Enough! by SignyM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I'm pretty much right there with ya, Signy. I'm spending more and more of my free time "elsewhere" - places other than here.

I was bummed to hear about The Stig, too. Some mysteries SHOULDN'T be solved! I did offer my services if they ever need a stateside Stig, though. ;)

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, September 3, 2010 2:31 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

You should at least pop back in for:

Member Since: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 15:46 (That may be Hawaiian time) to celebrate your 8 yr anniversary here.

There's something else happening this Nov too... hmmm... what is it...

I know, it probably won't make any difference.

This is a really cool place, but let's face it: fOruMs are teh eViL. They are not a true measure of public opinion, they distort almost every aspect of expression. Taking a break is a great idea.

and fwiw: I'm late to Top Gear, which is great because it means I have 10 seasons worth of episodes to catch up on. It's the little things.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, September 3, 2010 3:37 AM

We'll miss ya, Sig. You piss me off a lot, but I also learn a lot from you.

I take off too, a year here, a couple of years there. I always keep coming back.

Kinda weird.

I hope you come back too. From time to time.

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Friday, September 3, 2010 4:48 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Hey Signy,

I think I've only been back once or twice since another time you said you were taking off. Didn't see the 'thanks for the fish' back then though. I remember a bunch of people posting that on the public board when they were laid off back in the day.

Don't let it get you down.... I told you that it wouldn't be any better, or worse, when a Dem was in office.

It is soooooooo not a pendulum between them. It's a very zig-zaggy road that seems to just straighten itself more and more into alignment as the decades pass. It's all headed towards one single point.

Go out and enjoy life. I haven't watched more than 20 hours of news and read nothing online or in the paper for about 7 months. It may not be saying much, but my life hasn't been this good in years.

What a novel concept, to only invest mental processes to things that you do have control or at least some influence over..... and yet, so hard to actually practice in this travesty of a technological age we find ourselves mired in today.

Thanks for the Cheeseburgers,
~6ix

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Friday, September 3, 2010 4:48 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

BAH! The Double Post Goblin strikes again!

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 8:44 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

SignyM

Sadly, I agree with you, though in a less thought-out way.

The country is full of nutters, and their owners are running the joint. Nothing good is going to happen from the bottom-up.

I've been here on and off for years. And what I see every time I come back is that over all these years and all this discussion and all the facts posted NO ONE HAS LEARNED ANYTHING NEW. What I see is that there are many people here - even some intelligent people - who are so driven by deep emotion they CAN'T learn anything new.

We, I believe, are facing the possibility of imminent economic collapse that will make Argentina's look trifling. It will take immediate economic measures to avert it.

And who will rouse the needed change?

Frem is so pissed off at schools he blames them for pathological personalities and the collapse of society as we know it - even though kids' personalities are pretty much baked before they even get to kindergarten. So we can't do anything until we can fix the schools, dontcha' see.
Byte and CTS are so paranoid about government they will gladly give their very beings to corporations. God forbid corporations are made to serve society instead of the other way around.
OTB claims The Fed is behind every single depression future, present - and past. Every. Single. One. Amen.
And this list would not be complete without a mention of Rap, the most seriously deluded person I have ever witnessed, short of diagnosed schizophrenia. Time travel (blaming people for problems that were created before far them), creation and destruction of matter (that booming economy!, those WMDs !), all sorts of physical impossibilities are nothing to him.

I think religion, ideologies and corporations work on people the exact same way a sociopath does. They manipulate the feelings of others without being subject to them themselves. They use this as a smokescreen to set up structures by which they themselves materially prosper.

And I see a bunch of highly manipulated people who can't see beyond their emotions.

Oh well.

Not my problem.

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 9:11 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh gawd, Sig, I wish you wouldn't go! That's selifish, I know and admit it, but damn, you're one of the best voices HERE, and with Mike spending less time here, that makes the proportion of crazies/nasties even higher. Damn.

I hate that people get driven away from here; it's so goddamned wrong. I've had more fun here than I can say; I've learned a TON, and a ton more from looking stuff up to see if my position is valid and to back it up when it is. This place is wonderful, for all it's faults, and it's teaching me tolerance like nothing else ever has.

Damn, I wish you two weren't bowing out. That truly breaks my heart.

Mind you, I understand; boy do I understand, but I'm going to miss the HELL out of you and hope the magnet brings you back asap. At least Mike isn't leaving for good...

I certainly don't blame you, I'm just gonna miss you (I said that already, didn't I? Bears repeating!)

to you both; your special people and it's our loss to be without you, even only partly.

When it comes to the country; yes, sadly I wholeheartedly agree. I semi-joked to Jim yesterday: Who'd have thought, with Bush gone, things could get WORSE?!?! I fear for our country and its people.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

For the record, I'm not against increased taxes for the rich, or sliding scale taxes, or any of that, if it would help. But as ever, I approach every issue and every argument with SKEPTICISM. I don't know much to anything about economics, so I don't generally comment on taxes or economic policy because I generally don't know enough to agree or disagree.

