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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
The rich get richer and the rest get 'let them eat cake'
Saturday, December 25, 2010 4:05 AM
KANEMAN
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Quote:Hell no, it's not even remotely close. Not even remotely close to being fair? Or not even remotely close to being fact? Let me re-phrase the question: ASSUMING THAT IT IS TRUE that the very wealthy and corporations pay less tax by percentage than the middle class, would it be fair? Just asking for your opinion, not for your agreement.
Quote:Hell no, it's not even remotely close.
Saturday, December 25, 2010 7:44 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Sunday, December 26, 2010 3:22 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Sunday, December 26, 2010 9:35 AM
Sunday, December 26, 2010 11:37 AM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:...including skirting and breaking the law in some cases.
Sunday, December 26, 2010 11:48 AM
Sunday, December 26, 2010 1:14 PM
Monday, December 27, 2010 3:56 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: ASSUMING THAT IT IS TRUE that the very wealthy and corporations pay less tax by percentage than the middle class, would it be fair? Just asking for your opinion, not for your agreement.
Monday, December 27, 2010 5:29 AM
Monday, December 27, 2010 5:57 AM
Monday, December 27, 2010 8:32 AM
Monday, December 27, 2010 8:58 AM
Quote:Social security payments: They make up 20% of the budget, are dependent on income---if you've put more into the system, you get higher payments when you retire. Investments in the nation's infrastructure: Transportation, education, research & development, energy, police subsidies, the courts, etc.---again are more useful the more you have. The interstates and airports benefit interstate commerce and people who can travel, not ghetto dwellers. Energy is used disproportionately by the rich and by industry. As for public education, the better public schools are the ones attended by the well off. The very well off ship their offspring off to private schools; but it is their companies that benefit from a well-educated public. The FDIC and the S&L bailout: Oviously benefit investors and large depositors. A neat example: a smooth operator bought a failing S&L for $350 million, then received $2 billion from the government to help resurrect it. Subsidies: Subsidies to agribusiness ($18 billion a year), to export companies, to maritime shippers, and to various industries--airlines, nuclear power companies, timber companies, mining companies, automakers, drug companies. Accelerated depreciation: It alone, for instance, is estimated to cost the Treasury $37 billion a year--billions more than the mortgage interest deduction
Quote:In America we actually have far more entitlement programs for the rich than for the poor: Capital Gains Tax: The capital gains tax benefits the rich far more than the middle class and the poor. Rich people who own tens of millions in stock and other assets like real estate can sell these assets and they only pay 15% on their gain. Social Security Tax: The top 1% who own 50% of all financial assets and make 25% of all income pay the tax on about 1% of their wages while the middle class and the poor pay the tax on 100%, all their wages Medicare: Everyone pays the same Medicare premiums, rich and poor. Yet Medicare provided over $100 billion in payments to people who are rich. These people had heart operations, and other operations and the taxpayers paid the bill. Income tax deductions: For most Americans the deductions they are allowed are few because they don’t qualify for them. On the other hand the rich can deduct much of what they buy. Infrastructure: If you own a jet airplane you can land it on a public runway at a public taxpayer funded airport and the taxpayer will pay the fees. When one of the billionaires flies into an airport, taxpayers pay for their landing and other services. Profit which go overseas: The IRS allows over 300,000 rich Americans to avoid paying taxes by keeping their wages and profits in Swiss banks. The IRS estimates that they lose over $100 billion each year in taxes to this scheme. Of course if you are a middle-class worker with wage in the US it is difficult to take advantage of this entitlement
Monday, December 27, 2010 9:06 AM
Quote: Would it be fair for the top 400 AND CORPORATIONS to pay less as a percentage than the middle class?
Monday, December 27, 2010 9:16 AM
Monday, December 27, 2010 9:47 AM
Monday, December 27, 2010 9:51 AM
Quote:Less of a % of their income tax ?
