The Irony of Islamophobia...The rational man's irrational fear... by kaneman

The Chicago tribune keeps a tally of bombings around the world here....

http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/unrest-conflicts-war/guerrilla-act
ivity/bombings/16005002.topic

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Friday, September 10, 2010 5:57 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

So your response to killing in the name of god, is to...

... kill, in the name of YOUR god.

And you don't even see they idiocy in that equation.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 5:58 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

...and again, Christians slaughtered TONS of Muslims, and Jews, during the Crusades, "hundreds of years ago". There's no attempt to "tit for tat", only to remind that people of all religions (except perhaps Buddhism and a couple of others) have been violent in the name of their religion.

RADICAL Muslims have done horrid things in the world in our lifetime, absolutely. That doesn't change history, and there is NO "warm and fuzzy" anything--a pathetic term you keep using for some unknown reason. There is an effort to separate ISLAMaphobia from fear of terrorist ACTIONS. There is recognition that the radicals and terrorists do not represent all Muslims. You can't seem to grasp that even slightly, which is too bad.

I repeat: There are no "fuzzy feelings about Islam", there is an effort to separate ISLAM from radical TERRORISTS.

And you're partially right; Islamophobia is, or would be, a rational person's irrational fear--if people were being rational in the first place; so your statement is a dichotomy.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, September 10, 2010 6:05 AM

WAGNERAUDE

As a non-muslim Arab myself, I have to say I disagree. I can and do sometimes get funny looks from people. But I have never once recieved so much as a threat, despite living with some people who take the quran's word above all, the worst I can expect of people here is getting shunned. Most muslims are not, despite what you might think, extremesists or fundaentlist, and even the fundamentalist muslims are tolerant of others. Wikipedia defines a phobia as "an irrational, intense and persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, animals, or people." and that is exactly what I think islamophobia is. Yes, muslims will get angry whn you burn their holy book, but that is because you are burning their holy book, not because you think something else. I have so far tried to stay away from political and religious discussions on a Firefly forum, but this one hit a bit close to home. I have to say, Kaneman, you are wrong, and it's as simple as that, yes some Muslims have gotten violent, but this is not a part of Islam, this is just a part of human society. Wikipedia, for example lists at least 35 cases of violence against pro-abortion individuals and organizations, because these individuals and organizations believed a different thing from those inciting the violence. And I am sure with minimal research I can find all sorts of violence between beliefs. The problem is not that being a muslim makes you want to hurt people with a different set of beliefs, the problem is that being a human makes you want to hurt people with a different set of beliefs.

edit: wow, I wouldn't want to read that wall of text so tl;dr: kaneman's post is bull

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Friday, September 10, 2010 6:07 AM

Kaneman,

Here's 2 recent articles you may find interesting. I don't necessarily subscribe to the messages, but it's good to understand these points of view :

Islam Did Attack Us On 9/11
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/27439

Three Things You Did Not Know About Islam :
http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/islamic-jihad/6076-Three-Things-You-
Did-Not-Know-About-Islam.html

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Friday, September 10, 2010 6:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wagneraude:
...and it's as simple as that, yes some Muslims have gotten violent, but this is not a part of Islam, this is just a part of human society.

Wagneraude,

Are these parts of Islam as you know it?

Commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped;

Allows husbands to hit their wives;

Allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge – literally an eye for an eye;

Commands that a thief must have a hand cut off;

Commands that homosexuals must be executed;

Orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death;

Orders death for both Muslim and non-Muslim critics of Mohammad, the Qur’an and even Shari’a itself;

Orders apostates to be killed;

Commands offensive, aggressive and unjust Jihad.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 6:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
...and again, Christians slaughtered TONS of Muslims, and Jews, during the Crusades, "hundreds of years ago".

Care to mention why European Christian Crusaders went down to Jerusalem in the first place? Anything to do with responding to the invasion and enslavement of the holy land by Saracens (aka Muslims)?

Also, care to remember what happened 500 years before that? Something about the Moors'(aka Muslims) campaign to dominate and conquer; fortunately stopped in the south of France by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732?

