Another 'Religion of Peace' moment, brought to you by.....yep, ISLAM! by AURaptor

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
No error: You DID say we disliked America, twice even. I didn’t say YOU called me a terrorist, I have heard it over and over from the right, especially during Bush’s time in office: that anyone who disagreed with his policies was anti-American; anyone who argued for the rights of detainees or such were “terrorist sympathizers” or just plain terrorists. They also say we hate America, which, lessening the accusation to “dislike”, doesn’t change the meaning much.

Yup. Pizmo claimed that we "dislike" America, which is patently untrue, and something he or she would have no way of knowing one way or the other anyway, unless we (all of us, any of us) came right out and said we disliked America.

What I actually said before you decided I said something else was:

"Speaking of dislike, I think they still dislike America a bit, like they're still reeling from a George W hangover, and still feel shame."

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

My wife squeezes the toothpaste tube from the middle. Drives me nuts, it does. I dislike that she does that, but I still love my wife. How can that be? How can one dislike the things another does, yet still love them?

Bush did things that I thought were to the great detriment of our country. I hated many of the things he did; I never hated my country though. That's an authoritarian streak that seems to run only through the right wing, this idea that if you oppose a President and his illegal wars, you hate your country.

I was *embarrassed* for my country, but only because we had a really horrible president who was trying to do things to destroy our nation and hurt its people. But I always loved the country itself, even while I felt an intense dislike for the occupant of the Oval Office. I actually can dislike the man in the office without hating the office itself, or by extension, the country.

So you equate dislike with hate? So waterboarding *embarrassed* you? Did you giggle just a little and then feel bad?

I even took the time to add extra explanation:

"You can love something and not like it very much and that's how I felt about the US - I have very high expectations for the country and it seemed under Bush we were headed in the wrong direction.
So yeah, you could say I disliked the US, kind of like when your home team makes stupid trades and hires an idiot coach and plays like shit. "Come On!"
So, did you like America then? Remember the frustration, the human rights violations? Remember how it seemed like it might never end? That's what I think some people tapped into on the mosque silliness, "not again.""

So bonus explaining on my part, and bonus misunderstanding on yours. Seriously why bother replying?

In our AZ immigration thread you had to characterize me as a racist when we disagreed, and now you have to misquote and characterize me as authoritarian and right wing - and again wrong. Funny, you keep confirming what I've been saying: you have to try and uglify anyone that disagrees with you - childish.

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:06 AM

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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Aww, c'mon...surely we can get to 200 posts if we really TRY...

And then some.

300 is so close...

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:39 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Pizmo, you said more than just what Mike quoted, and it definitely gave the impression you had made up your mind that "we" disliked America. For some of the reasons you explained that you disliked it during the Bush Administration. But that doesn't mean it's how we feel/felt.

Quote:
So, did you like America then? Remember the frustration, the human rights violations? Remember how it seemed like it might never end? That's what I think some people tapped into on the mosque silliness, "not again."

I certainly understand how you felt, but that is not a reason to ascribe the same feelings to everyone who is in favor of the COMMUNITY CENTER. In your post, you didn't say "some people"; you're qualifying and explaining now, but the responses you got were to what you originally posted.

What you actually said also included “still dislike America”, which means you assume we DID previously. Also, the complete quote is:

Quote:
Speaking of dislike, I think they still dislike America a bit, like they're still reeling from a George W hangover, and still feel shame. They were somewhat anti-America under W and they just haven't figured out how to get past it. Now, any behavior that can be remotely connected to Bush-like behavior gives them flashbacks and stirs up those old feelings, makes them afraid that even with Reverso Bush (Obama) things haven't really changed that much.

The underlined part is a flat statement, no modifying “seems” or “I think” or anything else. You can’t castigate us for interpreting what you said the way we did, because that’s what you WROTE.

This

Quote:
It's like they have to hang the same ugly mask on anyone that disagrees with their position - makes it easier?

is the most ironic part, because what you accused “us” of is pretty much hanging the ugly mask of anti-Americanism, plus descriptions of flashbacks, etc., in the same paragraph. That many, if not most, of us are more focused on the Constitutional rights of freedom of religion and property rights, not to mention the fact that IT’S NOT A MOSQUE and that the signal it actually sends is that we hate Islam and are intolerant and fearful (great enlistment points for extremists), has been interpreted by you as “fear” of Bushism, which is erroneous. I’m not saying some don’t feel that way, but I don’t know any of them and I certainly don’t.

I didn't dislike AMERICA through the Bush Presidency at all. I felt just like Mike...for me it was a matter of "SHIT! How could they have elected HIM?!?" and I had a bumper sticker reading "How could 52 million people be so stupid?"

But he was a President, he didn't represent the country...in fact he represented pretty much the OPPOSITE of what America stands for, to me. There are always Presidents...they can't screw us up for much more than 8 years and they "aren't" America in total. So no, I very much didn't dislike my country; I marched and protested and waited for him to go, and in the meantime was embararssed and frustrated by his administration. There's a big difference.

Millions of us felt that way...check out "I'm Sorry Everybody" at http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/1/ I found that way back during Bush's first term; it's a gallery of Americans holding up signs apologizing to the rest of the world for Bush. I never forgot the one that said "It's okay, just don't do it again" in it's sister website from the world "Apology Accepted". Then "we" went and re-elected him. Man, that was embarrassing!

