For DT by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

For DT

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 09:46
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Monday, November 22, 2010 8:21 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

This is going to be long. You are under no impetus to read it all, but you might find some of it of value. You have recently talked about being "kicked around" and "abused", so I'm addressing that.

I'm just getting getting up; and I read and re-read some of your posts. What you don't seem to understand is that you trigger people into frustration, anger, defensiveness, etc. because the WAY you write is mostly in lecture form, as in "I know the answers, now, here they are:" Maybe if you phrased things differently, people would be more amenable to hearing what you MEAN, not just what you say.

I accept that you're neither in love with right or left and will attempt to approach you as if that were true, until you prove otherwise, if you do. Right now, let's say I think you have a "bias against" the left--perhaps you were right that you were the same way about the right during the last administration, I have no way of knowing. My conclusions are natural, given that all I see now is you going after the left, and the negative generalizations you make about the left.

It’s surprising that, for all you lectures (and yes, I mean “lecture”—reread your posts, that’s exactly how they come across) on communicating and how you say you’ve communicated with people others wouldn’t think could be reached, you’re not taking your own advice even HERE. You use buzz words, judgments, generalizations, negative catch phrases, which are bound to turn people against you.

To write “Loyal libs worship Obama. Call it charisma, call it a schoolyard crush...”, as just one tiny example, is a way to get people to engage with you?? Don’t you see how you do precisely what you lecture me and others NOT to do? You said “This is an even better point to stop reading...” Don’t you see that writing things like the above is exactly the same? I expressed frustration; you expressed judgment...in that way mine is actually less offensive. But it offended you enough to stop reading; how do you think the things you say about liberals encourages others to KEEP reading?

Now, I’m not sure whether you’re actually aware you’re doing these things and are utilizing a double standard, chastising us despite realizing you do precisely what you lecture us NOT to do; if you’re not aware of it; or (my paranoia about honesty on this forum having been deeply eroded) you are actually doing it on purpose to trigger people. But you seem totally blind to what you’re doing, and how it goes against all the “advice” you’re giving on how to communicate.

As to

Quote:
For christ's sake I'm trying to help you guys out.... I'm saying act damn it. Stop just whining about what you don't like and trying to blame it on the other guy.

That seems to be based on the principle that we can or are willing to do something to change the situation beyond what we do as citizens and voters. I’m 62, on disability, of limited financial means, and am not going to go out at this point in my life to try and start a “party”. I come here for discussion, on myriad topics, socialization and for the occasional interesting debate. That doesn’t nullify my right to speak up on what I see going on politically, just because I’m not willing or able to start my own party. I wish you all kinds of luck, especially if you are able in any way to moderate today’s Tea Party. I don’t think you can, but I’ll applaud you if you do make any impact. That doesn’t mean my thoughts or beliefs are irrelevant because I’m NOT doing what you are.

You consistently make flat statements as FACT which are in reality your opinions, judgments and conclusions. I’ve said this before, as have others, but apparently it means nothing to you. In your lectures on how to communicate, you went on about finding middle ground, respecting others might have a valid point, etc. Yet you don't do that here.

Quote:
If it's not just like me, democrat or die" then it must be a right win nut job.

and

Quote:
It seems that if someone isn't a carbon copy, they must be a right wing nut job

That is completely untrue. I, for one, have never called you a nut job, and my attitude is NEVER “if it’s not just like me, democrat or die”, I think I’ve shown that here enough times that making a judgment like that is just plain unfair.

I don’t know, it’s very frustrating. You do exactly the things you lecture us not to do in order to communicate; you demonize the left quite freely with generalizations and flat statements like, on Ron Paul,

Quote:
Now apparently he sucks balls, because the lefties think its funny to say so.

