Run out and get more guns while you can... by pizmobeach

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am always wary of such measures.

Of course I don't want any mentally unstable people to have firearms.

However, how does one prevent such people from getting firearms?

1) The government needs to keep a list.

2) Someone needs to submit names to that list.

3) The seller needs to check with an agency that maintains that list.

Now we have the possibility of a Federal registry of crazy.

How do people get ON the registry?

How do people get OFF the registry?

How much does it cost me to check the registry?

And... if I know my name might be going on a list, do I seek psychological help for my problems?

Not wanting crazy people to have guns is common-sense. But implementation can get dicey for a variety of reasons. Just look at the no-fly list for an example of government list management.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

What sort of gun do you suggest ?

A hand gun ? A rifle ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:21 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I am always wary of such measures.

Of course I don't want any mentally unstable people to have firearms.

However, how does one prevent such people from getting firearms?

1) The government needs to keep a list.

2) Someone needs to submit names to that list.

3) The seller needs to check with an agency that maintains that list.

Now we have the possibility of a Federal registry of crazy.

How do people get ON the registry?

How do people get OFF the registry?

How much does it cost me to check the registry?

And... if I know my name might be going on a list, do I seek psychological help for my problems?

Not wanting crazy people to have guns is common-sense. But implementation can get dicey for a variety of reasons. Just look at the no-fly list for an example of government list management.

Good questions. There's no perfect solution, there will always be mistakes and things that fall through the cracks, but there is perhaps a better solution, one that actually and honestly respects both camps. But I would be surprised if this doesn't deteriorate to the "2 Extremes Negation Rule of Conflict" that I tried to describe in another thread.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:24 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If there are people on one side of the table whose ultimate goal is 'no guns' then there will be people on the other side of the table who are unwilling to hear any argument or compromise.

And of course, the organizations that feed on both camps have an interest in maintaining the hype at high levels. If you want money for your group, all you have to do is mention guns. Take any stand you like. Money will roll in.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:49 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

If there are people on one side of the table whose ultimate goal is 'no guns' then there will be people on the other side of the table who are unwilling to hear any argument or compromise.

And of course, the organizations that feed on both camps have an interest in maintaining the hype at high levels. If you want money for your group, all you have to do is mention guns. Take any stand you like. Money will roll in.

--Anthony

Absolutely - the thing that I've just noticed that goes with that is in many conflicts, those with more moderate voices get drowned out by the extremes to the point where those extremes become the ones who shape the entire debate. The passion is greater on the edges and ends up trumping other considerations.
I think that will happen here. The NRA will say, "this is the first step in the gov coming into your homes and removing your guns forcibly! If we allow this, what's next??!" And of course, the anti-gun groups would probably be secretly happy with that. That leaves the middle, where there's usually more common sense and less fear imho, but also less passion for the debate, so they'll get less press.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:03 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Of course I don't want any mentally unstable people to have firearms.

I agree. How to we take the guns from the govt?

Art of War by Dr Death Jack Kevorkian
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=33887

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:10 AM

I have a serious problem with this.

1) As a person with a mental health history, I am still an American citizen. It just means that I was tortured by doctors. I am not a felon, I don't think my constitutional rights should be abridged.

2) I have not yet seen any evidence or statistical correlation to indicate that those with a mental health history are more likely to commit crimes with guns.

3) Once such a list is created, how long will it be before other restrictions apply? Travel restrictions, job restrictions. I used to teach high school. If I had to go back to that, I would, but what if I couldn't?

4) How will such a list be used in the shadows? Will I be tracked? Will the govt. decide how many children I can have, or whether I should have any? Maybe I will be targeted with a sterilizing substrate in my flu vaccine, or any random IV I get from any operation or injury.

I know where the President is coming from, which is Hyde Park* a place where people shoot people. But this is not the solution to that problem.

* Okay, technically, his house is in Woodlawn, but it's like sticking out into Hyde park, and I was shot at by a sniper a block from his house. A crackhead sniper, not a govt. agent. I joked when he put up the security fence "Oh, that's not because he's a candidate for president, it's because it's Hyde Park

ETA:

Quote:
Anthony:
Of course I don't want any mentally unstable people to have firearms.

I missed this until John snagged it. Why not? How do you feel about them having cars? Or kids? Being Doctors? Doctors kill 20 times as many people each year as guns.