Your characterizations show that it is YOU who fits your descriptions in this thread:

Quote:
you have to try and uglify anyone that disagrees with you – childish

Quote:
You definitely come here with a closed mind

and

Quote:
Says it all, there's only Niki's way. Please review Frem's post about people living inside loops.

are the only “uglifying” terms I see in Mike’s and my exchanges with you, and they’re used by YOU.

As to

Quote:
So waterboarding *embarrassed* you? Did you giggle just a little and then feel bad?

That’s uncalled for. Personally I was disgusted, furious and felt helpless...none of that had to do with how I felt about America itself. I’ve traveled, I’ve lived in the most backward country in the world (at that time). I treasure being an American and feel blessed my mother immigrated here, or I’d have been born a Frenchwoman. The idea horrifies me!

I hope we can let this lie; we interpreted what you wrote because what it said was pretty clear as to what you believed. You’ve further explained, and now we understand what you were trying to say. None of that gives you any reasons to call us names or denigrate us.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:50 AM

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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I hope we can let this lie;

Oh my God please let this lie. I promise this is my last post... even my last one wasn't to you.

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:29 AM

Pizmo, I've posted numerous arguments making my case for going ahead with the community center in NYC and you haven't--to my knowledge, nobody here has--made a single reasoned refutation of any of it. It's just plug their ears, tell me black is white, and now you post another hysterical b.s.-packed video from Mr. Bug-eyes. Et tu, Pizmo?

I said that the difference between thinking something was "a bad idea" and opposing it was a matter of "conviction." You're saying it's not? You think it's a bad idea, but you support it? Are you making the fine distinction of supporting their right to do it and yet thinking it's a bad idea? Forgive me if that is really where you're at, which is perfectly reasonable, but you have been oddly and continually vague about just where you stand on this matter. And that's your right, but don't be surprised when folks misread your mixed signals.

Meanwhile, I've somehow implied that you hate Muslims? No, I was saying that next to Islam = terrorist, your argument, whatever it is, doesn't stand a chance. What I was sayin' was that the opposition to the building would have ZERO TRACTION if not for the rabid anti-Islamic sentiment that's swept across this nation in the last month. This controversy exists because of it. Without that, your "I think it's a bad idea" would just be some guy's opinion (hence the word, "eccentric") and the thing would be going ahead as planned having been approved by the City of New York nearly A YEAR AGO.

As to ol' Bug-eyes here:

Quote:
We all know that if Islam can get away with a stunt like this in American, it can get away with anything!

That, right at the top of the video is infuriatingly absurd. In this context, "anything" has to include Sharia Law, public stonings, and another 9/11 terror attack and I need to know HOW IN THE

building a place of worship, like any other religious group in this country, would lead to this guy's "anything." Allowing them to build the community center is just that. They wanna start committing crimes, they will be dealt with then--how does "letting them get away" with this, lead to us letting them get away with anything not also covered by the Bill of Rights?

Why do folk on your side of the debate see Islam as this single, monolithic conspiracy, when it's convenient to do so, then double back and point out the Muslims who oppose the building? Why can't people realize that the majority of Muslims in this country have come to our shores SPECIFICALLY to escape the authoritarian regimes of their homelands, like so many other immigrants throughout our nation's history? Islam is many different sects and cultures and any blanket statement about "what this mosque means to them" is de facto horse flop. Many of you have posted a variety of Muslim opinions that oppose the community center, and yet folks insist on talking about what the mosque means to Islam. WTF?

Now, o' course, we've heard form the Taliban and they, o' course, encourage us to prevent the community center from being built because that supports their narrative about the United States.

Quote:
There is a difference between practicing your religion, which everyone has the right to do, and rubbing your religion in people's faces as a triumphalist political statement, which is what's happening here.

And how exactly does he know this? Has ANYONE associated with the community center said ANYTHING remotely close to this sentiment? Has the FBI intercepted secret memos celebrating "Islamic triumphalism (whatever that is)?" And commonsensical cynicism about American motives and the well-worn idea that American foreign policy contributed to the events of 9/11 don't count. Glenn Beck and Ron Paul and others have said as much themselves, all upstanding Americans.

Quote:
I'd be interested to know just how bad an insult has to be before it's no longer protected by the first amendment.

This, this is bloody priceless! LMAO This guy obviously has no understanding of American values--why, oh why, do y'all give this crank play? You should be embarrassed to post this lunatic's ill informed anti-American ranting.

Quote:
...it will overlook the scene of conquest...

Not even true, it's 2 blocks away, which means it's blocked by two blocks worth of buildings. Melodrama and lies.

Quote:
Nobody knows where the money is coming from.

Boiler-plate innuendo and demonstrably false. Just ask FOX News where the money's coming from.

Quote:
...and he blames America for 9/11...

And here we are again with this b.s. talking point. This is the saddest part for me. When is America going to take responsibility for herself instead of blaming all the piss-ant little countries that we so blithely stomp on at will? I'm not talking about taking the blame, I'm talking about growing up and actually taking into account the consequences of our own actions. When?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:53 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Most eloquent, Cav, and pretty much all there REALISTICALLY is to say. I feel your frustration through the ether, and I agree wholeheartedly. "You're a stronger man than I am, Gunga Din", 'cuz I couldn't get past that "get away with anything" line, it had made my stomach roil quite enough by then.

By the way, I, too, would like to hear a logical, constitutional, legal reason for opposing the COMMUNITY CENTER. If there is such a thing.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 3:43 AM

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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Pizmo, I've posted numerous arguments making my case for going ahead with the community center in NYC and you haven't--to my knowledge, nobody here has--made a single reasoned refutation of any of it. It's just plug their ears, tell me black is white, and now you post another hysterical b.s.-packed video from Mr. Bug-eyes. Et tu, Pizmo?

