S. 510: The End of Small (Organic) Farms? by HKCavalier

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

S. 510: The End of Small (Organic) Farms?

POSTED BY: HKCAVALIER
UPDATED: Thursday, December 9, 2010 14:00
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2101
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, December 7, 2010 6:20 PM

http://www.tendergrassfedmeat.com/2010/03/08/stop-senate-bill-s-510-sa
ve-organic-food/
Anyone, have any reassuring words about this mess? Jesus, first they sign our lives over to the Insurance Co.'s and now they're gonna force organic farms out of business?

I'm so tired of being angry.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, December 7, 2010 6:27 PM

DREAMTROVE

HK

Thanks

How classic.

Looks like we're headed for a massive centralized food distribution program. Historically, these end in the centralized system failing at some point causing a massive famine. Everyone should start growing their own. Alas, I fear we're headed to a day when the collection of safe water and growing of safe food will be done in as clandestine a manner as the cultivation of marijuanna.

Option 2: Flee America while you still can. I'm seriously considering this one.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, December 7, 2010 6:30 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
http://www.tendergrassfedmeat.com/2010/03/08/stop-senate-bill-s-510-sa
ve-organic-food/
Anyone, have any reassuring words about this mess? Jesus, first they sign our lives over to the Insurance Co.'s and now they're gonna force organic farms out of business?

I'm so tired of being angry.

Yanno HK, I feel like we're not angry enough.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, December 7, 2010 7:03 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Here's the legislation.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111s510es/pdf/BILLS-111s510es.pdf

I almost hesitate to suggest it, but could the problem the author of your cite seems to see, but doesn't define very well, be along the lines of the 'death panels' in the healthcare legislation?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, December 7, 2010 8:38 PM

HKCAVALIER

Yeah, sorry, Geez, that website is not the best, I just put up the first one I came to that actually talked about the substance of the bill. I'd already heard all about S. 510 in RL :) We grow some of our own food chez Cavalier, and belong to a farm collective...for now.

Surely you see the difference between, S. 510 giving the FDA the power to wipe out small farms and the totally fictional "death panels." Granted, S. 510 only grants them the power to wipe out small farming, doesn't mean they'd ever go and do such a thing.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 2:05 AM

DREAMTROVE

I'm not sure those death panels are so fictional. I'm having a lot of trouble getting past the bureaucracy of medicine, as was my sister until she collapsed on a hospital floor. I think it's fair to say that there is definitely a policy of rationing in place now.

But yes, the food policy change seems scary. Does this just apply to for profit enterprises like the organic farm we do most of our shopping at? What about the mennonites? Do they get a religious exemption? How about grow your own?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 2:49 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Whenever the govt takes over a decentralized, independent industry, it is always on the pretext of safety. What inevitably occurs is it places the industry in a chokehold that is only alleviated by money.

What is even more inevitable is the consolidation of this industry by corporations and franchises. They are the only ones with enough money to meet the "safety" standards.

This is the first step in the destruction of independent Mom-and-Pop organic farmers, and the advent of Wal-Farm and Monsanto Organics.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 2:51 AM

CANTTAKESKY

This is already what is happening, even without SB 510. The bill will just make it that much worse.

http://hartkeisonline.com/food-politics/family-farm-ordered-to-destroy
-50000-pounds-of-cheese/

Here is the video.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 3:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Surely you see the difference between, S. 510 giving the FDA the power to wipe out small farms and the totally fictional "death panels." Granted, S. 510 only grants them the power to wipe out small farming, doesn't mean they'd ever go and do such a thing.

Any evidence that S 510 is "...giving the FDA the power to wipe out small farms...", or at least giving them more power than they have now? Also, couldn't it be that small farms that don't meet food safety criteria actually need to be "wiped out", or at least brought into compliance?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 7:45 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Also, couldn't it be that small farms that don't meet food safety criteria actually need to be "wiped out", or at least brought into compliance?