Monday, December 27, 2010 9:56 AM
Monday, December 27, 2010 10:42 AM
Monday, December 27, 2010 12:28 PM
Monday, December 27, 2010 6:37 PM
Tuesday, December 28, 2010 7:41 AM
Tuesday, December 28, 2010 8:08 AM
Quote:However, what is not analyzed in the statement is the types of income each person is making. Buffett's secretary is paying taxes on income which come to her in a regular paycheck in exchange for being employed. Buffett's income is in the form of gains he earns from buying and selling stock. The key difference is that a capital gain is not as guaranteed as income from employment. This investment could fall in value or gain nothing, leaving the investor looking for other means of income. Currently, capital gains are taxed at 15% Buffett's secretary only needs to remain employed to earn her income. Buffett made the false comparison because he is such a good investor that his capital gains and dividend related income is as safe as an average person's income from labor.
Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:58 PM
CANTTAKESKY
Quote:Now we are told that we will soon receive a large tax cut for all our troubles. What is the word for the feeling this provokes in me? Imagine being safely seated in lifeboat, while countless others drown, only to learn that another lifeboat has been secured to take your luggage to shore...
Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:40 AM
Quote:Most Americans believe that a person should enjoy the full fruits of his or her labors, however abundant. In this light, taxation tends to be seen as an intrinsic evil. It is worth noting, however, that throughout the 1950's--a decade for which American conservatives pretend to feel a harrowing sense of nostalgia--the marginal tax rate for the wealthy was over 90 percent. In fact, prior to the 1980's it never dipped below 70 percent. Since 1982, however, it has come down by half. In the meantime, the average net worth of the richest 1 percent of Americans has doubled (to $18.5 million), while that of the poorest 40 percent has fallen by 63 percent (to $2,200). Thirty years ago, top U.S. executives made about 50 times the salary of their average employees. In 2007, the average worker would have had to toil for 1,100 years to earn what his CEO brought home between Christmas in Aspen and Christmas on St. Barthes. We now live in a country in which the bottom 40 percent (120 million people) owns just 0.3 percent of the wealth. Data of this kind make one feel that one is participating in a vast psychological experiment: Just how much inequality can free people endure? Have you seen Ralph Lauren's car collection? Yes, it is beautiful. It also cost hundreds of millions of dollars. "So what?" many people will say. "It's his money. He earned it. He should be able to do whatever he wants with it." In conservative circles, expressing any doubt on this point has long been synonymous with Marxism. And yet over one million American children are now homeless. People on Medicare are being denied life-saving organ transplants that were routinely covered before the recession. Over one quarter of our nation's bridges are structurally deficient. It is easy to understand why even the most generous person might be averse to paying taxes: Our legislative process has been hostage to short-term political interests and other perverse incentives for as long as anyone can remember. Consequently, our government wastes an extraordinary amount of money. It also seems uncontroversial to say that whatever can be best accomplished in the private sector should be. Our tax code must also be reformed--and it might even be true that the income tax should be lowered on everyone, provided we find a better source of revenue to pay our bills. But I can't imagine that anyone seriously believes that the current level of wealth inequality in the United States is good and worth maintaining, or that our government's first priority should be to spare a privileged person like myself the slightest hardship as this once great nation falls into ruin. And the ruination of the United States really does seem possible. It has been widely reported, for instance, that students in Shanghai far surpass our own in science, reading, and math. In fact, when compared to other countries, American students are now disconcertingly average (slightly below in math), where the average includes utopias like Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, Albania, Kazakhstan, and Indonesia. President Obama was right to recognize this as a "Sputnik moment." But it is worse than that. This story was immediately followed by a report about giddy Creationists in the state of Kentucky being offered $40 million in tax subsidies to produce a full-scale model of Noah's ark. More horrible still, this ludicrous use of public money is probably a wise investment, given that such a monument to scientific ignorance will be guaranteed to attract an ovine influx of Christian tourists