Fewer people are getting married, fewer people BELIEVE in marriage. We're doomed! Doomed, I tell you, DOOMED!!! (Isn't that what the Religious Right tel..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

To be (married) or not to be (married)

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, November 19, 2010 17:44
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Thursday, November 18, 2010 11:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Fewer people are getting married, fewer people BELIEVE in marriage. We're doomed! Doomed, I tell you, DOOMED!!! (Isn't that what the Religious Right tells us?) God is going to smite us with his wrath, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes, floods...omigosh, floods...somebody call Noah!!
Quote:

In 1960, nearly 70% of American adults were married; now only about half are. Eight times as many children are born out of wedlock. Back then, two-thirds of 20-somethings were married; in 2008 just 26% were. And college graduates are now far more likely to marry (64%) than those with no higher education (48%).

When an institution so central to human experience suddenly changes shape in the space of a generation or two, it's worth trying to figure out why. This fall the Pew Research Center, in association with TIME, conducted a nationwide poll exploring the contours of modern marriage and the new American family, posing questions about what people want and expect out of marriage and family life, why they enter into committed relationships and what they gain from them. What we found is that marriage, whatever its social, spiritual or symbolic appeal, is in purely practical terms just not as necessary as it used to be. Neither men nor women need to be married to have sex or companionship or professional success or respect or even children — yet marriage remains revered and desired.

When an institution so central to human experience suddenly changes shape in the space of a generation or two, it's worth trying to figure out why. This fall the Pew Research Center, in association with TIME, conducted a nationwide poll exploring the contours of modern marriage and the new American family, posing questions about what people want and expect out of marriage and family life, why they enter into committed relationships and what they gain from them. What we found is that marriage, whatever its social, spiritual or symbolic appeal, is in purely practical terms just not as necessary as it used to be. Neither men nor women need to be married to have sex or companionship or professional success or respect or even children — yet marriage remains revered and desired.

The Marrying Kind

In 1978, when the divorce rate was much higher than it is today, a TIME poll asked Americans if they thought marriage was becoming obsolete. Twenty-eight percent did.

Since then, we've watched that famous royal marriage and the arrival of Divorce Court. We've tuned in to Family Ties (nuclear family with three kids) and Modern Family (nuclear family with three kids, plus gay uncles with an adopted Vietnamese baby and a grandfather with a Colombian second wife and dorky stepchild). We've spent time with Will and Grace, who bickered like spouses but weren't, and with the stars of Newlyweds: Nick & Jessica, who were spouses, bickered and then weren't anymore. We've seen some political marriages survive unexpectedly (Bill and Hillary Clinton) and others unpredictably falter (Al and Tipper Gore).

We've seen the rise of a $40 billion-plus wedding industry, flames fanned by dating sites, and reality shows playing the soul-mate game — alongside the rise of the prenup, the postnup and, most recently, divorce insurance. We care about marriage so much that one of the fiercest political and legal fights in years is being waged over whom the state permits to get married. We've seen a former head of state's child (Chelsea Clinton) marry after living with her boyfriend and a potential head of state's child (Bristol Palin) have a child before leaving home.

So, where are we on the marriage question? Less wedded to it. The Pew survey reveals that nearly 40% of us think marriage is obsolete. This doesn't mean, though, that we're pessimistic about the future of the American family; we have more faith in the family than we do in the nation's education system or its economy. We're just more flexible about how family gets defined.

More at: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2031962-2,00.html#ixzz1
5fi7YlKP



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Thursday, November 18, 2010 11:57 AM

CHRISISALL


Go ahead Niki, mock the sanctity of the Holy union between a man & woman. God will make a pillar of salt outta you. Be fearful. Be very fearful.
And say three Hail Mary's.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...





Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Thursday, November 18, 2010 12:37 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Boycott marriage until it's nondiscriminatory! Marriage is the new "bus."

When they lose all those license fees, they'll come around. Or maybe not....

However, a boycott might convince DeBeers to start lobbying legislators....



