Do we want to be like Mexico? by SignyM

America loves a winner!

What are you even talking about ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 5:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I suppose this is a way of saying that you think the U.S. is in decline.

Of course, you could have made the same statement in 1880. It may even have been more true at the time.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 6:17 AM

DREAMTROVE

Recent experiences might be affecting your judgment of that nation, so I'll stay out of it.

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 7:43 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Or any number of other countries, especially in Asia. It always surprises me when people say "yeah, well in ___, they..." by way of comparing us as better, when to me, I judge America (or try to) mostly by comparing it to itself, or what we'd LIKE it to be.

I agree with your premise, tho', and it concerns me. Again, I see it more as a reflection of an EMPIRE dying, rather than the country, but no, I don't like the way it's been heading at ALL.

The response by Raptor is illustrative of what I see/hear too much here and other places: That America is The Best, nobody can hold a candle to us, how dare you say we're going wrong?" I believe in trying to keep my eyes open to the state of my country and always hoping we'll work to make it BETTER, not defend it to the death despite what we see around us.

So no, I don't want to be like Mexico (tho' what you described isn't true of the entire country). The thing to me is, Mexico has been poor for ages, maybe since the Aztecs died off, and is coming along--albeit slowly. We WERE rich and are going in the opposite direction...sigh...

Maybe that's just the way of empires, you know, "the bigger they are", and it'll level out eventually. I'm allowed to hope...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 10:03 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE

Al Franken had one of the best analogies I've ever seen on how the right and left each "love" America.

The right loves America like a three year old loves their mommy. Everything that mommy does is great, and anybody who doesn't like mommy is wrong!

The left love America like an adult loves their spouse. With a respect for the qualitites, but also an understanding of the faults, and a desire to help the one they love improve, by trying to improve on the faults.

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 10:13 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Lots of really poor people. A few very very wealthy. No services. A culture of thievery, and corruption up the wazoo.

They also have afternoon naps, really good food, a great sense of color, nice music, cool accents, fast mice, big round hats, hot latina women, and nice beaches.

So can we pass on the failed state and still pick up the good culture.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 10:32 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Al Franken had one of the best analogies I've ever seen on how the right and left each "love" America.

The right loves America like a three year old loves their mommy. Everything that mommy does is great, and anybody who doesn't like mommy is wrong!

The left love America like an adult loves their spouse. With a respect for the qualitites, but also an understanding of the faults, and a desire to help the one they love improve, by trying to improve on the faults.

First, that's beyond a ridiculous analogy. If anyone loves or wants to love their country like a parent figure, it's the Left.

Second... Niki is classically quick to the defense of Sigy, w/ out any clue why. I asked for clarification, and ( as of yet ) have seen none. Niki, your definition of what is 'best' for this country continues to be misguided and naive.

Third... you omitted Tequila. While not so much my choice of beverage these days, who doesn't enjoy a solid Margarita every now and then ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 11:10 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Interesting article on the subject.....

My Country, Right or Wrong
By Weeden Nichols
February 8, 2009

The phrase “My country, right or wrong!” is known to all of us. To some of us, it represents the epitome of patriotism. To others, it may represent the worst of knee-jerk, right-wing, so-called, “patriotism.” I had always, correctly-enough, attributed the phrase to Stephen Decatur, naval hero, captain at age twenty-five, and one of the fathers of the US Navy. The phrase was spoken by Decatur as part of a warrior’s toast:

“Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong.”

The phrase is also central to a quote from Carl Shurz, Union Army General, later US Senator, and, still later, US Secretary of the Interior:

“My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”

It seems obvious to me that General Shurz was consciously referring to the famous quote from Stephen Decatur, and that he intentionally used it to focus upon what he considered to be a concise definition of responsible patriotism.

These two quotes have been used to introduce any number of writings on the general topic of patriotism, but only one or the other, depending on the writer’s purpose. I am using both. I should note also that both Decatur and Shurz seem to be using the term “country” as identical to the government of the country. I will continue that meaning in this piece, but I should say also that some of my favorite “love of country and homeland” works were by persons who had no great affection for the governments of their homelands.