But I did understand your idea about taxing business, and I thought it flat out wouldn't have brought more money to the middle class. My objection wasn't even about my (I believe healthy) distrust of the government, but rather that the proposition was self-defeating. You can be angry about my disagreement and lash out at me if you want, but it won't win you any points with anyone.

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Frem is so pissed off at schools he blames them for pathological personalities and the collapse of society as we know it - even though kids' personalities are pretty much baked before they even get to kindergarten. So we can't do anything until we can fix the schools, dontcha' see.

Because it is the one link in the chain we can alter without stomping all over peoples rights.

Look, you cannot effectively ride herd over someones parenting without invading thier life in a way that defeats the entire point of civil rights - you can try to teach em a better way, encourage em, but the wholesale carnage caused by the FLDS/El Dorado fiasco is a good case example of just how much "collateral damage" that kind of intervention causes - nor do I accept that a kid is "fully baked" at six, that's nuts.

Yes, the early windows are important, but a lot of it *can* be undone or mitigated in that second window from six to twelve, although it gets progressively and exponentially harder after that, but by using that opportunity to bend the chain so it DOES NOT continue the cycle of violence, the generation behind that one will not inflict the damage on their own children in the early developmental stages, and this is aided by human nature (which isn't as monstrous as we are taught) and the natural instincts, one of which is to protect the young, instincts which we currently spend most of that second window trying our very best to utterly destroy.

As the branch is bent, so grows the tree - but if you remove actively crushing out empathy, humanity, in even one generation, it turns around very quickly - don't believe me, look at how fast beating your wife became socially unacceptable once we decided to regard them as people instead of subhuman ?

Same bullshit arguments behind beating your wife or servants, are the ones behind mistreating kids, and they are no more valid there than they ever were anywhere else, all it's ever gonna take is to acknowledge and respect em as the human beings they are and nature, empathy, it'll handle the rest simply enough, preventing the next-gen from being even that messed up to begin with.

There's no quick fix for this, and I am also annoyed at the inclination to write these kids off too quick cause it's too much hassle and work to help someone who has no influence or money, right ? - what a cop out that is, and they know it too, why you think they have that rage at us, cause we turn our backs on em when they need us most, ignore and defy our social and human responsibility, mostly cause we're taught to do that by a society that is naught more than an assembly line for sociopathy, that is in place to protect the status quo and prevent us from ever developing on a mental/emotional/social level cause it would upset the teakettle that keeps the wealthy few in power.

And so, there's me, planting watermelon seeds under the sidewalk and quietly watering them, aiding and abetting what nature itself will finish, and really only speeding up a process that is inevitable as sunrise or a changing tide.

I also defy one to tell me it's a lost cause, since at one time addressing the abuses of the catholic church, or even the mere existence of the hellcamps, was a lost cause too - just bringing up the topic would get you dismissed as a conspiracy nutter, and yet, look where we are now ?

But hell, what do I know, I only been doin this for like thirty some years, right ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 1:57 PM

WHOZIT

Dam SingyM I thought you you were gone, well welcome back. Thanks to libs like you we have 9.6% unemploment......please shut the fuck up. You're a douchebag and I don't repect what you say or think.....K!

Those arn't boobs, they're lies! - Stewie Griffin

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 9:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Niki- sorry. I like this place, I like many of the people here, and you're one of them.

But when I said I don't intend to be here for the collapse, I mean in the United States. I'll try for the next year to see what i can do, and at the same time I'll be looking for another country to live.

The USA would be so nice, if it weren't for all the people in it who;'re busy shooting themselves in the foot.

Oh, and Frem?

If you're so interested in changing people, why don't you start a charter school?

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 9:07 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

dbl

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 10:25 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Byte

Just to clear this up, if you are mistaking me for SignyM you are wrong.

I have gone over many past threads to make sure I'm getting the best picture I can.

Overall, you have very little concern over corporations and far too much fear of government. Your most favorite answer about corporations is to pull the blankets over your head and dream that they don't hurt you. You'll just melt into the landscape and they'll pass you by, eh?

When it comes to actually confronting them intellectually, emotionally or socially you are just plain absent. And if reining in corporations involves giving power to government and DEMANDING your due, you become seriously twitchy.

That's my blunt opinion. If that's not true, point out where I am wrong. Quote something you have posted or post something new.

Take from it what you will. Also, if you don't want an honest observation, let me know and I will X you out of any engagement.

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 10:37 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Frem

I have issue with this: "Because it is the one link in the chain we can alter without stomping all over peoples rights."

YOU are the adult. THEY are children. YOU have the power. Not at some indefinite point in the future. NOW.

If you wish to change the world, do so directly. It will make the world a better place, and, guess what - vastly improve children's personalities too. Nothing says you are loved and secure like having someone bust their ass to give you something important and good.

If btw you wish to get into discussions of sociopathy, I come well-prepared with facts.

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh, and Frem?

If you're so interested in changing people, why don't you start a charter school?

Cause I got beat to it with a better idea while I was smashing the Hellcamps, which did need desperately to be done cause they were the dumping ground for kids who's humanity was strong enough to withstand indoctrination and medication.

