REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Conservatives vs Liberals

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 1, 2010 12:37
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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 4:33 AM

CANTTAKESKY



http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/1129/Conservatives-vs
.-liberals-Before-you-indoctrinate-your-kids-read-this


Quote:

But these opposing viewpoints also suggest a different idea: Contradictory statements can both be true. Yes, America's success lies partly in its dynamism and opportunity – and yes, progress requires that we provide for those who have lost their jobs or their health. In other words, if you set your dogma aside, you may find some truth in the ideals of people you've always disagreed with.

Which reminds me of something the extreme partisans would prefer we forget: governing in America has happened mainly in the middle zone, between the far left and far right. Yes, the differences are significant and worth negotiating over, but what we're really talking about is a few percentage points in tax rates, not a choice between socialism and the abolition of all taxes.

Contempt for the opposition may be profitable on talk radio, but it doesn't help the rest of us. All it accomplishes is to drive people further into their angry, fanatical corners.

This is the next political insight I'll be sharing with my kids.



My takeaway: extremism deadlocks us and prevents us from solving problems.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 5:36 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I have often tried to talk about my contradictory beliefs. i.e. How can I consider the possibility of Universal Health Care when I also advocate small government?

And this segment you have quoted articulates it well.

There is a law in Arizona that requires you to surrender a drink of water if asked, free of charge. This law, in principle if not in scale, is functionally identical to Universal Health Care. It forces me to part with resources in order to help someone else. It creates charity at gunpoint, a kind of moralized theft, a premise I abhor.

So why aren't I up in arms, protesting in the street about this unfair law that requires me to hydrate people against my will? Water isn't free, you know. Making me give people water is outright theft.

But I can't bring myself to protest such a law. In principle it violates one set of beliefs, but in function it supports another set. The set that says you shouldn't just watch as people around you suffer and die when you could have done something to help. Something that, while it would cost you some money, probably wouldn't break you. Or even hurt you much.

Scaled up, it's why I don't want Universal Health Care... but could probably be convinced to accept it. It's just a bigger drink of water.

But with that knowledge comes the gnawing uneasiness that I'd be holding the gun to every citizen of the nation. I'd be cocking that gun and I'd be saying, "Give, or else."

And that makes me almost as sick as watching someone die.

It is these compromises and balances of ideals and beliefs that finds most people in the functional middle of the political spectrum (regardless of their strongly held philosophies.) They temper their beliefs with what is practical and achievable, and are willing to make concessions with others and with themselves to get something done.

--Anthony







Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 6:00 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
My takeaway: extremism deadlocks us and prevents us from solving problems.


Unless you are a problem solving extremist...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 6:37 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
They temper their beliefs with what is practical and achievable, and are willing to make concessions with others and with themselves to get something done.

Exactly.

In my wildest fantasies, each major political philosophy can have its own planet. We can all have, more or less, the kind of government each of us wants. Christian theocracy planet. Muslim theocracy planet. Communist planet. Socialist planet. Libertarian planet. Anarchist planet.

But that's way down the road.

Until then, we have to learn to share this one planet and live with each other's differences. I think, if we have some underlying foundation of universal respect for all humans, that compassion can ultimately overrule ideological rigidity.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 7:26 AM

DREAMTROVE


Until then, we have nations.

We should focus on our key goals, and not on the methods that we prefer. If we could do this, we'd have a lot more in common.

I'm on free market side, but I'll concur with the left on this: Multinational corporations violate national sovereignty. You do not have to be multinational in order to sell products. You could make products in Korea, and sell them to the united states. If you exist in both, you have a serious potential problem: Destroying America is neither a profit problem nor a legal problem in Korea or anywhere else, except in America.

No one can blow you up, or kill you, or poison you, or lock you away for no reason, or blow up the Earth... this stuff is no good for anyone. The only possible use someone would have for this would be if they could hurt you, and then dominate.

Also, partisan bickering wastes time. Socialism isn't really a goal for the socialist voters, I think that was demonstrated on the distributist thread: Their goal is equality. I doubt very much that they would prefer a totalitarian state like China or the USSR to enforce that equality, if anything was proven to create that equality without a serious cost somewhere else, then they'd probably consider it.

I suspect the same is true of religious groups. Muslims probably have muslim republics more because of the rest of us than because of them: Our laws won't let them be muslim. We could back off a little bit, and allow groups a little bit more freedom to have their own rules, provided that these rules allow people to leave the group, and don't kill members of their group or anyone elses.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 7:40 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I have often tried to talk about my contradictory beliefs. i.e. How can I consider the possibility of Universal Health Care when I also advocate small government?

And this segment you have quoted articulates it well.

There is a law in Arizona that requires you to surrender a drink of water if asked, free of charge. This law, in principle if not in scale, is functionally identical to Universal Health Care. It forces me to part with resources in order to help someone else. It creates charity at gunpoint, a kind of moralized theft, a premise I abhor.

So why aren't I up in arms, protesting in the street about this unfair law that requires me to hydrate people against my will? Water isn't free, you know. Making me give people water is outright theft.

But I can't bring myself to protest such a law. In principle it violates one set of beliefs, but in function it supports another set. The set that says you shouldn't just watch as people around you suffer and die when you could have done something to help. Something that, while it would cost you some money, probably wouldn't break you. Or even hurt you much.

Scaled up, it's why I don't want Universal Health Care... but could probably be convinced to accept it. It's just a bigger drink of water.

But with that knowledge comes the gnawing uneasiness that I'd be holding the gun to every citizen of the nation. I'd be cocking that gun and I'd be saying, "Give, or else."

And that makes me almost as sick as watching someone die.

It is these compromises and balances of ideals and beliefs that finds most people in the functional middle of the political spectrum (regardless of their strongly held philosophies.) They temper their beliefs with what is practical and achievable, and are willing to make concessions with others and with themselves to get something done.




Consider that we have Universal Health Care now, it's just called the ER. The gun you're pointing is at your own head...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 7:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Yes, we have an ineffective Universal Health Plan now, one whose goal is to stabilize patients and not to save them. One that also charges money under the threat of ruining credit ratings.

I hope nothing in my statement gave the impression that I fail to appreciate the nuances, cost, and counter-cost.

I meant to convey quite the opposite.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 8:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
My takeaway: extremism deadlocks us and prevents us from solving problems.


Unless you are a problem solving extremist...


I had nothing to do with it!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuspiciouslySpecificDenial


-F

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 8:31 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Yes, we have an ineffective Universal Health Plan now, one whose goal is to stabilize patients and not to save them. One that also charges money under the threat of ruining credit ratings.

I hope nothing in my statement gave the impression that I fail to appreciate the nuances, cost, and counter-cost.

I meant to convey quite the opposite.

--Anthony




Just trying to assuage your guilt ... and get that gun out of your hands.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 8:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I appreciate the effort. But I prefer to feel the guilt. Even when making the least evil of evil choices, even when the greater part of good and glory are served, I feel one should face the full reality of every evil that they do.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 9:01 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I appreciate the effort. But I prefer to feel the guilt. Even when making the least evil of evil choices, even when the greater part of good and glory are served, I feel one should face the full reality of every evil that they do.


I am SO stealing that - you just summed up my *entire* argument in respect to "The ends justify the means" in a minimum of words.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2010 12:37 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
But I prefer to feel the guilt. Even when making the least evil of evil choices, even when the greater part of good and glory are served, I feel one should face the full reality of every evil that they do.

This one is going into my collection of Anthony quotations too.

Awesome.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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