Decatur’s toast might be inflated in its implications, intended for effect, but it is also possible that Decatur meant exactly what he said. I believe Shurz meant what he said.

There are two kinds of people – those who divide things into categories, and those who do not. I do. I would divide those who care what their country is and what it does (and this is not everybody) into four categories:

1. Those who deny any possibility that their country might commit misdeeds or missteps, and who ignore any evidence to the contrary.
2. Those who are aware, but who consider themselves honor-bound to be loyal and obedient until and unless they become the decision-maker, or unless the decision-maker consults them, in which case they would exercise their best judgment.
3. Those who love their country but are aware of misdeeds and missteps, who wish to hold their country to its best values, and who therefore feel compelled to speak truth to power.
4. Those who renounce, deny, or reject their country upon evidence of misdeeds and missteps.

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Al Franken had one of the best analogies I've ever seen on how the right and left each "love" America.

The right loves America like a three year old loves their mommy. Everything that mommy does is great, and anybody who doesn't like mommy is wrong!

The left love America like an adult loves their spouse. With a respect for the qualitites, but also an understanding of the faults, and a desire to help the one they love improve, by trying to improve on the faults.

That is a great analogy.

The truth of it is even helpfully re-enforced by the entirely expected "Nuh-uh, you are" response of the usual source.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 11:28 AM

America loves a winner!

No, it's a lame analogy, but for reasons which are so far above you, that it's not only sad, but not worth my time and effort even trying to explain.

You, as well as all, should have learned what makes the United States special, long ago. Instead , you were filled w/ nonsensical b.s. about 'multiculturalism' and only what this country has done wrong.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 11:30 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE

As usual, Rappy's you are wrong and I cant explain why defense

Getting kinda repetitive and sad there buddy. Do you have an articulate thought, or just a hole in your face that noise comes out of?

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 1:23 PM

Isn't it awesome how he proves our point without even realizing it?

He's not even really worth acknowledging anymore, other than for comedic value.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 2:45 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
As usual, Rappy's you are wrong and I cant explain why defense

Getting kinda repetitive and sad there buddy. Do you have an articulate thought, or just a hole in your face that noise comes out of?

I'm not wrong, and I'm not your 'buddy'. But I am bored w/ the merry-go-round on the message boards routine.

You falsely attribute a position for me when I've not even stated one.

SOP w/ certain folks on here.

* yawn *

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, December 2, 2010 2:46 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Isn't it awesome how he proves our point without even realizing it?

He's not even really worth acknowledging anymore, other than for comedic value.

It's funnier still that YOU think you've proven any thing. It really is.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 3, 2010 8:27 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, Blue,

Quote:
The right loves America like a three year old loves their mommy. Everything that mommy does is great, and anybody who doesn't like mommy is wrong!

The left love America like an adult loves their spouse. With a respect for the qualitites, but also an understanding of the faults, and a desire to help the one they love improve, by trying to improve on the faults.

Excellent. Succinctly sums up how it has appeared to me!

Poor Raptor. You’ve never even noticed that Sig and I are on opposite sides of the spectrum on as many things as we agree on...probably more! That’s amusing...as is the rest, I’m afraid.

JS, good article.

Quote:
To some of us, it represents the epitome of patriotism. To others, it may represent the worst of knee-jerk, right-wing, so-called, “patriotism.”

That’s how I’ve seen it, too. Rarely have I heard anyone self-described as being on the left say “my country, right or wrong”. I wonder how Raptor rationalizes the fact that the left are almost always the ones demonstrating and protesting against things we believe our country is doing wrong? But then, I’m sure he has a rationalization. I believe in

Quote:
if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right

That’s how I believe we “lefties” feel...and for me, it doesn’t even take being “wrong”, just a desire to keep improving it.