I actually made plenty of reasoned refutations against it, even quoted the nytimes quoting muslims from around the globe making reasoned comments against it, but you SEEM stuck on the extremists opposition view only.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I said that the difference between thinking something was "a bad idea" and opposing it was a matter of "conviction." You're saying it's not? You think it's a bad idea, but you support it? Are you making the fine distinction of supporting their right to do it and yet thinking it's a bad idea? Forgive me if that is really where you're at, which is perfectly reasonable, but you have been oddly and continually vague about just where you stand on this matter. And that's your right, but don't be surprised when folks misread your mixed signals.

I have absolute conviction that building the community center is a bad idea for muslims and non-muslims.
My first post on the subject:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=44879

quote:
"The First Amendment protects freedom of religion," Manley said. "Sen. Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else."

That sums it up for me.

I was surprised that O. said anything on this now - let New York and Bloomberg fight it out - but I guess considering the occasion of the dinner he had to say something, and of course the repubs would whine about anything he'd say.

I can't help but think a better solution would have been for him to "appeal" to the people that want to build the mosque to build it elsewhere ("with all due respect, it would be better for all muslims in the US if you do"), try and make both sides happy, come out an undisputed hero all the way around, and win some votes in Nov. If they refused the onus would be on them, "I tried... but our constitution is clear on this..." which he said except for the I tried part.
That place will be a target either way, I'd stay clear on the day that there aren't protestors out front." /quote

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Meanwhile, I've somehow implied that you hate Muslims? No, I was saying that next to Islam = terrorist, your argument, whatever it is, doesn't stand a chance. What I was sayin' was that the opposition to the building would have ZERO TRACTION if not for the rabid anti-Islamic sentiment that's swept across this nation in the last month. This controversy exists because of it. Without that, your "I think it's a bad idea" would just be some guy's opinion (hence the word, "eccentric") and the thing would be going ahead as planned having been approved by the City of New York nearly A YEAR AGO.

"...the rabid anti-Islamic sentiment that's swept across this nation in the last month."

How are you quantifying that?? By what you see on tv? I kind of agree in that it wouldn't be as big of a story if the Media didn't have that angle to play up, that's the engine that drives the story, but it's not the whole story.
I was pleased to see David Gergen speaking about this on cnn. He said, "there are plenty of pro-muslim people who are anti-mosque." (as in not rabid anti-islamists) He also debunked the polls that show what appears to be a shocking percent of Americans believing Obama's a muslim and puts Islam ahead of America. "Pure Politics. Republicans that are polled are going to anything to denigrate him... they could ask, "do you think Obama killed Elvis?" and they'd say yes." (Think of what AURaptor would reply if he was polled) Americans by and large have proven themselves to be a tolerant nation." I agree.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
As to ol' Bug-eyes here:

As far as this guy... he's on youtube so you have to take everything he says with a grain of salt (just like the media) because there's tons of money to be made with popular youtube videos. FOR THE RECORD: I don't agree with everything he says, I don't know how anyone could because it would be a long time checking his all of his claims, but I LOVE the fact that he's saying it. I don't think any religion should be untouchable (which Islam seems to think it should be) - I think all religions should be similarly challenged.

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 5:47 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else"

Hello,

So, I am afraid that an atmosphere of persecution will lead to an observance of 'rights by convenience.'

What emotion is driving you?

--Anthony

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 5:52 AM

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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else"

Hello,

So, I am afraid that an atmosphere of persecution will lead to an observance of 'rights by convenience.'

What emotion is driving you?

Did you see my earlier answer to this?

quote: Thanks for asking Anthony and not assuming.

Emotion? Shouldn't that be kept out of politics?

"I'm afraid of creating an atmosphere of persecution that may lead to a practice of 'rights by convenience.' "

I'm not afraid of that - I think we're too loud and opinionated of a society for us to fall into that. But I guess that's all in the eye of the beholder. /quote

Maybe I'm just not understanding what you are looking for - try asking another way??

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 5:56 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I have been blind to an argument against the Mosque that is disconnected from emotion.

Open my eyes.

--Anthony

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 6:49 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, Pizmo, I agree with what you wrote most recently to a degree. Shocking, isn't it? But what you wrote was clear and you stated your position in a way I could understand.

Not with the moving of the COMMUNITY CENTER; on that I'm afraid I'm convinced that property rights, civil rights and freedom of religion should trump any visceral arguments. I will concede that my FEELINGS about these things are pretty strong, but it has similarities to the papers-please law, in that it singles out one segment of the citizenry.

But as to the rest:

What Cav (and Anthony) mean by “reasoned response” is that we don’t consider the objections provided thus far by the COMMUNITY CENTER’s opponents as “reasonable”:

It’s going to be a terrorist hub.
They’re doing it to give us the thumb.
Muslims always build mosques to celebrate conquest.
It’s insensitive to the families of those who died in 9/11.

If I’ve missed any, please add them. We don’t consider those reasoned objections; we consider those drummed-up excuses to fire up the base. None of them are true. The only reasoned response I can think of is: “It will be a dangerous thing to do because of the anti-Muslim sentiment which may destroy it, and it will remain a point of contention for a long time to come.” That’s valid, I think it’s some of what you’ve expressed, and the only objection I would make, but again, to me their rights, like everyone’s, should trump whatever opposition there might be to what THEY decide to do.

