Another 'Religion of Peace' moment, brought to you by.....yep, ISLAM! by AURaptor

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

Really. I have a challenge. Everyday I will post killings of people(now ..currently) in the name of Allah...you do the same about people killed in the name of Jesus(who happens to be a fictional character praised in the minds of idiots...as is Mohammad).....What say you Mister "so do Christians"...again saying Bush is a christian does not count unless you can find the pope or a high ranking catholic(bishop=immam) agreeing. Don't forget O'bama is a christian dumb ass.

Again, some of you seem to be missing my point entirely. At this point, I'm forced to confront the idea that it's being done intentionally.

The POINT is that there are murderers and monsters the world over, and there's always someone (like Wulfie here) who is predisposed to murder and monstrous activity, and who is just looking and begging for a "cause" they can believe in, which will tell them it's really okay to give in to their worst desires, because it's only natural, and thus "righteous" to do so.

Islam doesn't *create* mass murderers, any more than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or atheism do; they tend to ATTRACT such personalities, because under the umbrella of "god's will", they can go ahead and be as monstrous as they always wanted to be, and all is "forgiven" because their acts were carried out in a "holy" cause.

I find it funny that you want to play games and trade murders. Wait - "funny" isn't the right word. Pathetic. That's the word.

But I find it odd that you want to place restrictions and constrictions on the Christian side of your little game. You say I need to have some kind of official sanction from church higher-ups (although only Catholic officials seem to make the cut for you) for a "Christian" killer to be recognized. Who's the Muslim pope who sanctioned the 9/11 attacks, then? Osama isn't an Imam, last I heard.

Forgive me if I decide not to play your little game by the rigged rules you've already written. You'll just have to keep playing with yourself.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 1:42 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

Islam doesn't *create* mass murderers, any more than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or atheism do; they tend to ATTRACT such personalities, because under the umbrella of "god's will", they can go ahead and be as monstrous as they always wanted to be, and all is "forgiven" because their acts were carried out in a "holy" cause.

Bali, Beslan, Mumbai, 9/11, Madrid, London, D.C. Snipers, Ft. Hood shooter, suicide bombers.....

Sorry, but playing inter webs psychologist or profiler isn't really your gig, is it? You overlook the obvious and ignore reality, all so you can spin the actual story.

Mass murderers aren't made, they're born? And it just HAPPENS, out of the purest of blind, dumb luck that most end up being *tricked* into buying the Islam fairy tale, more so than all the other mass murderers for all the other religions combined ?

Huh.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 3:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, wittle River is getting cranky.... Got nothing but absurd straw men to toss out there.

Sucks when people won't fall in line with your fear and hatred, huh? Poor kid. How sad.

Doesn't suck at all buddy. Actually, feels pretty good knowing that I'm already IN line with the vast majority of Americans on this, 68% I believe. Only 26% think like you do. Now that MUST suck for you. So sorry

River, act like a character from Deadwood and tell this smarmy cock-sucker how you really feel. Language was invented to convey meaning and feeling...stop being nice. Tact waters down truth and conviction. Wish you luck, however you used to be a lion and now seem like a lamb. I'm sure NIKI2 will thank you for your coooooooth.

He's pretty harmless K. He likes to snark me some, it's ok. You need to relax, and ask yourself if hurling the same nasty stuff at your favorite targets every day is really accomplishing anything, or even making you feel any better about yourself. And do you really think that your nasty stuff has any impact on them? You know they just brush it aside just like you do, so what is the point to it?

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Friday, August 27, 2010 3:30 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Pizmo, the fact that some Muslims, some Democrats, ALL Republicans and no doubt all or virtually all fundamentalist Christians think it's a bad idea doesn't prove your point, actually it refutes it. These people fear letting it be built there because they fear the repercussions of a COMMUNITY CENTER which is now being viewed as a mosque, a terrorist gathering place, a sign of terrorist victory, and so many other absurd things.

The fact that you ascribe those negative feelings and motivations to ALL of those people is a sure sign of you being extremely wonky. Have a nice day.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, August 27, 2010 3:45 AM

Opposition to the Terror Mosque is actually growing. Latest polls show 70% oppose now, while only 24% approve. Hard to believe that 70% of all Americans, Liberals and Muslims included, are just so wrong, and so bigoted. Must be just pure hell around the water coolers at NBC & NY Times. Great to see that Katie Couric's ratings have just dropped to an all time low, a number so low in viewership that even Dan Rather never approached it before he got the boot. How'd that old KISS song go again?....Oh oh tears are falling!

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Friday, August 27, 2010 3:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Opposition to the Terror Mosque is actually growing. Latest polls show 70% oppose now, while only 24% approve. Hard to believe that 70% of all Americans, Liberals and Muslims included, are just so wrong, and so bigoted. Must be just pure hell around the water coolers at NBC & NY Times. Great to see that Katie Couric's ratings have just dropped to an all time low, a number so low in viewership that even Dan Rather never approached it before he got the boot. How'd that old KISS song go again?....Oh oh tears are falling!

Hard to believe that you think the rights of Americans should be decided by opinion polls. You don't think that many Americans could be so wrong and so bigoted? Really? What if I were to show you the polling data from the 60s, where fully 80% of Americans polled believed that interracial marriage should be illegal?

I guess in your book, they were 100% correct.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 3:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

Islam doesn't *create* mass murderers, any more than Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or atheism do; they tend to ATTRACT such personalities, because under the umbrella of "god's will", they can go ahead and be as monstrous as they always wanted to be, and all is "forgiven" because their acts were carried out in a "holy" cause.

Bali, Beslan, Mumbai, 9/11, Madrid, London, D.C. Snipers, Ft. Hood shooter, suicide bombers.....

Sorry, but playing inter webs psychologist or profiler isn't really your gig, is it? You overlook the obvious and ignore reality, all so you can spin the actual story.

Mass murderers aren't made, they're born? And it just HAPPENS, out of the purest of blind, dumb luck that most end up being *tricked* into buying the Islam fairy tale, more so than all the other mass murderers for all the other religions combined ?

Huh.

Your grasp of reality is as shoddy as your reading comprehension. I said that radical extremes ATTRACT people who are already predisposed to mass murder.

And in the past, you and several others have tried to lay the "history's worst mass murderers" crown on the heads of atheists (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.)

So were you lying then, or are you lying now?

I not only reject your argument, I reject your "facts", because you've offered nothing by way of evidence other than your opinion. And we all know you're no expert, on anything.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 4:04 AM

My pal, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist for The Washington Post, Charles Krauthammer, wrote a great piece on this today called The Last Refuge of a Liberal. Read it if you like.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/26/AR2010
082605233.html

My favorite part is at the end..."The Democrats are going to get beaten badly in November. Not just because the economy is ailing. And not just because Obama over-read his mandate in governing too far left. But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them."

Yes Charles I agree. The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 4:43 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority."

Hello,

Is it possible to find a politician, political spokesperson, or political movement that does not 'lecture us every day about what is right and wrong?'

Attending a political speech or program is a lot like attending a Church. You get to hear about sin and sinners, and then you get to hear about the righteous path to the Lord.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 5:13 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And as much as some would like to believe otherwise, there are Christian monsters and murderers as well, even in this day and age.