The Sudbury Model Schools are taking off, and I have been wholeheartedly backing that play in every way my time and resources allow, as well as similar projects like the Ann Arbor Free School just down the road from here, or the new Little Lake Free School - btw, Melissa is a real yeoman, sometimes I suspect she doesn't need sleep or something, yikes.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/post-72/
Plus we got "Commie High", as the resident rightwingnuts like to call it, goin on at full capacity and all but exploding at the seams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_High_School_%28Ann_Arbor,_Michi
gan%29

So we really are onto Stage Two, educational reform, which (remember I'm not in charge anymore) is really more Justins project than mine, cause there's still call for the wrecking ball, and currently the religious and state-sponsored hellcamps are catchin it hot, especially the taxpayer-funded (via faith based initiatives) "Teen Challenge" monstrosity, which is without an ounce of doubt a religion-based hellcamp and it being financed via our tax dollars is profoundly offensive to me.
http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2008/05/daily-kos-dogemperor-tee
n-challenge.html
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/5/4/164443/2223/954/504505

In all honesty, although I am decent enough as an advisor/guidance counsellor, and as an available resource and problem solver - I am alas, a far, far better wrecking ball, and Justin has the reform side of it well in hand without all the "baggage" of a violent and bitter history mucking up the works, and is rather quick to smack my hand for "meddling" since I don't have the light touch he does, you see ?

But there's a place for the wrecking ball, too, cause if they won't deal with him, they'll wind up dealing with *me* - and he's been known to point this out as an encouragement to cooperate, not to mention Teen Challenge and the AoG horde, plus certain elements of the juvie "justice" system, need a good fucking stomping....

And I'd be a lil remiss in my duty not to deliver one.

I think.. over the years, I have become a bit like Pavlovs much-vaunted mutt, in that I really kind of have to have some butt to kick, been doin it so long I don't really know how NOT to, which is a bit sad, but I knew goin in that this would seriously mess me up as a person, eyes-wide-open... and then the bastards at WWASPS had the nerve to go down for the count when I planned to die tryin, and for a while I was like, mentally adrift about it.

But I *did* wisely choose a line of succession, and I got little miss cricket here (Wendy) to yank the leash when I start to go over the line, so it's all a matter of time, really - and nature lends a hand anyway, we're already seeing Ritalin-resistant kids, prolly cause their parents were drowned in that crap most of their lives.

I'm just an impatient bastard, all it really is.
(Not to mention somewhat less coherent, it's been a fifteen hour day today, mind you..)

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 11:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Frem

I have issue with this: "Because it is the one link in the chain we can alter without stomping all over peoples rights."

YOU are the adult. THEY are children. YOU have the power. Not at some indefinite point in the future. NOW.

If you wish to change the world, do so directly. It will make the world a better place, and, guess what - vastly improve children's personalities too. Nothing says you are loved and secure like having someone bust their ass to give you something important and good.

If btw you wish to get into discussions of sociopathy, I come well-prepared with facts.

Umm, perhaps you were not aware of this, but that is what I have BEEN DOING since somewhere around puberty, and that was thirty and more years ago - and I made that decision *as a child* and have carried it through beyond my wildest expections when Pathway Family Centers, the intake system and financial based core of all the WWASPS-run hellcamps (more or less concentration camps for kids) collapsed in Feb 2009, thanks in great part to the efforts of many folk, Shelby Earnshaw primary among them, but no less assisted by a VERY long campaign to expose and hinder them (until only recently the damn places were considered a myth!) which involved far more violence than probably necessary and a tremendous degree of personal risk.

Somewhere along the way I also developed the ability to help some of the really messed up kids that came out of these places, even when conventional psych had completely written them off, and by doing so, wound up with an organisation and allies, most of whom are now adults, and as fervent in this issue as I happen to be.

And that's the REALLY short version - pardon me whilst I go pass out, neh, even such as I must sleep, sometimes.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, September 4, 2010 11:23 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I appreciate that - but - at the moment the biggest threat to kids en masse - to their parents, their homes, their safety, their psyches - is the predatory economy, not school systems.

And - g'nite, then.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 3:29 AM

DMAANLILEILTT

Well if you're looking to get out o' Dodge I can recommend Oz. Only country not in recession.

And it's always a shame when anyone gives up on the interweb. Although you seem to be a keen debator, so there may be a juicy topic that might drag you back?

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 5:05 AM

KANEMAN

I am glad you are bowing out. Not surprised though, Liberals are bowing out all across this nation..Race after race. I'd invite all you liberals to leave this board before the November blood bath......It is going to be glorious....See, people are learning things, just not what you'd like them to learn. For the first time in 100+ years more and more Americans are asking for a lesser government and rejecting liberal thought.....Well, it's true..

*leaves thread waving the Gadsen flag in one hand, Middle finger waving in the other*

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 5:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
- at the moment the biggest threat to kids en masse - to their parents, their homes, their safety, their psyches - is the predatory economy, not school systems.

I disagree. It's the REAL lack of understanding that a kid is just a smaller, less experienced adult. Catagorizing them as less important is what sets up society to use & abuse each other later in life.
Adults wouldn't suck so bad if they hadn't learned that they deserved to so early in life.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 6:42 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Perfect examples of why the US is going to collapse: total, rampant idiocy:

Quote:
Well if you're looking to get out o' Dodge I can recommend Oz. Only country not in recession.