Unbelievable. Yeah, it's the small organic farms that are killing people. Geez, no. It's the factory farms, GMO, Monsanto, and gorram China. It's also a lot of the same problem that created the Gulf disaster (anybody remember that?)--profiteering and cya corruption. Small farms got nothin' to do with that. What are you thinking?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 7:55 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I have not seen any published problems with small farms, nor accusations of any sort, in my local paper. I have not experienced any problems at my farmer's market associated with small farm products.

I once thought that laws came into being to address problems in society.

Now it seems to me that problems in society are contrived or imagined so that laws can come into being.

As a Libertarian, I disapprove of excessive meddling and bloated legislation.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 9:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Granted, S. 510 only grants them the power to wipe out small farming, doesn't mean they'd ever go and do such a thing.

Uhhhh...

Do I really even NEED to say it, HKCav, or should we just go straight to the facepalm here ?

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 9:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Yeah, it's the small organic farms that are killing people. Geez, no. It's the factory farms, GMO, Monsanto, and gorram China. It's also a lot of the same problem that created the Gulf disaster (anybody remember that?)--profiteering and cya corruption. Small farms got nothin' to do with that. What are you thinking?

I'm thinking there are probably some small farms that run with the same disregard for regulations and the safety of their products, and that they don't make the national news because they're not national or international businesses.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 10:44 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Anyone, have any reassuring words about this mess? Jesus, first they sign our lives over to the Insurance Co.'s and now they're gonna force organic farms out of business?

I'm so tired of being angry.

I'm all for putting organic farms out of business. Do you know how annoying it is to walk past all those organic fruits and vegatables to get to the real fruits and vegetables ten feet further down the aisle?

Thats valuable space my grocer could use to place the doughnuts closer to my cart.

Organic food is for crazytalking wheat grass smoothie types who think tofu is more appealing then angus beef.

Tonight I'm cooking up some pork butt steaks with bbq sauce and serving it with some bbq beans and creamy cole slaw before marinating the whole thing in my beer filled stomach and dedicating every bite to getting rid of the organic food section of my grocer.

Organic food is like the homosexual food group. Do what you want on your own plate...I have no problem with it as long as they don't try sticking their squash on my plate.

I note for the record that organic or not...I hate squash. Not just dislike and would not eat...more along the lines of get drunk and go out driving with other squash haters and if we pass a squash bar and see some squash walking down the street then we kick some squash ass. My mother made me eat squash, said 'how do you know you wont like it if you don't try it?' I tried it...and I know I don't like it and my mother is dead now. I bet you liberals like squash, well I'm putting you on notice. Don't. Serve. Me. Squash.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 10:59 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I'm thinking there are probably some small farms that run with the same disregard for regulations and the safety of their products, ...

Can you give me an example of how, say... a tomato from a small farm can be grown and sold with disregard for regulations and safety?

Let's imagine there exists such an evil tomato. Is it the job of the government to protect us from an evil tomato from a small farm? What is next? Evil dinners from your next door neighbors? Evil dinners from your own kitchen?

What if you show callous disregard for regulations and safety in your own kitchen? You made that evil egg sandwich after using the bathroom and washed your hands without soap! And then you fed it to your kids! Who shared it with the neighbor's kids! Should you be fined? Whether those kids got sick or not?

I mean, where do you draw the line on how much oversight and power the government should have?

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 11:51 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Can you give me an example of how, say... a tomato from a small farm can be grown and sold with disregard for regulations and safety?

How about a small farm that raises cows? The farmer mixes the waste products from the slaughter into the feed he gives his new cows, just like is daddy and grand-daddy did, including the nerve tissue and other matter that cause mad cow disease. He then takes his nice organic beef to the farmer's market and sells it to you. Yum.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 1:41 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
He then takes his nice organic beef to the farmer's market and sells it to you.

Indeed he can. That wouldn't be too far from the truth from what the govt DOES allow now.

First, his beef wouldn't be called "organic."

Second, anyone who buys meat from a local farmer without visiting the farm has got only himself/herself to blame. Meat is just tricky that way.