Really. I have a challenge. Everyday I will post killings of people(now ..currently) in the name of Allah...you do the same about people killed in the name of Jesus(who happens to be a fictional character praised in the minds of idiots...as is Mohammad).....What say you Mister "so do Christians"...again saying Bush is a christian does not count unless you can find the pope or a high ranking catholic(bishop=immam) agreeing. Don't forget O'bama is a christian dumb ass.

Actually a nice try Kane. The problem as you began to realise is that we cannot all agree on the 'weight' of evil of the Iraq invasions (or other actions of Christians), and how much of it is down to the influence of Christianity. We all have our own take on it, influenced by our individual biases. Start to move away from evil-balancing scales, how you measure it in your mind's eye is very different to how Kwicko measures it in his mind (you're only moving towards another debate on the Iraq war this way). See you on the other side...

Quote:
River, act like a character from Deadwood and tell this smarmy cock-sucker how you really feel.

If you really love her Kaneman, let her go.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 5:22 AM

A "religion of peace" interview, followed by a spirited discussion.....

Moderate Muslims, like the regular old normal Ground Zero mosque folks? They're clearly not "Terrorists", so what are they then? My liberal friends wanna take a crack at this?

How 'bout my gay friends out there? Like what you see?

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Friday, August 27, 2010 5:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Opposition to the Terror Mosque is actually growing. Latest polls show 70% oppose now, while only 24% approve. Hard to believe that 70% of all Americans, Liberals and Muslims included, are just so wrong, and so bigoted. Must be just pure hell around the water coolers at NBC & NY Times. Great to see that Katie Couric's ratings have just dropped to an all time low, a number so low in viewership that even Dan Rather never approached it before he got the boot. How'd that old KISS song go again?....Oh oh tears are falling!

Hard to believe that you think the rights of Americans should be decided by opinion polls. You don't think that many Americans could be so wrong and so bigoted? Really? What if I were to show you the polling data from the 60s, where fully 80% of Americans polled believed that interracial marriage should be illegal?

I guess in your book, they were 100% correct.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

Is this the same era that close to 80% of republicans voted for the civil rights act while only 47% of democrats did.... in the senate? And similar % in the house. You seem to love ancient history. You know, the crusades, Bush, the sixties.....Keep it relevant.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 6:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And as much as some would like to believe otherwise, there are Christian monsters and murderers as well, even in this day and age.

Really. I have a challenge. Everyday I will post killings of people(now ..currently) in the name of Allah...you do the same about people killed in the name of Jesus(who happens to be a fictional character praised in the minds of idiots...as is Mohammad).....What say you Mister "so do Christians"...again saying Bush is a christian does not count unless you can find the pope or a high ranking catholic(bishop=immam) agreeing. Don't forget O'bama is a christian dumb ass.

Actually a nice try Kane. The problem as you began to realise is that we cannot all agree on the 'weight' of evil of the Iraq invasions (or other actions of Christians), and how much of it is down to the influence of Christianity. We all have our own take on it, influenced by our individual biases. Start to move away from evil-balancing scales, how you measure it in your mind's eye is very different to how Kwicko measures it in his mind (you're only moving towards another debate on the Iraq war this way). See you on the other side...

Quote:
River, act like a character from Deadwood and tell this smarmy cock-sucker how you really feel.

If you really love her Kaneman, let her go.

It's not personal. It's just war.

My soulmate did it again. How is the Iraq invasion a Christian thing? I'm pretty sure my congress voted for it and voted to fund it. Is congress Christian? Seeing it was passed with only Ron Paul and that creature with the hot wife... Dennis Kusinich-something opposing it. I find it quite a stretch to call that a Christian invasion.....I call for another retraction

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Friday, August 27, 2010 6:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
My pal, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist for The Washington Post, Charles Krauthammer, wrote a great piece on this today called The Last Refuge of a Liberal. Read it if you like.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/26/AR2010
082605233.html

My favorite part is at the end..."The Democrats are going to get beaten badly in November. Not just because the economy is ailing. And not just because Obama over-read his mandate in governing too far left. But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them."

Yes Charles I agree. The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority.

You are an Islamophobic, nativistic, bigot...who happens to throw around economics to make a point...Shame on you.

fantastic article.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 6:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
A "religion of peace" interview, followed by a spirited discussion.....

Moderate Muslims, like the regular old normal Ground Zero mosque folks? They're clearly not "Terrorists", so what are they then? My liberal friends wanna take a crack at this?

How 'bout my gay friends out there? Like what you see?

Kwicko, what say you? Do you really want to be thrown from a tall building(maybe even the "Community Center" at ground zero) for being gay? After watching this I my convert and worship Allah....fantastic law...this sharia...BUILD BABY BUILD.....BUILD BABY BUILD.....

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Friday, August 27, 2010 6:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
My pal, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist for The Washington Post, Charles Krauthammer, wrote a great piece on this today called The Last Refuge of a Liberal. Read it if you like.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/26/AR2010
082605233.html

My favorite part is at the end..."The Democrats are going to get beaten badly in November. Not just because the economy is ailing. And not just because Obama over-read his mandate in governing too far left. But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them."

Yes Charles I agree. The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority.

You are an Islamophobic, nativistic, bigot...who happens to throw around economics to make a point...Shame on you. fantastic article.

Meredith Brooks wrote something closer to what I really am Kman......

"Yesterday I cried.
You must have been relieved
To see the softer side,
I can understand how you'd be so confused,
I don't envy you.
I'm a little bit of everything
all rolled into one

I'm a bitch,
I'm a lover,
I'm a child,
I'm a mother,
I'm a sinner,
I'm a saint,
and I do not feel ashamed.
I'm your hell,
I'm your dream,
I'm nothing in between.
You know you wouldn't want it any other way.

So take me as I am,
This may mean you'll have to be a stronger man.
Rest assured that when I start to make you nervous, and I'm going to extremes:
Tomorrow I will change,
And today won't mean a thing

I'm a bitch,
I'm a tease,
I'm a goddess on my knees.
When you hurt,
When you suffer,
I'm your angel undercover.
I've been numb,
I'm revived,
Can't say I'm not alive,
You know I wouldn't want it any other way.

Just when you think you've got me figured out,
The season's already changin'.
I think it's cool you do what you do
And don't try to save me."

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Friday, August 27, 2010 6:37 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
My soulmate did it again. How is the Iraq invasion a Christian thing?

Kwicko can tell you. And I warned you...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 7:22 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

This sucker’s still going on, eh? And here I thought everything that needed saying had been said. I should have realized that would mean nothing...sigh...

Trader, before I say anything else, let me say that my experience with Republicans has exactly mirrored yours with Democrats. Interestingly, in this place, what I see is liberals being quite content to debate things—with a few exceptions completely void of personal attacks—while conservatives—with a few exceptions--usually joining a discussion spouting hate, derogatory personal attacks, and obscenities. But our discussions here seem to show me that we’re pretty equal in making our points, valid or not in the other side’s opinion, snarking personally and responding to other people’s points.

I’m going to break down this thread to make my point. Most likely none will read it, but I think it's a relatively accurate refutation on your statement about liberals:

Quote:
It starts OUT right away with an incident portrayed by a conservative about a country run amok with no government, no police, etc., as being a statement against Muslims.

The response is a reasonable reply that there are extremists everywhere, they do not represent rational people, followed by, yes, a personal attack with one salient point:
Quote:
No one is denying the existence of Muslim extremists. We just don't see their existence as proof that all Muslims are extremists.
Then comes a point that, despite all the violence, nobody claims all Mexicans are violent.

