RiverLoves experiment inTolerance by kaneman

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RiverLoves experiment inTolerance

POSTED BY: KANEMAN
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:37
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Monday, August 23, 2010 9:46 AM

I have always been a staunch supporter of Riverlove's style and substance. The king of sting has decided to do battle with the Liberals on this board using kindness, tact, respect, and kooth. I implore all RWED's to pay careful attention to this. I have no doubt she can out debate the crazies on this board as well as Auraptor has(who in my mind has never lost a debate with the extremists amongst us). We had a thread about tolerating the intolerable. I think that Riverlove's experiment is the perfect data to see if it is possible to tolerate the intolerable when you are a reasonable person. I say impossible. When debating others of opposite mind and they snark you and you know you are right. Your true beliefs have to come out. When they start their posts with placation"Gawd riverlove I can't believe...." that becomes manipulation in the mind of the righteous. I wish river all the best in staying out of the "gutter", however I would add if you are debating views that are born and fostered in the gutter, you need to fight gutter shit with shit.

That being said...I have seen this experiment before. It ends gloriously. When River placates as long as she can, when she realizes she gets nowhere but simple platitudes, when she realizes it is only a board of thought and the libs have none...My girl is going to go off...Thing jonng, think 6 string, think me. I wish you the best River, but long for the day you return to us instead of placating the true TROLLS.....

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Monday, August 23, 2010 10:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I wasn't aware RL was engaging in a battle. I'm not, but I can't speak for anyone else. That's all I have to say regarding this rant, which I think is unnecessary and unpleasant.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, August 23, 2010 10:12 AM

MINCINGBEAST

I have nothing to say, and I am saying it, and that is poetry.

(And also plagiarism).

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Monday, August 23, 2010 10:19 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
but long for the day you return to us instead of placating the true TROLLS

Everybody's righteous (even Kaneman).

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 10:25 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Just for the record Kaneman, I'm still here. Been mostly posting in the general areas, but I do read these posts almost every day. I guess I just don't have much to say these days. Many others are saying it for me, and besides, what is really left to say that hasn't been said so many times before?

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Monday, August 23, 2010 10:32 AM

STORYMARK

Are we caring about this now?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, August 23, 2010 10:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
When debating others of opposite mind and they snark you and you know you are right. Your true beliefs have to come out.

You seem to think that "debating" means restating one's "beliefs" over and over again. In reality, "debating" means listening to the other side and responding with facts and logic, not just shouting "Down with the infidels!" in the most emotional and extreme way possible.

In that sense, very few people on the right actually ever "debate" anything.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 11:14 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
In that sense, very few people on the right actually ever "debate" anything.

Actually, very few people at all ever debate anything.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 23, 2010 1:08 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Jongsstraw (or somebody) posted:

Many others are saying it for me...

You said it. ;)

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Monday, August 23, 2010 2:45 PM

KLESST

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
I would add if you are debating views that are born and fostered in the gutter, you need to fight gutter shit with shit.

One of the problems I've always had with Republicans is that they would rather lose than stoop to the level of their opponents. I see it as a weakness and a abdication of their responsibility to protect us from the insanity of the left. I will always support the candidate that is not afraid to fight fire with fire. Civility is for pussy's, this is the future of the planet we're talking about. Let's be bad guys.

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Monday, August 23, 2010 3:10 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Yes, Klesst, I am constantly distressed at the amount of civility shown by the Republicans. In every situation, there is a window of opportunity to be agressive. To get down and dirty. To win by any means necessary. Whenever these situations arise, I always find myself dumbfounded at the Republican response. I think to myself, "What are you doing?! That's not the way to win a political challenge!"

Sadly, I see no sign that the Republicans are going to learn from their past missteps on this issue.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:49 AM

RIVERLOVE

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
I have always been a staunch supporter of Riverlove's style and substance. The king of sting has decided to do battle with the Liberals on this board using kindness, tact, respect, and kooth.

Kman, I never said I'd do any of that. I only said I would try to:

1) Never use profanity
2) Never use vulgarity
3) Never use personal attacks on other posters

That's what I wrote and meant. I have not abandoned my beliefs or principles, and I intend on continuing to post my agreements or disagreements with others on issues. I'm convinced that you can be just as, or even more effective without all the gutter stuff.

Quote:
I implore all RWED's to pay careful attention to this. I have no doubt she can out debate the crazies on this board as well as Auraptor has(who in my mind has never lost a debate with the extremists amongst us). We had a thread about tolerating the intolerable. I think that Riverlove's experiment is the perfect data to see if it is possible to tolerate the intolerable when you are a reasonable person. I say impossible.

Again, no experiment here friend. You're making way too much of this, and you're preaching to a crowd, that for legitimate reasons, has no real interest in what I do or don't do. As I said the other day, I'm doing this for me, and to also make some amends to the board in general that I was abusing regularly. I never asked, nor did I have any expectations of anyone else toning things down in here....but guess what? I immediatley saw some positive changes which was great to see.

