called anymore. They've heard them all.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:41 AM

Not defending, love. *Explaining*. Subtle difference there.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 3:46 AM

Ok, you were explaining. I explained things too. C'mon, I know you liked the Garafalo story.

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Sunday, August 22, 2010 4:19 AM