The response states flatly that “some are denying the existence of Muslim extremists”, which is patently untrue, and the point of the post is to say liberals are unable to see that truth. Then a personal slur, and a snark in response to the personal slur.

Next a comparison to the lack of calling Mexican catholics all monsters, and the cogent point that ‘There's plenty of monsters in every religion”, and a snark about the personal slur.

The reply refutes the Mexico thing because the Mexicans is drug lords, not religion. The response is frustration at the comparison between Christians and Muslims, with the point that only Muslims are embarked on a world-wide movement and that until Christians do so “everywhere at the edge of the sword, such comparisons are feeble and silly”

Then agreement with the lack of need to compare the religions, and the fact that, once again, essentially “there are monsters in both religions”.

The reply agrees, saying sort of “history doesn’t count”. The responder points out perspective, that "Zoo A is within my antelope tolerance level. I am prepared to tolerate X amount of antelopes, but X+1 antelopes gives me a tizzy."

The response misinterprets the previous discussion by characterizing it thus: “because Christians may be assholes, jihadists are actually soft and fuzzy in comparison”, which is not at all accurate.

There follows a good point as to which scares the poster more, “Christian fundies or Muslim fundies?” and how Christian extremists are more of a personal threat to those in America.

The reply is the comparison “9/11 has always paled in terms of practical damage when compared to how we responded to it. And how we CONTINUE to respond to it.”

The response offers a personal reaction to “fundies” in general.

I came in with an attempt at perspective between America as a Christian nation and what America’s done as a result of the visceral fear of Islam, reference and refutation that the original post of the thread refers to something happening far away in a lawless country, and the point that the discussion reflects that some people DO “blame Islam for 9/11.

The reply opines that the concept that all Muslims are evil is bullshit

I agreed with Cav that the Muslim extremists aren’t a power compared to us, and that we should look to who is fostering the anti-Muslim propaganda to see who is the REAL enemy.

Story challenges the statement that anyone disputes there are Muslim terrorists.

And on and on...where exactly do you see those on the left being unable to “tolerate an opposing opinion”? I see refutation, but no unwillingness to TOLERATE opposing opinions, merely debating or dismissing them, on either side. If you continue reading, you’d find Kane encouraging RiverL to attack rather than discuss and promising to post daily accounts of current killings by Muslims. Mike snarks at Wulf and reiterates his point that there are monsters in all religions. Raptor retaliates with the a snark and claim that Mike ignores reality. RiverL points out that nastiness is ineffective. Pizmo calls me wonky. River comments with some snarks at the left. Mike responds that the majority believing something doesn’t mean it’s right. Mike questions Raptor’s grasp of reality, brings up past discussions and asks if Raptor was lying then or now. RiverL puts up a link and expresses her partisan snarking that Dems are screwed in November. Anthony remarks that all politics involves lecturing “we’re right, they’re wrong”. KPO responds to Kane’s promise of posting daily killings, points out how we all have our different takes on things and suggests Kane stop pushing RiverL to get nasty. RiverL posts a video showing moderate Muslims talking about Sharia law as an example that Islam is bad. Kane CIVILLY (wow!) counter Mike’s references to the past and says “keep it relevant”. That's as far as I got before posting this.

And there you are. Points on both sides, partisanship on both sides, snarking on both sides. Where does it prove your point about liberals?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, August 27, 2010 7:30 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Back to the discussion at hand. I disagree with you to an extent:

Quote:
However, in the context of tolerance being dependent on strength, I can't fault them for being incapable of tolerance due to their position of inferior relative strength, right?

I don’t know if you mean lack of current political strength or personal strength...if you mean the former, I don’t think that has anything to do with intolerance except in an ancillary way. It is PERSONAL strength or weakness, to me, which determines tolerance. A “majority” can easily become a mob, but among them, it is generally those who are of the weakest self-confidence who are the most easily led and manipulated. That exists in people regardless of their political affiliation or religion or anything else, I believe.

I don’t blame Bush or Christianity for all the nation’s problems, by a long shot. They’ve been CONTRIBUTORY, but a lot more went into our financial mess than Bush alone, or Christianity alone, or the combination. I do fault Bush’s policies, his advisors, and the mentality in his administration (appoint incompetent cronies, deregulate, lower taxes for the wealthy, cow-tow to Wall Street, lack of oversight and more) for the economic mess, and that the backing he got from the Christian Right helped him get into office and he in return increased their ability to affect laws, etc. But there are many to blame for the recession, and everything else that’s gone wrong, not just Bush or religion.

Bang on Cav:

Quote:
Fear knows no political affiliation.

And the “mosque” thing IS irrelevant. I’m finally seeing SOME sources call it the COMMUNITY CENTER it is, but it’s become the current vernacular, and those who are propagandizing it have made it so. Whatever you call it, the fact remains that it IS NOT A MOSQUE. Has nothing to do with the reference.

Also on the “symbolic places”...again, that is irrelevant. I don’t consider Ground Zero symbolic and it raises nothing but sadness to me. I wish they’d rebuild so it had less of an effect, was less of an open sore on the land. But different people consider different places symbolic; personally, I found St. Mark’s Square in Venice one of my major ones—not by choice, but because for some reason, all three times we have gone there in my adult life, I start to cry. Not sadness or happiness, just (I’m betting) a reaction to the time I visited there as a child with my parents. I don’t know why. That it is symbolic to some is fine, but it has nothing to do with the REAL reasons for the furor...making it symbolic (or more so) has been a political talking point further used to incite resentment.

Quote:
because Palin Syndrome is entirely preventable with proper mental hygiene.

Oh, I LOVE that. Maybe a “mental enema and proper food (i.e., intelligence/education)”, eh?

I love

Quote:
A Sarah-Palin-drome, however, is always more backwards than forward

too, Mike.

Trader, I don’t think anyone (here at least) thinks of anyone who disagrees with Obama’s policies is a racist. It’s the ones who express themselves with visceral terms and portray him as the end of America, etc., who are being manipulated by appeals to their (conscious or unconscious) racism. If people did nothing but disagree with his policies, I don’t think the cry of “racism” would ever have come up...certainly not by those of us who THINK. But they haven’t been, for the most part; the appeal has been to see him as “the other” as a PERSON, and the talk has been about him being not an American, some kind of anti-Christ, not a Christian but a CLOSET Muslim, etc.

By the way, I find the past quite relevant...and so does the Right. How often do we hear The Great God Reagan intoned? If people can reach that far back, then the previous administration is fair game, and NO President acts in a vacuum, all Presidents’ administration have to deal with what was left for them.

As to why the Iraq invasion was a “Christian” war. As I remarked to someone regarding this (not here), Bush called it a Crusade. The military has done a lot to encourage that, as can be seen by comments from some of the soldiers, and guns used carried Bible verses. It was not a “Christian” war, but a lot of the same methods were used to encourage those bent that way in the first place to VIEW it as that...just as the original Crusades were. It fired the religious people up to hate those of another religion...for political purposes and to gain backing for the war itself.

Are all our legislators Christian? No, but an awful lot of them are, or Jewish I believe, and in both religions there are those who view Islam as the enemy. It helped fire them up to make it against the “MUSLIM terrorists”. The use of “crusade” appealed emotionally to that faction. The portrayal of Muslims as violent heathens helped. The same thing is happening today. It’s effective among strongly religious Christians.