If Martel had lost, there would never have even been such a thing as Western Civilzation today. And you and I and everything we know would never have existed.

Then there was the era of the Barbary Pirates (aka Muslims). We had to destroy them. Commodore Stephen Decatur took care of that problem.

Then various Muslim insurrections throughout history like one in the Phillipines that had to be crushed by General Black Jack Pershing after WWI.

Seems to me like every few hundred years Muslims try to take over the world.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 6:38 AM

WAGNERAUDE

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Are these parts of Islam as you know it?

Commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped;
while not specifically targeted towards gambling, see Ephesians 5:5-7; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Romans 1:29-32; 1 Corinthians 5:11

Allows husbands to hit their wives;
Deuteronomy 25:11-12; Leviticus 21:9; 1 Peter 3:5

Allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge – literally an eye for an eye;
leviticus 24:19-24:21; exodus 21:22-21:25; deuteronomy 19:21-19:21

Commands that a thief must have a hand cut off;
damn, you got me on this one

Commands that homosexuals must be executed;
Leviticus 20:13

Orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death;

Orders death for both Muslim and non-Muslim critics of Mohammad, the Qur’an and even Shari’a itself;

Orders apostates to be killed;

Commands offensive, aggressive and unjust Jihad.

Is this christianity as you know it?

Now, you might have noticed that I lost some steam at the end there, this is because I am not a muslim apologist, I am saying that the systematic fear of an entire culture is unjust and simply not smart. Kaneman's first sentence is absolutely true, it is a stupid fucking question to ask whether you should fear muslims, the answer is, quite simply, no.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 7:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wagneraude:
Is this Christianity as you know it?

No.
But it is happening today in Islamic theocracies like Iran. Whipping, stoning, hangings, ect., etc, and killing homosexuals.

Quote:
Now, you might have noticed that I lost some steam at the end there, this is because I am not a muslim apologist, I am saying that the systematic fear of an entire culture is unjust and simply not smart. Kaneman's first sentence is absolutely true, it is a stupid fucking question to ask whether you should fear muslims, the answer is, quite simply, no.

I appreciate you responding to the questions asked, and you certainly do not have to apologize for Muslims. Like to know if you agree or disagree with the previous article I posted about the 3 things people don't know about Islam. Is this what Muslims are taught inside mosques?

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Friday, September 10, 2010 7:55 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

Jong,

do you think all mosques teach the same things?

How many different versions of Christianity are there?

...................

Personally I'm an atheist...well, agnostic officially, and it's all unverifiable bullshit to me, but it seems to me that the more economically stable a people become the less crazy their religion becomes. The more you have to lose the less you are willing to lose it, the less you're willing to gamble on an uncertain after-life over the things you have.

I tend to think of the people who use these desperate people as not nearly as crazy...they have more to lose, and they aren't the ones strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up synagogues. They have an agenda that is tangible. They may believe in their god, they may believe whatever makes them feel good about what they're doing, but they're working on a whole different level.

And people have an will continue to use Christianity in the same way, but there was just a lot more money in it to change with the times. It's not like it hasn't been in its most established brands, incredibly regressive for the most part. In-spite of that though, the christian churches have evolved to accomodate a culture that would not have let them survive otherwise. This is not to suggest that there are never christian movements that are in favor of good things. There was a christian movement in favor of emancipation before the civil war...

but big churches are usually just trying to keep as much power as they can, appeasing the status quo as much as they can. that status quo has been slavery, converting and killing native americans, crusades, witch burnings, lutheran killings, catholic killings...etc. etc. depending on the time and the place.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:04 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

They have been doing it for hundreds of years in the name of their FUCKING god...read what I just wrote, again, once more. In the name of GOD.

So did Christians for centuries. They outgrew it. It can happen again.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:08 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

just to piggy back on my own thought here,

there have been progressive movements in countries like Iran, because education has improved, because economics have improved. In that kind of movement, should it win, and eventually it would, the religion of the region would have to become less opressive.

