Our one true enemy: Death by pizmobeach

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I often lament my upcoming death. I think, "Everything I am, and everything I ever was, may cease to be." For while I am a Christian, I do have my doubts. I do not have the gift of believing with perfect certainty absent of proof.

But when I lament the possible loss of me, I also think, "That's terribly conceited. Why are you so important?" ;-)

That is a conundrum isn't it: we have hard-wired extreme self-preservation code, "fire > danger" and will do almost anything to protect our self, some people will even sell out their greatest beliefs for a few more hours on earth.
So we're built on the most fundamental level to defy the inevitable, to fight a losing battle.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 8:32 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Pffth, if the Reaper wants me, that fuckers gonna have to CATCH me, and I been beatin his ass for years.

Sure, eventually that's gonna happen, and prolly in a fashion either ridiculously mundane, plain cheap, or goin down swingin over a point no one else'd even debate, but I chose my legacy well - wanted to leave something other than the sum of our failures for future generations, and passed the torch into very capable hands a while back anyways.

Hell, in fact I made sure early on that if I ever fell that other hands would take up the work, and/or the identity itself, I am not the first Fremdfirma, nor even likely the second, although I did take things to a wider scale and new direction - and ever since initially entering what was at the time a damn near terminally dangerous course of action to begin with one might say I've made my peace with the idea long and long ago, certainly the fear of ending hasn't had much if any impact on my actions - either that or imma lunatic, either way, it doesn't bother me.

As for what happens after, well, that's after - I can just see staging a revolt in whatever counts for purgatory against an unjust divinity, since if there is a hell they'd bar the doors in fear of a coup...

For mine own I suspect Valhalla is my eventual destination, at the hands of a very irritated Valkyrie, no doubt pissed at me for making passes at her, I am who I am, yanno.

There is one last thing I wanna do in this life, though, I wanna see that ratbastard Kissinger take a dirt nap, cause I'll feel all manner of better to know for certain he's roasting in his judeo-christian hell instead of trying to make our world into one.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 8:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I long ago decided if I die tomorrow, I have no regrets. I've had a damned good life; I've experienced things many have never had the opportunity to experience, and I certainly can't complain about where I am now (tho' I do anyway).

I don't intend to be here into dependent old age, certainly; we'll see how "successful" I am. But given my good life, and the fact that I've no family and few close friends to be around when I'm truly old, and wouldn't be able to keep a dog (and I can't imagine living without a dog!), I see no reason to hang around. I wouldn't do anything until Jim and the huskies are gone (given I think they're the last dogs I'll ever have), it would cause too much grief. But given he's ten years older than me and women usually live longer, I don't think that will be a problem.

Since I'm buddhist, supposedly I'll be back anyway, but I'm on the fence about that one, just as you are about heaven. I certainly don't believe in any kind of "afterlife". Supposedly this life is to teach me, and whether I learned or not would determine what I come back as. I've learned a LOT, and have grown and changed in this life; maybe I'd come back as someone/something neat, who knows? But I DO accept our belief that it's the journey, not the end result, which is important, and I'm grateful for all I've learned and that I've been able to become at least as self-aware as I am.

One of the people on the board I run has been trying to commit suicide, thus far unsuccessfully. He's not faking it; his brother tried and ended up in hospital with permanent damage and he's ended up hospitalized twice already from his own attempts. They're Greek, and our guy has been miserable for as long as I've known him (ten-plus years), but he's also had high points. Unfortunately, he bases his quality of life on whether he's got a mate or not, and his desperation ends up driving potential mates away, so it's a self-defeating cycle. We long ago gave up trying to get him to see life is more than that and realized all we can do is give him support; it's his life to live or not. But I think it's very sad when someone doesn't want to live any longer; if there's no tomorrow, there's no chance things can improve.

I tried in my teen years, also unsuccessfully, and am damned glad I was and had the chance to live the rest of my life!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 8:49 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Death comes to us all.

So, when you die, 1 of 2 things happen.

1. You cease to exist. Nothingness. You wont even know what happened, what is happening, what is or what is not. Ever had a sleep where you had no dreams? Thats it. You cease to be. No thoughts, no dreams, no nothing.

If thats the case, why worry about it? You are done and gone. Your individual essence is finished. Nothing to fear, really.

2. There IS an afterlife. In most cases and most beliefs, you are judged. For what you have done, and more importantly, what you HAVE NOT DONE. How you are found is how you will live next.

What scares me the most is reincarnation. Maybe, for every harm you've done a person, you must live their life? Or, you could be brought back as a bug? Who wants to be a bug?

There is a 3rd option. One that I find comforting.