So no, it’s not a holy war. But the idea of it being a crusade against a religious enemy has been utilized, sometimes subtly, sometimes less so, to further the agenda of the war.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, August 27, 2010 7:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, wittle River is getting cranky.... Got nothing but absurd straw men to toss out there.

Sucks when people won't fall in line with your fear and hatred, huh? Poor kid. How sad.

Doesn't suck at all buddy. Actually, feels pretty good knowing that I'm already IN line with the vast majority of Americans on this, 68% I believe. Only 26% think like you do. Now that MUST suck for you. So sorry

River, act like a character from Deadwood and tell this smarmy cock-sucker how you really feel. Language was invented to convey meaning and feeling...stop being nice. Tact waters down truth and conviction. Wish you luck, however you used to be a lion and now seem like a lamb. I'm sure NIKI2 will thank you for your coooooooth.

He's pretty harmless K. He likes to snark me some, it's ok. You need to relax, and ask yourself if hurling the same nasty stuff at your favorite targets every day is really accomplishing anything, or even making you feel any better about yourself. And do you really think that your nasty stuff has any impact on them? You know they just brush it aside just like you do, so what is the point to it?

My dear, This site already has Auraptor. That you think you can debate these terds without vulgarity is nonsense. I am not here to debate these idiots I am here to call them stupid fucks. Are there no better sites to have civilized debate? I do it all for the lurkers...no-one here is going to change the country, no-one here is going to change policy, Kwicko and the like are either commies or so Liberal as to be beyond debate...fuck 'em...Haken thanks you for the views

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Friday, August 27, 2010 7:39 AM

Thanks for you so-dismissive summary Niki.

Charles Krauthammer Washingon Post article?
Dismissed as partisan snarking!

"Moderate" Muslim video about killing and torturing Gays under Islam?
Dismissed as a video showing the bad!

Read the Krathammer piece Niki. You'll never need to ask any questions again about the country's disdain for the liberal elite's self-imposed rightousness. We are sick of it and fed up with it. Tell me when you get it.

Watch the video and then tell me how these "moderate" Muslims' intolerance, torture, and murder of Gays squares with you and your beliefs.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 7:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
My dear, This site already has Auraptor. That you think you can debate these terds without vulgarity is nonsense. I am not here to debate these idiots I am here to call them stupid fucks. Are there no better sites to have civilized debate? I do it all for the lurkers...no-one here is going to change the country, no-one here is going to change policy, Kwicko and the like are either commies or so Liberal as to be beyond debate...fuck 'em...Haken thanks you for the views

This is like the 3rd or 4th time you've expressed these same thoughts to me Kman. Do I have to eternally 'splain things to you? Well I'm done with the "splainin'.

As for AuRaptor, I'm not trying to compete with him in any way. I do my thing and he does his and you do yours. Certainly there's room for all of us in here.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 7:53 AM

MINCINGBEAST

Quote:
Originally posted by Kane-ette:
Quote:

...no-one here is going to change the country, no-one here is going to change policy

this is a beautiful, nearly poetic reminder, of how impotent and trivial we all are.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 8:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Umm, why oh WHY do the mighty-righty-whiteys keep bringing up that Bali nightclub bombing.

Firstoff, it was a disaffected Balinese military officer, who turned himself in and confessed, including details only the bomber would know which the Bali authorities did NOT share with the US, for reasons which'll become clear in a minute...

And yet, we have ELEVEN guys we waterboarded till they "confessed" and the REASON we never threaten to hand them over to the Bali officials is cause they do NOT know those details, we're just torturing them till they say what we want as an excuse - shit, you waterboard someone a hundred-plus times like we did Khalid-Shiek-Muhammed, they'll confess to ANYTHING.

Eleven "confessions" all claiming sole responsibility and not a bloody fuckin one of em even knows what kind of explosive was used, despite it being in the goddamn original news reports... oh yeah, real convincing.

Enough with the fucking Bali-bullshit, ok, to our merry little torturers that's just the plus-one, like spitting on the sidewalk or resisting arrest, the joke charge to show their power as they lord it over their victim, is all.

Sorry, it just disgusts me that anyone would be stupid enough to mention it, knowing it's all but a fucking JOKE now, that our torture-techs think it's fucking FUNNY to get every victim they can to confess to it, to show off how they can break anyone into saying anything, flagrantly waving the obvious fact that guilt, innocence or proof no longer really matter to americans, who ignorantly cheer it on without realizing some day they too might be on the waterboard.

Dumb fucks.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 9:05 AM

STORYMARK

Just checking in to see if Rappy ever grew some conviction and posted that proof he said he could provide.

The answer:

NOPE!

Shocker.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, August 27, 2010 9:07 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

My dear, This site already has Auraptor.

Several of them, even. None more intelligent or honest than the original Rap'tard.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, August 27, 2010 10:57 AM

Quote:
Yes Charles I agree. The progressive elitists, those that lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, will soon be knocked off their high perch of self-imposed superiority.

... to be replaced with... ? Neo-con elitists, who will lecture us every day about what is right and wrong, from their high perch of self-proclaimed superiority?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

Is this the same era that close to 80% of republicans voted for the civil rights act while only 47% of democrats did.... in the senate? And similar % in the house. You seem to love ancient history. You know, the crusades, Bush, the sixties.....Keep it relevant.

Okay, so what's the relevance of 9/11 to this non-mosque? Remember, no going back to the past, to things like Bush or ancient history! If you take the past out of the equation, what's your problem with this community center?

Also, anyone stupid enough to think that Sharia law is coming to the U.S. if one community center is built, please raise your hands. Anybody?

It's a bogeyman, nothing more. Look at what Christians are doing to gays in Uganda. Is that confirmation of the way you'll all treat gays here in the U.S.? Shall we ban Christianity from this country for the horrific actions of some fucking idiots half a world away?

You people really do have no faith in your country at all, to think that it could or would fall so easily. You claim we have the strongest, BEST, most righteous country in the history of the world, and then claim that one community center will end that. You're either lying maliciously and deliberately (and we all know you are), or you're fucking incredibly stupid (and we all know you're that, too).

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 11:13 AM

Quote:
After watching this I my convert and worship Allah....fantastic law...this sharia...BUILD BABY BUILD.....BUILD BABY BUILD.....

Brilliant illustration and proof of my point, which is that religions tend to attract the whackos and psychopaths, who will use that religion's tenets to justify the vileness that's already in their souls. Hey, as long as you get to throw gays from buildings, it doesn't matter what the rest of the religion is about - YOU'RE IN!

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 12:05 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

RiverL, I was not dismissive of you, but of the article and video. I don’t have to read the article to know what it says. Merely “But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them." is sufficient to tell me it’s going to be the usual buzz words and talking points. You’ve heard the same sort of slurs from the left, surely you dismiss them out of hand? I understand your hatred of everything left and what you think of us; I don’t feel the same toward the right, but you’re entitled to your opinion. Nonetheless, there is no reason I need to READ that kind of stuff, any more than you would choose to read the kind of insanity lefty extremists write.