Of course we do no favors to such causes when we invade Iraq, and call our actions a "crusade." I wonder which power base that strengthens...

to say nothing of the carnage and turmoil that makes so many people more desperate, and more susceptible to a message of hate and vengeance. This in a country that was secular. Yes, yes, it had a vicious heartless dictator who had people executed all over the place...but at least it was only if they got in his way...

if the region was ripe for extremist religion before, it's a garden of insanity now.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:12 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped;

Allows husbands to hit their wives;

Allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge – literally an eye for an eye;

Commands that a thief must have a hand cut off;

Commands that homosexuals must be executed;

Orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death;

Orders death for both Muslim and non-Muslim critics of Mohammad, the Qur’an and even Shari’a itself;

Orders apostates to be killed;

Commands offensive, aggressive and unjust Jihad.

And the Christian bible demands the deaths of adulterers, homosexuals, people who work on Sunday, and anyone who eats lobster.

Both religions have a whole lot of really really stupid rules.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:14 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

I don't understand how anyone could use the bible to justify violence, unless of course they don't read it. The old testament has its share of scary moments, but Jesus came and made things right an' shiney! I don't see how it's possible to convince folk to commit violence in the name of Jesus unless they were unable to read about him on their own, which was likely the case in the crusades, Bible being in latin and all.

I can't speak for muslims or terrorist of course, but I would hazard a guess that the more violent ones don't read or interpret their holy book for themselves.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Personally I'm an atheist...well, agnostic officially, and it's all unverifiable bullshit to me,

Unverifiable bullshit? I guess you weren't paying attention when Shepherd Book explained about religion and faith to River.

Quote:
but big churches are usually just trying to keep as much power as they can, appeasing the status quo as much as they can. that status quo has been slavery, converting and killing native americans, crusades, witch burnings, lutheran killings, catholic killings...etc. etc. depending on the time and the place

The past is prologue. I live in the present. I've gone to church for many decades, and no one has ever advocated any of the things you cited. You cannot draw moral equivalencies to how our ancestors behaved in the past to our modern sensibilities. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, FDR interned Japanese Americans. We've grown and learned from our mistakes of the past. Has Islam?

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:23 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Uh, unless we ignore what Jesus said (which I assumed was supposed to be the most important part of the Christian Bible, after all Christian is supposed to mean Christ-like) I'm pretty sure Christians ain't commanded to kill anyone, quite the opposite. It's more like, save who ya can and leave God to deal judgment. Remember that whole "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" thing? Not our place to deal "God's judgement" on his behalf.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And the Christian bible demands the deaths of adulterers, homosexuals, people who work on Sunday,

Really? What modern Christian nations today are killing homosexuals? European countries? America? I must have missed those stories.

But they are whipping, stoning, and hanging people throughout the Islamic world though for that "crime."

Also, why do you and others here feel you have to denigrate Christianity to explain or justify the horrors of modern-day Islamic Fundamentalism? Stick to the subject, we're talking about Islam here. You should never point out other's bad behavior as an excuse for yours.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:40 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

I already said that Christianity has been modulated, and my point was the why of it.

you're trying to make islam its own special isolated circumstance...

I'm saying its as regressive as it is because it has thrived in a region that has for the most part remained a third world, impoverished culture. This is of course a chicken and the egg issue, in that the religion is partly responsible for that.

I would also argue, and if you haven't been listening to any rhettoric from some christians these days, maybe you've just missed it, that should we reenter third world status, we would certainly see more of the uglier side of "christian" potential.

Actually I don't see christians as bad, any more than I see muslims as bad, or people in general. I'm not trying to shit on christianity aside from my point that I think none of it is verifiable and is thus hard for me to take rationally. What I'm saying is that people are people, and people become more susceptible to extreme messages when they are more desperate. Religions(all of them), like governments, attract people who would happily use that desperation for their own gain, and having boogy men to channel outrage and even violence is also quite handy...especially if those boogy-men are in the way of your own domination.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So your response to killing in the name of god, is to...

... kill, in the name of YOUR god.

And you don't even see they idiocy in that equation.