I disagree with Cav I that I think that your opinion is “eccentric” and that the difference between thinking it’s a bad idea and opposing it are a matter of conviction. I am in favor of respecting their rights; at the same time, I don’t think it’s a good idea, admittedly. I think there’s a stubborn desire to stand up for their rights involved, and while I HATE the idea they could be forced to build elsewhere, it’s somewhat a reflection of the emotions on THEIR side.

Quote:
opposition to the building would have ZERO TRACTION if not for the rabid anti-Islamic sentiment that's swept across this nation in the last month

THAT makes me furious; the bottom line is that this wasn’t an issue until Geller got attention about it, and now the right is running rampant with it.

Quoting others giving their reasons doesn’t mean their arguments are “reasoned”...and I don’t want to go back up and hunt them up, may I respectfully ask that you list them, as I did above? It would help me understand. I do understand, if that’s your entire position, that "The First Amendment protects freedom of religion," Manley said. "Sen. Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else." I actually agree, but am not willing to MAKE them do it, or stand with those who oppose it. MY reason is merely that, by creating a furor, Geller and Co. have made it so that the COMMUNITY CENTER is now a focus and will probably be attacked in one way or another. I wish they would CHOOSE to build elsewhere; if they don’t, I support them entirely.

I agree about what would have been the best way for Bloomberg to handle it 100%.

As to the rabid anti-Muslim sentiment currently existing, it doesn’t have to be quantified. Of COURSE there are people standing behind the Constitution...tho’ polls have shown they’re in the minority...but the denial of permits to build an actual mosque, the attacks on mosques...which things are happening across the country...indicate strong feelings which have nothing to do with 9/11 and everything to do with anti-Muslim emotions. I get that from the NEWS, several kinds of news, not just TV, and from the inflammatory rhetoric I hear average Americans giving out. It doesn’t need to be a majority acting out; they, the actions of some and the polls represent what’s happening.

As to your Gergen quote, I think he nailed it. Tho’ “Americans by and large may be tolerant”, I would say “MOST” Americans are tolerant...an awful lot of them have shown they’re the opposite, not just on this issue. And many of the others can be driven to intolerance, manipulated into ignoring Constitutional rights. And I think the percentage who think Obama is a Muslim reflects their numbers...among those who think he’s not, there may well still be visceral “reasons” for them being anti-COMMUNITY CENTER, but I don’t think they are reasoned.

Obviously I disagree wholeheartedly with

Quote:
I don't think any religion should be untouchable (which Islam seems to think it should be) - I think all religions should be similarly challenged.

I stand for freedom of religion and my belief that the opposition goes against the very tolerance and laws we supposedly stand for, and totally ignores both the property rights and civil rights of Muslims. We tolerate some pretty wild (and in some cases quite negative) religions; Islam should be no different. I certainly don’t see them as believing they’re “untouchable”, rather I see them as saying “we have the SAME right to our religion as anyone else” and the fact that it’s not a mosque but a COMMUNITY CENTER which would benefit everyone in that area, if it were being discussed rationally.

I think it is wrong to bring emotion into this discussion, too, and I don’t believe your arguments are based in emotion. They seem quite logical to me, insofar as they make sense but for the denial of rights to one segment of the population. I can certainly understand how you can hold them without any emotion whatsoever being involved.

Okay, so it’s long; would be nice if you didn’t snark at that. I wanted to cover every issue since I last posted; and I write long in an attempt to be clear in what I communicate.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 7:02 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

" we consider those drummed-up excuses to fire up the base. None of them are true."

Hello,

If we don't make decisions based on emotion, the truth of these things is of questionable importance.

"They seem quite logical to me, insofar as they make sense but for the denial of rights to one segment of the population. I can certainly understand how you can hold them without any emotion whatsoever being involved."

I am still not clear on what the argument is, absent of emotion, against the center.

--Anthony

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 8:31 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I have been blind to an argument against the Mosque that is disconnected from emotion.

Me too - that is of course why we have laws and why I expect this to be decided by the rule of law.

Have you watched The Wire?

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 9:02 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

The Wire... I don't think I have.

--Anthony

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 9:58 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

The Wire... I don't think I have.

--Anthony

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I highly recommend it, some of the best tv I've ever seen. It is in the end depressing as hell. It was written by an ex Baltimore Sun reporter about the life blood of Baltimore, the Mayor, the streets, the cops, really hard to describe it well. It shows what a cluster f*ck city politics is and how sometimes the rule of law works for us and sometimes against us. It has a very real feel to it.

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 10:04 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I enjoy a show that expresses multiple angles on reality. It's one of the things that attracted me to a show like Deadwood. Orderly Law and Anarchy all take turns at playing the Hero or the Villain, and best intentions share intimate dances with selfish desires, spawning results than span the gamut of dastardly and delightful.

I will see if Netflix has The Wire for live streaming.

--Anthony

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I actually made plenty of reasoned refutations against it, even quoted the nytimes quoting muslims from around the globe making reasoned comments against it, but you SEEM stuck on the extremists opposition view only.

Thanks for the reply, Pizmo, but y'know as Niki points out, quoting people doesn't make YOUR argument reasoned. You bringing up what folk say in the nytimes doesn't refute my arguments in the least. If I'd said, f'rinstance, "Everyone who opposes the mosque hates Muslims," as you seem to suggest over and over that I have, then yes, indeed, pointing out that some Muslims oppose the "mosque" would be cogent. But I never did.