What you don’t get is that I wouldn’t read its equivalent from the LEFT, either, same reason I don’t watch that stupid “Joe Show” or whatever it is...oh, got it, “Ed Show”. I dismiss extremists and slander from BOTH sides as just what it is; pandering to the base in the worst possible way. “arrogant elitists”, “great unwashed”, “undisguised contempt”, "modicum of serious thought"...they say it all.

As for the video, you don’t get it: I DON’T LIKE ISLAM, I abhor what those in power within it have done what they have done to it. I HATE some of the tenants of Islam AS IT IS PRACTICED CURRENTLY. That has nothing to do with my acceptance of the fact that any and all religions can be and have been twisted to obtain an end.

I’m not defending Islam, as those on your end seem to be convinced I am, I’ve been trying to bring perspective, to say that my argument is that all religions can be and have been used as the means to an end, and many, many religious people can be manipulated to do things a rational person would abhor. Historically, that is true, end of story.

Today, it is Islam which is being twisted beyond recognition, but within our country, so has Christianity in some places. I detest it in both, but I don’t see Christianity as having “god on their side” any more than Islam or Judiasm OR BUDDHISM. We HAVE no god, so “he” can’t be on “our side”, "he" can't be used to justify jihad or crusade. We live within the greys, with the recognition that any human being would be different under different circumstances, in a different religion, country, etc.

We recognize the HUMANITY in all, and the ability for all to be turned to evil. That’s precisely why we follow the concept of looking to OURSELVES for what is right, not following any leader or religious authority figure supposedly interpreting the word of a god. When you take away those two things, it’s amazingly easy to recognize what is the right thing to do. Mostly: try to understand (that does NOT mean condone) and try to be compassionate (even to those who have been warped by what’s been instilled in them).

I’m not sure what’s meant by we already have Raptor...is Kane trying to say Raptor is reasonable? If so, that raises my eyebrows, as to me Raptor is just a slightly milder version of Kane. There’s no tolerance from either of them or Whozit, who is the worst in that he NEVER has any point, he just spews. I also don’t know what Kane has invested in trying to convince you to be nasty again, unless there is some sockpuppetry involved, and I’m not getting into THAT again. I have decided to take each poster as they post and will continue to do so; I’m here to converse, not play games. If someone is faking civility, I don't feel like I've been conned, I just appreciate the lack of ugliness and the ability to hear people's views. If they're NOT their views, that doesn't bother me either, they serve the purpose of furthering the conversation among those who ARE being real.

Obviously Kane is the opposite, from his own words. He's only here to slur and attack. He’s entitled, I have no control over anyone, as you have said of yourself, but it’s curious why he keeps harping on you. No more than that.

Yes, Mincing, I agree, and have made the point before. We are here to talk; some may believe they can instigate this or that action, but in reality we all have our own small little lives and all we have here are beliefs and opinions. They change nothing; they never will. I’m not sure why we do it, except it is in the nature of humans to be social and to communicate, and I enjoy it for the most part. But I have no illusions that it will CHANGE anything.

That said, I’m off to more interesting threads, if there are any. People have become so hung up on this COMMUNITY CENTER that it is sad; it’s overshadowing so many actually important things, and it’s only importance is in being a tool to stir up hatred and fear among the blind and easily manipulated, which is nothing new.

The proposed COMMUNITY CENTER is a community center; it has a room for prayer, which makes sense because Muslims need to pray several times a day. It isn't a hotbed of ANYTHING, except what's been injected into the minds, imaginations and fears of those opposing it. It has many more things which will be of value to the entire community; hence the term community center. To view it solely as a mosque is absurd; to view it as a hotbed of terrorism is absurd; to view it as a symbol of terrorists claiming victory over us, ditto. The VICTORY they will gain is the ability to say "see, we told you they hated us, we told you they were bigoted and hateful; come join us and fight them!"

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, August 27, 2010 12:58 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Whozit, who is the worst in that he NEVER has any point"

Hello,

Whozit sometimes has a point, buried somewhere between big ears and bagels. However, I understand wanting to avoid the signal to noise ratio on that channel.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 1:40 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Hey, ya threads still goin' I'm a bit of a forum noob and don't know how to put quotes in and such, but this is a response to Niki's response to me. (also I ain't read past that point yet)

Think I was mostly expressin' my frustration at trying to talk politics with the less inteligent of my liberal friends, which in hindsight wasn't entirely relevant to this thread and I apologize for that. Anyway Kwicko threw it right back at me twice, basically establishing the point (that was probably more or less already established) that those kinds of folks exist on both sides and I didn't respond after that cause I agreed.

I don't like it went discussions turn into childish label matches, but I do enjoy intelligent discussion with folks who disagree with me. I'm somewhat of an anthropologist at heart and I love to hear about what people believe and think and why the believe it when it's different from me and I usually view losing and argument like losing a chess match, an opportunity to learn more.

Anyway, just wanted to clear that up. I don't think usually the liberals are right but that doesn't mean I ignorantly dismiss everything about them on spite.

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Friday, August 27, 2010 3:14 PM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I don't like it went discussions turn into childish label matches, but I do enjoy intelligent discussion with folks who disagree with me.

Hi THT, welcome. I wish you all the best with that sentiment, I felt the same way initially, like I would learn something from people here, but so far it's been a mixed bag. People seem to come here to give and not receive, if you know what I mean, and once a thread gets derailed, forget it.
Take this subject for instance, almost 200 posts and nothing much has changed, people are entrenched, 200 posts of building those walls higher and higher.
One of the ironies I see is that the folks who are for the building of the COMMUNITY CENTER in general speak of "we shouldn't give into FEAR" and yet to me it's FEAR they are giving into. They seem stuck on the idea that everyone, Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists. If you aren't an Islam-o-phobe then you are "eccentric" or "lack conviction," and must be discounted. It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position - makes it easier?
Speaking of dislike, I think they still dislike America a bit, like they're still reeling from a George W hangover, and still feel shame. They were somewhat anti-America under W and they just haven't figured out how to get past it. Now, any behavior that can be remotely connected to Bush-like behavior gives them flashbacks and stirs up those old feelings, makes them afraid that even with Reverso Bush (Obama) things haven't really changed that much.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, August 27, 2010 3:51 PM

Quote:
It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position - makes it easier?
Speaking of dislike, I think they still dislike America a bit, like they're still reeling from a George W hangover, and still feel shame. They were somewhat anti-America under W and they just haven't figured out how to get past it.

Speaking of hanging your ugly mask on things... Now anyone who defends freedom of religion dislikes America, huh?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:36 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Pizmo,

You just complained that people assume the opponents in this debate are operating irrationally on triggers of emotion.

Then you explained how your opponents are operating irrationally on triggers of emotion.

Are you poking fun? Having a bit of a laugh?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, August 28, 2010 7:02 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Pizmo,

You just complained that people assume the opponents in this debate are operating irrationally on triggers of emotion.

Then you explained how your opponents are operating irrationally on triggers of emotion.

Are you poking fun? Having a bit of a laugh?

--Anthony

It is ironical isn't it? Sometimes it's like people are pointing and yelling at themselves in a mirror.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, August 28, 2010 7:17 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

So, I'm afraid of creating an atmosphere of persecution that may lead to a practice of 'rights by convenience.'

What emotion is guiding you?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Saturday, August 28, 2010 7:20 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

For me it HAS been a mixed bag, but I’ve still learned a ton from the rational posters and now learned how easy it is to ignore those who have nothing to say but to spew attacks. I should have used the other post as my example, which post filled me with pride at how people were staying on point and making such wonderful points. In THAT one, those who come in from the right with snarks far outweighed the rational posters, but that’s neither here nor there.