I think that even if you did screen for violent psychotic behavior, it would have to be based on prior record of violence. I personally think the violent are a completely separate category from the insane. It's noticeable when the two coincide, but I don't know that it's statistically relevant.

I remember a murder attempt that I called in to 911. The argument had just hit that tenor pitch where your instincts kick in, so I called the cops on my neighbor. Good little communist that I was.

Anyway, by the time they arrived, the attacker, a normal sane woman had already attacked her son, a man around 20. The son put up his hand to stop the blade, and it went right through him, stigmata style.

She then went again for his throat, and an indian named Eddie, who was the most insane person I think I've ever met: Eddie had no contact with reality at all. The only sane thing about Eddie was that he was vaguely aware that he was insane, and might tell you something and say "I don't know if that's true or not. That's how my brain puts it together, but it makes things up."

Anyway, Eddie had the presence of mind to put himself in between mother and son and save the son's life, and in the process, got his own throat slit. (He survived because cops arrived minutes later and rushed him to the hospital.)

But really, any pre-screening of the incident based on mental health would have removed Eddie, and not Debbie or her son.

The local killings around here, as a token sample, I can easily count maybe 3 out of 10 could be called "crazy" but two of those had not been identified as such before the killing. The one who had, had a prior criminal record for homocide, and it was only in prison that he had been identified as crazy. The other two were simply crazy by virtue of the crime they had just committed, rape/murders. No prior screening could catch that. What's the screening question "If you end up raping a girl, would you then feel it necessary to kill her?"

Most of the killers were sane. A couple were cops. Today, a college professor killed a kid. I don't know why, I don't think anyone does yet.

People just snap. Whether or not they do damage when they do is dependent on how many weapons they have, and whether or not they are a violent person.

http://sailom.blogspot.com/2006/03/violentization-from-wikipedia-free.
html

Argh. Corruption! Wikipedia deleted Violentization theory. It's a pretty sound theory, and as a theory, it doesn't have any reason to be deleted. I mean "Intelligent Design" is still there, so the bogosity of a theory doesn't signal its deletion. Usually duplication does, but that's not the case here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violentization

This baffles me.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
If there are people on one side of the table whose ultimate goal is 'no guns'

Can you point to me any statistically valid number of people who want “no guns”? I’ve never heard about them.

Quote:
those with more moderate voices get drowned out by the extremes to the point where those extremes become the ones who shape the entire debate.

That’s more “it” to me; ANY attempt to modify guns, even to modify obviously extreme and illogical gun ownership or (in this case) ammunition, is viewed as a desire for “no guns” and hollered about as such.

Quote:
I have not yet seen any evidence or statistical correlation to indicate that those with a mental health history are more likely to commit crimes with guns.

Given the various mass murders which have occurred the past few years by people who were shown to have mental illness, I’m not sure how you rationalize that. People who kill with guns in robberies or for personal reasons or whatever are rarely shown to have mental health histories; people who commit mass murder then suicide are often found to. I have a mental health history too, in fact am currently diagnosed and take meds, and I don’t consider it having been “tortured”...nor do the vast majority of those with mental-health issues. But I have also known a goodly number of people with bipolarity or schizophrenia who, at times, would terrify my to think they have access to a gun.

There are no perfect answers, but as Anthony said, “That leaves the middle, where there's usually more common sense and less fear”. That’s the truth, to me.

Quote:
I missed this until John snagged it. Why not? How do you feel about them having cars? Or kids? Being Doctors? Doctors kill 20 times as many people each year as guns.

That’s reaching, REALLY reaching, in my opinion. I don’t like the idea of “lists”, but as I said, there are no perfect answers. Common sense seems to me a place to start, and high-number magazines seems like common sense to me.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:59 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violentization

This baffles me.

Someone saved it here:

http://sailom.blogspot.com/2006/03/violentization-from-wikipedia-free.
html

Wikipedia is the mouthpiece of TPTB. I use it to find out what mainstream thought is supposed be.

So, apparently someone doesn't want violentization to be in mainstream thought.

-------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:40 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
If there are people on one side of the table whose ultimate goal is 'no guns' then there will be people on the other side of the table who are unwilling to hear any argument or compromise.

Damn right there will be, so long as most of the folk arguing for "reasonable measures" admit publicly or privately that those measures are a stepping stone to total prohibition, I'll be one of em too.

BECAUSE of those intentions I view their desire to debate "reasonable measures" in much the same fashion I would a sleazy looking fellow in a ragged T-shirt with drool stains on his chin trying to lure children into his van with candy.

