Oh, how I wish they would! Asked last night worst places for his "book tour", one pundit said Italy and Spain, in that they take human rights very serio..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Bush could be arrested in Great Britain

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:42
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Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, how I wish they would! Asked last night worst places for his "book tour", one pundit said Italy and Spain, in that they take human rights very seriously there and it would be easy to get a judge to sign a warrant. He suggested instead "Korea, Tehran" and some others.

Also said that a country has the responsibility of arresting war criminals, and if that country "harbors" them, any other country has the right to arrest them. That "Pol Pot thought otherwise, but..."
Quote:

George Bush could face arrest abroad after his frank admissions on waterboarding, a leading human rights lawyers has claimed.

Geoffrey Robertson said the former President was now at risk of being detained having sanctioned the controversial interrogation technique.

‘Ignorance of the law is no defence,’ he said. ‘There are countries where proceedings might be instituted against him.’

Security chiefs have already denounced his defence of so-called 'waterboarding' and disputed his claim that information obtained through it had thwarted Al Qaeda plots to blow up Canary Wharf and Heathrow airport.
Mr Bush launched his memoirs with the admission that he gave the CIA the green light to waterboard Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, with the words: ‘Damn right.’

He added that a team of U.S. lawyers had said the practice was not illegal.

‘Their interrogations helped break up plots to attack American military and diplomatic facilities abroad, Heathrow airport and Canary Wharf in London, and multiple targets in the United States,’ Mr Bush said. ‘Using those techniques saved lives.’

Tony Blair sent tanks to Heathrow in February 2003 after intelligence warnings that terrorists were plotting to bring down aircraft with rocket propelled grenades.

And in 2004 the Daily Mail revealed claims that an air attack on three towers at Canary Wharf in London was planned. It is these two incidents Mr Bush is thought to be referring to.

But his claims that waterboarding saved the day were dismissed by a series of senior officials familiar with counter-terrorism activities at the time.

Mr Bush insists that he knew an interrogation programme ‘this sensitive and controversial would one day become public’ and that ‘when it did, we would open ourselves up to criticism that America had compromised our moral values’.

Mr Bush has defended its use, saying: ‘Three people were waterboarded and I believe that decision saved lives.’ He even claims that Zubayda urged the Americans to use it on his captured ‘brothers’.

Zubaydah later told interrogators that ‘his understanding of Islam was that he had to resist interrogation only up to a certain point’.

Mr Bush adds: ‘Waterboarding was the technique that allowed him to reach that threshold, fulfill his religious duty, and then co-operate. “You must do this for all the brothers”, he said.’

Although they conceded that some U.S. intelligence had been important in the fight aganst terror they believed that the President was exaggerating.

Kim Howells, who was chairman of the Commons intelligence and security committee, said: ‘I doubt torture actually produced information which was instrumental in preventing those plots coming to fruition. I’m not convinced of that.’

Lord MacDonald, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, said: ‘These stories about waterboarding thwarting attacks on Canary Wharf and Heathrow – I’ve never seen anything to substantiate these claims. These claims are to be treated with a great deal of scepticism.’

However, security sources conceded that information passed by the Americans in the years after 9/11 did help prevent some Al Qaeda attacks in the UK.

A Downing Street spokesman said: ‘We stand firmly against torture and the cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment. We don’t condone it or ask others to do it on our behalf.’

http://news1.ghananation.com/international/46311-the-waterboarding-bac
klash-bush-could-face-arrest-for-sanctioning-torture.html


I'm ashamed our country has done nother about Bush and his accomplices; recognizing the difficulties it that would ensue, I still wish they WOULD! Along with all the other of our laws they broke...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


How about going after President Obama for continuing and increasing the illegal and deadly drone attacks in Pakistan, which have claimed many more victims of extra-judicial execution - as well as innocent lives via collateral damage - than the total number of folks waterboarded (who all survived)?