In my last post, also, I took pains (and oh yes, it was bloody painful to listen to that jackhole and transcribe his hysteria) to listen to that British crackpot and refuted his claims, demanded substantiation, called him out on his obvious fabrications, and what do I get from you by way of discussion or defense???

Quote:
As far as this guy... he's on youtube so you have to take everything he says with a grain of salt (just like the media) because there's tons of money to be made with popular youtube videos. FOR THE RECORD: I don't agree with everything he says, I don't know how anyone could because it would be a long time checking his all of his claims, but I LOVE the fact that he's saying it. I don't think any religion should be untouchable (which Islam seems to think it should be) - I think all religions should be similarly challenged.

See, this is what's soooooo frustrating. You say "I don't agree with everything he says" but you don't say word one as to what you DO agree with and what you don't. I'd say 90% of his screed is specious. I assume you agree with something more than 10%, so we have a disagreement here, but only by inference. You won't reason it out (and, y'know, that's your right, I'm sick of that guy and his nonsense anyway, happy not to talk about him any further, but, again, you're not presenting reasoned argument this way). I feel like an idiot for answering his absurd claims now. You say, "it would be a long time checking all his claims," well, dang, how's about you check one or two? Or respond to my objections in any way other than to say, "whoops, sorry, you weren't supposed to take him seriously--it's just a YouTube video."

That is frustrating.

Quote:
I have absolute conviction that building the community center is a bad idea for muslims and non-muslims.
My first post on the subject:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=44879

quote:
"The First Amendment protects freedom of religion," Manley said. "Sen. Reid respects that but thinks that the mosque should be built some place else."

That sums it up for me.

I was surprised that O. said anything on this now - let New York and Bloomberg fight it out - but I guess considering the occasion of the dinner he had to say something, and of course the repubs would whine about anything he'd say.

I can't help but think a better solution would have been for him to "appeal" to the people that want to build the mosque to build it elsewhere ("with all due respect, it would be better for all muslims in the US if you do"), try and make both sides happy, come out an undisputed hero all the way around, and win some votes in Nov. If they refused the onus would be on them, "I tried... but our constitution is clear on this..." which he said except for the I tried part.
That place will be a target either way, I'd stay clear on the day that there aren't protestors out front."

I see that I stung you with the use of the word "conviction." Saying your argument lacked conviction. Poor word choice then. But you were the one who had to quibble about not being "opposed" to the mosque. I thought you were opposed and you said no, and I got all manner of confused by your double message. At this point, I would say you indeed have conviction about this case and you oppose the mosque. No clue really what hair you were splitting there, but for my money, you do not oppose freedom of religion, but you oppose the mosque--can we at least agree on that?

As to what the Pres shoulda said, I heartily disagree with you. It's hard to see reasoning, when the "reasoning" seems to be based on foolishness. At that point we're disagreeing about premises and that is hard to debate.

You think he shoulda spoken for compromise and I think the President cannot afford to compromise where rights are concerned. His job is not to make sure all factions in this country just get along, his job is to uphold the Constitution. And I agree with him that the Constitution is quite clear on this one.

And I am profoundly offended that people in this country cannot see Islam as a religion like any other. I don't think such people should be given the time of day in this country. They are anti-American, in my view, and must be educated, not placated.

It's the old FOX ploy of saying that whatever garbage the right hands us instead of facts, we have to give it equal weight with the actual facts or we're not being "fair and balanced." Half the country believes in the boogeyman, they want to outlaw turning out the lights when we go to bed, so let's try to find a workable compromise. There is no such compromise. Either you believe in the boogeyman or you do not. From what I've seen, the President does not. But there are still people who say, "hey, I don't believe in the boogeyman, but maybe we should leave the lights on anyway." Drives me bonkers.

Quote:
"...the rabid anti-Islamic sentiment that's swept across this nation in the last month."

How are you quantifying that?? By what you see on tv? I kind of agree in that it wouldn't be as big of a story if the Media didn't have that angle to play up, that's the engine that drives the story, but it's not the whole story.
I was pleased to see David Gergen speaking about this on cnn. He said, "there are plenty of pro-muslim people who are anti-mosque." (as in not rabid anti-islamists) He also debunked the polls that show what appears to be a shocking percent of Americans believing Obama's a muslim and puts Islam ahead of America. "Pure Politics. Republicans that are polled are going to anything to denigrate him... they could ask, "do you think Obama killed Elvis?" and they'd say yes." (Think of what AURaptor would reply if he was polled) Americans by and large have proven themselves to be a tolerant nation." I agree.

The Elvis line is very clever and right on the money as far as I can see. But that first part, man... Y'know, a lot of people, regardless of politics, don't like conflict, right? It scares 'em, makes 'em very, very uncomfortable and they just want it to go away. We see this all the time in our personal lives and we see it in our politics.

(I think it's a big part of why the Democrats suck. A lot of 'em are just people-pleasers who've risen to power by getting people to like them and now that they actually hold power and can actually pilot the Ship of State where they will, they find that they have no will but the desire to be liked and compromise themselves out of political relevance.)

So, the mosque is controversial (all of a sudden) and a lot of people don't want controversy. They don't want this to "get ugly." They just want a nice comfy compromise to solve everything--not for the people who want to build the "mosque" or even the people who vehemently oppose the "mosque"--no, they want to solve THEY'RE OWN problem of having to watch people arguing and fighting in front of them.