You die, and yes there is an afterlife. (Energy never ends, its just transferred... for our atheistic friends)

In this after-life, the evil in you is washed away. You are left only with the good that is in you. (yes its crunchy and granola... sue me)

The best things about you, the best you ever wanted to be.

You are alive in this other existence, with a purpose and a job to do. Because, really, living in a perfect body forever with anything you want would get old after a while...

Like the Marines say "No marine ever really dies, they just go to guard the gates of Heaven."

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm old enough to have seen my dad, my grandma, and my MIL die. What used to surprise me, when I was a child, was to hear older people talk about death as a welcome release. And as I get older and more tired, I begin to see what they were talking about.

I fear disability more than death. I'm all about "doing". When I can no longer "do", when my horizon shrinks to my meals and my bowel movements, I think I will welcome death.

The only thing I fear about dying is no longer being there for our daughter.

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:29 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

And Sig goes up on my respect scale.

Most of us, for those of us that are actually human (and not sociopathic), the thing that scares us about death is our responsibilities.

That we won't be there to make sure that things are ok for those we love.

For me, its my wife. But, I've made sure that she will be financially cared for. The rest is up to her. But shes a strong girl, smart too. I have no worries.

Besides, she might be better off than to have me constantly screaming aboout things anyways. :)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:38 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Pffth, if the Reaper wants me, that fuckers gonna have to CATCH me, and I been beatin his ass for years.

The Reaper only laughs at your words! By noon this day he's already caught and snuffed out 75,000 souls, some with tougher hides than yours (well, maybe there will be some tougher ones in the afternoon).

It brings to mind some famous defiant gallows speeches...

"You are going to hurt me, please don't hurt me, just one more moment, I beg you!"
Guillotined.
~~ Madame du Barry, mistress of Louis XV, d. 1793

"Take a step forward, lads. It will be easier that way."
Executed by firing squad.
~~ Erskine Childers, Irish patriot, d. November 24, 1922

"You sons of bitches. Give my love to Mother."
Executed in electric chair.
~~ Francis "Two Gun" Crowley, d. 1931

"Hurrah for anarchy! This is the happiest moment of my life."
Last words on the gallows.
~~ George Engel
(He was one of four executed after the 1886 Haymarket bombing in Chicago)

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:41 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Come on, you sons of bitches, do you want to live forever?" - Daniel Daly

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:52 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I long ago decided if I die tomorrow, I have no regrets. I've had a damned good life; I've experienced things many have never had the opportunity to experience, and I certainly can't complain about where I am now (tho' I do anyway).

I don't intend to be here into dependent old age, certainly; we'll see how "successful" I am. But given my good life, and the fact that I've no family and few close friends to be around when I'm truly old, and wouldn't be able to keep a dog (and I can't imagine living without a dog!), I see no reason to hang around. I wouldn't do anything until Jim and the huskies are gone (given I think they're the last dogs I'll ever have), it would cause too much grief. But given he's ten years older than me and women usually live longer, I don't think that will be a problem.

Since I'm buddhist, supposedly I'll be back anyway, but I'm on the fence about that one, just as you are about heaven. I certainly don't believe in any kind of "afterlife". Supposedly this life is to teach me, and whether I learned or not would determine what I come back as. I've learned a LOT, and have grown and changed in this life; maybe I'd come back as someone/something neat, who knows? But I DO accept our belief that it's the journey, not the end result, which is important, and I'm grateful for all I've learned and that I've been able to become at least as self-aware as I am.

It's good you feel that way Niki, it seems like the best, healthiest way our society feels in general in terms of coming to grips with, and accepting death.
One of my questions is why do we start from that acceptance of death and then find out how to make that ok, "I've done a lot" "there might be an after life" "my children will carry on." Why don't we question that it is the way it has to be?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 10:23 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

This is why Piz.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18708_5-reasons-immortality-would-be-wo
rse-than-death.html

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 10:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

: /

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 10:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sig, you said how I feel:

Quote:
When I can no longer "do", when my horizon shrinks to my meals and my bowel movements, I think I will welcome death.

And I, too, hope I don't go while Jim and the huskies are still alive...they're the only ones who will hurt if I do (and I can't imagine saddling Jim with the guys, for either of their souls!).

I don't feel responsible for anyone else, given I have no family, and I know I've helped as well as educated some in the mental health community, helped save many animals in rehab, taken in and cared for a mother I hated for three years, helped people and animals I've encountered who needed it, and made Jim happy. That's enough "doing" for me.

Pizmo, that's the only way I can conceive of looking at it; the worrying about being judged seems a waste of time if we know we've done the best we could. My mother was terrified of death, I know she was afraid of how she'd be judged, and it seems people who've been awful are those who fear death the most as it gets closer, not surprisingly. She fought to the very end, and ignored me by her bedside the whole time, just hanging on with all her might NOT to face judgment she knew was coming.

