The vast majority of Muslims around the world decry what the small minority of terrorists/extremists are doing as much, if not more, than anyone else. I..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Global Fatwa: against Suicide Bombing & Terrorism

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, September 16, 2010 16:45
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Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


The vast majority of Muslims around the world decry what the small minority of terrorists/extremists are doing as much, if not more, than anyone else. It is giving their religion and them a black name, but given the MSM would rather cover blood and guts, little else is brought to the attention of the public. This is sad, but thinking Muslim leaders see it as their job to counter the opinions being framed by the public of all Muslims as best they can, and by educating and taking action.
Quote:

A torturous spate of terrorism that continues unabated for last many years has brought Muslim Umma in general and Pakistan in particular into disrepute. There is no gainsaying the fact that the Muslims on the whole oppose and condemn terrorism in unequivocal terms and are not ready to accept it even as remotely related to Islam in any manner. However, a negligible minority amongst them seems to give it a tacit support. Instead of openly opposing and condemning terrorism, these people confuse the entire subject by resorting to misleading and perplexing discussions. Injustice being currently meted out to the Muslims in certain matters, double standards displayed by bigger powers and their open-ended and long-term military engagements in a number of countries, under the pretext of eliminating terror, form some of the fundamental local, national and international causes that underpin terrorism, and add a punch to the war cry of militants.

Similarly, the terrorists' recourse to violence, indiscriminate massacre of humanity, suicide bombings against innocent and peaceful people, and bomb blasts on Mosques, shrines, educational institutions, Bazaars, governmental buildings, trade centres, markets, security installations, and other public places, which are heinous, anti-human and barbarous steps in their very essence, have become a routine affair. These people justify their actions of human destruction and mass killing of hundreds of innocent people in the name of Jihad and thus distort, deform and confuse the entire Islamic concept of Jihad (holy struggle against evil). This situation is causing Muslims in general and the Muslim youth in particular to fall prey to doubts and reservations besides muddling their minds in respect of Jihad because those perpetrating these atrocities are from amongst Muslims. They practice Islamic rituals, perform acts of worship and wear appearance delineated in Sharia. This has put not only the common Muslims but a dominating majority of religious scholars and intellectuals too into a paradox, bewildered to know truly the exact and precise Islamic injunctions about the way of workings, methods and measures these individuals and groups have adopted to cause the havoc.

Furthermore, the Western media is in wont of over-projecting the incidents and episodes of terrorism and extremism about the Muslim world, and does not at all highlight positive and constructive aspects of Islam, its peaceful teachings and anthropological philosophy and orientation. So much so, that it does not even reflect hatred, condemnation and opposition towards extremists, militants and terrorists that permeate the Muslim societies. The negative outcome of this attitude has appeared by way of bracketing both Islam and terrorism together. Consequently, the western mind starts conjuring up the picture of terrorism and extremism at a slight mention of the word 'Islam', putting the Western-bred and educated youth in a quandary, leaving them more beleaguered than before. The present generation of Muslim youth in the entire Islamic world is also falling victim to mental confusion and decadence intellectually, practically and in the domain of beliefs and religious tenets.

Because of this situation, two kinds of negative responses and destructive attitudes are forming up: one in the form of damage to Islam and the Muslim world, and second a threat to the Western world in particular and entire humanity in general. The damage to Islam and Muslim world is that the Muslim youth, not completely and comprehensively aware of Islamic teachings, regard terrorism and extremism as emanating from religious teachings and attitudes of religious people under the influence of media; hence, they are getting alienated from religion. This misplaced thinking is leading them to atheism, posing lethal dangers to the Muslim Umma in future. Contrary to this, the damage threatening the Western world in particular, and entire humanity in general, is that the above-mentioned policies and racial profiling of the Muslims is inciting negative response among some of the Muslim youths who regard these forays against Islam as an organized conspiracy and enmity by some influential circles in the western world. By way of reaction, they are either gradually becoming extremists, militants and terrorists, departing moderation and poised outlook on life, charged with hatred and revenge, or are being grown and groomed into the design. Thus, the Western policies are instrumental in producing and inducting new potential terrorist recruits and workforce, with no end in sight. In both the cases, the Muslim Umma as well as humanity are heading towards a catastrophe.