Pizmo, if you expect debates here to change minds, then I can certainly understand your frustration, but am sad at your misunderstanding. No discussions will change most people’s minds; mine hasn’t been changed, but it’s been modified in many ways by a point here or there, and I appreciate it. Also, threads often get off track then someone brings them back and, if The Uglies aren’t around, it goes on to be an interesting thread. Not always, but more than 50% of the time, from what I’ve observed.

And no, it’s far from fear we feel who believe the COMMUNITY CENTER should be allowed to be built. It’s the fact that we can see (I believe more clearly) that it’s the right thing to do in that it upholds the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the principles upon which this country was founded. Examples: The failure to do that is something with which we disagree; the concept that “NO government sticking their nose in our lives” coupled with the lack of logic of government deciding a woman’s right to choose. “INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS!” contrasted with the idea that it’s perfectly okay to demand a citizen’s papers or throw them in jail if they don’t have them until someone else can prove they’re a citizen. “PROPERTY RIGHTS” contrasted with the fervent willingness to throw them out the window when it’s something with which those screaming it don’t agree. “SOCIALISM!” contrasted with “Don’t touch my Medicare!” “EQUAL RIGHTS!” happily tossed out the window when it’s something with which they disagree. “The CONSTITUTION IS TO BE REVERED!” unless it’s something they want to amend or take out. And on and on; the dichotomy makes their cries sound foolish, while the other side tends to uphold all that we are built on, even when it’s uncomfortable. THAT’s why we defend their right to build it; the Beloved Constitution upholds both property rights and religious freedom, yet the foaming at the mouth to ignore BOTH of those is sad to see.

The other reason isn’t fear either, it’s the recognition that stopping the building of the COMMUNITY CENTER sends a message which HELPS the terrorists people are so afraid of in their efforts to recruit, by giving a perfect example that we ARE intolerant and filled with hate, precisely what they accuse us of. It shows our basest nature, it goes against everything America SAYS it stands for, and it’s shameful and counter-productive.

The fact is that the only reasons the COMMUNITY CENTER is being reviled is FEAR that it will be used as a weapon (which it can’t...9/11 was hatched in HAMBURG, what makes people think terrorists would NEED somewhere that will be under serious scrutiny when they could hatch their plans in secret ANYWHERE else?), that it’s “insensitive” (which only makes the sore of 9/11 deeper insofar as people can’t become acquainted with REAL Muslims, can’t utilize facilities which they would find useful, can’t increase their understanding) and the mere fact that it’s a MUSLIM building (which reflects the growing anti-Islam prejudice being fanned by people with an entirely different agenda).. None of those are valid or logical, but we can only watch helplessly and speak up against the fear, hatred and true INSENSITIVITY this movement represents.

Another lie is that anyone believes

Quote:
Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists. If you aren't an Islam-o-phobe then you are "eccentric" or "lack conviction," and must be discounted. It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position

There ARE those who believe that, it’s shown even here much less in the larger world, but nobody thinks for a minute that it’s for the reasons you stated. The preponderance of overblown misstatements presented as fact is one thing which makes arguments totally irrelevant. More accurate would be that many believe those who are against it have been manipulated to believe things that aren’t true (like that it’s a “mosque”) and are reacting out of that propaganda. On the side in favor of letting it be built, there ARE those who believe those against it are exactly what you described, but I think they’re no more a majority than those who DO reflect fear and hatred...and I don’t know anyone who thinks that makes them “eccentric” or lacking in conviction. Lack of conviction is the LAST thing I think about those opposing the COMMUNITY CENTER!

As to the “ugly mask”, how many have you seen right here who say those of us in favor of letting the COMMUNITY CENTER be built are “Muslim huggers”, “Islam apologists” and numerous other accusations of ugliness? Just your remark that it indicates we dislike America is a prime example of that mentality; that if we believe in standing by what this nation espouses as its beliefs means we are anti-American...how many times have we heard that? The concept that one can love one’s country and yet not be blind to its faults seems to be incomprehensible to some, and any dissent at all gets us labeled as anti-American and even terrorist SYMPATHIZERS!

I agree with Mike; the irony that you talk about ugly masks, then accuse those you disagree with as disliking our country is a pretty ugly mask...to say those of us who disagreed with what Bush did to this country are/were anti-American is about as ugly as you can get, and is exactly what we were accused of whenever we disagreed with his policies! You kinda defeated any relevance to what you said by utilizing that old tactic.

I love America...very dearly. I’m sometimes really proud of our country in many of the things it has done. I will not allow that, however, to blind me to the bad things we’ve done, the bad things our government has done to US, or that there is need for improvement. To you and those like you, that means I’m anti-American; the lack of logic in that belief is sad...it says quite clearly “Agree with me or get out” and speaks of a black-and-white mentality which has harmed our country, rather than helped it.

Anthony, I have no doubt he’s not poking fun or having a laugh; we’ve heard all this so often, it’s a stereotype with which we should all be familiar by now. It’s just sad, and would be perplexing if we weren’t also familiar with the close-mindedness that goes into it.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, August 28, 2010 7:25 AM

http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

With regard to the dichotomy of RWA thinking, of which I gave examples, I again offer:

Quote:
A filing cabinet or a computer can store quite inconsistent notions and never lose a minute of sleep over their contradiction. Similarly a high RWA can have all sorts of illogical, self-contradictory, and widely refuted ideas rattling around in various boxes in his brain, and never notice it.

Quote:
Authoritarians’ ideas are poorly integrated with one another. It’s as if each idea is stored in a file that can be called up and used when the authoritarian wishes, even though another of his ideas--stored in a different file-- basically contradicts it. We all have some inconsistencies in our thinking, but authoritarians can stupify you with the inconsistency of their ideas. Thus they may say they are proud to live in a country that guarantees freedom of speech, but another file holds, “My country, love it or leave it.” The ideas were copied from trusted sources, often as sayings, but the authoritarian has never “merged files” to see how well they all fit together.

http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

The arguments made against property rights and freedom of religion in this debate, as well as the most recent post, reflect this perfectly.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, August 28, 2010 10:28 AM

FREMDFIRMA

The problem with a lot of attempts to discuss or debate anything, is the prevalence of a type of conditioning I call Loopthink.

You see, when they're "in the loop", it really is pointless to even try logic, reason and debate, because no cognitive thought is actually occuring.

Loopthink is a set of conditioned reflex responses that work in a fashion similar to a BASIC programs GOSUB routine loop, in how they bypass the actual thought process to a more or less pre-programmed subroutine.

Usually triggered by a word, phrase or thought-concept.

And therein lies the problem, any actual cognitive process is mostly bypassed by that loop you see, and it takes a real heavy spike to knock that sideways off the rails, which is one reason I tend to get explosively nasty to someone who's gone into loopthink, cause it's the only way to knock them off the rails and make them THINK, sort of like a BREAK key.

Worse, this crap is addictive cause it tends to be trained in early by the parents and reinforced by local school/community, to the point where completing the loop kicks off that good ole dopeamine reward, just like a doggy feels happy once you've trained em to do tricks and they pull one off - the constant repetition and praise cycle creates that reflex.