Quote:
Those who deny any possibility that their country might commit misdeeds or missteps, and who ignore any evidence to the contrary

That, to me, epitomizes mostly those on the right. How many times have we heard any protests as being “un-American” and the protesters told to “love it or leave it”? I didn’t hear many describing the Town Hall disruptions as “un-American” or telling those people to “go back where you came from”...perhaps un-American in that they stifled the free speech of everyone there but themselves, but not expanded to the generalization. Me, I’m a 3.

I agree with Story. Not only that, Story, but he reinforced it immediately:

Quote:
You, as well as all, should have learned what makes the United States special, long ago. Instead , you were filled w/ nonsensical b.s. about 'multiculturalism' and only what this country has done wrong.

The adult equivalent of “Gee, mommy’s wonderful and perfect; all you do is bitch about her and call her wrong!"

You know, it’s easy how he comes to his conclusions; it’s not “My country, right or wrong” to people like Raptor, it’s that America IS ALWAYS RIGHT. They may admit to a flaw now and again, but usually have a rationalization as to how it came about or that it’s actually “right” if you look deep enough. Prime example; torture. More often than not, our Republican candidates (and politicians) either approve of it, approve of it “in certain circumstances”, or find rationalizations where it might not be “torture”.

Now THIS IS A GENERALIZATION, there are absolutely exceptions, AND it is as obviously a political “talking point” about the Right just as liberals being “Commie sympathizers” (oh, wait, nowadays it’s “terrorist sympathizers”, isn’t it?), or that Democrats always “want” to raise taxes, but these things usually have some basis in truth. As I see it, right wingers don’t think as much “my country right or wrong” as “my country is always right”. So of COURSE Raptor can’t see otherwise.

It's called "perspective", anti-black-and-white thinking. You know, an RWA mentality. (Here it comes...)

Of COURSE nobody can prove it right or wrong in toto, but unfortunately, Raptor, you just made a couple of really good statements which serve TO prove it right for you.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, December 3, 2010 8:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Isn't it awesome how he proves our point without even realizing it?

He's not even really worth acknowledging anymore, other than for comedic value.

It's funnier still that YOU think you've proven any thing. It really is.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

*sigh*

I didn't claim to prove anything, dimwit.

I merely commented on how your oh-so-predictable response was very illustrative of the analogy.

And you didn't get it. You didn't get it so damned much, you had to invent a claim from me that I never made.

Awesome. You never fail to amuse.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 3, 2010 8:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I'm not wrong, and I'm not your 'buddy'. But I am bored w/ the merry-go-round on the message boards routine.

Says the guy who refuses to discuss anything, or cite anything, and just plays the "you're not worth it" card every single time he cannot form a coherent argument....

Nice.

Quote:
You falsely attribute a position for me when I've not even stated one.

No, he made an observation about your very own words.

You, on the other hand, did falsely attribute me with claiming to have proven something, even though I made no such claim...

Quote:
SOP w/ certain folks on here.

Yep, especially those with "Raptor" in their name.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 3, 2010 9:08 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE

Its quite nice-when your words stand on their own merit, and your peers competently refute the public idiocy response-you really have little left to say...

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Friday, December 3, 2010 4:50 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Al Franken had one of the best analogies I've ever seen on how the right and left each "love" America.

The right loves America like a three year old loves their mommy. Everything that mommy does is great, and anybody who doesn't like mommy is wrong!

The left love America like an adult loves their spouse. With a respect for the qualitites, but also an understanding of the faults, and a desire to help the one they love improve, by trying to improve on the faults.

One of the best analogies you've ever seen? Wow you are an asshole. The "left" that wants us all to live off the tit of government is the "spouse"? You are no menace...you are a tool and an idiot....I don't even have a clue in how to correct your stupid thinking....

And, you show your fuck-nuttery by quoting Al Franken....

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Friday, December 3, 2010 5:07 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Quote:
Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
Al Franken had one of the best analogies I've ever seen on how the right and left each "love" America.

The right loves America like a three year old loves their mommy. Everything that mommy does is great, and anybody who doesn't like mommy is wrong!

The left love America like an adult loves their spouse. With a respect for the qualitites, but also an understanding of the faults, and a desire to help the one they love improve, by trying to improve on the faults.