Oh, and yes, you might come back as a bug if you were truly horrific, but you can't come back with someone else's life; lives supposedly are to teach us what we didn't learn in the previous one. So someone who screwed others might come back as the "screwee" their whole life; someone who was selfless come back to an easy life with other lessons to learn; someone who never helped others come back as one needing help; etc. I learned patience (or more than I ad anyway), to try to be self-aware, to give back (and yes it IS "give back", not as someone earlier insisted, that there's no giving back for what one fairly earned), some acceptance, and lots more. Maybe I'll be lucky; maybe I had it too easy and will have to learn a whole lot more, who knows? IF reincarnation exists.

I like the idea of it not just "ending", but it's hard for me to accept; it's just not logical to me, as it doesn't seem to me nature works that way, and I have no "god" over me to decide. Hence I question reincarnation.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 2:20 PM

CANTTAKESKY

I think, yes, we will all die. But I don't accept that we all have to die this soon. I think there is no reason why we all shouldn't live double the lifespans we do now, and am all for developing the technology to make it happen. Health research, to me, is a priority.

I'll probably die before I make any headway in it. But I'll die trying.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 4:41 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Pizmo, that's the only way I can conceive of looking at it; the worrying about being judged seems a waste of time if we know we've done the best we could. My mother was terrified of death, I know she was afraid of how she'd be judged, and it seems people who've been awful are those who fear death the most as it gets closer, not surprisingly. She fought to the very end, and ignored me by her bedside the whole time, just hanging on with all her might NOT to face judgment she knew was coming.

Sorry to hear that, another reason to shun religion imho. No, I'm not thinking about any after life guesses. We've been dying on this planet for how long and we still have no clue (which is a clue in itself), so I don't waste any time on it or fear it in any way. "Being judged?" If that were the case and to borrow from Frem's book, "who the f*ck are they to judge me?" Promises of an after life do seem to get perverted and manipulated by man more often than not though don't they?

I'm more interested in not thinking of death as the accepted end of life, or at least in thinking of it differently. Consider it an exercise in speculative scifi with scientific roots (yes, I know I'm reaching).

Other laws of nature seem to follow a pretty understandable set of measurable and definable mathematical rules - Gravity works because of A, photosynthesis because of B, etc, it's only when you come to death that we need metaphysical or spiritual reasons to explain it. At the beginning of our lives we generate new tissue and essentially grow a new body. > At some point < the instructions change and we seem to go to one of maintenance until the parts wear out. Why? Why do we reach maturity when we do - how is that set?

So not really immortality - that's "I grant you 3 wishes" stuff - more like CTS mentions, real science.

For anyone interested, a quick google search: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2003/09/closing-in-on-the-cure-for-
death.php

Of course, my first instinct when I find these kind of sites is "scam: how much do they want?" And this site is certainly happy to accommodate your donations, but there is a wealth of real science about the subject listed for anyone who is curious.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 7:08 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I have read that cartilage continues to grow throughout our lives. So if they ever cured death, we would need to figure out something to do with our oversized ears and noses. Perhaps advanced cosmetic surgery would be performed every 50 years to keep us 'trim.'

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:13 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I have read that cartilage continues to grow throughout our lives. So if they ever cured death, we would need to figure out something to do with our oversized ears and noses. Perhaps advanced cosmetic surgery would be performed every 50 years to keep us 'trim.'

Er, that's somewhat unsettling... I give you the future!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:24 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm sure that "they" (you know, the always-quoted "they") will figure out a way to end death. I believe they have already mapped out many of the basic components of death. So if you don't mind a layman's explanation:

Each of our cells contains all of the instructions necessary to make another living, breathing human being genetically identical to us. Well, almost identical. Changes might occur in some cells to nuclear DNA over time, and each cell is prolly a little different from its neighboring cells in the amount and mix of mitochondrial DNA. But for the purposes of the discussion, just hang on to the idea that each cell is a genetically complete package.

But our differentiated cells only have a finite number of divisions before they stop dividing. For skin cells, it's about eight divisions. That's because nuclear chromosones (DNA) are "capped" at each end by telomeres... kind of like the end of a shoelace which keeps it from raveling. A bit of telomere is lost each time the cell divides, and when the telomeres are lost... POOF!

BUT, you might think, if we are limited to the number of divisions, why don't we all die when we're five years old?

That's where stem cells come in.

