.................................................. by Wulfenstar

Very sad. I wonder if his life might have been happier if he had gotten over his mistrust of doctors and actually talked to someone. Writing this seems like it was a cathartic experience for him, so despite his rationalizations for never talking about it - I think had he done so, he would have been a far happier person.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, January 7, 2011 8:46 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

He did.

"You may wonder why I didn't just talk to a professional about this. I've seen a number of doctors since I was a teenager to talk about other issues and I'm positive that another doctor would not have helped. I was never given one piece of actionable advice, ever. More than a few spent a large part of the session reading their notes to remember who I was. And I have no interest in talking about being raped as a child, both because I know it wouldn't help and because I have no confidence it would remain secret. I know the legal and practical limits of doctor/patient confidentiality, growing up in a house where we'd hear stories about the various mental illnesses of famous people, stories that were passed down through generations. All it takes is one doctor who thinks my story is interesting enough to share or a doctor who thinks it's her right or responsibility to contact the authorities and have me identify the molestor (justifying her decision by telling herself that someone else might be in danger). All it takes is a single doctor who violates my trust, just like the "friends" who I told I was gay did, and everything would be made public and I'd be forced to live in a world where people would know how fucked up I am. And yes, I realize this indicates that I have severe trust issues, but they're based on a large number of experiences with people who have shown a profound disrepect for their word and the privacy of others."

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Friday, January 7, 2011 9:25 AM

DREAMTROVE

Rumination is a form of mental illness. What he failed to realize was that it was not the events of his life that were bringing him down, but the rumination on them.

Life is pain, move on, check your baggage at the door, a train is waiting to take you somewhere far away, where no one knows or cares where or who you were, as long as you don't.

That, and 5-htp, a potent anti-depressant that thankfully you can still buy over the counter for three bucks at any drugstore or supermarket.

The snag with mental illness is that you always think that you have it figured out, and that your problems are coming from the outside, invading you, and infecting your thoughts. The reverse is true.

I sometimes think that everyone would life happier and more productive lives if we all lived under the constant threat of our imminent demise. Complacency, it appears, leads to suicide.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
He did.

Uh, no, he didn't. Says it right there in the passage you quoted, yet clearly didn't put much effort into reading.

He said he talked to people about other issues - but never the one that drove him to take his own life.

Reading comprehension - look into it, video boy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, January 7, 2011 10:59 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Actually he gave a very realistic reason for not going into detail.

Story, just let it go. Some "great and all powerful authority" was not the answer for this guy.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Friday, January 7, 2011 11:18 AM

DREAMTROVE

Wulf

I assume this is someone you knew?

Sorry to hear.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 11:21 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

No. This was not someone I knew personally.

What would it matter in any case?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Friday, January 7, 2011 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Actually he gave a very realistic reason for not going into detail.

I know he did. Doesn't change the fact that he said right there in the passage that he didn't talk to anyone about it - and you claimed he did.

Again, reading comprehension. Work on it.

Quote:
Story, just let it go. Some "great and all powerful authority" was not the answer for this guy.

Never claimed there was. Interesting that you would put quotes around something you invented.

Please, try and look at the words that are actually there, rather than imagining what you'd like to throw a snarky remark back at.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, January 7, 2011 12:23 PM

This is heartbreaking. My heart is breaking.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 12:23 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

This guy did NOT HAVE to die.

And some therapist was NOT the answer.

Yes. I cobble together faith and hope from passages in the Bible, the Koran, Comic Books, and all the stupid videos and movies Ive watched.

Hell, I even gain the strength to keep going from the few news stories I read about people doing amazing things, and having some measure of luck.

So why didn't he?

Life sucks. Its hard even here in America. But one fucking thing we all have as a national trait is grit.

You don't quit. You don't give up.

But he did and his reasoning is good.

I would have liked to talk to him.

Maybe shown him that the little moments are worth it.

I dont know.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Friday, January 7, 2011 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
This guy did NOT HAVE to die.

And some therapist was NOT the answer.

Perhaps. But no one said that. I just said someone, a friend, something. But you're right, he didn't have to die - and thus what he did wasn't the answer either. What would you have suggested? Posting youtube clips and fantasizing about killing minorities like you?