When it comes right down to it, I'm not defending the Muslims who proposed this community center a year ago and were unanimously approved by the city of New York, they don't need defending. But it would appear that the Constitution of this country and what it means are in serious need of defense just now.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, September 1, 2010 2:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Umm, HKCav ?

Quote:
And I am profoundly offended that people in this country cannot see Islam as a religion like any other. I don't think such people should be given the time of day in this country. They are anti-American, in my view, and must be educated, not placated.

You DO realize you are speaking of a group of people who are, as a whole, extremely hostile to even the *idea* of education, even the concept, cause it might impinge on their preciously treasured ignorance - and isn't that a laugh, they celebrate ignorance, and then pretend to know things!

People, the beginning of wisdom is when you start to realize just how damn little we truly KNOW, about any bloody thing at all.

And part of that is also cause they'd have to face up to some damn ugly truths about themselves, about their lives, if they ever did somehow stifle their prejudices long enough to learn, and the few times I've ever seen that done they have a total freakout, run right back to their chosen pundit and drown out that knowledge as hard and as fast as they can.

So, if you got any ideas on *HOW* to educate those people, which do not involve force, I would damned sure like to hear em - that ain't snark, mind you, it's just that I've no idea how to educate folk who are hostile to the entire concept of it and will resist it up to and including violence.

Ergo, I'm open to ideas, here.

Quote:
Half the country believes in the boogeyman, they want to outlaw turning out the lights when we go to bed, so let's try to find a workable compromise. There is no such compromise. Either you believe in the boogeyman or you do not.

Ahem, there's a third route, if only you can get the damn fools to see it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granny_Weatherwax#Headology

Quote:
It has been said that the difference between headology and psychiatry is that, were you to approach either with a belief that you were being chased by a monster, a psychiatrist will convince you that there are no monsters coming after you, whereas a headologist will hand you a bat and a chair to stand on. The Headology approach is also very similar to Susan Sto Helit's practical approach to children's problems; since the child already believes in a Bogeymen then you may as well go along with it and teach them that they can also, very firmly, believe in the fireplace poker too.

Our "Fireplace Poker" here, is the US Constitution, which they purport to believe in (till, yanno, it gets in the way) and THAT protects them, us, and every damn body else from the predations of ANY religion, in theory - I've already said my piece about what an illusion that is regarding christianity, but of that they won't care cause the folk opposing this are damn near universally christian and would see that as a good thing, unaware of the hypocrisy.

Quote:
When it comes right down to it, I'm not defending the Muslims who proposed this community center a year ago and were unanimously approved by the city of New York, they don't need defending. But it would appear that the Constitution of this country and what it means are in serious need of defense just now.

Indeed, and what a damn shame that often enough, it's the freakin ANARCHISTS, and in my case, an Antifederalist besides, who wind up standing for the rule of law they don't even care for, that's like Sauron stepping in front of a lynch mob saying "Stop! this is wrong!" - yanno, is there NO ONE ELSE better qualified with the fucking balls to stand and deliver ?

Maybe it's that such people don't take the rule of law for granted and can see it externally, versus folk who take it every bit as granted as the light coming on when you flip the switch without an ounce of knowledge of the mechanics by which that little miracle happens...

Maybe, but I think it's a lack of guts, which is the same problem with BOTH sides - one NEEDS to fight, in order to avoid admission that their entire sociopolitical basis is a cheap fiction, the other CANT fight, they've no idea how, and the whole issue of conflict gives them the willies, as HKCav points out so eloquently at the end of his post.

So... get a fuckin kleenex, quit your whining, and MAN THE FUCK UP.
Even if they *WERE* rabid-ass jihadis, what kinda threat would they pose to several MILLION well armed americans ?

I swear, y'all remind me of some weightlifter standing on a table, cowering and screeching, cause he saw a spider!

Pansies!
*spits in disgust*

-Frem

PS: I tried to be nice, didn't manage it, so what, deal with it.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 10:03 AM

WAFFENMAC

The Commies were not true believers.The Muslims are thats the difference.And one other thing look at Europes most popular baby names ,its not Hansel and Gretel.Its Muhammed and they are out breeding us like 6 to 1 and the liberal media still doesnt get it ,they would be the first to die if the cult of Islam was in power.

MacDaddy will be seeing Summer ,Morena ,Jewel and Sean on Saturday in Atlanta.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 10:21 AM

STORYMARK

Blah, misread someone's post - so mine must die.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 12:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA

That username is either a victim of bad fortune, or unintentionally hilarious...

I'm gettin this image of the cute little Mac128 with a swastika screen saver, and it's giving me the giggles, I always knew Apple was eeevil!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 12:58 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
You think he shoulda spoken for compromise and I think the President cannot afford to compromise where rights are concerned. His job is not to make sure all factions in this country just get along, his job is to uphold the Constitution. And I agree with him that the Constitution is quite clear on this one.

And I am profoundly offended that people in this country cannot see Islam as a religion like any other. I don't think such people should be given the time of day in this country. They are anti-American, in my view, and must be educated, not placated.

It's the old FOX ploy of saying whatever garbage the right hands us instead of facts, we have to give it equal weight with the actual facts or we're not being "fair and balanced."

Wait, Cav: I agree with all of that, but when did Fox EVER give facts as much weight as what the right hands them, or what they choose to make up to further the right’s agenda? I sure never heard anything...

But hoo, boy, is this one right on the money!

Quote:
I think it's a big part of why the Democrats suck. A lot of 'em are just people-pleasers who've risen to power by getting people to like them and now that they actually hold power and can actually pilot the Ship of State where they will, they find that they have no will but the desire to be liked and compromise themselves out of political relevance.