Quote:

UN rights investigator warns US drone attacks may violate international law
Amelia Mathias at 9:02 AM ET

UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions Philip Alston said Tuesday that the use of unmanned warplanes by the US to carry out attacks in Pakistan and Afghanistan may be illegal. Alston criticized the US policy in a report to the UN General Assembly's human rights committee and then elaborated at a press conference:

"My concern is that these drones, these predators, are being operated in a framework which may well violate international humanitarian law and international human rights law. The onus is really on the government of the United States to reveal more about the ways in which it makes sure that arbitrary executions, extrajudicial executions, are not in fact being carried out through the use of these weapons. The response of the US is simply untenable, and that is that the Human Rights Council and the General Assembly by definition have no role in relation to killings that take place in relations to an armed conflict. that would remove the great majority of issues that come before these bodies right now."



http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2009/10/un-rights-investigator-w
arns-us-drone.php


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hee, hee, hee; I JUST put up a story about Pakistan denying the US' desire to widen their use of drone attacks...

In my opinion, that's not the equivalent of deliberately breaking US and international law regarding torture, but point well taken that I wish they'd STOP!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Saturday, November 20, 2010 9:59 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Hee, hee, hee; I JUST put up a story about Pakistan denying the US' desire to widen their use of drone attacks...

In my opinion, that's not the equivalent of deliberately breaking US and international law regarding torture, but point well taken that I wish they'd STOP!



So you consider the extrajudicial executions of scores of people, and the collateral damage deaths of scores more who were innocent of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time, to be less serious than the waterboarding of three people, all of whom survived it?

Could the party affiliations of the Presidents in office during these actions have anything to do with this interesting outlook?



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, November 20, 2010 10:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I'm sure if Bush was still in office, some people would be calling for impeachment, war crimes trials, and rope.

Obama has found many ways to disappoint me, but those disappointments have been trivial compared to my disappointment at people who once railed ceaselessly against the wars, and now scarcely manage an occasional whimper.

It suggests that much of the opposition was not against the war. It was against the man.

With a new man in office, the anti-war protests, propaganda, and political outrage has largely vaporized. It has become a kind of lukewarm discontent, without the power to imprint a chad.

I sometimes tell myself that the sudden drop-off of vociferous discontent is because the new man is perceived to be not-as-bad as his predecessor. However, I can't completely convince myself of that. Obama has a very different demeanor than Bush, but the actual conduct of our nation is only slightly different under his hand.

We should all be holding his feet to the fire a lot more than we are.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:14 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Hee, hee, hee; I JUST put up a story about Pakistan denying the US' desire to widen their use of drone attacks...

In my opinion, that's not the equivalent of deliberately breaking US and international law regarding torture, but point well taken that I wish they'd STOP!



So you consider the extrajudicial executions of scores of people, and the collateral damage deaths of scores more who were innocent of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time, to be less serious than the waterboarding of three people, all of whom survived it?

Could the party affiliations of the Presidents in office during these actions have anything to do with this interesting outlook?

"Keep the Shiny side up"



It would certainly explain why you never mentioned taking such actions while Bush was in office. I don't recall you being against Predator strikes at the time, either. Most on the right simply dismiss such deaths as "collateral damage" and "the cost of war".

You're defending Bush by resorting to "... but OBAMA!"; I thought you disliked it when others used such tactics. :shrug:

This Space For Rent!

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I'm sure if Bush was still in office, some people would be calling for impeachment, war crimes trials, and rope.

Obama has found many ways to disappoint me, but those disappointments have been trivial compared to my disappointment at people who once railed ceaselessly against the wars, and now scarcely manage an occasional whimper.

It suggests that much of the opposition was not against the war. It was against the man.

With a new man in office, the anti-war protests, propaganda, and political outrage has largely vaporized. It has become a kind of lukewarm discontent, without the power to imprint a chad.

I sometimes tell myself that the sudden drop-off of vociferous discontent is because the new man is perceived to be not-as-bad as his predecessor. However, I can't completely convince myself of that. Obama has a very different demeanor than Bush, but the actual conduct of our nation is only slightly different under his hand.

We should all be holding his feet to the fire a lot more than we are.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.




On that, sir, we are agreed.

And yes, before I get taken to task for taking Geezer to task, I would like to see war crimes investigations in THE ENTIRE CONDUCT, AUTHORIZATION, AND EXECUTION OF *BOTH* WARS we're currently embroiled in.