German jobless drop helps broaden recovery.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE67U19520100831

UPDATE 6-Brazil's economy booms in Q2, defying predictions
www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0323981320100903

China's economic growth eases to 10.3 percent
www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/07/14/china.gdp/index.html

India's recovery continues as growth rises to 8.8%
www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/aug/31/india-economy-growth-inflation

We think the upcycle will likely continue in the coming nine months in Germany, France, Austria, the Netherlands
www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jun/03/uk-economic-recovery-lag-franc
e-germany

Pull your head out of your arse from time to time. There are nations around the world that are doing quite well... much better than we are. And the reason? They have economic plans that depend on a lot more than pulling their pants down around their ankles and bending over.

Quote:
Liberals are bowing out all across this nation

Huh. Who was it that said "I laugh at your pain"? Trust me, you'll be able to hear me laughing halfway around the world.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 6:51 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sig, sadly I agree

Quote:
The USA would be so nice, if it weren't for all the people in it who're busy shooting themselves in the foot.

It's so damned hard to see people acting against their best interests because they're not THINKING, just swallowing garbage and acting on it. I fear for them, and for us all. I would never leave my country, but it's definitely going to be cringe-worth from the looks of it years to come.

The saddest part is that I fear they'll be sorry for their actions after the fact, and not be able to do anything about it but sit and watch the mess unfold.

Maybe this is just the cycle of an empire dying, I dunno, but I had hoped it wouldn't get THIS bad. I just hope you're wrong, and that if you are, you'll come back to us. We need you, dammit! ;o)

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 7:17 AM

Niki, you say you would "never" leave your country, and that is exactly what TPTB are counting on: your blind loyalty to something as abstract as your idea of "country". THEY don't care about your country (look at John McCain for proof; "Country First", until I need to win a primary, then "Fuck Country, I need a win!"), and the corporations sure as fuck don't care about you or your country. They rely on YOU caring about things they'd never dream of giving a shit about, and they use that to set you up for indentured servitude.

It's funny Sig should bring it up, because I've been noticing more and more people getting the hell out of the U.S. It's something you see at the "hinge moments" of every empire, those moments where it could go either way, and one thing happens to tilt the result towards collapse; at that point, those who can get out, do so.

There was a chance to right things, and it wasn't taken; soon, it will be far too late, if it isn't already. I love my country, but I'm not willing to die for some corporations dreams.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 7:39 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I don't think there's danger of "dying", and life will go on, however it works out. I happen to think it would be a good thing if our "empire" died--our power around the world has been too great, and I woldn't mind seeing it lessen.

As for the rest; yes, it's going to be bad. Maybe even worse than we fear--certainly Jim and I were astonished at how bad it got under Bush, even tho' we'd feared it would be bad.

But governments come and go, and life goes on. Jim and I don't have that many years left anyway, so the idea of starting all over somewhere else isn't something we'll probably consider--depending on HOW bad it gets! I'd love to live in a little place I fell in love with, Interlaken, Switzerland, but that's not possible...certainly if it gets truly untenable, we'll look to Canada; I admire Canada n many ways. If the next superpower is China (as it looks to be), things might get even rougher here than even us fatalists fear, but we'll just have to see.

It's incredibly sad, yes; in just my lifetime I've seen so much degenerate, and faster and faster it seems since Bush came along. My biggest fear is some kind of dictatorship, and that's certainly how some empires have gone. It would be a damned shame to see our "experiment" go that way (just as the experiment in communism did, tho' in our own way), but luckily I don't have that much longer, so I'll treasure what we've got as long as I can.

I've traveled the world, and never found a country like ours, so big and diverse that it really should be a bunch of little countries--hell, maybe THAT'll come to pass, too, if things get really bad. I wouldn't mind the Independent State of California (tho' preferably of NORTHERN California!), but I think that, if it happens, is still a long ways away, despite the threats of succession we hear these days.

My loyalty will never be blind, and I will fight tooth and nail to do what I think is right, fer shore. We'll just have to wait and see, but no, I don't expect the downward slide to stop, especially given the politics of the moment.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 8:31 AM

Hell, I already got a front row seat to what that exodus looks like, just go to youtube and punch in Detroit Wasteland and you can see for yourself.

And yet, among the ruins there's people quietly converting some of those lots to farm food, provided that can hide it or flimflam enough to keep the fucking Dept of Agriculture and their bastard friends down at Monsanto from interfering, which is as it stands kind of a tenative standoff.

No one around here respects authority because that authority has FAILED them, in every way possible, and like children living with abusive parents, they'll play along only when that authority is present, in force, and not one second longer than they are - even law enforcement has failed, utterly, the Detroit 300 and various other factions have taken to protecting their own neighborhoods, often times hiring contract security, whilst their so-called protectors in blue ravage them via ludicrous levels of "traffic enforcement" and an asset-forfeiture system that is as corrupt as anything in the nation, so a good bit of the time these groups wind up in conflict with, and opposed to, the boys in blue.