I would tend to say the compromiser is more Obama than the Dems in general, but nonetheless, your description is right on, in my book.

But in my opinion, it’s exactly the opposite. I think people LIKE controversy, drama, and an excuse to argue their side of an issue and make a big deal out of it. The “fear” part comes from them having swallowed whole cloth that it’ll be a breeding ground for terrorism, but I think once they’re fed the right material, they fire up just fine, thank you!

Quote:
But it would appear that the Constitution of this country and what it means are in serious need of defense just now.

All hail Cavalier, for hitting it squarely on the nose!

Yeah, Frem, sad to say I believe your right about a certain segment of the population. The idea of Bush being a “good old boy”, what’s-his-name’s being elected seen as partly because he’s got a pickup truck, and the eternal overuse and overgeneralization of the word “elite” pretty much says you’re right. Sadly...

Gee Waffen, here I thought it was the Mexicans who were outbreeding us x to 1...or was it the Blacks? Or some other group you want to denigrate—or does it just change with the given day, the given enemy? So confusing...

Yes, Mohamed is the most common baby name in London, also Copenhagen, Oslo, Amsterdam, and Brussels. But bear in mind that more Muslim parents will name their child Mohammed, whereas most people of other faiths/countries will choose other names. Ergo; given Muslims account for 1/5th of the world’s population, it is logical that Muhammed is the most common name, because:

Quote:
One of the main reasons the name Muhammad has become so popular is that Islam, which was founded by the prophet Muhammad, has become the world’s second most popular religion after Christianity. Muslim parents often name a boy Muhammad to show their reverence for the Prophet and Islam and to influence their child in developing good character,

So if you realize that most Muslim parents to name their child Mohammed, and people of other cultures/religions choose a variety of other names, there's no competition. Ego: The fact that it is the most common name in this or that place in no way means there are more Muslim babies born every year or even in those places where it is THE most common...only that Muslim parents more often name their male children that than others do.

It’s also necessary to bear in mind that Muslim refugees, given the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan, are probably the most numerous refugees to relocate in the world. Also:

Quote:
Experts said that the increase was attributable to immigration, a higher birthrate and conversions to Islam during the period of 2004-2008, when the data was gathered. They said that it also suggested a growing willingness among believers to describe themselves as Muslims because the western reaction to war and terrorism had strengthened their sense of identity.

So, birth rate aside, how many of those are immigrants, how many converted and how many now “identify” themselves as Muslims?

That is not to say their population isn't growing, but there’s more to it than just “they’re overwhelming us!!”

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 2:25 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am always irritated by the 'They are outbreeding us' argument raised time and again about the undesirable of the week.

Yes, well, so what if they are? Neither America nor Christianity has EVER been the numerically superior Thing On Earth. Moreover, one of the core concepts of the United States is that ethnic, racial, and religious backgrounds are Utterly Unimportant.

So, Who Cares if we are 'Outbred?' I won't invoke the tired trope that people who don't understand this must 'Hate America,' but I am strongly tempted to believe that they 'Don't Understand America At All.'

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 2:33 PM

the breeeding argument is often applied to invasive predators (for example, the dreaded asian carp) who devour, depopulate, and outbreed native species, thereby reducing bioversity and ravaging ecosystems. i see no reason not to apply the same logic to unwanted, unpleasant immigrants, who reduce cultural diversity by increasing it, and ravage cultures.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 2:46 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Are you no longer seeking the Brown Post?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 2:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Are you no longer seeking the Brown Post?

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

No, and not because I found it. Alas, but I am no Galahad or Parsifal; I was unworthy of the aim of my quest.

Also, I have been told that the Brown Post is a myth, much like faeries or the female orgasms.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 3:27 PM

I hear Bioversity has a killer Life Sciences Dept. I was thinking of majoring in biodiversity there in the fall.

(Sorry, could not resist.)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 3:42 PM

Either I'm a semi-literate moron posting on a forum, or a cunning ambush predator seeking to bait the spelllling and gammar faerie. And then eat them.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Neither America nor Christianity has EVER been the numerically superior Thing On Earth. Moreover, one of the core concepts of the United States is that ethnic, racial, and religious backgrounds are Utterly Unimportant.

So, Who Cares if we are 'Out-bred?' I won't invoke the tired trope that people who don't understand this must 'Hate America,' but I am strongly tempted to believe that they 'Don't Understand America At All.'

--Anthony

This.

And, I know the word "racist" gets overused and misapplied, but golly...if "they" are "out-breeding" "us" you're talking about a matter of bloodline, a.k.a. race. So, these "undesirable" races are out-breeding "our" race. It's freakin' definitively racist.

And since when is America a single racial "us" anyway? Y'know? Folks who talk about being "out-bred" are already out-bred. It's a done deal. Right wing loonies will always be a minority, even among the right-wing.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 3:44 PM

Did you just call me a fairy???

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 3:56 PM

No, though you are rather fey.

There's this poster with gossamer wings that flits about the forum gratuitously correcting the most trivial spelling errrers. It calls itself the Spelling Fairy; I call it Snack Cake. I'm going to kill it, and eat it.

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Thursday, September 2, 2010 4:12 PM

Oh, I haven't seen that one in a while. But a minute ago I saw the one that exploits misleading and humorous typos to get a cheap laugh, but she was run out of here by a big scary ogre. That one can't seem to take a joke.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, September 3, 2010 6:14 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

What's the "Brown Post"? Pardon my ignorance.