That is an amusing quote, but not really profound or accurate. It compares the worst examples of the right to the best examples of the left. (I also think it's a bit over optimistic of the left, but I do love that attitude.)

What's more arrogant, believing America got it right with the Bill of Rights or believing you could do better? That's a trick question, those attitudes are both dangerous unchecked. Of course I think we should always strive for improvement, but we ought to be careful and think about it. 'Could be the solutions we're looking for already exist without the need for additional legistlation.

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Friday, December 3, 2010 5:55 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
The "left" that wants us all to live off the tit of government is the "spouse"?

Kane, you and Rap have both made the mistake of substituting the word 'government' for 'America'. Let's substitute the right word back:

Quote:
Al Franken had one of the best analogies I've ever seen on how the right and left each "love" America.

The right loves America like a three year old loves their mommy. Everything that mommy does is great, and anybody who doesn't like mommy is wrong!

The left love America like an adult loves their spouse. With a respect for the qualitites, but also an understanding of the faults, and a desire to help the one they love improve, by trying to improve on the faults.

There's some truth in it, I would say. It undoubtedly flatters the left, and I don't think it perfectly nails either mentality (there are more than two, for a start); but it's a decent quote.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, December 3, 2010 5:56 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
What's more arrogant, believing America got it right with the Bill of Rights or believing you could do better? That's a trick question, those attitudes are both dangerous unchecked.

Well said.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, December 3, 2010 6:03 PM

America loves a winner!

story, niki , and anyone else who continues to ramble off the path , into the thicket and over the cliff....

I'm here, standing in my original spot, still waiting to hear exactly why anyone thinks we're destined to be like Mexico.

While it's sorta funny to see the lot of you ramble on and toss about insults which have absolutely nothing to do/ the issue here, it's also sad.

But, you folks tend to get worked up over things which you know nothing about, so hope that works out for ya.

KPO

With regard to what Stuart Smalley said about America....so what ? That's an entirely separate issue to the one which was originally posted. Sure, there are ties to American exceptionalism, but I'd say that's secondary to the specific issue.

And also, the Left doesn't distinguish between Government and America. The Right does.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 3, 2010 6:11 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
And also, the Left doesn't distinguish between Government and America. The Right does.

Not in this thread apparently

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, December 3, 2010 6:15 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
And also, the Left doesn't distinguish between Government and America. The Right does.

Except in this thread

It's not personal. It's just war.

No, except never.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, December 3, 2010 6:28 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
With regard to what Stuart Smalley said about America....so what ? That's an entirely separate issue to the one which was originally posted.

I'm not going to say America is going to end up like Mexico; that's pretty radical in my book, barring something like nuclear terrorism.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, December 3, 2010 7:05 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
With regard to what Stuart Smalley said about America....so what ? That's an entirely separate issue to the one which was originally posted.

I'm not going to say America is going to end up like Mexico; that's pretty radical in my book, barring something like nuclear terrorism.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Well, ok then. We agree on something.

Sig here stated we're headed that way. I merely asked for clarification. All I can say is, w/ what was posted, I think the Nov elections were a great 1st step to ensuring those fears never come to pass.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, December 4, 2010 8:13 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sig cited

Quote:
Lots of really poor people. A few very very wealthy. No services. A culture of thievery, and corruption up the wazoo.

as things which already exist in America and are worse in Mexico, asking if we really wanted to go that way. Although I’d have said “decrepit infrastructure” rather than “no services”, myself.

Story, you did kinda give him the ammunition by saying “Isn't it awesome how he proves our point without even realizing it?”, you know. I know what you meant, and it was HE who provided the proof, but it’s a grey area to me to say that you didn’t claim to prove anything. Just sayin’.

Rap, It was obvious from your first query, and prior knowledge of you, what you response to the initial question would be. And you did not disappoint.

Quote:
You, as well as all, should have learned what makes the United States special, long ago.