----
Arrogant and proud of it.

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Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:38 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

By the time the government makes marriage all-inclusive and fully diverse, almost no one will get married any more. Were it not for social programming, I doubt I'd be married right now. Oh, I'd love my woman, and I'd be living with her, and sharing my life with her...

But it would have never occurred to me to sign a contract or make a legal construct out of it.

When the day comes that any adult can marry any other adult, or several, of any gender or lack thereof, and enjoy complete freedom in their romances and relationships-

Well, then I suspect people will realize that they don't need 'official' marriage after all, and will simply prepare whatever arrangements please them and serve their needs.

--Anthony


Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:57 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Not surprising that many folks have lost faith in marriage. I don't believe I ever had any, but that's probably cause I'm in the demographic with parents who got married in the 80's and then later divorced. Most folks I know my age also have divorced parents.

It makes me want to be extra careful when I make that kind of decision so I get it right. It's also making my girlfriend very impatient. She's been hearing wedding bells in her ears for like a year and a half now but I told her I wouldn't even consider it until I had a better handle on things financially. I wouldn't feel right if all I could offer was college debt. Also, this busy me time, maybe a couple of years 'afore I have to really think about it again.

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Thursday, November 18, 2010 5:09 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Too many legal relationships are still defined by marriage, whether one wants to be married or not.

Inheritance, inheritance for one's children, medical decisions, medical privileges, immigration, and insurance are just some of the benefits you get only if you are married. If the govt ever does away with linking legal benefits to marriage, THEN we might see folks choosing not to marry.

But I suspect that would never happen.

----
Arrogant and proud of it.

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Thursday, November 18, 2010 5:15 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


I don't see a single reason to sign a contract, other than health insurance or other legal things. I've never pursued marriage for the sake of marriage, and I'm one of the last unmarried women in my peer group, likely for that very reason. I would love to share my life with someone, but marriage isn't going to magically make that happen, so I don't look for just the ring and the signature. Not to mention that my most successful relationship was with someone who never had a single positive thought about marriage as an institution, and made it clear from the start that it didn't interest him. If I had looked solely for marriage potential, I would have missed out on a great thing.


Just because something can't be explained doesn't mean it becomes yours.

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Thursday, November 18, 2010 5:40 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
... I don't believe I ever had any, but that's probably cause I'm in the demographic with parents who got married in the 80's and then later divorced. Most folks I know my age also have divorced parents.

... but I told her I wouldn't even consider it until I had a better handle on things financially. I wouldn't feel right if all I could offer was college debt.



I also have divorced parents, although I can say now it was a good thing, not so when I was 12. And my mum did the hateful divorce better than anyone... I can say them being divorced and watching how hateful it got has made me be more careful about not screwin' up mine.

Marraige has been good for me. I'm the responsible bill payin one and he's the gotta go to work one. And I married him back when he was workin at McD's and 30 grand+ in the hole... There will always be debts... Fridges break, so do bodies. I'm frugal and we never get anything paid off.

You wanna get married, get married- or don't. Just don't have regrets...

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Friday, November 19, 2010 7:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Interesting. I guess we're representative of the numbers...unless all those who support it are keeping quiet.

As I've said often, neither Paula nor I, or our "spouses" would have bothered getting married if it weren't for (on my part) putting Jim on my dental insurance and (on her part) having to be married for him to live in the Park-sponsored housing with her.

My parents weren't divorced, and were the perfect example of those who SHOULD have been. They turned me against marriage something fierce, added to the fact that, growing up when I did, it was something to "protest" for many of us.

Yes, there are now a lot of legal reasons to do it currently, as you said CTTS. But who's to say that, as fewer marry and more opt for legal contracts or "common-law" marriage, that won't change?

Both Paula and I would be "common-law" spouses if we'd never married, as in California after seven years together, that's what you're legally considered if you want to be.