For a more recent dose of that insanity, look at that maniac Mike Bouchards reaction to medical marijuana - he simply rounded them ALL up and arrested them without even a pretense of probable cause, cause much like that nutter Arpaio, he seems to think the law doesn't apply to him when it goes counter to his whim.

In practice, we've gotten pretty good at ignoring those fuckers - they like to think they're in charge, and folks just let em think that and go right on with their lives, cause no one much gives a shit ABOUT them any more.

As for the townships, we've taken to yanking them up by the purse strings, and in past years have slapped down a recall on assholes who can't play nice, most recalls have a higher turnout than the election that put such shitheels in, but so far most of our township candidates are a collection of wacky, crazy and corrupt so it's kind of a tossup what you'll get once they're installed.
Around here you could also vote for the Evil Overlord Party - we're evil, but at least we're competent at it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitle956r32ys?from=Main.Do
WrongRight

Anyhows, the only thing that ever kept the shitheels of the world in power in the first place is dimwits willing to take their orders.

If ENOUGH people just ignore em, they'll just about dry up and blow away, and as for those who knowingly follow in things they're quite well aware are wrong, out of hate, out of malice, out of selfishness...

Which is kinda where Detroit is, right now, and I figure that'll be maybe nationwide in a decade or two, things don't turn around, a bunch of assholes talking like they own the place, and no one much payin any mind to them - sooner or later China and others are gonna put a hold on our national credit, and without the resources to rebuild their dying military machine, it's not like they got much to threaten us with, yanno.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 8:48 AM

Quote:

I have gone over many past threads to make sure I'm getting the best picture I can.

Then clearly you haven't looked hard enough, either since *I* joined or since you joined, it doesn't really matter.

I'm not demanding you prove anything about yourself (note that the reverse isn't true). And for your information, I actually like Sig, however she's treated me. I often appreciate her scientific assessment. But if Sig's comments in ONE THREAD when she got angry at just about EVERYONE has influenced a new generation of posters, then it's my reputation that's under attack.

This is fairly close to the time I joined, so I think this will suffice to prove I've been fairly anti-corporation and pro- self-sufficient sustainable community local economy since I first showed up here. Notice how I didn't even necessarily mention capitalism here; I think it's up to a community to decide how to organize their system of trade, not me. They can choose what they want, whether it's capitalism or some sort of cooperative or whatever, I don't care, so long as it's voluntary and it works for them.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=35901

Quote:

If the public doesn't want a complete collapse, we need to move and seize back some control before the government, corporate interests, stock marketeer gamblers, and others practicing untrustworthy business take everything from us. Because they will. They're that greedy.

In later threads, I suggested that campaign reform would probably be the best possible way to do this without dismantling everything (which I also consider an option, though it's Plan Z). Getting trustworthy individuals into office to ENACT campaign reform would be a task in of itself, however. Corporate corruption is widespread and fairly hard to get around, and I don't think ANY party, be it democratic, republican, or tea party is free of it. We need true independents. I've said that recently.

You also clearly missed the part in the thread where you took most of this from Sig when I was arguing against corporate personhood. Citizens should always have special protections from the interests of bullying groups. That anyone thinks corporations should have any protections at all under the law is something I can't understand and won't agree to, ever, let alone that corporations should be treated like a human individual with the same amount of rights. They're not an individual, they're a large group with a lot of members and money and power with which to force their way. The average citizen needs every possible advantage they can have over a corporation in a court of law.

In any case, if you are new, I recommend you look around a little more. Things Sig said in anger may not represent an accurate assessment of other people's philosophies. I took about a year easing myself into the board, trying to understand who was who and what were the dynamics between everyone, what fights I wanted to get involved in and what was personal. You're not going to win anyone over by leveraging attacks at them, you win people over by listening, then, if you disagree, respectfully saying so and why.

You missed something else in your board browsing too: I have no interest in insult wars. People begin to stop listening and start talking over each other in favour of strawmen. It gets us nowhere. Feel free to continue to indulge your dislike of me, wherever it might stem from, but if you do, I won't bother to play.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 10:45 AM

Well said, Byte, every single word of it.

I especially like this part:

Quote:

You also clearly missed the part in the thread where you took most of this from Sig when I was arguing against corporate personhood. Citizens should always have special protections from the interests of bullying groups. That anyone thinks corporations should have any protections at all under the law is something I can't understand and won't agree to, ever, let alone that corporations should be treated like a human individual with the same amount of rights. They're not an individual, they're a large group with a lot of members and money and power with which to force their way. The average citizen needs every possible advantage they can have over a corporation in a court of law.

It *SHOULD* piss everyone off that corporations have all of the rights of individuals, but none of the responsibilities. When a corporation like BP straight up murders eleven of its employees, nobody in the company gets the death penalty, or life without parole. Can you imagine what would happen to an INDIVIDUAL who did that, who went into BP headquarters and shot and killed eleven employees?

The corporate apologists can sit around all day and whine about how BP didn't do this "on purpose", but for all their violations and corner-cutting, you really can't call this an "accident", not by a long shot.