Stem cells have the handy-dandy feature of not being as limited as fully-differentiated cells. If our stem cells could keep on popping out fresh new cells whenever our tissues needed a boost, we would never age. Cell gain would equal cells loss. But even stem cells have their limit. Like all cells, they sustain nuclear damage over time. The telomere function is to limit the number of division possible over time, thereby limiting the number of possible cancers and other aberrant growths.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC311439/

There is one other factor to consider, and that is that cells have a DNA repair function. Its kind of like repairing a zipper by using the undamaged side of the zipper as a template for the damaged side. While humans are not particularly robust at repairing DNA, there are some bacteria which are SO good they can repair multiple double-stranded breaks.

If science can find a way to accelerate DNA repair, and either restore telomeres or disable their function so cells could keep dividing ad-infinitum, we would be able to rejuvenate indefinitely.

This is all possible and within the realm of science. However, the treatment is likely to be intensive and expensive, and therefore reserved for the very rich. After all, poor people don't even get diabetes treatment, so if we carry on our current economic/ social paradigm, we will simply get more of the same, just with fancier technology. Kind of like having a war with nuclear weapons.

ETA: In other words, don't expect this new technology to introduce a wonderful new world. It'll be the same old world, only more so.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 6:34 PM

DREAMTROVE

im with pizmo. and cts on this one. fourteen months is not enough time for this planet

it surprises me how many people haven't or won't think about this. it goes far to explain why we fail and how easily we are enslaved

kudos to rap tho for the appropriate buff quote

also. galaxy tab is no ipad. this think needs some serious tweaking

hopefully thats easier to do with android.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 6:41 PM

DREAMTROVE

Sig

good points. but DNA contains 72 telomeres

im.pretty sure if your cells divided to two to the power of 72. it would reach a mass of somewhere around a billion tons

just a thought

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:27 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I tried looking up 72 human telomeres, and can find no substantiating information. Not sure that there is such as thing as "a" telomere anyway bc the DNA loses a variable amount of base pairs with each replication. But I DID find out a lot more about telomeres, and because of that I feel a lot more confident that the "problem" of dying will be solved in the next 50 years, assuming our advanced technology society is around that long.

Too bad we don't use our big brains in the interest of species survival instead of individual immortality.

Anyway. Since the enemies of DNA stability and protein function are sugar, free radical oxygen, and glycosylation, and chemical or radiation exposure, I believe the answer to long life is (a) be born from the right parents with a good set of genes,
(b) limit the amount of sugar and carbohydrates specifically and calories in general (sugar opens up the DNA for replication, has to do with sirtuin... a long an complicated story, but each person is geared towards EITHER long life or reproduction. reproduction only happens in the presence of ample food)
(c) eat natural foods rich in antioxidants
(d) cook you food over low heat to avoid glycosylating the proteins and forming advanced glycolsylation endproducts (AGE)
(e) avoid chemical and radiation exposure.

And of course, don't get into arguments with people who are carrying a gun or knife, and buckle up.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:35 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Too bad we don't use our big brains in the interest of species survival instead of individual immortality.

Technology is technology. Politics makes it either individual or collective.

It is perfectly fine to work on technological questions regardless of how politics will distribute that technology.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:37 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
ETA: In other words, don't expect this new technology to introduce a wonderful new world. It'll be the same old world, only more so.

Thx for all of that SignyM - very interesting.

I hear what you said too about aging and quality of life concerns = my own family's recent history.

That link, zoiks, that's a challenging read! (I took the equivalent of advanced finger painting in school). What I'm taking away so far though is one of the big challenges is that what our body does to protect us from cancer has aging as a side effect. Ironical to say the least.

"In addition to preventing cancer, however, telomere-mediated checkpoints appear to contribute to aging, and, as stated, mice with shortened, dysfunctional telomeres exhibit many characteristics of premature aging."

It's amazing how different things are when you look at it from that perspective. To me it's bacon, but to my body it's something else completely - or does what we ingest (food-wise) have any effect on this level? Chemical toxins I would guess the answer is overwhelmingly "yes."

Good to know: "A recent study of Americans receiving Medicare support estimated the entire future lifetime health-related costs of the average healthy 70-year-old to be approximately $150,000 per individual (122), and the aggregate cost of this health burden will only grow larger as increasing numbers of Americans age and retire."

Ok, done-ish, sorry that there wasn't any summation, "Tips for preventing telomere dysfunction" or some such - still, very intriguing, thx again.

ETA: just seeing your post from today, reading now.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:38 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Funny thing is, tho... "technology" advancement seems to be geared towards money. That's why pharmas invest billions in erectile dysfunction drugs and nothing in anti-malarials. The advance doesn't happen equally on all fronts, and especially not in the direction that would do away with oligarchs.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:08 AM