Happy to see the direction this thread has taken; about time we had some levity on the subject!

Mincing, I started to get all head up when I read your post until I glanced up and saw it was YOURS.

Score one for the Mincing Beast!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, September 3, 2010 6:22 AM

"The Brown Post" is like the "brown note." According to Wikipedia, which is always right, the brown note is "a theoretical infrasonic frequency that would cause humans to lose control of their bowels due to resonance." Similarly, the "brown post" is an actual post which causes whoever reads it to immediately void their bowels due to radness.

The brown note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_note

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Friday, September 3, 2010 6:28 AM

That was sweat, Nikki. Their sure are a lot of nice posters in this place! I tootally value they're contributions and so forth.

**whistles**

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Thursday, August 25, 2016 8:20 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Trying to behead a woman, while shouting Allah u Akbar.

Jihadist? nope, no terrorism here, says White House.

http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/Man-charged-in-Roanoke-County-stabbi
ng-390853761.html

https://pamelageller.com/2016/08/virginia-jihadi-beheader-wasil-farooq
ui-prayed-at-roanoke-mosque.html/

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-23/fbi-probes-attempted-beheadin
g-roanoke-virgina-allah-akbar-yelling-attacker

http://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-investigating-isis-inspired-knife-attack-
virginia/story?id=41581213

https://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/2016/08/23/roanoke-virginia-us-mu
slim-terrorist-stabs-two-while-yelling-allahu-akbar-in-possible-isis-inspired-attack/

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Sunday, October 16, 2016 6:42 AM

Master storyteller Salman Rushdie speaks at the Paramount
Famous author covers everything from Faulkner to Trump
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2016/09/master-storyteller-salman
-rushdie-speaks-at-the-paramount

Terry Eagleton presents an unusual challenge to the new atheism
http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/2016/10/new-atheists-and-old-le
ftists

Regressive Left puts bigotry and militant Islam on a pedestal
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/regressive-left-puts-big
otry-and-militant-islam-on-a-pedestal/news-story/c42df8a48a1e2da5f33311f4a3303919

Quote:
Originally posted by Fag-firma:

Which is exactly what my signature line refers to, yes.

firma instead worships the Altar of socialists, makes prayer and offering to the anarchists and prays to the shrine of marxist bolsevik leftism

Even makes death threats against anyone who didn't vote for Feminist wannabe leader Hillary, makes threats to kill his fellow Americans

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Monday, December 20, 2021 9:16 AM

Mozambique: Muslims have kidnapped and enslaved more than 600 women and girls since 2018
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2021/12/mozambique-muslims-have-kidnapped-a
nd-enslaved-more-than-600-women-and-girls-since-2018

Saudi Arabia Arms Sale Is One of Biden’s Many Militaristic Actions in First Year
https://truthout.org/articles/saudi-arabia-arms-sale-is-one-of-bidens-
many-militaristic-actions-in-first-year/

Frogistan Sudanese Muslim invader murders refugee center receptionist, then sets the center on fire
https://barenakedislam.com/2021/12/13/france-sudanese-muslim-invader-m
urders-refugee-center-receptionist-then-sets-the-center-on-fire/

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Sunday, December 26, 2021 6:35 AM

India another islamist jihadi Muslim politician tells police the demonic pedophile Moongod ‘al Lah will destroy you’

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2021/12/india-muslim-politician-tells-polic
e-allah-will-destroy-you

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Tuesday, June 28, 2022 6:35 AM

People complained in the West when they faced this illegal immigrant invader 'taharrush gamea' culture
but seems like some in the region face this crap every day
Why does the confused Western Leftwing support this culture?
Me islamic me fucky fucky you

Gruesome murder, reaction to it highlight violence against women in Egypt

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gruesome-murder-reaction-highlight-violence
-145507148.html

A trial began for an Egyptian man accused of stabbing a woman to death in a public street after she rejected the islamic?

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220627-egypt-tries-man-over-mu
rder-of-student-who-refused-advances

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Tuesday, June 28, 2022 11:36 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
Why does the confused Western Leftwing support this culture?

They both diddle kids.

--------------------------------------------------

Falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus

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Saturday, May 13, 2023 5:56 AM

Germany: More and more babies are named after the terrorist pedophile 'Mohammed', a guy who founded islamism, who married a 6 yr old and has promised young boys as beautiful as pearls where they can suck on little boys tongues if they die in jihad, he took slaves and tortured and killed women

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2023/05/germany-more-and-more-babies-are-na
med-mohammed-its-the-most-popular-name-for-baby-boys-in-berlin

Designated terrorist group CAIR invited to White House to discuss so-called “Islamophobia”

https://barenakedislam.com/2023/05/07/designated-terrorist-group-cair-
invited-to-white-house-to-discuss-so-called-islamophobia/

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Sunday, May 28, 2023 11:47 AM

Shooting over water between Iran and Taliban leaves fatalities

https://news.yahoo.com/shooting-over-water-between-iran-085203056.html

Taliban popping off with Iran.

Heavy gunfire exchanged along Afghan border.

https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/status/1662631760667234304

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Monday, November 18, 2024 9:50 AM

France: Muslim migrant teen tried to obtain weapons, plotted jihad massacre at synagogue

https://jihadwatch.org/2024/11/france-muslim-migrant-teen-tried-to-obt
ain-weapons-plotted-jihad-massacre-at-synagogue

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Tuesday, December 10, 2024 2:42 PM