We (and the SCOTUS) don't need to be giving massive corporations MORE rights; we need to be giving them LESS.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 11:59 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

ChrisIsAll

Kids' personalities are in place before kindergarten. If you want hopeful, humane, thoughtful, motivated children you have to make that happen VERY early in life. School age is just too late. I'm not arguing schools should be hellholes. But schools are trifling when your family, your block, your neighborhood, your future are even worse hellholes.

After all, what use is a great school in the Warsaw ghetto?

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 12:24 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Byte

An insult would be me calling you a cock-sucking coward (posted for illustrative purposes only), not an observation that I see big holes in your thinking caused by powerful anti-authority emotions.

To whit: nowhere do I see you calling for government to be held accountable AT THE BALLOT BOX where they actually feel the consequences of their machinations. Nowhere do I see you considering concerted group political action. Nowhere do I see you even considering a leashed but powerful government acting on people's behalf.

The idea of a powerful government is so anathema to you you will not even consider it. That is a big blind spot to a solution that has been well-implemented elsewhere.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 4:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
pro- self-sufficient sustainable

Oh, THAT'LL help! /snark

Quote:
That anyone thinks corporations should have any protections at all under the law is something I can't understand

[ And the only solution is to grab the throat of government and throttle it until it does our will. In theory, I like the idea of cooperatives, and voluntary decision-making. But in practice, as Prof Rapson says in The Day After Tomorrow I'm afraid that time has come and gone, my friend.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 4:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Kids' personalities are in place before kindergarten. If you want hopeful, humane, thoughtful, motivated children you have to make that happen VERY early in life. School age is just too late.

This is factually incorrect.

I refer you to the work of the Child Trauma Academy and specifically Doc Perry regarding the exact fashion in which personality develops in both "normal" and maltreated children, research I stumbled upon during my own work which has been immeasurably valuable, especially when paired up with the pyschological insights of people like Alice Miller and Andrew Vachss.
http://www.childtrauma.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_D._Perry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Vachss
http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php

Most of whom are also members of PROTECT, a political PAC soley to advocate for the protection of kids.
http://www.protect.org/

Scholastic has an excellent sample of Perrys work, but this is by no means the sum total, the more technical articles are bit on the "heavy reading" side for the layman, but if called for I can probably dig up for you.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/index.htm

That said, I do take your point about environment and poverty being a real and serious problem, but honestly what I know about economics wouldn't fill a thimble, thus I tend to stick to a narrow focus in which I can maximize effectiveness of limited resources.

This I will say however, you restore empathy to people, or simply avoid crushing it out, the idea of exploiting or harming others for fun and profit becomes quite repugnant to them, which is also a partial solution to the problem of what strikes me as a very predatory economy, if the idea of looting someone elses livelyhood turns their stomach, one is very less inclined to do it.

You see, many of the so-called solutions I see, they only address the symptoms of a greater problem, rarely if ever acknowledging, much less addressing, the root causes of the behavior in question because they literally CAN'T address it, due to large psychological blind spots which would make facing the core issue itself traumatic for them, and so they find other things to blame and address the satellite symptoms...

But that's like taking cough syrup for tuberculosis, a bandaid on a bullet wound, and that isn't a longterm solution - we need to address the root causes of what LEADS to exploitive and abusive behavior towards ones fellow man, the lack of basic humanity which allows it to happen.

For a fact, human nature isn't as monstrous as we have been lead to believe, and you may have noticed that the ones presenting that myth are always ALSO the ones holding out a leash and offering to hold it "for our own good" - they have serious ulterior motives in trying to get us to buy that shit - and it *is* bullshit, cause if human nature really WAS like that, we coulda never have build civilization in the first place cause we'd have never managed the mutual cooperation necessary to do it, would we now ?

But of course Kropotkin addresses it better, and in far more detail, within his treatise Mutual Aid, written back in 1902, so this isn't really a new issue, mind you.
http://www.calresco.org/texts/mutaid.htm

And therein lies the greater problem, a society built on not only stifling mental, emotional and social development, but actively intent on stripping the basic humanity from people in order to make them obedient and pliable, both mentally and emotionally, the end result of which is...

"Just Following Orders"

And we all know what horrors lie in that direction, don't we now ?

And yet, here we are - think of the machinery, how many PEOPLE, are involved in every act of corporate-economic exploitation, all of em "Just Following Orders" and not a one willing to stand up and say "I will NOT, this is wrong!" because they have their own ass to worry about in a society that as not only beaten out most of their humanity, but also hooked them deep into a debt-trap which reminds one of the Company Store of old, the student loan debt to get that piece of paper which is more of a join-the-club fee and a wall to keep the lower social classes out, the mortage which isn't EVER going to get paid in their lifetime, the auto-loan which by the time it's paid will require a new one, or worse, a never ending cycle of leasing agreements, plus the mandatory insurance, leaving many of the necessities like the home-biz PC being on credit and so they never actually OWN any of those toys, just the carrot hung in front of em to keep em running on the treadmill that enriches the elite, and should they stumble and fall, right into the jaws of the very machine they've been feeding others into...

Is it any wonder our society is insane when it's run by sociopaths who KNOW it is the perfect trap ?

