Unconscionable. Their "darling" Reagan, after being a war hawk for a long time, finally realized nuclear proliferation was wrong and, I believe (?) STAR..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Tea Party and GOP Block U.S.-Russia Nuke Treaty

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 09:22
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 952
PAGE 1 of 1

Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Unconscionable. Their "darling" Reagan, after being a war hawk for a long time, finally realized nuclear proliferation was wrong and, I believe (?) STARTED negotiations with Russia to destroy nukes. NOW they want to drop START?? I think it would be disasterous
Quote:

WASHINGTON, DC – With Tea Party darlings such as Rand Paul among the incoming Republican Senators, many observers are wondering how the growing GOP Senate caucus will respond to the pending nuclear disarmament treaty between the U.S. and Russia. New START (Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty), which President Barack Obama and Russian President Dmitri Medvedev signed in April, would reduce the number of, restrict the deployment of, and modernize the protection of nuclear warheads possessed by both nations. But, months later, the Senate has still not ratified the treaty, and it's unclear whether that will happen in either the lame duck session or once the new Senators take their seats in early 2011. Here's what foreign policy wonks, as well as conservative pundits on both sides of the argument, have to say.

Tea Party Likely to Oppose" Foreign Policy's Josh Rogin writes, "If the Senate vote on the New START nuclear reduction treaty with Russia is postponed until next year, the new Tea Party-affiliated senators are likely to vote no." Kentucky Senator-elect Rand Paul is among them. "Yes votes are equally unlikely from other Tea Party-affiliated freshman senators, such as Florida Republican Senator-elect Marco Rubio. ... But the Tea Party senators will only get to weigh in on New START if the administration's plan to vote on the treaty during this year's lame duck session of Congress falls apart."

Republican Leaders Urge 'Delay': Politico's Laura Rozen reports, "a Nov. 5 memo from the Republican Policy Committee to Senate GOP staffers asserts that 'it’s not time for the Senate to vote' on the U.S.-Russian strategic arms control treaty. ... Some observers interpreted the memo as more about tactical positioning than signaling an absolute GOP intention to block a Senate ratification vote by the end of the year. 'I read it as a tactical move to extract more concessions,' from the administration, the Center for American Progress’ Russia expert Samuel Charap told POLITICO."

GOP Should Pass START: The Washington Post's Robert Kagan, whose work with David Petraeus formed the basis of the much-heralded "surge" in Iraq, urges passage. "I fear Republicans are missing the bigger strategic picture. New START, whatever its flaws, is not a threat to U.S. security. The three previous arms-control treaties, all negotiated by Republican presidents, cut deployed nuclear weapons from near 12,000 to around 2,000. New START reduces the totals to 1,550. Passing it will neither produce a nuclear-free utopia nor disarm the United States. But blocking the treaty will produce three unfortunate results: It will strengthen Vladimir Putin, let the Obama administration off the hook when Russia misbehaves and set up Republicans as the fall guy if and when U.S.-Russian relations go south."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/atlantic/20101111/cm_atlantic/willteapartyandg
opblockusrussianuketreaty5750


It sickens me that they've taken this stance, and that START may die because of it!



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:43 AM

WHOZIT


I'm not worried about the U.S or Russia having nukes, I'm worried about the middle east or YOU having them. Come to think of it, Barry with nukes may be a bad thing, are the "RED" states safe?

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Saturday, November 20, 2010 9:06 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The three previous arms-control treaties, all negotiated by Republican presidents, cut deployed nuclear weapons from near 12,000 to around 2,000. New START reduces the totals to 1,550.

Leave us with only 1,550 nuclear bombs?

Cause, you know, what happens if we need to drop a nuclear bomb 1,551 times? Have they thought of that? What if we need that extra one, and it's not there?

Why does Obama hate freedom? Why does he hate America?




Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Saturday, November 20, 2010 10:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


The START Treaty was signed on April 8, 2010 in Prague by Presidents Obama and Medvedev.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_START

So a better question might be: Why has the Democratic Congress been sitting on ratifying it for seven-plus months? It took until Sept. 16th (five months) for the Foreign Relations Committee to approve it. It had strong bi-partisan support in committee. Why the holdup?

http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2010/09/147271.htm




"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, November 20, 2010 10:33 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I can think of nothing in the Tea Party platform that would disagree with the mutual reduction of nuclear arms. Such a move would save money. It's like being paid to live in a safer world.

So... what is the source of disagreement? Is there another provision of the same treaty that they find unsavory? I can't believe they are just opposing it arbitrarily.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer, I don't suppose it's possible that the Dems had so many other NEW things they were trying to "spend their capital" on that they left this until now, possibly think it was someththing the Repubs/GOP would have no trouble passing?