That's been used in more ugly ways too, the LEAP program was about conditioning that cycle for violent action, which included the stimulating rush of adrenals and suchlike on top of the repetition and reward sequencing.

Thing is, it's not a railroad so much as a path of least resistance, like a rut the thought patterns fall into, even in the face of overwhelming evidence or logic, they'll run that way cause, again, it's a conditioned reflex, and no damn accident either.

It's possible to run against it, but that's a lot like breaking a drug addiction or cult programming in that firstoff, going "off the rails" is scary and uncomfortable for them, AND will include the ridicule and probably retaliation of most of their social circle on top of it, and the lure is very powerful - especially when they will seek out reprogramming via immersion in the message of whatever conditioner they favor (talk radio, a certain talking head, church, etc) in a bizarre form of confirmation bias to avoid ever having to face a truth that is more ugly than the fear and discomfort and alienation....

That they've built their whole existence on lies.

Most folk, even fairly strong of will, hit that point and make a rapid U-turn and dive right back onto the rails as fast as they can, they can't hack it - it's been said that one of the cruelest things you can do to a person is destroy their illusions, and maybe that is so...

But when those illusions turn them into monsters, or supporters of monsters, that's a bridge too far, unacceptable, unforgiveable.

And of course, the further down THAT road they go, the harder turning back becomes because how can a person possibly live with the knowledge of such responsibility for inflicting horror on thier fellow man, and at the time ENJOYING every second of it ?

And so they cling to the illusion, no matter how tattered and broken it becomes - it's the perfect self-perpetuating trap, because not only do they cling to that conditioning, they inflict in upon their children.

And if it fails to take, or stick - yes, they will even turn on and begin to hate thier own kids, which is, at the root of it, how at least a quarter of those kids in the hellcamps wound up there.

Nor is it any one ideology, religion, political faction or what have you that uses this trickery, since children are conditioned TO accept it in grade school in order to make them easy to manipulate - John Taylor Gatto has tons of very well-referenced information on that, and that it was and has always been, completely intentional.

But it occured before that, since it was the concept and foundation of most religion, the ability to teach people to bypass rational thought with conditioned thought-loop responses, seriously, WATCH a sermon from most beliefs and you can see it in action if you have enough mental and emotional distance to see it for what it is, the military uses it, hell, even sports teams do - it's never just a byword, catch phrase or slogan, it's a goddamn trigger, you understand ?

It's also, for someone clever enough, not too hard to use those verbal cue-triggers to set off a total mental meltdown by causing diametrically opposite thoughtloops to crash into one another by provoking one, then another before the first is completed, like a psychotic engineer throwing a track switch that sends one train head-on with another.

Anyways, that's as best I can explain it at all, it takes all the very worst of cult programming, drug addiction and social conditioning and combines it into this fucking gestalt - something which our own alphabet goons were very keen on researching and applying, but never quite figured it out because they themselves were ALREADY victims of it, and therefore unable to see it from a wholly external viewpoint.

Not sure if alla that will make sense, but I tried.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, August 28, 2010 2:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

RiverL, I was not dismissive of you, but of the article and video. I don’t have to read the article to know what it says. Merely “But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them." is sufficient to tell me it’s going to be the usual buzz words and talking points. You’ve heard the same sort of slurs from the left, surely you dismiss them out of hand?

I didn't imply that I thought you were dismissive of me, so no clarification is necessary. I knew you were dismissing the Krauthammer piece and the video on face value, largely out of your ideological instinct to do so. You quoted the end of the article which was a prediction and a summary, but admittedly you didn't read the case presented in the entire article to arrive at that position. I didn't consider what Krauthammer said to be slurs, more like an expression of so many people's anger with the way the country is going now, along with the arrogant way that Liberals label any opposition to that horribly wrong direction as being racist, or any of a host of other bad labels they apply at will to suit any situation for themselves.

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Sunday, August 29, 2010 10:53 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Nikki - Congratulations - a 1200+ word rambling extra crispy post from you and you managed to misattribute, misquote, misinterpret and misunderstand just about every thing I posted. I think you actually came up with new ways to be wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Pizmo, if you expect debates here to change minds, then I can certainly understand your frustration, but am sad at your misunderstanding. No discussions will change most people’s minds; mine hasn’t been changed, but it’s been modified in many ways by a point here or there, and I appreciate it.

This is the only thing I agree with you on. You definitely come here with a closed mind, quoting you again: "No discussions will change most people’s minds; mine hasn’t been changed." Says it all, there's only Niki's way.
Please review Frem's post about people living inside loops.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, August 29, 2010 10:55 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Awww,we can't let this one die, can we?

Frem: Right on. I'll try to remember your "pre-programmed loop", it's a perfect description.

RL, there is NO way I dismiss anything out of any "ideological instinct". I don't work on instinct, which in some cases differentiates me from the knee-jerk response some on left and right express. I read at least the beginning of most links, and if I think they have something valid to say, I read them all.

WHEN I come up against things like "arrogant elitists”, “great unwashed”, “undisguised contempt”, "modicum of serious thought". and “because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them” at the very BEGINNING of a piece, of course I don’t read further; the bias is blatantly obvious!

Would you continue to read if you came up against “Those Republicans who are inciting the Tea Party crowds at these outdoor 'klansmen' rallies...or “Sarah Palin and the entire Republican Party are the real terrorists here-encouraging people to reload and arm themselves with bricks” or "These Republicans may as well be caged animals in the Zoo, they are acting irrationally” or “Republics are idiots, programed robots for buzz words and have no concept of how government is run”, would YOU read any further?

I wish you’d give me the benefit of at least some intelligence and leave off the slurs...they’re certainly better than what you used to do, but comparing remarks to me with remarks I read in other posts, they’re only relatively better.

Quote:
Liberals label any opposition to that horribly wrong direction as being racist, or any of a host of other bad labels they apply at will to suit any situation for themselves

isn’t much better.

Painting all liberals with the same politispeak derrogatories doesn't mean that all of us fit the same mold, or that even the MAJORITY of us fit the aspersions with which you vilify us.

I TRY to find articles which aren’t slanted, or at least aren’t slanted so obviously and present FACTS within them. I realize you despise anything liberal or Democrat rather violently; despite that I check out links you post, but invariably they offer little but denigration of both, in which I have no interest. I’m sorry you can’t accept that, but I think my reasons are valid.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:05 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Pizmo, I fail to see where I misunderstood what you wrote...unless it was sarcastic.

You said it was "fear" that made us want to allow the COMMUNITY CENTER to be built. I explained how it was not fear at all and told you what it is for me and I believe most people who don't oppose it.

I explained how "Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists" is untrue.

You said we "disliked America", which I refuted and told you how I feel about America, which I've heard others express as well (including thoughtful Republican friends who don't call me "terrorist" or "Anti-American" for my beliefs).

I would add that no, we're not "afraid" that Obama is Bush Lite, we recognize it and we speak up about it. So we have nothing to "fear" from that, because we agree.

How any of that "misquotes", "misinterprets" or "misunderstands" anything you wrote is beyond me. They are YOUR words I quoted, and if somehow it was possible to misunderstand or misinterpret them, I would appreciate you clarifying.

I did misspeak in saying my mind hadn't been changed. I meant about the COMMUNITY CENTEr; my mind has been changed and I have learned many things on many other subjects.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:15 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position - makes it easier?
Speaking of dislike, I think they still dislike America a bit, like they're still reeling from a George W hangover, and still feel shame. They were somewhat anti-America under W and they just haven't figured out how to get past it.