Quote:
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
Joshua, from Wargames

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 4:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
If you want hopeful, humane, thoughtful, motivated children you have to make that happen VERY early in life. School age is just too late.

You just don't get it. And I'll spell it out even though it won't help your understanding; don't crush a kid's worth of themselves, and they won't grow up to accept a way of life that sees 'crushing' as an acceptable way to live.
Good Nazis & victims are made that way, dontcha know...

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 5:53 PM

Quote:
An insult would be me calling you a cock-sucking coward (posted for illustrative purposes only), not an observation that I see big holes in your thinking caused by powerful anti-authority emotions.

Sure it's "only illustrative" since you basically HAVE called me that. Twice in this thread. A couple of times in a few others.

Quote:
To whit: nowhere do I see you calling for government to be held accountable AT THE BALLOT BOX where they actually feel the consequences of their machinations. Nowhere do I see you considering concerted group political action. Nowhere do I see you even considering a leashed but powerful government acting on people's behalf.

I'm wondering how exactly you think people get elected without a BALLOT BOX. Seeing how I proposed getting people elected who could and would do campaign reforms? Seeing how that would require "concerted group political action?"

There actually were a few candidates I voted for this June, not that it makes any difference, based on where I live. Because voting is all that's required for a responsible citizen, instead of direct action. Uh huh. Yeah. You don't believe that any more than I do.

Quote:
The idea of a powerful government is so anathema to you you will not even consider it. That is a big blind spot to a solution that has been well-implemented elsewhere.

It's really more a road I'd rather not go down, because I see long term consequences that might actually accelerate a fascist takeover. Have you noticed that Europe had a major economic crisis on it's hands when Greece's troubles destabilized the Euro, and how it kinda sorta dragged the US back from the verge of a recovery? Have you noticed how inflated budgets and debts seem to plague certain socio-economic systems? Guess who's likely to take over if a government fails with a strong, centralized socio-economic system and a lot of law enforcement. But fine, blind spot, I can live with that.

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Sunday, September 5, 2010 6:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
That is a big blind spot to a solution that has been well-implemented elsewhere.

Examples?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, September 6, 2010 1:33 AM

Quote:
Byte and CTS are so paranoid about government they will gladly give their very beings to corporations.

What?!!!!

If anything, I am MORE anti-corporation than I am anti-govt.

That is why I keep leaving Firefly. I don't mind debate. But it bothers me that I can talk and talk, and people will completely misconstrue or outright lie about what I say.

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Monday, September 6, 2010 1:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Things Sig said in anger may not represent an accurate assessment of other people's philosophies.

Yeah. I think Sig is brainy as all get out, and like I said, I learn a lot from her.

But the one thing that pisses me off about her is that she (amongst others) likes to misconstrue opponent positions, accuse people of believing things they don't believe.

I don't know why, but that gets under my skin. It feels dishonest. It feels like fighting dirty.

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Monday, September 6, 2010 1:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
don't crush a kid's worth of themselves, and they won't grow up to accept a way of life that sees 'crushing' as an acceptable way to live.

Thank you!!!

Not all schools or teachers do this, but enough of them make "crushing" their primary purpose, as opposed to teaching, that parents should be very concerned.

Or maybe I should use the word, "breaking," rather than "crushing."

"School is a twelve-year jail sentence where bad habits are the only curriculum truly learned."
– John Taylor Gatto

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Monday, September 6, 2010 6:21 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I do tend to agree that you have, not so much a "blind spot", Sig, but a strong bias against government, which creeps into the majority of your threads. I don't think it's surprising, it's like my bias about the environment and Frem's about children. Start a topic on one or the other, and we're right in there. The difference is that I see you a bit more concentrated on anti-government, but it's a matter of degrees. I'd like to see you consider compromise sometimes, but I understand fully--no way I could compromise much on the environment, or Frem on treating children like people!

Funny, people keep talking about teachers crushing and "breaking" and so forth. Of course, I need to remember that my schooling was back in the '60s, when California had the highest quality education in the nation, but when I went to school, teachers on the whole were very encouraging of independent thinking and questioning.

I had only one teacher I can remember who fit that bill, and in that case it was only a personal bias. French III, Ms. Amendola, who was one of "those" French teachers who dressed elaborately and took vacations in France. She took a dislike to me, told me since she was the only French IV teacher, if I took it, she'd flunk me no matter WHAT my work deserved. And I was going to be a French teacher...that killed THAT right quick! (In the end, thank gawd!)

So is it different now, or was it like that in other parts of the country then, or what? I do have to take account that, in many parts of the country now, teachers are forced to spend more energy/time in controlling large class sizes than in actual TEACHING, but I've heard the argument about "breaking" before, and I wondered...?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, September 6, 2010 9:53 AM

Well, the behavior of school districts towards their charges tends to vary widely, and even more so their reasons for it, everything from treating normal limit-testing behavior as a psych disorder which is common in more affluent areas, down to not wanting to dodge bullets in the classroom, which is more of an inner-city thing - but again, I reference Perry here, a childs curiosity, IF you don't actively try to wreck it, is the best tool an educator really has.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/curiosity.htm

Quote:
For too many children, curiosity fades. Curiosity dimmed is a future denied. Our potential — emotional, social, and cognitive — is expressed through the quantity and quality of our experiences. And the less-curious child will make fewer new friends, join fewer social groups, read fewer books, and take fewer hikes. The less-curious child is harder to teach because he is harder to inspire, enthuse, and motivate.