I’ve lauded Ron Paul numerous times, and said that if I’d known more about him at the time, I might have paid more attention to him. It’s not Ron Paul anyone’s been dissing, for the most part, it’s what the Tea Party has turned into NOW. They’re not Ron Paul’s Tea Party, they’ve even turned against him and some of his ideas, but you seem wedded to the belief that today’s Tea Party can be molded into yesterday’s Tea Party, and that today’s is made up of the same people yesterday’s was. Something about the liberals of the ‘60s you or someone else mentioned; I think it holds true for a lot of the original Tea Partiers versus those of today. That you can make over-the-top statements like the above is what frustrates people trying to communicate with you.

This idea that LIBERALS are ruled by fear, I don’t know where you get it.

Quote:
Fear that someone who disagrees with you on meaningless wedge issues will come to power.

That’s the kind of wild claim I would expect from Wulf; I’ve explained I’m not afraid; I’ve also said that whatever happens now, the pendulum always swings and I take the long view at times like these (as I did during the Bush Administration, when I could get past my shock and dismay). I’ve explained several times the fallacies in statements like the above, but, like some of our trolls, you go right on stating them as fact. Why? And how does that further communication?

Quote:
I feel like I've explained this abundantly simply concept a dozen times or so.

What you don’t see is that this is how many of US feel; we’ve refuted your blanket claims about us, but you go on making them. Of COURSE people get frustrated; we try to actually communicate with you, because you are more reasonable than the trolls. But your thinking parallels theirs all too often in that it is dogmatic and unyielding, so frustration sets in and eventually it becomes anger.

I don't believe abortion is only a wedge issue. To say that I’m expressing the fear you claim I have because I stated that a lot of elected officials would stop abortions if they could—I guess you can’t see how wrong that is. Elected officials, and candidates, have stated STRAIGHT OUT that they’d do away with legal abortion if they could; and state and local officials HAVE passed laws to try to limit the availability and legality of abortion in many, many ways. I’m not going to take the time to look them up, this is taking more time than I’m willing to spend on this as it is. But it’s true; can you honestly deny that? How can it be fear, if it’s actually happening?

I’ve come to the conclusion that I have to take your statements that you communicated with extremists with a grain of salt. The fact that you do pretty much all the things you lecture us not to do, and few of the things you advised us TO DO when trying to communicate effectively, makes me wonder just how un-self-aware you are, or what your motives are. I would say to you that if you actually want to communicate here, you should re-read your own lecture on how to do so and try to keep those points in mind when posting. To help, I’ll quote you:

Quote:
I had to admit that the person I was discussing with was a reasonable human being who had arrived to his position through logic, and that his opinions were ones which he held because he believed they were right.

That he could be reasoned with. If you just treated his positions as rational, and granted him any points he might have, he was much more willing to listen to your suggestions.

Yet in response to a question I asked at one point, you said “I studied the subject, that's all.” You do that a lot. What you are saying is that, because you studied something, your conclusions had to be right. That’s a form of dogmatism which precludes discussion; you came to some conclusions because of your studying a subject—-that does not make those conclusions infallible. I questioned the documentation on a point you made, and you came back with

Quote:
Allow me to appreciate the absurdity of the situation. I try to pin evil on international corporations, and you insist on pinning it on socialist big government. I think I woke up in bizarro world.

That was a judgment on what I “insisted” on doing, which I hadn’t done and which was an incorrect judgment on what I was doing and what I think.

I would say to you that your statement “If they don't listen, you work on your diplomatic communication skills and try again” holds true for you as much as for anyone else. Most people here aren't extremists, but you aren't at all "diplomatic" in responding to them, yet you write in ways which PRECLUDE discussion.

You claimed that my response to the effect that I didn’t read the rest of your post served to “weaken the credibility of the response”. That’s illogical, in my opinion. I responded to specific points you made; to insist that someone had to read your entire lengthy post, or else their response to specific points wasn’t credible, is saying that anyone who responds to you MUST read entire posts, or any response isn’t credible. Given you write the longest posts of anyone, along with Frem and myself, means you demand we take the time to read them, or you discredit any response as being “weak”. Do you really believe that? Myself, if someone responds to part of what I wrote, specifically, that response is as valid in reflecting their opinions as if they read the entire post. If they missed something in the rest of the post which pertains to that, I'll repeat that specific point. I certainly don’t insist that they read my whole post or else they lose credibility.