That illustrates precisely the “mommy is wonderful” mentality that’s been mentioned, and no matter how long a thread like this goes up, there will, I don’t doubt, NEVER be any recognition on your part that America is anything BUT “special” and perfect. Or at least he America you believe in—the one that wants to go back a hundred years.

Blue, you’re right about the quote. While I enjoy it, I would call it a “caricature“, or “stereotype”, of both sides. Kind of like Kane’s pathetic

Quote:
The "left" that wants us all to live off the tit of government is the "spouse"?

except that it’s somewhat more accurate as a generalization than Kane’s, which is just the usual inane politispeak, in my opinion. Nonetheless, you’re right Happy, in that

Quote:
compares the worst examples of the right to the best examples of the left.

I like it, because there is enough truth in it, insofar as “the right wants to defend the status quo, while the left wants to work toward change for the better”, but I recognize it’s no more accurate in truth than Raptor’s “the Left doesn't distinguish between Government and America. The Right does.”

And yes, absolutely,

Quote:
those attitudes are both dangerous unchecked

Something we often forget, on both left and right. “All things in moderation” as the saying goes.

Rap, I’ll answer your question

Quote:
I'm here, standing in my original spot, still waiting to hear exactly why anyone thinks we're destined to be like Mexico

Check out the thread about the American empire...it’s all there. Those are the things we see which are leading to a decline in this country. We’re not “destined” to be anything, but thus far our leaders haven’t learned from history, and we’ve been to complacent to change the course of this country (if it could have been changed; if all empires are fated to die anyway---which I think may be true). At the present time we have many of the problems Mexico does, and they’re increasing...ergo the comparison.

On the other hand: worked up? Is anyone here worked up? Did I miss something? The only vehement one has been you, others of us have just been laughing and snarking at how your mentality seems to refuse to accept that there our “empire” is on the brink of collapse, and that we are not so “special” that we can’t fall like every other. It’s an illustration of “my country is always right”, the mommy syndrome, which we found telling...and amusing.

Quote:
Sig here stated we're headed that way. I merely asked for clarification. All I can say is, w/ what was posted, I think the Nov elections were a great 1st step to ensuring those fears never come to pass.

Sig stated no such thing, she said “we're doing everything we can to head in that direction”. By interpreting it the way YOU did, you’re claiming we haven’t got

Quote:
Lots of really poor people. A few very very wealthy. No services. A culture of thievery, and corruption up the wazoo

or else that having those things, and seeing them increase, we’re not in danger of becoming something less than what we were, headed for almost third-world status. I’m glad you think we’re doing so “exceptionally” well, but I’m afraid I see that as deliberate blindness.

Still amazes me how you guys are so convinced the Midterms will solve things, given the right wingers have stated quite clearly that their entire plan consists of “obstruct”, nothing more. If you think that’s heading in the right direction, you’re sadly mistaken. Time will show that. The right gained the majority in one branch of government...the weaker one at that. They want to leave us PRECISELY where we are, which means high unemployment, larger gap between rich and poor, no stimulus for the economy (unemployment insurance being the BEST stimulus, tax cuts for the rich being the WORST, and we know which they are pushing), further declining infrastructure, deregulation (and that’s really improved things, hasn’t it?), continued corruption and thievery, the promise of shutting down the government (which accomplishes absolutely nothing but hardship for everyone but the legislators), and no movement forward to “fix” anything. I’m assuming you believe that if they obstruct everything for the NEXT two years as they’ve attempted to so far, you’ll get a Republican triple threat and they can do as they want. I’m afraid you will be rather disappointed if they DID, and you’ll go back to whining if they didn’t. We’ll have to wait and see on that one. I assume you believe that Republicans “in charge” will do what you want; I would refer you to the past eight years to tell us how that would improve things. I imagine you think “they’ll do it right this time”, but I believe you’re wrong in that assumption.

As to you merely asking for clarification, your choice of wording, “What are you even talking about ?” sounds like “what the hell do you mean? No such thing!”, which is what most here expect of you and what led to the off-topic discussion. You “proved” that the impression was correct with your succeeding posts.