I look at women like your girlfriend, Happy, as the last remnant of those conditioned that a woman's position is to grow up, get married, have children and be a stay-at-home wife. I'll bet, like the rest of those, she envisions a huge, fancy wedding, too? Most of them do, and it absolutely boggles my mind to see them put themselves in the hole so enormously just when they're starting out; or put their parents in the hole for one day of complete attention on themselves and showing the world...whtaever it is they're showing the world.

We have a woman on the website I run who got married; we went through the entire process with her. She posted links to her wedding dress, her bridesmaid's dresses, etc., posted all the professional photos of the wedding, they went on a fancy honeymoon somewhere in the Caribbean, and when they got home, she lost her job and he got a serious medical condition. The're hurting something fierce, but had a baby anyway...

It's a myth and I feel sorry for those who want it so bad and go into it whole-hog, partly because I think those people don't have a good grasp on what mariage IS, as well. I doubt the see much beyond the wedding day and the supposed "happily ever after" fairy tale. It's sad, in many ways.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Friday, November 19, 2010 7:49 AM

CANTTAKESKY


I am one of those who believes I shouldn't have sex until I got married. So I had to get married.

(Of course, that only applies to me, mind you. I make no judgments on anyone else.)

----
Arrogant and proud of it.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 9:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


On that subject:
Quote:

You've been living with the love of your life for months or years. Things are going great. So why get married at all and possibly mess up a good thing?

Cohabiting couples often decide to get married for one of two reasons, experts say.

The couple might see marriage as a jump-off-the-cliff type declaration that "we're all in" this relationship. Or the "I do's" are said because the person who has been reluctant to walk down the aisle finally decides that step would be less painful than losing their partner.

.....

But that pre-wedding, living together arrangement should have a limit, according to Britain's Prince Charles

While responding that he was thrilled that his son Prince William had finally asked his live-in girlfriend Kate Middleton to marry him, Prince Charles also remarked, "They've been practicing long enough."

.....

But what if one cohabiting partner can't get the other to commit?

Psychologist Diana Kirschner suggests taking a "cost of loss stance" to try to create commitment in the other person. She says it is not an ultimatum but a communication that the relationship may be lost if it doesn't proceed to marriage.

Start by deciding what relationship you want, she says. That may be finding a committed partner to build a life together and have children. But whatever your love intention is, she says, take a stance for yourself.

"You announce it to your partner. 'I'd love you to be the one. Here's why I think you would be great. However, if you're not available to do this, I will be taking measures to look at other people."

Kirschner, author of "Love in 90 Days: the Essential Guide to Finding Your Own True Love," says in many cases that kind of statement is not voiced but it may be in the air.

"If the man is dragging his feet, he knows his partner is not going to hang in there much longer because she may want to have children, she's getting in her late 30s -- he just knows."

And it's that moment when the potential for loss occurs, Kirschner says, that the couple "becomes very ripe for commitment, becomes very ripe for moving forward."

More at http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/11/18/cohabiting.trigger.marriage/index
.html?hpt=Sbin



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Friday, November 19, 2010 9:45 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
it absolutely boggles my mind to see them put themselves in the hole so enormously just when they're starting out; or put their parents in the hole for one day of complete attention on themselves and showing the world...whtaever it is they're showing the world.


I am so with you there, Niki. I have a friend who is "engaged" and is going to spend something like $10,000 on a "wedding" next year. Why do I put those words in quotes? Well, I'll tell you. She's engaged to another woman. The marriage won't be legal unless something changes drastically. They're going to drop the money anyway. Why? It's beyond my comprehension. I say, if you need the legal rights, go to the courthouse and sign the thing and be done. If you really want to throw a party, that's fine too but throw one within your means. These in many ways wonderful and beautiful women are going to throw a huge party that is not within their means and not even have legal rights to show for it! Of course, if I voiced this to them, I would doubtless be the bad guy. But I think it's a huge financial mistake. Even if they were gaining something from it, I would think it was a financial mistake, but to have the expense without the tie being legal just seems to compound the mistake.