Later you said

Quote:
I bothered to read yours. If you won't read my posts, than I have wasted my time trying to help you.

Again, you demand that I read the entire posts or else you have wasted your time, then you go on to tell me what I was doing, which isn’t what I was doing at all.

And why do you think we are looking to you for “help”? I maintain we are not; we are all equal insofar as any valid opinion we express, and I don’t think any of us come here for anyone else to “help” us, teach us or tell us what to think or how to behave. I’d really like to know why you think we are looking to you for help, I think it relates to some of the problems you have in communicating with others here and might help illuminate some of why people get frustrated with you and you feel picked on.

Quote:
.... wonder if Niki skipped my post entirely.... If Niki doesn't read my posts than my many strategic tips on how to elect democrats who agree with her rather than support ones who she doesn't like are completely lost on her, and I am wasting my time.

Once again you misinterpreted what I wrote. I said I didn’t read ALL of one post...partly because I have little interest in Nazis and you had gone onto a side discussion about them at length. But I read your posts about many subjects, and had read all of your length posts except that one, and responded to them. A blanket statement that I don’t read your posts is wrong. My opinions are as valid as yours, and at no time did I ask you to give me tips on how to do anything. As I said several times, I come here for discussion and socialization, I don’t come here to be told what to do.

I happen to agree that

Quote:
You take some basic facts and extrapolate to a level of nonsense, something that I have seen you do numerous times in other posts.

I’ve noticed it since quite some time ago, before you left and returned, and pointed it out, as have others. You didn’t “hear” a word of that, you just deflected it with

Quote:
The left is truly made of venom. Did you miss the part where I said my father's side of the family was exterminated in the holocaust? No of course not, the left can't offend. I keep forgetting. And yes, history is one of my subjects of study. I know a lot about the subject and try to be objective and debate.

I maintain you are the furthest thing from objective; your study convinces you that you have come to the only viable conclusion; there is no room for any conception that your conclusions might not be the ONLY valid conclusions. Yes, the remark you responded to was a snark, but the point is valid nonetheless: You post frequently as if only you are right, because you say you’ve studied something. But having studied something does NOT mean you are infallible. You post quite a lot as if that isn’t true, that only you can be right.

Maybe you communicate differently verbally than you do when you post, but I’m not the only one who has been triggered by your flat statements and your attitude that only you can be right. I don’t say you extrapolate to the level of nonsense; I merely say that sometimes other extrapolations which come to different conclusions can be valid, and it’s possible for you to be wrong. You responded by making flat, derogatory statements about the left, which are in their way as offensive as the question about your understanding the holocaust. The fact that you have relatives who survived the holocaust, which you keep telling us, gives your opinions no more validity than anyone else’s, yet your response is that the left is venomous and feel they “can’t offend”. That’s offensive and mean spirited, which can be excused to a degree because of the way the post you were responding to was worded. Nonetheless, YOU are the one preaching about effective communication; do you not see that you make it as impossible at times as anyone else?

You wrote

Quote:
Is it really important to anyone if I, say, vote republican or democratic?

Yet you made the point of telling us what party you'd voted for this past election, as if that validated your opinions. Additionally, why do you feel it’s important if you lecture us on how to improve one party or the other? Has anyone here indicated a willingness to go beyond what we already do, to start our own PARTY?

Quote:
Netiquette is not about control, it's about self control

Yet it seems frequently as if that’s precisely what you’re trying to do; to control us by advising us how we should be, what we should do, and what we should believe,and utilizing little self-control in many of your judgments.

Quote:
The same goes for "Everyone has to read this article to debate it" Sure, some articles are very informative, and could be the subject themselves, like the one on psychology recently. But others are just someone's opinion, usually on a current political topic.

You just contradicted yourself; your posts are your opinions, why are efforts to debate them invalid unless your entire post is read in detail?