So you wanted to get back on topic; I’ve answered your question and explained how it got off topic and why we see you as believing “mommy can do no wrong”.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, December 4, 2010 8:24 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Sig cited

Quote:
Lots of really poor people. A few very very wealthy. No services. A culture of thievery, and corruption up the wazoo.

as things which already exist in America and are worse in Mexico"

Hello,

Again, what's different between now and 1860?

I don't see us trending to be more like Mexico.

I'm also not comfortable with the idea of saying Mexicans have a 'culture of thievery.'

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 7:57 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

RAPPY

Quote:
I'm here, standing in my original spot, still waiting to hear exactly why anyone thinks we're destined to be like Mexico.

I guess you didn't read my original post, or if you did you didn't understand it. Well, you know what they say: When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger. Please read my original post thoughtfully.

When you think about Mexico, or pretty much ANY nation south of the border, what stands out?

For me, it's always been the existence of extreme wealth in the midst of widespread poverty. The rancheros and plantations and haciendas and maquiladoras of the few, and the virtual serfs who work in them, or the vast urban unemployed who eke out a living tapping out belt buckles from tin cans, or running drugs.

All you have to do is drive through El Paso and look over towards Juarez. On one side, streets with lights. Homes with water and sewage and garbage services. Zoning. Environmental regulation. Emergency services. On the other side, shacks made of scrap, willy-nilly on sand hills right against the fence of a giant foundry, everything gray and blasted and dead from the soot. My cousin is fairly high up in INS (USCIS), he lives in El Paso and travels to Juarez at least twice a week, and it's a nightmare.

I've know about the corruption since whenever. I know many people at work who travel across the border, and they take things with them (spare batteries, cash, etc.) to pay off the various "police" who line the popular roadways, who will dream up an infraction for which you must pay a "fine". It's called la mordita, the little bite. My boss used to go to Mexico regularly, where they built an orphanage and took supplies. But they had to guard the supplies to make sure the orphanage staff wouldn't steal the electrical wires and clothes etc.

And the services? My friend's nephew is just another instance in a long string of instances. My colleague's BIL died in Mexico just two months ago due to a small brain anuerysm. He might actually have survived the bleed, but the bleed stopped his heart and it took the paramedics over 30 minutes to arrive (it wasn't that far away from help!) he was anoxic for too long, and it killed the rest of his brain.

And that's not even counting rampant drug violence.

What I see in Mexico are the rich and powerful not wanting to pay taxes for roads, education, the grid... and pretty much screwing over everyone else whenever they can.

There is NOTHING keeping us from being like Mexico. All we have to do is keep in doing what we've been doing since Reagan.

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Again, what's different between now and 1860?

We developed since then. And now we're going backwards.

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I don't see us trending to be more like Mexico.

I do. Our infrastructure is getting worse, economic inequity in the USA is the highest its been since the 1920s (That's historic. That's almost a 100-year stretch), and we have a culture that thinks this is all OK and defends the wealthy at every step because people are now comfortable with the idea that most people SHOULD be ground into the dirt. That's what comes of living off of Chinese prison labor and other poor people around the world.

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I'm also not comfortable with the idea of saying Mexicans have a 'culture of thievery.'

Well, they do. It's self defense. Their civil servants and police are paid poorly, their judges and politicians are taking bribes left and right and skimming the treasuries... being the sole honest person just puts you at an extreme disadvantage. And unless Americans get more uncomfortable with the idea of getting screwed over by the rich and powerful, we'll be there too.

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 8:08 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I'm also not comfortable with the idea of saying Mexicans have a 'culture of thievery.'

Mexicans have a culture of thievery, unlike Americans.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 8:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

CTS: That's part of the problem. We ALSO have a culture of thievery. So we agree.

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 8:18 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
CTS: That's part of the problem. We ALSO have a culture of thievery. So we agree.

Maybe this thread should have been titled, "We are already like Mexico"?

But if so, why are they coming to the States so much?

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 8:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

To live off the carcass of a bigger economy which has lost its way.