That means not simply "going after" Bush and/or Obama, but getting to the HOW and WHY of how we got into these quagmires in the first place, AND how we're behaving with regards to these nations and their people currently.

If torture is a war crime when done to Americans, it's a war crime when done to ANYONE. If extralegal assassination is a crime, it's a crime, period.



This Space For Rent!

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:53 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Obama has found many ways to disappoint me, but those disappointments have been trivial compared to my disappointment at people who once railed ceaselessly against the wars, and now scarcely manage an occasional whimper.

...Obama has a very different demeanor than Bush, but the actual conduct of our nation is only slightly different under his hand.

We should all be holding his feet to the fire a lot more than we are.

Absolutely.

In some ways, the Bush-era abuses has gotten worse. This was discussed back when it happened, but it is worth a reminder now.

1. Sovereign immunity (4/09): The government can spy on you as much they want, as long as they don't tell the public what they got on you.

2. Secrecy law (5/09): If the government did anything illegal between 9/11/01 and 1/22/09, they don't have to tell you, or show anyone the pictures they took.

3. Indefinite preventative detentions (5/09): If the government thinks you're dangerous, they can lock you up. Without a trial. Forever.

To his credit, I suppose, the allowance of pleading guilty to capital crimes in 9/11 cases was so controversial they decided not to pursue it.

Here is a very good article by John Cusack no less--old but still good.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-cusack/a-war-on-terror-by-any-ot_b_
204887.html




--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:00 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I would certainly explain why you never mentioned taking such actions while Bush was in office.



Okay. Go ahead and explain.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:03 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

So you consider the extrajudicial executions of scores of people

If it's war, and the enemy is not in custody but in the field, can you call it execution? It's simplistic at best.

Quote:

and the collateral damage deaths

If we were comparing collateral death scores, Bush's would be much higher.

Quote:

Could the party affiliations of the Presidents in office during these actions have anything to do with this interesting outlook?


Perhaps inevitably. But it's possible to criticise one or more of the invasions, and be angry at the person who instigated them, but not demand immediate and total withdrawal and abandonment of the two countries. Continuing the occupation, or failing to withdraw immediately, even ramping up the war in some ways; is not equivalent to going in in the first place.

If you look at muslim people around the world - a group that is more inclined to demonise America as a whole, rather than just the Republican party - you will find that they are also much more hateful towards Bush than Obama.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:04 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I would certainly explain why you never mentioned taking such actions while Bush was in office.



Okay. Go ahead and explain.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




Don't pick on the spelling fairy. Anyone could forget a letter

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 8:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

So you consider the extrajudicial executions of scores of people, and the collateral damage deaths of scores more who were innocent of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time, to be less serious than the waterboarding of three people, all of whom survived it?

Could the party affiliations of the Presidents in office during these actions have anything to do with this interesting outlook/

You could say precisely the same things about Bush as you did Obama in that first paragraph, so I don't get your point.

Any President at war can be accused of the "innocent people" accusation; it's war, so it always happens. How is that different than any other war?

Bush both started those wars AND used them as the excuse to erode our civil rights more than any President in my lifetime at least, and not only played fast and loose with our laws and international laws on torture, but now BRAGS about it in his book. Usually people who do such things as torturing are quiet about it, not (as Bush no doubt is) convinced they can do them and get away with it scott free. It's an offense to everything America stands for.

As to protests, you might take into consideration that

1. Obama has put a timetable of withdrawal on both wars--that doesn't make continuing them right, but people might have been assuaged by his promise to get out, might believe he WOULD do so, as opposed to believing Bush (remembering Iraq wouldn't ratify keeping us there until OBAMA said we'd pull out), and are waiting to see.

2. If he doesn't pull out (which I have my doubts about), you might well see more protests.

3. There HAVE been and are continued protests of the wars:
Quote:

On March 20, 2010, thousands marched by the White House in Washington, DC, to protest the U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The event was organized by A.N.S.W.E.R. and other groups. The scheduling of the event ties it to the seventh anniversary of the start of the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Participants prepared model coffins draped in various flags to symbolize fatalities of the wars.