Quote:
Maybe the content of what I'm asking everyone else to read can be summed up in a paragraph,

Like me, that holds true for you, as well. We’ve had posts about lengthy diatribes and how they don’t get read because of their length; all three of us could keep that in mind if we want people to read all our posts.

Quote:
It's not about another user. Everyone gets to play. If you can't deal with someone else, learn to ignore them.

I’m getting close to that point myself where you're concerned; trying to communicate with you, especially given you go against the very things you advise everyone else to do, is getting frustrating. Taking the time to respond to specific points IS wasting my time, if you invalidate what I write because I didn’t read your entire post. Trying to have a discussion with you triggers me because of your negative blanket statements about libs, your misinterpreting my words, and your seeming insistence that only your conclusions can be correct.

Quote:
recognize when you're defeating yourself

How I wish you would.[quote if you don't pay attention, you will lose influence

Well, I’m not here to “influence” anyone, and I repeatedly get the impression you don’t “pay attention” to what I write, especially insofar as you keep saying that “libs worship Obama” or that “libs are venomous”, the latter in response to one specific person’s remark, but extrapolated to all libs.

I’ve tried to communicate to you some of the reasons you end up feeling as if you’re being “abused”. I don’t see it that way. I see you frustrating people; I see them trying to communicate with you and you breaking virtually every piece of advice you have given others. I see that frustration turning into derision and anger. I understand why. That you take it as “abuse” when you regularly “abuse” others in the way you address them and in what comes across as a sense of superiority, as in not respecting what they write or their opinions, can only be expected to frustrate those trying tocommunicate with you. So there’s my lecture on better communication, in response to yours on same.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, November 22, 2010 8:58 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Niki,

Earlier today, before you posted this, DT messaged me privately, "Tell them I ain't coming back."

For what it's worth, I think everyone here has different styles of communication. Some styles just rub some people the wrong way, while they don't bother others in the least bit.

I know DT comes across sometimes like what he is stating is fact. But if you read years and years of posts, you understand that he does consider other people's opinions, he isn't dogmatic, and so forth and realize that is just how he talks. In your mind, you add your own qualifier, that he means, "In my opinion..." He just doesn't say it. That's his style.

I do wish RWED would be less accusing. When people gang up on one person, all the "you suck" comments get to you, you know? (YOU should know.)

Anyway, he's gone.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Monday, November 22, 2010 9:12 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
I’ve lauded Ron Paul numerous times, and said that if I’d known more about him at the time, I might have paid more attention to him. It’s not Ron Paul anyone’s been dissing, for the most part, it’s what the Tea Party has turned into NOW.

I haven't finished reading the whole post, Niki, but just that part of it jumped out at me.

Ron Paul is said to be facing up to THREE tea-party-backed opponents in his next primary.

So can someone from the tea party - any of the 9 million tea parties - please explain to us all how this is in any way, by any stretch of the imagination, Ron Paul's rEVOLution movement, when they're running hard-line right-wing ideologues against him?

Meanwhile, I sit here being so "worshipful" of Obama that I'm seriously considering whether or not I would back a third-party candidate - or even a Democratic challenger - if someone wants to take him on from the left side of the political spectrum.

And if DT thinks he's being "kicked around" because of some vociferous and boisterous disagreement with his policies and the people he's backing, he's acting more spineless than any of those "loyal libs" he heaps so much scorn on.

This place is supposed to be a free-fire zone for ideas. It's fun when folks agree with you, and less so when they don't. But dude, seriously, don't run away just because some here disagree with some of your fundamental assumptions.

This Space For Rent!

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Monday, November 22, 2010 9:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I find it sad that DT ran away, which he did not so long ago as well.

If he lurks, I have this to say to him:

DT, your post in the Legislation = violence thread amazed me. To say “Your point is obvious to anyone who has applied logic, and the opposition is opposing for the sake of opposing and so well never cave” is to go explicitly against what you advised us; you said discussion was always possible, that if one failed, it was that their diplomatic abilities were to blame. Yet look at what you just said! The dichotomy is obvious, as is what I explained in my thread to you. YOU have determined that the point is obvious, and judged that the opposition is debating it merely for the of opposing. I have been trying to debate the issue, as has CTTS, yet you tell her to give up, that she’s right, end of story.