So when the message of "education" is Sit down, shut up and OBEY! - well, it becomes a self-defeating cycle, and the harder they squeeze, the more the kids resist, and then it becomes a kind of bitter social warfare, and then...
The drugs, the camps, and what does it accomplish?

Also a large part of it is the endless cycle of having to teach a very rigid, exact-specification curriculum in order to get high scores of crap like MEAP or whatever Gov checklist they're currently using, in order to get the money, and actual education tends to get lost in the scrabble for the almighty dollar - and people always seem to forget that although inexperienced, children are not stupid, especially young teens, they can and will figure out what the game is, one more betrayal and outrage on top of many, and act out against it.

Children learn best when you indulge them, their natural curiosity, best guided with a gentle nudge or active participation by an adult they trust, and the latter is a real problem, because we lie to them, expose our hypocrisy, mistreat them cause we can, how the hell can we teach them if we do not, will not, earn their respect or even care about it - if we do not set a damn example ?
Or in my case, are at least honest about our own failures and the example we set, I make no claim to be any kind of decent role model, and prefer to be honest about my failures and what I learned from them instead of trying to deny I ever had any, which so many parents, my sister included, try to do - how can they learn from our mistakes if we won't admit to them, how can they trust us when we lie to them ?

You earn a kids respect, you're halfway there already, because out of that comes trust, and if they trust you, they listen, they learn - if they they fear and dislike you, you're wasting your time, and using force will never do anything but make it worse - many frustrated educators never learn this because they're starting from an uphill battle, trying to teach kids who've already been so mistreated by adults and their society, they will have to overcome a prejudice towards all adults in order to even have a chance of earning that respect, so they just throw in the towel on it, unaware of just how valuable an opportunity they are wasting.

And all it really takes is to treat them like human beings, and most adults, they don't.

Think of the lot of women not all that long ago, abused with impunity, sent to mental institutions for the natural reactions to the abuse they suffered, denied civil rights...

And all it took was the acknowledgement that they were human beings, and look where it is now ?

Down at the heart of it too, is this chilling thought - if we acknowledge them as human beings, that means we, adults as a whole, will have to answer to them for how we have treated them, that's also a big blind spot no one wants to look at or talk about, cause how DO you excuse the inexcusable when you knew it was wrong, but participated cause it was the social "normal", no matter how ethically wrong it was ?

How DO you answer for it ?

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 6, 2010 9:56 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Bang on, Frem, unfortunately...sigh... And of course into it comes the political agenda of changing textbooks...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, September 6, 2010 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Down at the heart of it too, is this chilling thought - if we acknowledge them as human beings, that means we, adults as a whole, will have to answer to them for how we have treated them, that's also a big blind spot no one wants to look at or talk about, cause how DO you excuse the inexcusable when you knew it was wrong, but participated cause it was the social "normal", no matter how ethically wrong it was ?

It has been succinctly boiled down here, I believe. Good one, Frem.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, September 6, 2010 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Bang on, Frem, unfortunately...sigh... And of course into it comes the political agenda of changing textbooks...

The Ministry of Truth thinks you do not double think enough. We were always at war with Eur-EastAsia.

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Monday, September 6, 2010 10:29 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

???

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, September 6, 2010 10:47 AM

Quote:
do tend to agree that you have, not so much a "blind spot", Sig, but an strong bias against government, which creeps into the majority of your threads I don't think it's surprising, it's like my bias about the environment and Fem's about children.

I think the Grammar Fairy would like to have a few words with you about this mess... ;)

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Monday, September 6, 2010 11:14 AM

Quote:
???

Just a dark joke about white-washing history.

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Monday, September 6, 2010 11:25 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oops. Missed a period. That's one for the Grammar Fairy (or are typos excusable?). Fixed it.

Byte: Oh, I get it.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, September 6, 2010 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I do tend to agree that you have, not so much a "blind spot", Sig, but an strong bias against government, which creeps into the majority of your threads.

I assume you mean me, and not Sig. Sig is NOT anti-government at all. I, however, am well known in RWED as a libertarian, and slightly less well known as an anarchist (at heart). You talk about compromise--there it is. I am willing to tolerate some small measure of government until such time that "men are ready" for "no government at all." This I never hid or denied.

What I was protesting for Kiki's portrayal of me as pro-corporation. I am anti-corporation; I agree with most of you that they are the root of much evil in our society. Where I depart is that I do not wish to use government force as a solution, and you all do. But just because I prefer non-violent/non-forceful limits to their power doesn't mean I somehow want to give them free reign and see them prosper at the expense of the public.

My husband attended public school in the 60's and 70's. His teachers attempted to crush his spirit in cruel and horrible ways because he had dyslexia. It is because he is as stubborn and rebellious as Frem that he survived. I know that not all schools do this, and not all teachers do this, but as I said, enough do......

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Monday, September 6, 2010 1:00 PM