Moreover, these circumstances are heightening tension, creating larger trust deficits between the Islamic and the Western worlds. The increase in terrorism is paving the way for greater foreign interference in and pressure on the Muslim states. This widening gulf is not only pushing the humanity towards inter-faith antagonism at the global level but also reducing to nothingness the possibilities of peace, tolerance and mutual coexistence among different human societies on the globe.

Dr Tahirul Qadri



Quote:

Qadri s a Canada-based Pakistani Islamic Scholar and former professor of international constitutional law at University of the Punjab. Qadri is the founder of Minhaj-ul-Quran International, a worldwide broad-based organization. Their objective is the promotion of a moderate vision of Islam, the establishment of unity and understanding between communities and religions, and educating youth in classic Islam. He also founded The Minhaj University of which he is the head of the Board of Governors. He also founded an international relief charity, Minhaj Welfare Foundation.
Wikipedia



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
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Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Further from Dr. Qadri
Quote:

What does it take to build orderly societies? What does it take for you, me and others to feel safe and live in peace? Can we follow Jesus and remove the fears and bring peace to all?

The Quran says: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Allah Knows and is Aware" (49:13).

We have to consciously create institutions and systems that will become a catalyst to a positive change and bring about cohesive functioning of the society. It is our duty to keep law and order and faithfully guard the safety of every citizen. As an individual, I cannot be safe if the people around me aren't; it is in my interest to seek peace for all of us.

We have a monumental task to repair the world, and we will do our part in working towards a world of coexistence, one person at a time. We are committed, and now help us God. Amen.

I wonder how much those who hate and fear Islam do in their daily lives to help others and take action to ring about a better world?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:51 AM

MINCINGBEAST


To be clear: I hate Islam.

I’m an ardent atheist, and an asshole besides, so I do quite a bit of criticizing. When I criticize Christians, my fellow liberals congratulate me for being such a free-thinking atheist. When I criticize Jews, I am a self-loathing kike. When I criticize Islam, I am a bigot in the grip of fear and hate.

Niki, your push back against “Islamophobia” seems like an attempt to offer a more nuanced view of Islam than the typical “OMFG TEH MUSLIMS IS TERRORISTS!!!” This is admirable. It may also be a product of the liberal’s reflexive identification with the little guy/the other (which I largely share). This is understandable. Your rage for fairness, however, distorts and leads to the equally unfair view that the debate over Islam is merely the latest America’s latest trial of religious tolerance, and all those expressing misgivings with Islam are the spiritual inheritors of the Nazis. This is B.S.

Muslims, extremist or not, take positions that raise concerns about their religion’s compatibility with a secular, pluralistic world (the world I’d like to live in). Not Islam as inert words in a book, because in that case we would hardly expect any different from Christianity, but rather Islam as it is interpreted and practiced. Muslims share many fundamental assumptions that are troubling with the purported “tiny minority of extremists”. Like other religions, Islam purports to be the final word of God; history clearly ended in the 7th century. Islam treats the very notion of a church/state divide with suspicion. Believers consider the Koran to be the inerrant word of god (god presumably speaks 7th century Arabic, and nothing but), and everything in the Koran to be literal truth. Hence, there is no room for reform, doubt, or dissent. Moreover, Islam evidences a distressing sense of entitlement when it comes to shutting people up, Muslim or otherwise.

Christianity may have once freely demonstrated such unpleasant tendencies, and still does to some degree, but they are now largely a relic of the past thanks to the Reformation and Enlightenment. Islam has not experienced such a fundamental change, and so I detest it as a pre-enlightenment, hell scratch that, a Bronze age belief system that presumes to inflict its norms on me at worst, and at best holds itself immune to criticism or self-reflection. Hence, fuck Islam.

If that makes me a bigot, I am untroubled by my bigotry.

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Wednesday, September 15, 2010 11:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I don't "reflexively" root for the littl guy at ALL! You don't have to believe that, but I know it's true. But if so, how do you explain my being for Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi in the coming midterms? NEITHER is a "little guy".