Mal made a wonderful point about laws protecting the virgin; also about the shades of grey, as well as the point that CTTS has posed the question by taking it to the extreme, without considering anything else. If everything were a “suggestion”, CTTS’ point, then we would live in a state of anarchy where only those strong enough to enforce what THEY wanted would rule. How is that different than laws agreed upon by a society as a whole in order to allow those NOT as strong as others to survive?

Quote:
But CTS is right. It does not matter what I say, or where I stand, I'm not a true believer in the socialist religion, and you guys will stone me for it, and there's nothing I can do.

That statement is amazing. It was pointed out to you that you advised one thing, then did the exact opposite. HOW it was pointed out was, in my opinion, not good discussion techniques, but it is in no way forcing you off the board, it is pointing out your own dichotomy, which is valid.

What you are saying to CTTS is that when we believe we are right, we should all stop discussing or debating anything, if WE view the responses as isn't comfortable for us. And what we believe is right has to agree with what YOU believe is right, or we’re close-minded fools.

Quote:
I've debated with these people many times. Individually, it's easy, because individually, they are reasonable humans. When they get together in groups they become pack hunters and join the hive mind with their fellow travelers. This beast cannot be reasoned with.

That’s just amazing! Individuals are debating with CTTS about her initial premise, and suddenly we are a pack of dogs with a hive mind.

You are a walking dichotomy, DT, I don’t know how it is possible to communicate with you. Because one person disagrees with what might be considered inappropriate vehemence, we are all tarred as something vicious who is “hunting” CTTS! Then you go on to be even more vicious and nasty than anyone here has been toward CTTS!!

You FEEL that you are being forced to do something, but nobody is forcing you. That you see abuse hurled at you MUCH less than the rest of us do, who endure the same or far worse than has ever been hurled at you, indicates the very unwillingness to attempt communication of which you accused me; you kept saying it was MY fault that I couldn’t debate with extremists, yet now you blame us, in toto, as virtually a pack of rabid dogs, and are running away.

To quote you:

Quote:
Everything is negotiable. Most people are not motivated by evil

You just refuted that, with the words you wrote. You called us about as “evil” as anything I can think of.

Quote:
It's what you try, not how hard....I had to admit that the person I was discussing with was a reasonable human being who had arrived to his position through logic, and that his opinions were ones which he held because he believed they were right.... that he was not some form of subhumanoid mutant.... If you just treated his positions as rational, and granted him any points he might have, he was much more willing to listen to your suggestions.... There is always time for discussion.

You said that last one more than once.

The one that really got to me, and which you have just refuted, was

Quote:
If they don't listen, you work on your diplomatic communication skills and try again.

People here aren’t for the most part extremists, Nazy sympathizers, Westboro Church followers (with whom you said you would take up the challenge to communicate) or any of those sorts of things. Yet you tell CTTS not to debate us, revile us as a pack of hyenas, and run from disagreement. Respectfully, I don't believe you had the conversations you claimed; in my opinion, you wouldn't have been able to take the heat.

I can’t help wondering if you’re entirely un-self-aware or your lectures are just attempts to control others, without any thought to them applying to you.

Given I and others have endured far more REAL and ugly abuse than anything I've seen directed at you, yet are still here and still attempt to be civil, I think it's best you don't participate. I'm sad to see that, given I appreciate your posts and some of the things you've had to say, but I admit I've about decided to ignore you at this point, given the past few days and how extremely your advice contrasts with your own actions.

It's a shame when we lose any voice at all, but certainly anyone who participates down here knows what they're getting into, and I feel you have often given better than you get, in regard to attacks and nastiness; your consistent negative generalizations and judgments are no worse than what I've seen aimed at you.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, November 22, 2010 10:04 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"seriously, don't run away..."