When have I ever said kill them in the name of god? where do you get this shit? I say defend ourselves and do not minimalize the threat behind limp-wristed liberal "all is lovey dovey" ideologue.....no mention of god here. Kill them in the name of family and country.....just one girl's opinion

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Friday, September 10, 2010 8:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

They have been doing it for hundreds of years in the name of their FUCKING god...read what I just wrote, again, once more. In the name of GOD.

So did Christians for centuries. They outgrew it. It can happen again.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Sure, and that is horrible, but one doesn't justify the other. Christians stopped now it is time Muslims stop this threat of violence over anything....

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Friday, September 10, 2010 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wagneraude:
Is this Christianity as you know it?

No.
But it is happening today in Islamic theocracies like Iran. Whipping, stoning, hangings, ect., etc, and killing homosexuals.

It is also happening in Christian theocracies like Uganda. Only for some reason, nobody seems to want to talk about that. Probably because it's being done with the backing and approval of the GOP here in America.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Personally I'm an atheist...well, agnostic officially, and it's all unverifiable bullshit to me,

Unverifiable bullshit? I guess you weren't paying attention when Shepherd Book explained about religion and faith to River.

Quote:
but big churches are usually just trying to keep as much power as they can, appeasing the status quo as much as they can. that status quo has been slavery, converting and killing native americans, crusades, witch burnings, lutheran killings, catholic killings...etc. etc. depending on the time and the place

The past is prologue. I live in the present. I've gone to church for many decades, and no one has ever advocated any of the things you cited.

You mean no one IN YOUR CHURCH. But certainly, there are more than one brand of Christianity, you'd no doubt agree; and certainly, SOME of those churches most assuredly HAVE (and still do) advocate such things. To insist otherwise is to succumb to a delusional kind of blindness.

Quote:
You cannot draw moral equivalencies to how our ancestors behaved in the past to our modern sensibilities.

So do you promise to stop telling us what the Founding Fathers believed and meant, then?

Quote:
Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, FDR interned Japanese Americans. We've grown and learned from our mistakes of the past. Has Islam?

Have we? Bush suspended habeas as well, remember. And there have been more than a few around here who've gone with the "just nuke 'em all" blast when it comes to the mid-east. So HAVE we grown and learned?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wagneraude:
Is this Christianity as you know it?

No.
But it is happening today in Islamic theocracies like Iran. Whipping, stoning, hangings, ect., etc, and killing homosexuals.

It is also happening in Christian theocracies like Uganda. Only for some reason, nobody seems to want to talk about that. Probably because it's being done with the backing and approval of the GOP here in America.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

No-one cares about a barbaric black nation doing what they do...because..the powers that be know what I know and you disagree...Blacks are animals and can not create a just society...do you really think that is in the name of Jesus? Or just another reason to rape and pillage their own people?.....I know the answer, do you? Get your head out of your boyfriend's liberal ass and get a clue.....Sick and tired that all your arguments consist of "A" did it...so it is okay that "B" does it, but you never talk about the wrongness of it all...be a man...a gay man. Fag.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So your response to killing in the name of god, is to...

... kill, in the name of YOUR god.

And you don't even see they idiocy in that equation.

When have I ever said kill them in the name of god? where do you get this shit? I say defend ourselves and do not minimalize the threat behind limp-wristed liberal "all is lovey dovey" ideologue.....no mention of god here. Kill them in the name of family and country.....just one girl's opinion

Oh, you know very well where and when you said it. It was in that thread where you kept insisting everyone who disagreed with you must be gay. Remember?

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wagneraude:
Is this Christianity as you know it?

No.
But it is happening today in Islamic theocracies like Iran. Whipping, stoning, hangings, ect., etc, and killing homosexuals.

It is also happening in Christian theocracies like Uganda. Only for some reason, nobody seems to want to talk about that. Probably because it's being done with the backing and approval of the GOP here in America.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

No-one cares about a barbaric black nation doing what they do...because..the powers that be know what I know and you disagree...Blacks are animals and can not create a just society...do you really think that is in the name of Jesus? Or just another reason to rape and pillage their own people?.....I know the answer, do you? Get your head out of your boyfriend's liberal ass and get a clue.....Sick and tired that all your arguments consist of "A" did it...so it is okay that "B" does it, but you never talk about the wrongness of it all...be a man...a gay man. Fag.