And that's not why I'm trying to bring PERSPECTIVE--nothing else--to the discussions which rage on and on about Islam being The Enemy and all Muslims being terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. It's because it's untrue, and the more it is fostered to the American people, the more they will believe it and hate and fear Muslims...and how does that do anyone any good??? Please tell me. I want to know how fostering hate and fear is helpful to any country, any society at all, I really do.
Quote:

Muslims, extremist or not, take positions that raise concerns about their religion’s compatibility with a secular, pluralistic world (the world I’d like to live in). Not Islam as inert words in a book, because in that case we would hardly expect any different from Christianity, but rather Islam as it is interpreted and practiced.
That is a flat statement that is flatly UNTRUE! To say "Muslims", not "some Muslims" or "Muslims in other countries" (which still wouldn't be true without the caveat) is a flat-out falsehood. I see all the things I've posted in all the threads were things you choose to dismiss out of hand with no thought whatsoever.

Millions and millions of Muslims are out there every day, feeding and clothing the hungry and poor, helping in disasters, contributing to causes, fostering understanding and compassion, and with NO desire to convert or destroy us. I've shown examples, RECENT exampls for heaven's sake, that prove otherwise.

MOST Muslims practice their faith as it is intended...we just don't hear about them, dammit. That's what I'm trying to help change by bringing news that our MSM doesn't care to report because it's not exciting enough, so people can understand better and generalize less.

If I identify with anyone, it is the Muslims I KNOW, here and those I knew in Afghanistan, who are good people, whose religion is part of their thinking and inspires them to view others, other religions and other countries with compassion. All we see are the riots in the streets...we don't even get an overview to see how big those riots are, but they are a MINORITY, most Muslims go about their everyday lives just like we do, holding jobs, caring about their families, abiding by the law.

I don't think you're a racist...anti-religion, as am I. Buddhism isn't a religion as much as a philosophy; nobody preaches to us, we have no God to bow to or look to for good or bad, no holy books, we don't pray and we don't hate any religions. But as is obvious from what I write, I pretty much hate ALL organized religions and am all too well aware of how they can be utilized for evil. ALL religions.
Quote:

Hence, there is no room for reform, doubt, or dissent. Moreover, Islam evidences a distressing sense of entitlement when it comes to shutting people up, Muslim or otherwise.
That is equally patently false. Again, that's the picture the MSM and our government paint for you, it's not reality for the majority of Muslims, especially American Muslims.

The thing is, all you people know is what you hear on the news. Do any of you actually KNOW any Muslims? I tend to doubt it, from all the flat statements I read. I do, I have, and I've been in their homes and had them in mine. They are PEOPLE, and I can't seem to get that through to you here, except those who alrady understand the concept.

I don't see you as a racist or a bigot, but I see a HUGE amount of prejudice. I repeat: ALL we hear about is the negatives of how Islam has been INTERPRETED by some leaders; we do not hear about how everyday Muslims follow their faith. Obviously by giving examples, I'm getting nowhere at all.

It was suggested that, rather than argue the point, positives about Islam and Muslims be put up. That's why I'm doing it. And, as I expected, it doesn't make a dent in the hatred of those here who WANT to hate. It is, however, just a bit surprising that it doesn't even make a dent in omeone as fairly reasonable as you, and that you continue to view Islam as a whole as The Enemy.

I would suggest you actually LEARN, educate yourself, before condemning all Muslims or Islam itself, but I think that would be fruitlss. It's a shame a simple perspective that "they're not all the enemy" can't get through here, it makes me feel hopeless about America as a whole.

I put up the TRUTH...if you choose to believe it's not an honest picture of what Islam and the majority of Muslims represent, there is nothing more I can do, except feel sad for you and for the misconceptions you and other Americans cling to.

Tell me this: If many, many Muslims abhor and speak up loudly against the extremists; if millions of Muslims, by following the faith of Islam, give of their time and money to help people in need, how CAN you say all the things you said and truly believe them? If millions of Muslims live in America and do so quietly just like most of the rest of us, how can that conceivably be incompatible with a "secular, pluralistic world"???

And yes, I'm angry; I expected just a BIT more from you, Mincing, than flat statements that all Muslims are what you say they are and all Islam is what you say it is.