Hello,

Sometimes stepping away can serve to refresh the spirit. I am loathe to admit this, but when I took my recent unannounced vacation from these forums, it wasn't merely because they were becoming caustic and cruel. It was also because some of that acidity was rubbing off on me. My posts contained a much higher amount of sarcasm and biting humor than usual, and it was counterproductive to civil discourse.

I like to think that taking a break can be neither surrender nor retreat, but rather a rebalancing.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Monday, November 22, 2010 12:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Thing is, has anyone taken into account the guy's been hammered from several sides by bitter, personal tragedy and has thus allowed emotion to overcome reason without the willingness to acknowledge it cause of his own pain ?

That's why I was seriously biting my tongue instead of delivering the kind of verbal flogging I would generally resort to over that.

Not that this excuses it, but understanding WHY people do things is, I think, important to reacting to WHAT they do.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, November 22, 2010 12:30 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I didn't know that, Frem, and I certainly didn't mean to take advantage of anyone's weakened state. If I'd seen that, I'd probably have stayed out of discussions with him entirely.

The things I tried to say to him where part of a pattern, and some of them I've mentioned before. It's certainly understandable if his situation caused him to post differently than he otherwise would, so I'd have waited until another time to direct these things to him if I'd known.

Unless we read all of every thread by every poster, or it's mentioned more than once, we can't know these things, can we? So on my part, at least, while I don't feel I was abusing him, I'm sorry if it added to anything else he's going through. Never my intent.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, November 22, 2010 1:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh I wasn't blamin anyone, just pondering the likely cause of such a sharp turn, and personal losses have a way of doin that, is all.

Hell, even I am not immune, tho my response is usually cold blooded, laser guided rage than anything else, dismissing all and every but the target.

-F

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Monday, November 22, 2010 1:46 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I didn't know that, Frem, and I certainly didn't mean to take advantage of anyone's weakened state. If I'd seen that, I'd probably have stayed out of discussions with him entirely.

You did know, Niki. At least, both tragedies were announced on a thread you were posting in. You must have just forgotten. It is easy.

All falling down
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=46245

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Monday, November 22, 2010 2:57 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

I hope DT's leaving is a temporary thing. I've not read everything he's posted, but most of what I have read seemed intelligent, and we need more intelligent folk on multiple sides of these issues.

Far as ganging up goes, sometimes it does look like the relative left is ganging up someone at first glance, but I don't think that's really the case. I'm assuming to more accurate assessment is that kwiko, niki, mal, etc... are enjoying a debate with a someone not of their own relative ideological camp who doesn't blame or question their sexual orientation with every disagreement. I found DT's post concerning climate change especially interesting.

Some of those quotes did certainly look partisan, and I might look into those in context later, but overall I thought DT was a pretty shiny intelligent person and I'm sad to see him leave.

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Monday, November 22, 2010 4:59 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Oh I wasn't blamin anyone, just pondering the likely cause of such a sharp turn, and personal losses have a way of doin that, is all.

-F

Point taken, and I was being an unthinking prick in that regard, and NOT considering his current state given recent occurrences.

Apologies to DT on that score.

This Space For Rent!

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Monday, November 22, 2010 5:03 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Far as ganging up goes, sometimes it does look like the relative left is ganging up someone at first glance, but I don't think that's really the case. I'm assuming to more accurate assessment is that kwiko, niki, mal, etc... are enjoying a debate with a someone not of their own relative ideological camp who doesn't blame or question their sexual orientation with every disagreement.

Absolutely. Perhaps all that's been up with DT in the past few weeks has affected him, because I've never noticed him to have such an unpleasant tone before. I am sorry to hear he's had rough times, and like Frem I caught some of that from his posts and did indeed sit back because of it.

But rough times do not excuse a person for doing the things DT has been up to. I will not let anyone misrepresent what I say and talk down to me. If DT wanted support in his dark days, he took the wrong approach.