from neighboring states. Seeing facts of this kind, juxtaposed without irony or remedy at this dire moment in history, it is hard not to feel that one is witnessing America's irreversible decline. Needless to say, most Americans have no choice but to send their children to terrible schools--where they will learn the lesser part of nothing and emerge already beggared by a national debt now on course to reach $20 trillion. And yet Republicans in every state can successfully campaign on a promise to spend less on luxuries like education, while delivering tax cuts to people who, if asked to guess their own net worth, could not come within $10 million of the correct figure if their lives depended on it. American opposition to the "redistribution of wealth" has achieved the luster of a religious creed. And, as with all religions, one finds the faithful witlessly espousing doctrines that harm almost everyone, including their own children. For instance, while most Americans have no chance of earning or inheriting significant wealth, 68 percent want the estate tax eliminated (and 31 percent consider it to be the "worst" and "least fair" tax levied by the federal government). Most believe that limiting this tax, which affects only 0.2 percent of the population, should be the top priority of the current Congress. The truth, however, is that everyone must favor the "redistribution of wealth" at some point. This relates directly to the issue of education: as the necessity of doing boring and dangerous work disappears--whether because we have built better machines and infrastructure, or shipped our least desirable jobs overseas--people need to be better educated so that they can apply themselves to more interesting work. Who will pay for this? There is only one group of people who can pay for anything at this point: the wealthy. To make matters more difficult, Americans have made a religious fetish of something called "self-reliance." Most seem to think that while a person may not be responsible for the opportunities he gets in life, each is entirely responsible for what he makes of these opportunities. This is, without question, a false view of the human condition. Consider the biography of any "self-made" American, from Benjamin Franklin on down, and you will find that his success was entirely dependent on background conditions that he did not make, and of which he was a mere beneficiary. There is not a person on earth who chose his genome, or the country of his birth, or the political and economic conditions that prevailed at moments crucial to his progress. Consequently, no one is responsible for his intelligence, range of talents, or ability to do productive work. If you have struggled to make the most of what Nature gave you, you must still admit that Nature also gave you the ability and inclination to struggle. How much credit do I deserve for not having Down syndrome or any other disorder that would make my current work impossible? None whatsoever. And yet devotees of self-reliance rail against those who would receive entitlements of various sorts--health care, education, etc.--while feeling unselfconsciously entitled to their relative good fortune. Yes, we must encourage people to work to the best of their abilities and discourage free riders wherever we can--but it seems only decent at this moment to admit how much luck is required to succeed at anything in this life. Those who have been especially lucky--the smart, well-connected, and rich--should count their blessings, and then share some of these blessings with the rest of society. The wealthiest Americans often live as though they and their children had nothing to gain from investments in education, infrastructure, clean-energy, and scientific research. For instance, the billionaire Steve Ballmer, CEO of Microsoft, recently helped kill a proposition that would have created an income tax for the richest 1 percent in Washington (one of seven states that has no personal income tax). All of these funds would have gone to improve his state's failing schools. What kind of society does Ballmer want to live in--one that is teeming with poor, uneducated people? Who does he expect to buy his products? Where will he find his next batch of software engineers? Perhaps Ballmer is simply worried that the government will spend his money badly--after all, we currently spend more than almost every other country on education, with abysmal results. Well, then he should say so--and rather than devote hundreds of thousands of dollars to stoking anti-tax paranoia in his state, he should direct some of his vast wealth toward improving education, like his colleague Bill Gates has begun to do.
Saturday, January 1, 2011 5:54 AM
BIGDAMNNOBODY
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Would it be fair for the top 400 AND CORPORATIONS to pay less as a percentage than the middle class? Yes or no? Simple answer, no weaseling please. We can address the premises later.