As to why the Tea Party resists ratifying it, DT

a) Today's Tea PartieS don't necessarily go by any ONE platform, didn't you tell us how diverse a group they were?

b) The GOP's stated intent,as is obvious by all their actions this past two years, is to stymie Obama on everything. Else why have they consistently been AGAINST things they originally proposed, co-sponsored or were FOR, the minute Obama took office?

I found this:
Quote:

A lobbying group affiliated with the Tea Party has joined the effort to derail President Obama's new arms-control agreement with Russia, launching a grassroots campaign by spreading misleading information about the pact to the general public.

Former governor Mitt Romney kicked off the conservative nationwide campaign to convince ordinary Americans to actively oppose the new nuclear reductions treaty with Russia. He is even trying to raise money off of it. The Heritage Foundation has a new grassroots lobbying arm that has made opposition to New START one of its core activities. Other right-leaning issues organizations are now following suit.

The latest salvo is being launched by a Tea Party-affiliated group called Liberty Central, a 501c4 lobbying organization that has started a letter-writing campaign entitled, "TAKE ACTION: Tell Your Senators to Oppose START Treaty."

1.Our existing missile defense system, put in place by the Bush Administration, actually does not have the technology to stop a Russian missile attack.

2.The Treaty drastically reduces our offensive nuclear capabilities without advancing our defensive capabilities - specifically through the development of a meaningful missile defense program.

3.According to the Russians themselves, the section of the treaty that actually allows either the U.S. or Russia to withdraw from the treaty is included specifically so that Russia can withdraw if it believes that it is being "threatened" by developments in U.S. missile defense programs.
4.As part of the negotiating process, President Obama gave up our missile defense presence in the Czech Republic and Poland, but it is not clear that the Russians gave up anything of similar value. If we concede something, they must as well.

5.In 2009, General James Cartwright testified that, at a bare minimum, the United States needs at least 860 weapons launchers. However, this new Treaty limits our capabilities to only deploying 700. Why did we agree to have 160 less than necessary?

6.In addition to reducing the number of weapons in our arsenal, this Treaty also limits the types of circumstances in which the United States is allowed to launch our weapons!

The criticisms omit several relevant facts and get others wrong. For example, although the existing U.S. missile-defense system has its origins under the Reagan administration, it was never intended to stop a Russian missile attack. In any case, New START was never aimed at advancing defensive capabilities, which fall outside the scope of the treaty.

Moreover, there is no section that allows each country to withdraw; rather such language is in the preamble, which does not include the word "threatened."

Nor did President Obama did not give up the U.S. missile-defense presence in Poland and the Czech Republic as "part of the negotiating process"; that decision was made independently of the START talks and was aimed at strengthening the system's ability to thwart the short- and medium-range missile threat from Iran.

The treaty also does not limit the type of circumstances in which the U.S. is allowed to launch weapons. Here, Field might be referring to the 2010 Nuclear Posture Review, which reduced the scenarios under which the United States would launch a nuclear strike.

None of that prevented Liberty Central from including these assertions in its form letter, which members can send to senators with one click of the mouse.

"The START Treaty fails to ensure the ability of the US to maintain a reliable nuclear deterrent going forward, and severely limits our missile defense systems. I urge you to protect American security by opposing this treaty," the letter states.

"This group is trying to come up with any argument they can and so they came up with several that aren't even relevant to the treaty," said John Isaacs, executive director of the Council for a Livable World. "It's even more troubling when we see these same arguments repeated by some GOP senators."

I hope that answers your question. I'm going to look for more information, but that covers the reasons that Tea Party group gives, anyway.

You keep thinking in terms of one Tea Party, and the original Tea Party, which I don't think is relevant to today's movement as much as it once was. IMHO.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:35 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I can think of nothing in the Tea Party platform that would disagree with the mutual reduction of nuclear arms. Such a move would save money. It's like being paid to live in a safer world.

So... what is the source of disagreement? Is there another provision of the same treaty that they find unsavory? I can't believe they are just opposing it arbitrarily.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.





I don't know Anthony. From my take most tea party types are for a strong national defense. Wanting to cut the military and wanting to close a boat load of bases around the world is a different animal. I don't see a conflict. The money has already been spent.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:52 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

It costs a lot of money to maintain these nukes. They have to be constantly checked and tested, and stored in expensive facilities.

If all the other nuke nations are prepared to reduce their stocks and maintain parity, we should be happy with that.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 11:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Geezer, I don't suppose it's possible that the Dems had so many other NEW things they were trying to "spend their capital" on that they left this until now, possibly think it was someththing the Repubs/GOP would have no trouble passing?



The article you cite about some Tea Party folk opposing START was dated July 23, 2010, so it would seem pretty apparent that if the Dems had that much of a heads-up that there might be doubts about passing it after the mid-term elections, they should have gotten on the ball and ratified it sooner.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:22 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

It costs a lot of money to maintain these nukes. They have to be constantly checked and tested, and stored in expensive facilities.