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 8:23 AM

America loves a winner!

Niki, Sig

This is the main problem I have w/ Leftists, like yourselves.

Anyone who a) questions or b) disagrees w/ your points of view, is deemed a fool.

You gave your opinion, but not much support for it.

Yeah. Mexico is poor. I get that. What's your point?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 8:39 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Anyone who a) questions or b) disagrees w/ your points of view, is deemed a fool. You gave your opinion, but not much support for it. Yeah. Mexico is poor. I get that. What's your point?

Rappy, I don't have problems with people who disagree with me, provided they can do so intelligently and honestly. Tony, Jongsstraw, DT and I have had many long discussions, and before them there was Finn.

It's not Mexico's poverty which is the problem. It is their lack of a pathway towards prosperity. Corruption, believe it or not, has a huge negative impact. As does predatory investment and a predatory upper class. The path towards prosperity involves several things: a robust internal market, an infrastructure which makes production more efficient (roads, water, communication, electricity,etc.), an educated population, rewarding production (not simply putting money on a conveyor to the wealthy, but building factories, houses, etc.). Mexico lacks all of those things.

There are papers... yes, real honest-to-god papers... which study the effect of corruption and hugely unequal wealth on development.

But yanno, from somebody who can only cite Limbo and who merrily dismisses hundreds of provable but inconvenient facts, your call for further data (support) is kinda ironic, doncha think?

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 11:16 AM

America loves a winner!

First of all, I rarely, if ever, cite Limbaugh.

Second, the 'facts' you claim I dismiss are still wrong, regardless of whether they're a few ,or a few hundred.

The Russians triced communism for 70+ years, before realizing it's colossal failure.

The point ? Some folks will only see what they want to see, regardless of reality.

You want to equate what's happening here to Mexico, yet you make no tangible , quantifiable connection. You dismiss the different cultures and histories of the two nations. There is ample opportunity here for those who want success, but sadly, too many are programmed to think that they need handouts from the Gov't to survive.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 4:35 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh yeah facts like the table of Federal revenues, actual UN policies and resolutions, etc. Yanno- trivial stuff that keeps getting in the way of your statements like
"The UN approved the US invasion of Iraq" (FALSE)
"The Bush tax cuts increased Federal revenues" (FALSE)
"The economy is one FIRE!" (FALSE)
And any notion that Saddam was an imminent and growing threat (FALSE).

So wrong on so many important points!

So, here's my point:

We've tried trickle down/ deregulation since Reagan, and REALLY pushed on that rope with Bush. And what did it get us? The worst economic downturn in almost 100 years. If we're talking about failed policies, why not talk about trickle down? BTW, I'm not advocating soviet-style socialism. But there are many parts to a well-running economy that the so-called free market not only fails to provide, it also actively interferes.

Quote:
You want to equate what's happening here to Mexico, yet you make no tangible , quantifiable connection.

What kind of connection are you looking for? Tell me, and I'll provide it.

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Sunday, December 5, 2010 4:37 PM

NEWTGINGRICH

No. Mexico is full of information terrorists.

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Monday, December 6, 2010 1:14 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
"The UN approved the US invasion of Iraq" (FALSE)
"The Bush tax cuts increased Federal revenues" (FALSE)
"The economy is one FIRE!" (FALSE)

All true, at the time they were posted, btw.

now?

Economy not on fire.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 6, 2010 9:15 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Omigawd, I just caught this one:

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Anyone who a) questions or b) disagrees w/ your points of view, is deemed a fool

From someone who regularly calls anyone who disagrees/questions him a fool, and far worse...

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they need handouts from the Gov't to survive.

I love how that’s keeps being prattled like it’s fact. Consistently. Obviously there is something psychological behind it, but the fact is that America is NOT going downhill because of the number of people who are getting assistance from the government, nor do all of those people feel they “need a handout”. It’s so much more complex than even just that one statement, not to mention that it isn’t the main problem, nor the major problem. But you’ll go on using that as an excuse, it only means you’re part of the problem, not the solution.