And such a interesting path you've taken in this thread, in which no one even disagreed with your underlying point:

You claimed the opposite of what he said (and then didn't have the stones to admit your mistake).

Then you made up a quote as if I had said it.

Now you're throwing in a therapist no one mentioned.

But good on you, ya half wit. You're 0 for 3. You're comprehension skills are so appallingly bad, I'm amazed you read his letter (oh, right, you already proved you only skimmed it). But then, your new favorite book is written for teenage girls, so....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, January 7, 2011 12:33 PM

HARDWARE

Sometimes the best therapy is friends and family that can prop you up when you can't stand on your own.

Seems to me Firefly had something to say about that.

But yes, the world is a bit poorer because Bill Zeller is gone. Flocks of angels to see thee to thy rest Bill. Even if you wouldn't agree with the choice of words, I hope you can appreciate the sentiment.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 12:42 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Very sad.

Quote:
And some therapist was NOT the answer.

We'll never know, and to me that's part of the tragedy.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 12:45 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Suicide is the willful murder of hope.

I know there are times when its needed. The pain of cancer, for example.

I guess I would have prefered he kill the molestor.

But then he would have been in jail.

Where the fuck is the justice in that?

"Oh, but if he had just told on his molestor THEY would hav been in jail. THEY would have been raped and hopefully killed by the convicts."

Yeah. Maybe.

But that is not real, hand-held JUSTICE. Its justice by proxy.

I swear to God, there should be a law that if you kill a child molestor, you are free and clear of all punishment.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Friday, January 7, 2011 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Sometimes the best therapy is friends and family that can prop you up when you can't stand on your own.

Seems to me Firefly had something to say about that.

Indeed. And while this guy's family seems like more of a problem than a solution, it sounds like he did have friends. Or perhaps the woman who he loved would have been a sympathetic ear.

Family can be found in many places and forms, and need not be who you share blood with.

Which I think Firefly exemplified quite well.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, January 7, 2011 12:58 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"To those of you who have shown me love, thank you for putting up with all my shittiness and moodiness and arbitrariness. I was never the person I wanted to be. Maybe without the darkness I would have been a better person, maybe not. I did try to be a good person, but I realize I never got very far."

Fuck.

Who among us can not say this?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Friday, January 7, 2011 1:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Very sad. I wonder if his life might have been happier if he had gotten over his mistrust of doctors and actually talked to someone. Writing this seems like it was a cathartic experience for him, so despite his rationalizations for never talking about it - I think had he done so, he would have been a far happier person.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

i think so too. keeping it all secret was one of the things that ate away at him. the fact that he needed so desperately to keep it secret indicatea that he felt a lot of shame around what happened, maybe even felt like he contributed. i don't think he ever found the courage to talk to a professional about what happened, and i think that it probably would have helped him deal with the darkness in him.

child abuse and fundamental christian parents is a lot to manage in your life.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 2:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I refuse to mourn for him, he had his reasons, and opted out of a world in which he did not feel he had a place.
A lot of people do that, but very few explain why, and even fewer have that explaination heard.

You see, I know that darkness, from a different form of abuse, but that hardly matters.

How it empties your soul, drives you, fills you with a hatred beyond description, flogging you with the need to destroy, a beast straining at its chain, waiting for a moment of weakness, and the horrible thought it could be unleashed on something or someone you have managed to force yourself to care about, BECAUSE you care about it, or them.

So yeah, I completely grok this, right down to the very core.
And I can do not other than respect, fully, his choice, his course of action, thus I feel to mourn him would be an insult, rather I would mourn for what could have been, and wasn't.

Which is, you might say, the root of the different path I took, for I embraced the darkness and made it a weapon, at first against those who I felt had wronged me, or who wronged others in fashions like this...
But it would amount to nothing, it would change nothing, and so, the goal became to forge a world where such wrongs do not happen, can not happen, and while that may not be possible, every step forward means there's less OF it, less chance of producing people broken so badly they can no longer tolerate their own existence.