Wikipedia
Quote:

Minnesota peace activists focused their attention on U.S. Senator Al Franken during a Thursday, April 8 protest urging Franken to vote against a supplemental funding bill for the war in Afghanistan.
http://tc.indymedia.org/2010/apr/thursday-protest-no-new-funding-war-a
fghanistan
Quote:

April 15, 2010: Des Moines, IA Peace Activist Faces Trespassing Charge for Antiwar Protest at Offices of Sen. Harkin

Frankie Hughes refused to leave Senator Tom Harkin’s office during a protest of the war funding in the current appropriations bill.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/15/war_protest
Quote:

May 18, 2010: Multiple peace organizations held an anti-war protest at Representative McCollum’s office in St. Paul, MN to protest spending and escalation in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. United States Representative Betty McCollum is planning on voting for the $33 billion supplemental funding bill for the U.S. war in Afghanistan. Participants included: Anti-War Committee, Merriam Park Neighbors for Peace, Twin Cities Peace Campaign, Women Against Military Madness
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fibonacciblue/4620505556/
Quote:

November 15, 2010--Anti-war protesters gathered Monday on the Southern Methodist University campus, a day before the groundbreaking for the George W. Bush Presidential Center.

The Dallas Morning News reports that the protesters Monday used 175 pairs of worn Army boots to represent some of the troops killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

http://www.kwtx.com/statenews/headlines/Anti-War_Protest_Held_On_SMU_C
ampus_Ahead_Of_Bush_Groundbreaking_108262699.html?storySection=story


Just a few examples; yes, they're not as frequent nor as big (except for the one in March of last year) as they were under Bush, but I attribute that to the above reasons, plus the fact that the wars have gone on for so long, a lot of people have given up in frustration, so it's harder to gather a huge crowd. But we're still out there, and if Obama doesn't hold to his promises, I'll wager you'll see a lot more start up.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Hell, arrest em both - problem with that is, one is a sitting prez, which'd amount to an act of war, and one isn't.

So by all means throw Shrub in the slammer, waterboard his ass too, make *him* "confess" to the Bali bombing(1), just for kicks, I don't much care.

But Obama is ours to impeach and dismiss BEFORE anyone else gets their hands on him, or till he is no longer in office.

S'why I have issues with even the idea of attacking the POTUS for *ANY* reason, when a man assumes the office, he BECOMES the office, no matter the character of the man - and is thus a symbol of all that is america and you just don't spit on that, it's where I draw the line.

You impeach em FIRST, then remove em, THEN do as you will, but not until.

They're both every bit as guilty in my eyes, however.

-Frem
(1) - This is an in-joke amongst our merry torturers, since it was a Balinese officer who came forward and confessed, but they throw it in as proof they can get anyone to confess to anything, you see... we've had damn near every "suspect" waterboarded "confess" to it, too - check and see.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:02 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
You could say precisely the same things about Bush as you did Obama in that first paragraph, so I don't get your point.



The point is you seem to want to give Obama a pass for the same sort of internationally condemned actions for which you want to hang Bush.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:42 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I do not give him a pass. See what Frem said: I agree with that. But nobody impeached Bush, he's no longer Prez, so he's fair game. And nothing will be done about it, at least in the States. Ergo, when Obama is no longer Prez, he's just as fair game. As long as they do BOTH, and as long as Obama doesn't clean up what Bush started...as in Patriot Act, Terrorism, and a whole bunch of other shit. Which he won't.

There are others, co-conspirators of Bush whom I believe should be prosecuted as well. None of them ever will be.

So nothing will come of any of it. But I'd nonetheless LOVE to see Bush hauled away in handcuffs in some other country, because WE didn't clean up our own shit.

Aside from which, if Bush WERE arrested somewhere along the line, Obama might be scared enough TO undo the worst things which break the law. Although as far a I know, only torture broke international law...which Obama has supposedly done away with. Is there anything else Obama could be held for? Whether we agree with innocents killed in a WAR, etc., they don't break international law.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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