I can't take any more of this; I'll come back fresh, but I will NOT stop trying to get through to at least those of you who are capable of making up your own minds.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, September 15, 2010 12:24 PM

MINCINGBEAST


Niki, I'll grant you the special privilege to determine that Islam is what you say it is, and Muslims are what you say they are, if I may enjoy the same privilege.

My intent was not to enrage you, though I freely admit that enraging people is good sport. I find your attempt to bring nuance, or "perspective" as you call it admirable. My aim was not to make a “flat” statement about the universal perfidy of Muslims, but to suggest that Islam as a belief system is detestable no matter how friendly the unfortunate adherent.

I think a pluralistic society is groovy notion, but so long as Muslims insist on special rights and accommodations, including the right not be insulted, we have less pluralism and more pockets of privileged 7th century barbarity.

If it makes me seem any less wretched and wicked, I do know folks from a Muslim background, which may color my views. Those I get along with are functionally apostates, and would probably not be welcome with the relatives in the old country (Indonesia, Iran and Libya). Those I did not get along with I knew in a professional capacity, in the context of domestic violence.

That said, I really have nothing left on the subject of Islam that does not require a nick, consonant rich four letter word.

best wishes,

mb

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Wednesday, September 15, 2010 6:28 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Islam as a belief system is detestable no matter how friendly the unfortunate adherent."

Hello,

I'll buy that for a dollar, and I feel the same way about most of the Old Testament and much of Revelations. I am often grateful that only a minority advocate taking these books at face value.

I live on in the sincere hope that if God did send a message to humanity, we proceeded to misinterpret and rape the message either on purpose or by accident over and over again through the course of many generations.

The alternatives for me are to believe that no such message was ever attempted... troubling... or that the message is accurate... very troubling.

But at least most folks in my neck of the woods are able to recognize the batshit insane sadistic bullshit when they come across it, and simply pretend it isn't there while whistling loudly.

--Anthony


Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:45 PM

RIGHTEOUS9




If the problem with Islam is how it is often interpretted and practiced, and I would agree that that is the problem, then where it is practiced decently and interpretted peacefully, it would stand to reason that it is not a problem, save that common reliance on faith over fact that often accompanies religions,

though as regards islam and all other religions, inspite of my own atheism, I do find their contribution to culture and mythology enriching, and so long as spirituality does not corrupt science, I think it might even be a good thing in its own right...

That said, religion, like politics, like any foundation that fungus can grow on, will certainly get its share of fungus. As mincing beast says, the books are not the defining factor...it's all in the interpretation, it's all in the conditions it takes for people to let themselves be led into metaphorical darkness.

And, not surprisingly, the overwhelming message of islamic churches in America is not one of jihad. Also, not surprisingly, although Germany in the thirties was probably predominantly christian, no christian virtue stayed them from an anti-jewish fervor that came to such horrifying results.(I presume this event came after the enlightenment spoken of?)

It has been and always will be about education and about the comfortable standard of living and infrastructure that supports it, or the lack thereof. Germans were so susceptible to this new "religion," I'll say 'in-spite of' their upbringings, because they were hungry and scared, and had little hope.

I don't imagine desperation is so foreign to many natives of the middle-east, and it makes them ripe for picking. Seems like picking season is right around the corner in our own back yard these days too, though it isn't muslims doing the picking...

What I find so funny about this continued discussion, is that people KNOW this. People know that nothing is beyond manipulation. History is being rewritten in this country today, the Constitution held up by people who seem to have never read it, today.

The only thing that keeps the crazy in check in this nation is our once educated populace, and our once economic stability. We're probably holding on by a thread.

So, if nothing is uncorruptible, then why I ask, would anybody take the public face of American Islam, which is almost universally a western religion in its tolerance, and attempt to paint it with the same brush as the extreme sects overseas, as if it were the people themselves that are deviant by nature?

I mean, if it's not education and stability, as I contend, and if its not the book itself that has some magical evil properties(though I think some of you believe this one...snicker...),

then aren't those of you who are criticizing the religion saying that the people who follow it by nature are evil...no matter the sect, no matter what it "seems to preach?" and Do you get to decide that?