When I bought locally farmed beef, I always go to the farm and check it out first. I talk to the farmer/rancher. I ask questions and observe the cows. I make sure they are as happy as they can be before I eat it. Happy cows make safer and better beef.

But at any rate, it is MY responsibility as a consumer to check these things out to my satisfaction. Not the govts. I wouldn't trust the govts safety standards with a 10 foot pole.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 4:03 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Granted, S. 510 only grants them the power to wipe out small farming, doesn't mean they'd ever go and do such a thing.

Uhhhh...

Do I really even NEED to say it, HKCav, or should we just go straight to the facepalm here ?

-F

My irony not clear enough here? I was talking to Geezer, and the man knows from subtle, so I din't feel the need to wink.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 4:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I'm thinking there are probably some small farms that run with the same disregard for regulations and the safety of their products, and that they don't make the national news because they're not national or international businesses."

Hello,

It's true that there may be small farms who have created such a minor problem that they don't make the news.

I'll be interested in finding out more about this bill and how it will impact small business owners and independant growers.

Because law is crafted by politicians who are dependent on money (often from large businesses who naturally want to protect their interests), it is appropriate to be skeptical of new legislation of this type.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 5:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
First, his beef wouldn't be called "organic."

Sure it would. Farmer Brown stamped "Organic" on the label. If no one is checking, you have just his word for it.

Quote:
Second, anyone who buys meat from a local farmer without visiting the farm has got only himself/herself to blame. Meat is just tricky that way.

When I bought locally farmed beef, I always go to the farm and check it out first. I talk to the farmer/rancher. I ask questions and observe the cows. I make sure they are as happy as they can be before I eat it. Happy cows make safer and better beef.

But at any rate, it is MY responsibility as a consumer to check these things out to my satisfaction.

And if you live somewhere where you can't inspect the farm, whether it be Farmer Brown's cows or letuce or corn or tthe products of Massive Agro-Corp?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 6:03 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

My research thus far indicates that this bill does nothing to add to food safety. It does not seem to indicate additional inspections (which would be free to those inspected) but rather additional administrative processes.

It also enables the FDA to demand certain processes be used in farming. On the surface, this seems logical. However, there is nothing to keep the demands from being capricious or unfair.

(i.e. All farms must use the platinum confabulator, a machine which costs 1 million dollars.)

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 6:13 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
If no one is checking, you have just his word for it.

If no one is checking, it is a meaningless label. It can say, "Best beef in the world that hasn't been cannibally fed by carcasses of other beef." Yeah, whatever.

Quote:
And if you live somewhere where you can't inspect the farm, whether it be Farmer Brown's cows or letuce or corn or tthe products of Massive Agro-Corp?

Remember we are talking about small farmers here who need to be "checked up on" by Uncle Sam, right?

If you can't visit Farmer Brown's farm, don't buy from Farmer Brown. Buy from any number of mass produced agricultural products that are already "checked up on" by Uncle Sam.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 6:17 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
(i.e. All farms must use the platinum confabulator, a machine which costs 1 million dollars.)

These types of laws serve one purpose: to make sure the only ones who can afford to stay in business are the large corporations and their franchisees. That is what is inside the gift box. The outside reads, "Safety" or "Security."

Because they have found that people will put up with anything as long as the label says, "Safety" or "Security."

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
Everything I say is just my opinion and is not meant to be interpreted as fact.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 6:43 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Remember we are talking about small farmers here who need to be "checked up on" by Uncle Sam, right?

If you can't visit Farmer Brown's farm, don't buy from Farmer Brown. Buy from any number of mass produced agricultural products that are already "checked up on" by Uncle Sam.

Oh, Okay. If you can't visit the farm due to where you live, you don't deserve safe organic food. I see.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 6:59 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Oh, Okay. If you can't visit the farm due to where you live, you don't deserve safe organic food. I see.

I thought your point was that you don't know that Farmer Brown's was safe and organic without the govt checking it.

So to rephrase for accuracy, if you can't visit the farm due to where you live, you don't deserve food from that farm.