Speaking of hanging your ugly mask on things... Now anyone who defends freedom of religion dislikes America, huh?

Silly Kwiksdraw - freedom of religion is one of the great founding principles... even if I believed that (I don't) do you really think I would make such a simple error? Your desire to connect the two most disparate and damaging dots is kind of a bad habit.

Obviously, I shouldn't have casually tossed that stink bomb out there without e-splainin' just a little more. Mea culpa,
Remember the W years? I actually thought he started out pretty good, the country was on a knife edge right after 9/11 and an unsteady response from 42 would have been the next worst thing. But he was steady and delivered a solid speech and I was impressed (first time) - he won a lot of points from me for that.
Then the next 6 years happened and we invaded Iraq. I disliked our foreign policies, I was not keen on our domestic policies, I did not like the people surrounding our central government, and I really lost faith in our POTUS. You can love something and not like it very much and that's how I felt about the US - I have very high expectations for the country and it seemed under Bush we were headed in the wrong direction.
So yeah, you could say I disliked the US, kind of like when your home team makes stupid trades and hires an idiot coach and plays like shit. "Come On!"
So, did you like America then? Remember the frustration, the human rights violations? Remember how it seemed like it might never end? That's what I think some people tapped into on the mosque silliness, "not again."

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:41 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Pizmo, I fail to see where I misunderstood what you wrote...unless it was sarcastic.

You said it was "fear" that made us want to allow the COMMUNITY CENTER to be built.

No I didn't. I said you feared those that opposed the MOSQUE THING, that you feared it was more of the same Bush era human rights issues. Read my post to Mike.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I explained how "Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists" is untrue.

You misquoted here, you left off the first part, ""They SEEM stuck on the idea that everyone, Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists." It does change the meaning. I said that because using the common sense argument and quoting many others from many different walks of life who also thought: "it's a bad idea" were being ignored. Also, see my quotes from HK below that generated that thought. Maybe you didn't see those earlier, it's a long thread.

You also misspoke:

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Another lie is that anyone believes
Quote:
Every Single Person who thinks it's a bad idea MUST hate Islam or think all Muslims are terrorists. If you aren't an Islam-o-phobe then you are "eccentric" or "lack conviction," and must be discounted. It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position
There ARE those who believe that, it’s shown even here much less in the larger world, but nobody thinks for a minute that it’s for the reasons you stated. The preponderance of overblown misstatements presented as fact is one thing which makes arguments totally irrelevant. More accurate would be that many believe those who are against it have been manipulated to believe things that aren’t true (like that it’s a “mosque”) and are reacting out of that propaganda. On the side in favor of letting it be built, there ARE those who believe those against it are exactly what you described, but I think they’re no more a majority than those who DO reflect fear and hatred...and I don’t know anyone who thinks that makes them “eccentric” or lacking in conviction. Lack of conviction is the LAST thing I think about those opposing the COMMUNITY CENTER!

Lie? I quoted HK: "If Islam doesn't = terrorist, then what in god's name is the problem with an Islamic Center ANYWHERE? And Pizmo, you may have some terribly ECCENTRIC and personal reason for opposing this building, but if you look at Kaneman's "face of the GOP" the reason is clear as summer rain: Islam = terrorist."
HK: "However, the difference between "opposing" a thing and thinking something is "a bad idea" seems mostly a matter of conviction."

More error:

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
You said we "disliked America", which I refuted and told you how I feel about America, which I've heard others express as well (including thoughtful Republican friends who don't call me "terrorist" or "Anti-American" for my beliefs).

Where the fuck did I call you a terrorist????

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I would add that no, we're not "afraid" that Obama is Bush Lite, we recognize it and we speak up about it. So we have nothing to "fear" from that, because we agree.

How any of that "misquotes", "misinterprets" or "misunderstands" anything you wrote is beyond me. They are YOUR words I quoted, and if somehow it was possible to misunderstand or misinterpret them, I would appreciate you clarifying.

I did misspeak in saying my mind hadn't been changed. I meant about the COMMUNITY CENTEr; my mind has been changed and I have learned many things on many other subjects.

You're even pointing out to yourself where you misspoke.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:51 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

So, I'm afraid of creating an atmosphere of persecution that may lead to a practice of 'rights by convenience.'

What emotion is guiding you?

Thanks for asking Anthony and not assuming.

Emotion? Shouldn't that be kept out of politics?

"I'm afraid of creating an atmosphere of persecution that may lead to a practice of 'rights by convenience.' "

I'm not afraid of that - I think we're too loud and opinionated of a society for us to fall into that. But I guess that's all in the eye of the beholder.

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Monday, August 30, 2010 11:43 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay, Pizmo. Originally you wrote

Quote:
One of the ironies I see is that the folks who are for the building of the COMMUNITY CENTER in general speak of "we shouldn't give into FEAR" and yet to me it's FEAR they are giving into.

Nowhere in there does it say those in favor of the COMMUNITY CENTER fear their opponents, only that it’s fear we’re giving into.

Quote:
I said you feared those that opposed the MOSQUE THING, that you feared it was more of the same Bush era human rights issues

You didn’t say that, you just said it was fear they were giving into. I interpreted that as fear of the Muslim world because of the connection to Muslims, so my response was appropriate for what you wrote. Left it wide open to interpretation, and nowhere did you say we FEARED the opponents of the COMMUNITY CENTER, just what it seemed to you was how people in favor of the COMMUNITY CENTER saw them.[

Nonetheless, I still disagree about those opposing the COMMUNITY CENTER; for myself, it’s certainly not fear, more disgust and dismay. I don’t actually think those people will get into power—some of them might and can certainly make a mess of things, but when it comes to Muslims, I thought Bush was decent, and am dismayed that ever since we got a Black man in office, the right has played up the “hate ‘the other’” card for all they’re worth. It sickens me, it doesn’t scare me, and it’s not why I am in favor of the COMMUNITY CENTER...I’m in favor of it because I believe it’s RIGHT.

I’ll accept that the caveat “seem” changes the meaning. But it’s still questionable in my mind. you continued on making a flat statement:

Quote:
If you aren't an Islam-o-phobe then you are "eccentric" or "lack conviction," and must be discounted.

So I’ll change that to “it SEEMS like you’re saying...” And my response was that there ARE people who reflect your description exactly. I don’t know about “eccentric”, and I certainly question “lack conviction”, given that’s the opposite of what I’ve observed. But “islamophobe” is something which some people opposed to the COMMUNITY CENTER certainly do represent. So I’ll grant you the “seem” and let it go at that.

No error: You DID say we disliked America, twice even. I didn’t say YOU called me a terrorist, I have heard it over and over from the right, especially during Bush’s time in office: that anyone who disagreed with his policies was anti-American; anyone who argued for the rights of detainees or such were “terrorist sympathizers” or just plain terrorists. They also say we hate America, which, lessening the accusation to “dislike”, doesn’t change the meaning much.

As to my “misspeaking”, in actuality I didn’t...I didn’t CLARIFY that I was talking about my mind not being changed about the COMMUNITY CENTER...that’s not misspeaking. That you misunderstood it to mean in all ways is a simple mistake, it’s semantics, neither person’s fault.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:05 AM