Then there’s the fact that the Bush tax cuts did NOT increase the federal reserve...they grew the debt, just as they will do again. They weren’t stimulative; tax cuts are the LEAST stimulative method of decreasing the debt; unemployment insurance is one of the MOST. You speak of facts, yet you haven’t provided a single one for any of YOUR points. To the best of my knowledge, the UN did NOT approve of the invasion of Iraq, but I could be wrong; again, please provide facts. As to the economy being on fire, no, it wasn’t. It was like one of those fake fireplace fires, looking real (if you don’t look too closely), but actually made up of nothing but paper and air. The “fire” doesn’t create any actual heat.

I see the question posed as “Do we want to continue going in that direction?”

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I don't see us trending to be more like Mexico

I see it in that the gap between rich and poor is growing incredibly faster than ever before.

Quote:
why are they coming to the States so much?

Because we’re NOT Mexico yet...and never will be, admittedly, it’s the DIRECTION we’re going that I believe is the question.

What’s being missed is that, if we continue to go in the direction we are, and Mexico got its shit together, in a few hundred years, yes, we could be the way they are now and they could be the rich country. It’s happened before. I think Sig put it succinctly in part:

Quote:
It's not Mexico's poverty which is the problem. It is their lack of a pathway towards prosperity. Corruption, believe it or not, has a huge negative impact. As does predatory investment and a predatory upper class. The path towards prosperity involves several things: a robust internal market, an infrastructure which makes production more efficient (roads, water, communication, electricity,etc.), an educated population, rewarding production (not simply putting money on a conveyor to the wealthy, but building factories, houses, etc.). Mexico lacks all of those things.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, December 6, 2010 9:19 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:

Quote:

I don't see us trending to be more like Mexico

I see it in that the gap between rich and poor is growing incredibly faster than ever before.

Of course you see that, because you're brain washed to see exactly that, no matter what.

It was like that in the 80's, some how was ignored in the 90's and now is happening " incredibly faster " now...

The rich continue to make choices which helped make them rich in the first place, while the poor continue to do the same.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 6, 2010 9:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Of course you see that, because you're brain washed to see exactly that, no matter what.

And can understand things like.... math.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 6, 2010 9:35 AM

America loves a winner!

Yes. Because I'm stoopid if i don't buy into the cockamamie view points being presented here.

GOT IT !

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 6, 2010 9:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

One of the best analogies you've ever seen? Wow you are an asshole.

The truth hurts. But it's okay, Kanie, your hatred will keep you warm at night.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 6, 2010 9:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yes. Because I'm stoopid if i don't buy into the cockamamie view points being presented here.

GOT IT !

No, you're stupid for blindly sticking to your ideology in the face of contradictory facts, and then getting belligerent when others dare to actually look at the evidence, rather than just see what they want to see, like you.

And, because you can't even spell "stupid".

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 6, 2010 9:53 AM

America loves a winner!

What FACTS ? All that's been presented here is baseless opinion.

There's a op ed piece on loving one's country, no matter what, which isn't relevant to the topic.

There's a tired old rant by ...well, one who predictably resorts to such things...which again, is off topic.

I've not been 'belligerent' in the least. All I've done is ask for evidence, to which I've been accused of all sorts of things.

You don't see the humor in misspelling 'stupid' ? Really?

Good grief.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 6, 2010 9:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
What FACTS ? All that's been presented here is baseless opinion.

There's a op ed piece on loving one's country, no matter what, which isn't relevant to the topic.

There's a tired old rant by ...well, one who predictably resorts to such things...which again, is off topic.

I've not been 'belligerent' in the least. All I've done is ask for evidence, to which I've been accused of all sorts of things.

You don't see the humor in misspelling 'stupid' ? Really?

Good grief.

It was a comment on your overall style, boy. And it's funny that you point out that it's all opinion in this thread - and then act as if your opinion somehow is more factual.

And you didn't get the sarcasm in the spelling comment.

THAT makes you really, really stooooopid.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 6, 2010 9:59 AM