Quote:
I wish river all the best in staying out of the "gutter", however I would add if you are debating views that are born and fostered in the gutter, you need to fight gutter shit with shit.

You do not need to do any such thing. You can stay the course and keep it clean. It's harder though, because cursing is easy, and clean responses require thought.

Quote:
That being said...I have seen this experiment before. It ends gloriously. When River placates as long as she can, when she realizes she gets nowhere but simple platitudes, when she realizes it is only a board of thought and the libs have none...My girl is going to go off...Thing jonng, think 6 string, think me. I wish you the best River, but long for the day you return to us instead of placating the true TROLLS.....

I say again that nothing has changed, except the language and imagery.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

" Debate " isn't anything more than one's ability to artfully promote a point of view which sounds more convincing than their opponent(s). Winning doesn't in any way proclaim truth, or determine reality.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:52 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Jongsstraw (or somebody) posted:

Many others are saying it for me...

You said it. ;)

You caught that

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
One of the problems I've always had with Republicans is that they would rather lose than stoop to the level of their opponents

You are, of course, joking. Give us some examples of those on the right here on this forum who haven’t “stooped” FAR below their opponents on a regular basis, not to mention making it personal, accusing their opponents of very ugly things which have nothing to do with any debate, and refused to admit they’ve “lost” at ANY time, carrying on the flame war post after post in a style which is FAR uglier than almost any of their opponents?

I also see NO indication that RL isn’t quite capable of, and hasn’t already been, stating her beliefs quite clearly and debating in the way which reflects truly DEBATING, just as sig said

Quote:
In reality, "debating" means listening to the other side and responding with facts and logic, not just shouting "Down with the infidels!" in the most emotional and extreme way possible

All I see her as having given up is the gutterspeak, the things she enumerated she wants to avoid, not in any way betraying her beliefs. She is actually far, FAR more effective in making her points than she ever ways before (in the time I’ve been here) or are you and your cronies. I would wish that you could emulate her, as I’m always looking for discussions with others of differing beliefs, and am unable to do so with people who’s only “argument” is ugliness and personal attacks. I’m thoroughly enjoying and coming to highly respect the “new RL”.

And yes, I’ve seen changes too, RL. I see people communicating with you and not snarking you (for the most part); you now have things to say, and as such I and others are reading them and responding to you. That in itself is a change, but I would bet dollars to donuts that the reasonable people here, be they right or left, appreciate being able to communicate with you and are having their opinion of you and respect for you grow.

Quote:
You do not need to do any such thing. You can stay the course and keep it clean. It's harder though, because cursing is easy, and clean responses require thought.

Yes, it is, isn’t it? Especially when the responses one gets are deliberately intended to trigger anger and lashing out. It’s taken ME this long to learn to work at presenting what I have to say without allowing myself to be triggered into stooping...hell, I only “grokked” it just before you decided to change YOUR ways as well, it’s so hard to learn.

But it sounds as if, like me, you are finding it worth it and feeling better about yourself as well. I am; when I try to make my points and ignore the ugliness that comes my way, I know I am presenting what I believe without being drawn into a flame war that is useless, crowds out/threadjacks the issue, and that whatever comes back at me that is just ugly has no meaning. It's actually easier than I thought, and worth the effort.

One thing I want to add is that it's wonderful to be able to learn what you actually believe, rather than just getting back personal attacks which told me nothing about YOU. I was never able to learn what you believed and why, only that you hated. This way is, in comparison, atually interesting!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:22 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:

Kman, I never said I'd do any of that. I only said I would try to:

1) Never use profanity
2) Never use vulgarity
3) Never use personal attacks on other posters

Be interesting to see if any of your "alters" follow suit.

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
" Debate " isn't anything more than one's ability to artfully promote a point of view which sounds more convincing than their opponent(s). Winning doesn't in any way proclaim truth, or determine reality.

I agree. And therefore, the REAL test of who has the better grasp of reality... whose mental model encompasses more of the important variables ... is the ability to either (a) resolve internal logical inconsistencies, or (b) explain ALL of the facts (not just a few selected cherries) or (c) predict the future, or (d) all of the above.

May as well be scientific about it!

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, Anthony... where DID you learn to post like that???? (sighs with envy)

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Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Umm, Niki ?

He was being rather extremely sarcastic, there.

I daresay he's either no good at it, or TOO good at it, depending on how you look at it.

Slick, that was.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 11:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ooops, did he get me? Eeep. I don't know Klesst well enough yet to be able to figure out when he's yankin' my chain. You sure? I knew ANTHONY was, but there are certainly those here who would dare say such things with a straight face...AND BELIEVE THEM!

If he was putting us on, then he's TOO good at it, 'cuz he got me!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:37 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Umm, Niki ?

He was being rather extremely sarcastic, there.

I daresay he's either no good at it, or TOO good at it, depending on how you look at it.

Slick, that was.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

I can be really good at it. Depends on who I am that moment.

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