And that's you in total. Anyone who disagrees with you is gay, and you see gays everywhere. So in addition to being a scared little Islamophobic bitch, you're also a homophobe, seeing "the gay" everywhere it isn't.

Uganda passed laws calling for the execution of homosexuals, and they did so at the urging and with the backing of the GOP and the conservatives in the U.S., and their claim is that it's all in the name of Jesus.

Funny that you're so willing to accept the religious aspects of it when Muslims do it, but are unwilling to accept the religious aspects of it when Christians do it, and even SAY they're doing it for religious reasons.

Says a lot about you.

Of course, given your hatred of blacks and gays, AND your own claims to be a black lesbian, that's really telling, too. You must think very little of yourself.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Friday, September 10, 2010 2:44 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

To respond to the articles you posted and crimes you listed, JS:

Saying 9/11 was an “attack by Islam” is identical to saying abortion doctors were “attacked by Christians”. Both represent extremists; that Al Qaeda made use of religion to incite people is no different than any other group utilizing any other religion to gain support for it’s goals.

I reject that “three things you didn’t know” article The articles are interesting, but biased and misleading, in one case, outright lies. The overriding goals of Islam are:

adl: balance
ahsan: compassion
ilm: knowledge
sabr: patience

All religions can be utilized for evil purposes, and virtually all have been. The fact of theocracy in Muslim countries makes it all the more easy to rule the people through religion, as was mentioned elsewhere.

Here’s the outright lie, which makes the other statements, to me, questionable: Taqiya means believers may CONCEAL THEIR MUSLIM FAITH when under threat:

Quote:
Taqiya is the Islamic practice of precautionary dissimulation whereby believers may conceal their Muslim faith when under threat, persecution or compulsion. The practice of concealing one’s faith in dangerous circumstances originates in the Qur’an itself, which deems blameless those who disguise their beliefs in such cases

Wikipedia

As to Shari’a law:

Quote:
All Muslims believe Sharia is God's law, but they have differences among themselves as to exactly what it entails. Modernists, traditionalists and fundamentalists all hold different views of Sharia, as do adherents to different schools of Islamic thought and scholarship. Different countries and cultures have varying interpretations of Sharia as well.

Introduction (or reintroduction) of Sharia is a longstanding goal for Islamist movements in Muslim countries. Some Muslim minorities in Asia (e.g. India) have attained institutional recognition of Sharia to adjudicate their personal and community affairs. In Western countries, where Muslim immigration is more recent, Muslim minorities have introduced Sharia family law, for use in their own disputes.

Wikipedia

The crimes and punishments you listed all have caveats, which you left out. For example:

Quote:
In accordance with the Qur'an and several hadith, theft is punished by imprisonment or amputation of hands. Several requirements are in place for the amputation of hands, they are:

There must have been criminal intent to take private (not common) property.
The theft must not have been the product of hunger, necessity, or duress.
The goods stolen must: be over a minimum value, not haraam, and not owned by the thief's family.
Goods must have been taken from custody (i.e. not in a public place).
There must be reliable witnesses.

All of these must be met under the scrutiny of judicial authority.

Wikipedia

There is also the thing about adultery.

Quote:
There are several conditions related to the person who commits adultery that must be met. One of the difficult ones is that the punishment cannot be enforced unless the person confesses, or there are four male eyewitnesses who each saw, simultaneously, the penis of the man inside the vulva of the woman. All of these must be met under the scrutiny of judicial authority.

Wikipedia

By making those flat statements, you are omitting all the caveats and thus misinforming. All the antiquated laws in our country, considered “Christian laws” by many (especially when they were created) are as absurd and unused as many of the laws of Shari’a, except by fundamentalists and extremists. Extremist Muslims abide strictly to Shari’a Law, but in different countries and different sects, Shari’a Law is not the same.

Check out some of the laws still on our books here in America: http://www.lawsome.net/.. We still have laws on the books like:

Quote:
Florida:

Women may be fined for falling asleep under a hair dryer, as can the salon owner

A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or she shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.

When having sex, only the missionary position is legal.