While he ain't around to tell it to anymore, there are people who understand, but not only that, there are those in this world who use that understanding in an effort to forge a world where no human will suffer this kind of tormented existence in the future - and I wish him peace in whatever destination he arrived at.

Pretty sure mine won't be as pleasant, but that is MY choice, just as he made his.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 2:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Suicide is the willful murder of hope.

Wulf, sometimes, it's about choosing not to live in pain anymore.

You said you could understand it of cancer patients. Emotional pain is sometimes worse and more unbearable.

Bill Zeller was in an enormous amount of unspeakable pain, with no relief. If nothing else, his letter was a plea to not judge him for his choice to end his pain.

I hope we can honor his last request.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 2:51 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

The one good piece of advice I've heard for dealing with depression is "No matter how dark the night feels, the morning will always arrive."

Guess that just didn't hold true here.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Friday, January 7, 2011 3:35 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Dont ask dont tell.

Homnosexuality and pedophilia are good for you.

Big Brother said so in snuff kiddie porn at Bohemian Grove.

Now bend over and kiss your assets goodbye.

PS: He should've taken that rage and USED IT...

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Friday, January 7, 2011 4:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
The one good piece of advice I've heard for dealing with depression is "No matter how dark the night feels, the morning will always arrive."

Guess that just didn't hold true here.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

And I guess the true meaning of severe depression is that you can no longer believe that.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 4:06 PM

DREAMTROVE

Live is pain.

Pain is life's way of reminding you that you are alive.

Quote:
Wulfenstar:
I know there are times when its needed. The pain of cancer, for example.

I would say amazingly bad timing on that one, but then again, any time would be the wrong time to have said that, for someone. So when speaking to a large audience, better not to say it at all.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 6:33 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Live is pain."

Hello,

Not a startlingly good argument for life.

Isn't life also pleasure?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 6:35 PM

Pain and pleasure, like happiness, sadness, despair and hope are all temporary states through which we all pass.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Isn't life also pleasure?

Sometimes life is all pain and no pleasure. Sometimes, the only pleasure one gets a a brief respite from the pain, here and there. When a temporary absence of continuous pain is considered "pleasure," one starts to think about death.

I said in another thread that I am anti-Death. And I am.

But I also feel I cannot judge people who have chosen to take their lives. I have heard of many agonizing stories where, if I had been in their shoes, I would overwhelmingly prefer instant death than to go on living.

It doesn't mean that I would have killed myself, but I certainly would have been sorely tempted. There, but the grace of God, go I.

Sometimes, it takes an inordinate amount of inhuman will to endure the pain of life. At that point, life is reduced to one question: Why endure?

Personally, whatever would keep me going is this: "We can't help if we're dead." -- Maman Marie, a rape counselor in the DR Congo.

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/notes-from-a-young-america
n-in-congo-maman-marie-local-hero/

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Pain and pleasure, like happiness, sadness, despair and hope are all temporary states through which we all pass.

Sometimes pain, sadness, and despair are not as temporary as we can endure.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 3:34 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Live is pain."

Hello,

Not a startlingly good argument for life.

Isn't life also pleasure?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

Yes it is...

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 4:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It's too bad he didn't talk to somebody. Not doctors, but abuse survivors. He would have learned he's not alone. There could have been a doctor there to prescribe medication. I don't know whether that would have helped, but now nobody does, especially Mr. Zeller. The person who would have had the most to gain is the person who chose not to try.

I recall being in the ER w/ our daughter after yet another major seizure. We could very clearly hear what was going on in the curtained-off area next to ours. There was a young mother who had gone under the kitchen sink and drank everything she could find, because her abusive boyfriend abused her one more... one last... time. She was obtunded, and the doctors didn't think she was going to survive. I used to think, if you're going to commit suicide... if you're that far at the end of your rope... why not commit murder instead?

To the end, Zeller was protecting the person who abused him by hiding his identity. I guess that was his way of hanging on to the last shreds of his humanity, but I wonder if revealing that identity might not have been a step towards healing. And, perhaps helping someone else.

Poor guy.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 4:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Wulf, why do you think you'd have to ask us to "keep it civil"? Do you think we'd really kick a guy around, especially when he's dead?

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:06 PM