There are so many sects of christianity, so many variations, so much mistrust between them...but there has to be only one brand of islam? Seriously?

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Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:41 PM

DMAANLILEILTT


I would argue Islam seems to be a lot like pre-Industrial Revolution Christianity. The Revolution and Reformation both started mainstream Christianity on a path that enabled it to remain a part of life in the liberal democracies most Western World now is.

Islam wasn't even a millenia old when this happened and when modern technology was introduced to the Islamic nations, it was given to the ruling classes that drew on religion as part of its power base. In Europe the technology was invented and used by the then-new middle class which enabled them to embrace new politics that got rid of the aristocracy, i.e. Liberalism, Socialism, etc.

Since Islam has never gone through a social shift like the Industrial Revolution or the Reformation, the texts have never really had to be re-interpretted. When there is another massive technological revolution (probably space travel or robotics) maybe Islam will go through its own Reformation.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Righteous, fantastaically accurate and well said. Dmann too; I think both of you pegged the situation with thoughtfulness and accuracy.

The history and politica stuff I've read said yes, it was the Industrial Revolution which left the Middle East behind, and they haven't caught up yet. They want the same things we have, but can't attain them (yet), so are rife for hatred of us. If they would just catch up, it would help, but I don't see THAT happening any time soon, either.

I've been saying here for ages how easy it is to get people to buy into religion (and it's worst "interpretations") when their lives are desperate, and the afterlife is the only hope. I KNOW that's how it was in Afghanistan when we were there, and given they've been a "conquered nation" virtually ever since, and "bombed back to the stone age" as we were so intent on doing, I don't imagine life for the average person has changed much.

It's exactly as both of you said; the inability of some here to recognize that is purely a sign of their own fear, hate and prejudice, and will not change. We can only hope it abates to a decent degree before it gets out of hand. Unfortunately, education isn't the answer, in my opinion, as education is something the uneducated don't WANT, and RWAs just disregard it. The best solution is for them to KNOW Muslims in their lives, but that's not about to happen, either.

We need most LEADERSHIP which will respond responsibly to what's happening, but that, too, seems impossible at this time. Sadly. The right WANTS people afraid; that's how they ruled us so well and trampled on the Constitution during the Bush administration--they're not stupid, and politics has proven throughout history to be the best way to manipulate people. It's working overseas, too; fear of the huge, aggressive, conquering nation of America scares the pants off them, especially since we've PROVEN it time and again. Fear leads to hate leads to violence, so it's worked wonderfully there. Now it's working pretty well here. Essentially; people are stupid and easily led.

We can only do what we can do to get through to those who are open to the facts, and accept the rest, I guess.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, September 16, 2010 4:45 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Dmaan, it's always struck me as odd, about our history how no one wants to admit the Puritans were ANTI-reformist, they wanted a return to the bad ole days, and most of the "persecution" they suffered under was wholly justified!

They came over here for "religious freedom", yeah, sure, freedom to be dicks, and the first thing THEY did is persecute the natives.

Hell, mosta those "tolerant" charters and whatnot remind me of Henry Ford sayin "they can have any color they want, so long as it's black!" - a false choice, when you think about it, cause they had no room for "heathens and savages" aka non-christians, in their little worldview.

So in short, the TRUTH of it is that america was founded initially by a bunch of intolerant fundamentalist pricks of the worst order - not that anyone else will admit it...

But here's the thing, WE got past it, well, kinda-sorta, at least on paper, we at least TRY (and fail and fail and fail) to hold the IDEAL, right ?

But it's a damn poor statement that the last guy in the middle east to have tried to raise and support that ideal - WE left swinging from a rope.

So I think until we settle our own shit, we ain't got no cause to complain about anyone elses religious nuttery.

We CAN be better, we HAVE been better, and it shames me as an american that we don't try hard enough, that the same kinda fundamentalist asshats who are such a misery over there, are rabidly supported over here just cause they offer the accepted brand of it ?

Like hell, which is why ya need to vote for me!

As Evil Overlord, I'll make them HAPPY, cause I'll show em what bein persecuted really is, and give those sadomasochistic little twits ALL the misery they so desperately desire to wallow in, and then some!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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