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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Pizmo,

I can't dispute anything you've said, as it does seem there's a higher concentration of 'religious bully' in the Muslim world at the moment. I think it comes from the fact that much of the Muslim world is essentially a theocracy, with religious law being the rule of the land, rather than secular ideals of fairness and justice. I'd expect to see much the same in any country where the laws of the Old Testament dictated the details of the Justice System.

However, I don't think the actions of Muslims, Christian nutjobs, or Satanic cults should dictate our actions in the United States.

We do have secular laws and ideals, after all. We should uphold them even in the face of scary religious groups. It's the only way to defeat them without becoming them.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Jesus, if you want the soldiers out of danger, get them out of there.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Jesus, if you want the soldiers out of danger, get them out of there.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

When I heard that someone from government had *suggested* that the Quran burning shouldn't take place, I immediately wanted it to go forward. (I wasn't that much against it from the beginning, mostly due to the irony of how many Qurans would be purchased because of the burning. I enjoy laughing at irony and stupidity.)

I hate it when government gets involved in these matters. I don't want to hear any government officials say, "You shouldn't do that because of X" or "We wish you wouldn't do that because Y."

The main role of government is to protect people's rights. Government has no role in making opinions about people's rights unless a law is in debate that will affect those rights. When a governor or a police officer or a mayor or a senator or a defense department representative makes a statement of opinion, they don't seem to be speaking as private individuals. When cloaked in the mantle of office, they seem to speak as a fragment of the government itself.

And so it troubles me if a government official says, "Don't burn those Qurans, please, because it might put our soldiers in danger."

Jesus, if you want the soldiers out of danger, get them out of there.

The Quran burners are all asshats, but I don't want their asshattery interfered with, particularly not through official pressure. Such interference is even more grave than their offensive speech. It reminds me of when a government official suggested that opponents of the Community Center should be investigated. If any speech has the potential to destroy America, those words from a government representative came close.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
I went digging a bit, because frankly, I hadn't thought about them for over 20 years. I found this.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/5/2/17850/21034

OMG.

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Lynn referenced in his Beliefnet blogalogue last week a recent article in The Minnesota Independent about the more than $10 million in government funds that the Minnesota Teen Challenge has received over the past seven years. The Minnesota government has also raised federal funding for the Christian organization several times during that time period.

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Pizmo,

I can't dispute anything you've said, as it does seem there's a higher concentration of 'religious bully' in the Muslim world at the moment. I think it comes from the fact that much of the Muslim world is essentially a theocracy, with religious law being the rule of the land, rather than secular ideals of fairness and justice. I'd expect to see much the same in any country where the laws of the Old Testament dictated the details of the Justice System.

However, I don't think the actions of Muslims, Christian nutjobs, or Satanic cults should dictate our actions in the United States.

We do have secular laws and ideals, after all. We should uphold them even in the face of scary religious groups. It's the only way to defeat them without becoming them.

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I agree with your take - I think you address exactly why there is such difference between us, but doesn't it seem like "we" - the government - has been dictated to? If we have these free speech ideals then why was Jones even visited by anyone in Florida? Obviously, to avoid fundamentalist retribution. There's always going to be this implied threat with fringe Islam, "watch what you do or say..."

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

It reminds me of when a government official suggested that opponents of the Community Center should be investigated.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:


And you wonder why I don't consider Islam any kind of threat - to ME, the difference between Christianity and Islam is completely negligable, and the former is in fact a greater threat, getting ground in my face every fucking day by a society so indoctrinated in it that it's invisible to them.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I can't agree, Niki. If an individual soldier wants to write a letter as a civilian, then that's free speech.

But when a military official or administrator says something in an official capacity, they are representing their whole organization, and can be perceived to be representing the nation. Remember a not too distant statement from a BP official, lamenting his woe? Did people take it as one man's comments, or representative of the attitude of an entire company? Did they get mad at him individually, or at BP too?

Do I want the military or the government telling individuals who are exercising their rights that they shouldn't be doing it? Not even a little.

And just what are we talking about, exactly? Are we saying that the government or the military needs to educate people and explain to them that if we behave like jerks, the rest of the world might not like us?

That ship sailed. It was a U.S. Navy vessel. And it sailed to burn more than books.

Let the Department of Defense who is without sin cast the first stone. The idea that an organization which is actively bombing foreign countries is worried about those countries' reaction to a small Florida book burning is beyond ironic.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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