Saturday, January 1, 2011 6:36 AM
DREAMTROVE
Saturday, January 1, 2011 6:58 AM
Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: 2) since weve already established that 90% of fed tax goes to mil or paramil. then if you want to zee this increased see point one above]
Saturday, January 1, 2011 12:03 PM
Saturday, January 1, 2011 12:58 PM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Quote:To make matters more difficult, Americans have made a religious fetish of something called "self-reliance." Most seem to think that while a person may not be responsible for the opportunities he gets in life, each is entirely responsible for what he makes of these opportunities. This is, without question, a false view of the human condition. Consider the biography of any "self-made" American, from Benjamin Franklin on down, and you will find that his success was entirely dependent on background conditions that he did not make, and of which he was a mere beneficiary. There is not a person on earth who chose his genome, or the country of his birth, or the political and economic conditions that prevailed at moments crucial to his progress. Consequently, no one is responsible for his intelligence, range of talents, or ability to do productive work. If you have struggled to make the most of what Nature gave you, you must still admit that Nature also gave you the ability and inclination to struggle. How much credit do I deserve for not having Down syndrome or any other disorder that would make my current work impossible? None whatsoever. And yet devotees of self-reliance rail against those who would receive entitlements of various sorts--health care, education, etc.--while feeling unselfconsciously entitled to their relative good fortune. Yes, we must encourage people to work to the best of their abilities and discourage free riders wherever we can--but it seems only decent at this moment to admit how much luck is required to succeed at anything in this life. Those who have been especially lucky--the smart, well-connected, and rich--should count their blessings, and then share some of these blessings with the rest of society.
Saturday, January 1, 2011 4:24 PM
Saturday, January 1, 2011 4:39 PM
Quote:mobility is a flawed theory because a simple study of the self made shows that they had no end of powerful personal connections, and most importantly, did not have to work for a living and so had unlimited free time.
Saturday, January 1, 2011 6:40 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: BigDamn. Yes. Next question?
Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:43 PM
Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: Mobility is an illusion. like democracy. while i disagree that being born into a country like the USA is an advantage over being born in China, and i would place that 98% as very high unless youre very wealthy (id say that being born poor in america is worse than being born poor in a poor nation) i agree with the principle. id say maybe 20% of the population is born unlucy. particularly those born into high disease areas,or born with major disabilities, but i dont think these are the obstackes to mobility mobility is a flawed theory because a simple study of the self made shows that they had no end of powerful personal connections, and most importantly, did not have to work for a living and so had unlimited free time.
Sunday, January 2, 2011 2:22 AM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 2:42 AM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 3:48 AM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 8:44 AM
Quote: mobility is a flawed theory because a simple study of the self made shows that they had no end of powerful personal connections, and most importantly, did not have to work for a living and so had unlimited free time.
Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:03 AM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:34 AM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 10:46 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Why do we live together in such large groups...
Sunday, January 2, 2011 12:18 PM
Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: qymagon, interesting point on mobility. that will require some thoght sig you should abandon this dichotomy. there are many systems in theworld for govt and economy, and will be many more. socialism will always fail to get mainstream support, not because it is a terrible system. many terrible systems get support. it will fail because socialists have killed more than a quarter billion people. for me, on both sides of my family. statistically, this will be true for.much if not most of the planet. at some point try asking a russian, eastern european or chinese person what they think. seems no one who has lived under socialism is too fond, only some elitists in the academic west who seem to like the idea of a ruling elite, as long as they are in it.
Sunday, January 2, 2011 1:35 PM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 1:36 PM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 2:12 PM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 3:40 PM
TWO
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/dec2010/pi20101215_516004.htm It's a Great Time to Be Rich If the tax cuts become law, the next two years will be the best in living memory for many wealthy Americans to shield their income and fortunes Under legislation approved by the U.S. Senate on Wednesday, Dec. 15, and now moving on to the House, savvy wealthy Americans would be able to capitalize on an environment in which their TAX RATES IN INCOME AND INVESTMENTS REMAIN AT HISTORIC LOWS. (emphasis mine) Also, new rules would make it possible to pass on fortunes to heirs with less fuss and lower taxes than all but a brief period of the past 80 years. "The climate we'll have after this legislation is extremely favorable for wealthy families," says Jeffrey Cooper, a professor at Quinnipiac University School of Law and a former estate planner who has studied the history of U.S. tax law.
Sunday, January 2, 2011 4:09 PM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 4:11 PM
Sunday, January 2, 2011 5:11 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: TWO: Interesting. I've sensed this for many years, but you say this as if this is common knowledge. Do you have any references?
Sunday, January 2, 2011 7:20 PM
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