You may not kiss your wife's breasts.

Alabama;

Putting salt on a railroad track may be punishable by death.

Arkansas:

A man can legally beat his wife, but not more than once a month.

Indiana:

Check forgery can be punished with public flogging up to 100 stripes.

Louisiana:

One could land in jail for up to a year for making a false promise.

Nevada;

It's still legal to hang someone for shooting your dog on your property.

http://sneakykitchen.com/Humor/old_laws.htm

One could make the case for America spreading Democracy and the USSR spreading Communism just as one could say Muslims want to spread Shari’a Law. If you really think ALL Muslims everywhere want to force the world into Shari’a law, you are being disingenuous.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, September 10, 2010 2:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So your response to killing in the name of god, is to...

... kill, in the name of YOUR god.

And you don't even see they idiocy in that equation.

How about we just kill, to stop the other killers ?

“I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend”

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Friday, September 10, 2010 3:04 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thank you, Wagner, HappyTrader and Righteous, for speaking up. It won’t do any good, but I appreciate it, and I appreciate someone with fuller knowledge than most of us have, Wagner, for putting things in perspective.

Quote:
I can't speak for Muslims or terrorist of course, but I would hazard a guess that the more violent ones don't read or interpret their holy book for themselves.

Right on. The Imams interpret for them, and just like extremists everywhere, mold things to fit their own agenda.

Uhhh, JS, if you want current theology, again you have to deal with “Christians” who kill doctors, Christian hate crimes against homosexuals, and a whole bunch of other stuff done in the name of a religion. Because your individual experiences don’t include things in no way mitigates the fact that THEY HAPPEN.

Trader, there are parts of the Bible which do talk of violent punishments, but anyone who still abides by such things is missing the point. All religious texts can be used out of context to incite or excuse violence.

JS, I have no desire to “denigrate” Christianity; the effort is to show that virtually all religions can be used to justify bad actions, and since the argument is about Islam, a religion most of us are more familiar with can be shown to have its corollaries. We’re mostly familiar with Christianity, so it’s easiest to compare, and there are many comparisons.

Quote:
What modern Christian nations today are killing homosexuals?

It’s not legally condoned, but it’s happening here in America, and elsewhere. Can you deny that?

Righteous, excellently said:

Quote:
you're trying to make islam its own special isolated circumstance...

I'm saying its as regressive as it is because it has thrived in a region that has for the most part remained a third world, impoverished culture. This is of course a chicken and the egg issue, in that the religion is partly responsible for that.

I would also argue, and if you haven't been listening to any rhettoric from some christians these days, maybe you've just missed it, that should we reenter third world status, we would certainly see more of the uglier side of "christian" potential.

Kane, your cracks like libs say “all is lovey dovey” are so damned stupid...show me ONE such remark made by anyone, lib or otherwise, anywhere or at any time on this forum, or by anyone at any time anywhere?

Good point, Mike; Christianity IS being used to justify horrible things, right now, today, in some “Christian” nations. Leaving the GOP out of it, how does that negate that Islam has been used to justify horrible things? And I agree, I don’t think we’ve learned all that much from our own past; we ignore it when things come up (like 9/11) that stir emotions. Habeas is an excellent example...so is waterboarding, which is illegal in this country and by agreement of “Western nations”.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, September 10, 2010 3:08 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Attempts at rational debate and perspective seem impossible to me here. I've clarified some things for those who care; obviously there are those among us who don't care and who choose to view Islam as the enemy and choose to be incapable of recognizing that terrorists EVERYWHERE use relgion as a justification; nothing will make them see otherwise.

Ergo, why bother further? I'm grateful some have spoken up with rational arguments and facts, it's nice to see.

"Libs" aren't "fuzzy" or "lovey dovey", that's never been said or intimated. But it's obvious the other side is "hatey-hatey" and "nuke 'em all" and can't/won't see past it, whatever arguments and facts are presented. It's a shame we can't all recognize that religion--any religion--can be used to stir up the masses and justify horrible things, and separate those extremists and power-mongers who do so as individuals, not representative of the religion they are abusing.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, September 10, 2010 3:10 PM