The alternative is get feedback and reviews from current and past customers. The point is, it is up to the consumer to check these things out--not the government.

There are plenty of "safe, organic food" that are produced by large farms complying with regulations. Buy those.

--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 6:59 PM

LILI

Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
It's true that there may be small farms who have created such a minor problem that they don't make the news.

Yeah, just like the supplements that cause three deaths from abuse or overdose being pulled off the market, while medications that cause hundreds of deaths from abuse or overdose don't seem to make a blip on the radar. Or even more on-point, does anyone remember Odwalla? They were nearly driven out of business over one batch of contaminated juice. Larger food companies issue an apology and possibly a recall, and they're never blamed for the contamination (though the farmers might be.)
I'm sorry if it sounds paranoid or conspiracy theorist of me, but companies outside the mainstream are targeted way harder than others, if one pays attention.

And by the way, the organic label is already heavily regulated. If you're found putting it on food that isn't certified, it goes badly for you.

Facts are stubborn things.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 8:30 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

The organic label is indeed strictly regulated. There is a local dairy farm that delivers my milk and cream. Their cows are pasture-fed, they apply no pesticides, use no hormones, etc. They say on their website that this is so, but they don't use the word 'organic' because to use that they need to go through an expensive certification process, which they are working toward. And I know this because I talked to them before I started ordering their milk. They follow the organic process but they haven't been able to afford the certification so they don't use the organic label.

It's the best milk I've ever had. It's profoundly delicious. They have happy, healthy cows, eating what cows should be eating. They're doing something right, and I don't ever want them to change. I hope they can grow their business and get certified, but I hope they never change.

Just because something can't be explained doesn't mean it becomes yours.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 9, 2010 6:20 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
The organic label is indeed strictly regulated.

Thank you for making this argument.

When I argued with Geezer, I was going with his premises that "no one is checking." For the sake of argument, even if no one is checking, then check it out yourself....

I am not very knowledgeable about organic labeling regulations. But I do know what you are saying. A lot of farmers I bought from (and visited) cannot label themselves as organic, even though they farm using natural, kind, and non-toxic methods.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 9, 2010 1:43 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I thought your point was that you don't know that Farmer Brown's was safe and organic without the govt checking it.

Safe, anyway. He could stamp his meat "Small Farm Raised" instead of "Organic" and still be selling unhealthy product.

BTW, I'd be interested in finding out where you learned how to perform the required inspections and analysis to verify that the small farms you visit are actually selling safe food? Looking at contented cows in green fields doesn't tell you what they're being fed, and the farmer could be 'exaggerating' his claims for care you can't monitor in a short visit.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, December 9, 2010 2:00 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Safe, anyway. He could stamp his meat "Small Farm Raised" instead of "Organic" and still be selling unhealthy product.

Yes, he could. You know what happens then? Someone gets sick. Someone else gets sick. Word gets around, and Farmer Brown can't find customers anymore.

Quote:
BTW, I'd be interested in finding out where you learned how to perform the required inspections and analysis to verify that the small farms you visit are actually selling safe food? Looking at contented cows in green fields doesn't tell you what they're being fed, and the farmer could be 'exaggerating' his claims for care you can't monitor in a short visit.

True. But if that were the case, the farmer can lie to the inspector as well. We're in the same boat of trusting limited amounts of data, some objective and some self-reported, gathered in short visits.

I check things out to MY satisfaction--because I am the one eating the beef. I may be satisfied or dissatisfied in a different way from another consumer. But my opinion affects only me. Why shouldn't I have the freedom to decide what I want to buy and what is good enough for me?

You know I live in a country where there are no health inspections or food permits or any such thing. People sell food from their own kitchens all the time. Jello, ice, desserts, snacks, meals, lemonade. It is not unlike the way America used to be. You know what? People aren't dropping like flies without this govt oversight.

Govt oversight is more meaningful in large operations where one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. The mom-and-pop backyard garden? It needs as much regulation as your own kitchen.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER

POST DATE