If all the other nuke nations are prepared to reduce their stocks and maintain parity, we should be happy with that.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.




Again, I don't think most tea party types want to maintain parity or equality with the world when it comes to defense, most Americans want to be the world power we are. The money paid to maintain these nukes is a fraction of discarding them. The bases that house them have to have the same # of troops there be it 10 nukes or 100. And our national security is stronger keeping them.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:07 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

How do they enhance our defense? Is there really a concern amongst Tea Partiers that we can not extinguish a sufficient number of cities with only 1500 nuclear weapons? I'd be surprised to see a respected founding Tea Partier like Ron Paul make such a claim.

The disposal fees are set. They will eventually have to be paid for each nuke regardless, and paying those costs immediately indicates savings in the long run.

Also, these nukes are constantly tested and rehabilitated (they tend to be rather aged)and that costs money, so a decommissioned nuke saves money every year it's in the waste bin.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:25 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer, I would venture that in July, the dems didn’t think enough people would take the Tea Party seriously enough to elect many of them, nor do I think they believed the Republicans would be stupid enough to want to block START, despite their interagency in every other respect. I think most people assumed it would be ratified, and like I said, I think he dems were pretty busy dealing with other new things that nobody else had dealt with up until that time. They couldn’t know if they’d have majorities after the midterms, so it would seem to me more logical to deal with the things they had any HOPE of accomplishing, given this was an issue they may well have assumed wouldn’t be a problem.

Anthony, one mistake. You cited Ron Paul, but he doesn’t represent TODAY’s Tea Party, in my opinion. Ergo, how he feels about START would have to be for him to say; how a portion of the Tea Party (I can’t say how much or how little) feels is elucidated by the cite I put up. I happen to think there’s a BIG difference between them.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:33 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

How do they enhance our defense? Is there really a concern amongst Tea Partiers that we can not extinguish a sufficient number of cities with only 1500 nuclear weapons? I'd be surprised to see a respected founding Tea Partier like Ron Paul make such a claim.

The disposal fees are set. They will eventually have to be paid for each nuke regardless, and paying those costs immediately indicates savings in the long run.

Also, these nukes are constantly tested and rehabilitated (they tend to be rather aged)and that costs money, so a decommissioned nuke saves money every year it's in the waste bin.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.



No, I see what you are getting at. I don't think it really matters if we have 1500 or 3000 it is a deterant!.. unless china or north korea have 10,000. And I don't trust them to abide by any treaty, so let us save money and lower hostilities around the world by bringing our troops home, but let us keep our nukes for now...after all we are hated and in danger. Obama has not helped.

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Monday, November 22, 2010 12:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Barry needs to learn how to play ball in D.C.

He can have his precious treaty, if he wants, but he'll have to give up something in return.

Reagan knew that, of course, but not Barry. He's too inexperienced to know what the frak he's doing. And too stubborn.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, November 22, 2010 4:24 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I can't think of much that the president has done that hasn't been accompanied by some sort of concession.

Concession seems to be the name of his game, dating back to when he was not yet president.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Monday, November 22, 2010 5:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Yanno, me, I am all for figuring out how to use that material to generate power - then using the decommissioned warheads to generate electricity and reduce our petroleum dependance while working towards long term renewable solutions...

And there's also that such would reduce the rest of the worlds hostility to us for being dicks in our efforts to secure petroleum, which'd do WONDERS for our national security, since fucking around in and with other peoples countries is the primary threat to it, a lil thing called backlash, yanno ?

As for deterrent, I call bullshit, that arsenal hasn't deterred a goddamn thing, and Mike Rivero has written one of the best pieces ever done on that particular topic.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/trinitite.html
Quote:

If Iran needs to be invaded, and occupied, to prevent them from ever developing and possibly using a nuclear weapon against the mainland United States, then our parents and grandparents wasted untold trillions in producing nuclear weapons and submarines to defend against just such a threat.

And we want our money back.


Damn right, and I want that 80.1 Billion dollars back too, which is the budget of the alphabet goons, who for all that money make us LESS safe by actively CREATING bullshit plots as an excuse for their existance - I ain't never, EVER forgetting who gave Ramzi Youssef that bomb in 1993 and let him set it off, cause it wasn't no damn terrorist, it was our own so-called protectors.

I want my fucking money back.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:17 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:
And I don't trust them to abide by any treaty, so let us save money and lower hostilities around the world by bringing our troops home, but let us keep our nukes for now...after all we are hated and in danger.

If this were the forced choice, troops home or arms reduction, I would pick troops home. I can concede that.

But I don't see that as the forced choice presented anywhere.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer, just FYI: I learned that the treaty was already brought up twice for ratification since being signed, and stymied both times by the Republicans. This is apparently the third try, so saying they dragged their feet on it was wrong. I didn't know i had been an ongoing issue, either.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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