Still, I wish him all the best and I hope that when he comes back he'll be ready to converse a bit more smoothly. If not, I'll converse with him all the same.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, November 22, 2010 5:03 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I hope DT's leaving is a temporary thing. I've not read everything he's posted, but most of what I have read seemed intelligent, and we need more intelligent folk on multiple sides of these issues.

Far as ganging up goes, sometimes it does look like the relative left is ganging up someone at first glance, but I don't think that's really the case. I'm assuming to more accurate assessment is that kwiko, niki, mal, etc... are enjoying a debate with a someone not of their own relative ideological camp who doesn't blame or question their sexual orientation with every disagreement. I found DT's post concerning climate change especially interesting.

Some of those quotes did certainly look partisan, and I might look into those in context later, but overall I thought DT was a pretty shiny intelligent person and I'm sad to see him leave.

Appreciate the vote of confidence, Happy. Thing is, there's a great deal that DT and I *DO* agree on, and a few things we don't - and lately we've been focused on the latter and forgetting about the former.

It happens from time to time - someone you thought you were on pretty solid footing with posts something with which you disagree, and things escalate. Heck, DT and I have done this dance more than a few times ourselves, and we generally get over it pretty quickly.

I'm hoping this is one of those times.

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:49 AM

KANEMAN

Nikki
"I'm just getting getting up; and I read and re-read some of your posts. What you don't seem to understand is that you trigger people into frustration, anger, defensiveness, etc. because the WAY you write is mostly in lecture form, as in "I know the answers, now, here they are:" Maybe if you phrased things differently, people would be more amenable to hearing what you MEAN, not just what you say."

That is hilarious!!!! The pot calls the kettle a nigger.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:55 AM

KANEMAN

I happen to like DT. You guys are cruel jerks, queers, or bitter cunts...Where is your humanity?

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
I happen to like DT. You guys are cruel jerks, queers, or bitter cunts...Where is your humanity?

Hello,

Well, we wouldn't want any pots to be calling kettles black.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:11 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
I happen to like DT. You guys are cruel jerks, queers, or bitter cunts...Where is your humanity?

I think it's over there, right next to your decency and honesty.

This Space For Rent!

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Tuesday, November 23, 2010 9:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I don’t doubt it, CTTS, I tend to focus on the things relating to the topic and sometimes I scan, especially DT’s and Frem’s posts, or don’t read them at all, because of the length. I TRY to, but the time involved sometimes makes me stop reading part-way through the thread or not take in something. It wasn’t intentional; that’s all I can say. Given I have a set amount of time (when I manage self-control!) that I’m here, I try to respond on topic as much as I can, then I’m not back until the next day—so that makes for a LOT of posts sometimes between when I last posted and when I return. I also mix people up, for some of the same reasons, and have been called on it.

Happy, I think you’re right; we pay more attention to someone who expresses themselves with a modicum of intelligence, and debate is fun (for me at least)...sometimes it gets into personal anger and frustration. On the other side, the “ganging up” is exactly that...numerous people all making nasty personal attacks with nothing else to say. I believe I can be considered somewhat of an authority on that, given I’ve been the recipient of such “ganging ups” more times than I can count. Also of people dogging my posts for no other reason than to make ugly statements about me.

Mike,

Quote:
I've never noticed him to have such an unpleasant tone before.

I did...before he left last time, he was going at me pretty good and I was aware of it...in exactly the same way he was just recently. Maybe last time he had something in his life that was affecting him, too, I can’t know, but when he returned, I began to see the same pattern emerging, and escalating.

Which is NOT to excuse myself; I try to be aware of when people are hurting and offer support. I may have even expressed sympathy for him at some point; I KNOW someone recently was having a tough time and I did, but my brain seems to be able to handle just so much, and communicating here takes a lot of concentration for me.

While I agree with Mike to a point about not clarifying/standing up for myself, on the board I run we try to stay aware of when someone's posts reflect them being in an "episode"; there, it's imperative because we all experience times when our disabilties get the better of us, but I try to keep the same thing in mind in all aspects of my life. I fail a lot, I know that.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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