Just because something can't be explained doesn't mean it becomes yours.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 10:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow. That's wild...what does it say about my premise that women do it because they're conditioned to marry, have children, etc.? Obviously this doesn't fit, but I think it might still be connected. Maybe "doing it up big" is their way of defense, saying "we're just as good as a hetero couple"? I dunno, but it sounds truly idiotic to me, I'm afraid to say!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Friday, November 19, 2010 10:38 AM

LILI

Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.


Yeah, I kind of have to agree on that being a bad idea. My partner and I have agreed to commitment, but if we ever have a wedding there will need to be a marriage license involved. We talked about getting a license in one of the states that offer them, but that sort of thing is in too much flux right now to make it worth it. We're actually pretty happy to just call ourselves a couple at this point, living together and being happy. We did get rings, mostly because we got tired of having to explain to strangers that we weren't interested. A ring says it so much more succinctly. Those didn't break the bank, either. Both of us have some heaping piles of student loan to worry about, we can't be loose with our money.


Facts are stubborn things.

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Friday, November 19, 2010 11:47 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Yep, she wants a big dress and a special day to be a princess. She enjoys watching those expensive wedding shows but claims she'll never be a 'bridezilla' or go super expensive. I'd rather get things done at a courthouse, then throw one hell of a party for everyone! Booze, dancing, maybe HALO games in a big projector, it'd be great, and less expensive. But I don't think I get to choose those kind of things, I just get to be there. Maybe I can ensure that there is cheesecake though, that would be nice.

She wants babies too, but she doesn't want to stay at home. When she finishes grad school, if she can find a job in her specialty, she'll be making easily at least half again what I'd be able to pull in with a good teaching job. Much as I'd like to be the big manly breadwinner, I'm totally okay with her dwarfing my income ('specially considering how small mine would be) if we did live together and/or get married. Still, I want to at least convince myself I could support us both if needed.


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Friday, November 19, 2010 1:50 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Niki, I sometimes think the point is not 'married' or 'not married' but what sort of committment you both have and I think people need to be more thoughtful of that when they enter into relationships that involve, most importantly, having kids together and importantly, but less so, merging or sharing property, because the fall out of ending such relationships acrimoniously is enormous, regardless of whether you have signed the contract or not.

What a lot of people don't realise is that laws around marriage (and in this country cohabitating) have come about as a way to sort through the messy stuff of people ending their relationships, not the other way around, which people kind of assume. we can all live together, cohabitate in pairs or groups of a variety of different sexes, and to me it doesn't make one iota of difference until the crunch time comes when relationships fail. That will continue to happen in ever increasing numbers regardless of that laws allow what, and people will continue to be unhappy as a result, and children's lives will be affected, sometimes ruined, and people will lose money and bitch and whine.


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Friday, November 19, 2010 4:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I still think the whole concept is completely idiotic.

Firstoff, I don't give a rats ass about the sanction and approval of government OR society, given my lack of respect for either one...

And secondly, it's a goddamn (pun intended) government endorsement of religion, no matter how you slice it, and that has NEVER sat well with me.

-F

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Friday, November 19, 2010 5:44 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I still think the whole concept is completely idiotic.

Firstoff, I don't give a rats ass about the sanction and approval of government OR society, given my lack of respect for either one...

And secondly, it's a goddamn (pun intended) government endorsement of religion, no matter how you slice it, and that has NEVER sat well with me.

-F



Not sure I agree with that, from personal experience. Madame and I are pretty much as non-religious as folk can be. When I asked her to marry me, she said she'd be just as happy to live with me without the legalities. We finally decided that we wanted to go ahead with the marriage and ceremony because we wanted to celebrate with our friends and family, and wanted to solemnize the commitment we made to each other. Also, we did it to please my wonderful cousin Sara - my mother's sister-in-spirit - who wanted us to get married in her home. We've never had one regret.

Also have to note that ease of buying property and cars together, getting insurance, being able to both be responsible for my mom's health care when Alzheimer's appeared, etc. didn't suck.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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