So you can imagine that perspective of em is gonna color any "debate" - which in the end amounts to me restating my position over and over in the face of folk who want me to be conveniently disarmed...

Making it all the easier to drag me into that van.

THAT, is how I view them.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:25 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Damn right there will be, so long as most of the folk arguing for "reasonable measures" admit publicly or privately that those measures are a stepping stone to total prohibition, I'll be one of em too.

"total prohibition"
I find it hard to believe anyone could honestly think that 's even remotely possible - if they really do think it and aren't just stirring up the gun hater extremists, then they're crazy.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:31 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

DT - I think you are doing what so many here do and that's jumping to the most negative conclusion. The WH hasn't even said what their approach will be yet.
I don't think you should read the expression "mentally unstable" as literally as you are either - (besides, we're all a bit crazy). I think that's just being used as a place holder for X reason, as yet to be determined, such as "... someone with a violent criminal past..."

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
most of the folk arguing for "reasonable measures" admit publicly or privately that those measures are a stepping stone to total prohibition

”MOST”? I wasn’t aware of that; can you cite facts and figures, please? Otherwise, I don’t believe it, I think it’s a case of black-and-white thinking.

Quote:
BECAUSE of those intentions I view their desire to debate "reasonable measures" in much the same fashion I would a sleazy looking fellow in a ragged T-shirt with drool stains on his chin trying to lure children into his van with candy.

Which explains why reasonable discussion can never take place. Sometimes, Frem, and on a few subjects, I think your vision is clouded. You REALLY think we need 30+ magazines, assault weapons and automatic rifles (or whatever)?

Oh jeez, I’m getting sucked in. I will reiterate that there are LOTS of us out here who have no desire to take everyone’s guns away, who own guns OURSELVES, who are in favor of reasonable measures which would be common sense anywhere else in the world, and should be common sense to intelligent people in America. Gun ownership is not a reasonable issue, and you disappoint me by giving a perfect example..

Other than that, Pizmo says it for me.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:54 AM

CTS

Thanks

I don't buy that Wikipedia is a conspiracy, I just think they can edit it just like we can, and they are probably more motivated.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:56 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

And now we see one of the "benefits" of ObamaCare.

The governemnt gets to decide if you are "sane" enough to have rights.

Perfect.

"Reasonable restrictions" on my rights. Nice. Try.

Guess we will see what Obama has to say.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:58 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

What sort of gun do you suggest ?

A hand gun ? A rifle ?

Caught a couple of episodes of Sons of Guns last night. Handguns and rifles are for little kids.
Gotta have at least an M-4 with a 12 gauge slug gun under it, if not a grenade launcher, or maybe a sound-supressed shotgun...

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 11:19 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
And now we see one of the "benefits" of ObamaCare.

The governemnt gets to decide if you are "sane" enough to have rights.

Perfect.

"Reasonable restrictions" on my rights. Nice. Try.

Guess we will see what Obama has to say.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

I suppose YOU would have reason to worry. If they take guns away from crazy bastards, you're gonna loose all your toys.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 11:46 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I missed this until John snagged it. Why not? How do you feel about them having cars? Or kids? Being Doctors? Doctors kill 20 times as many people each year as guns."

Hello,

I wouldn't want unstable people to have any of that.

On the other hand...

I wouldn't want any legislation to stop them, either.

I don't think making lists of people is less dangerous than having crazy people running around.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:16 PM

Quote:
I wouldn't want unstable people to have any of that.

To be fair, this is part of the reason I'm not having children. But to ask someone else to give that up? Can't do it.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:49 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
I wouldn't want unstable people to have any of that.

To be fair, this is part of the reason I'm not having children. But to ask someone else to give that up? Can't do it.

My ex made a similar decision. There were other factors involved, but one of the reasons he had for not wanting children was his family and personal history of mental illness and instability. Of course, he is in many ways one of the most stable people I know. Sure he has his problems, but he's more straightforward and logical than most people I've met. And he's never violent. He rarely even raises his voice. So, I certainly don't question that he has a 'history,' because he does, but I also don't think of him as at all unstable. Other members of his family might be a different matter. There are some of them I might not trust with a shoelace.
The fact of the matter is that if someone is put in a mental institution, they do lose all their rights. Institutions are essentially prisons, with the patients kept rather isolated. Their activities and what they can have are greatly restricted. Guns are the least of it. I'm sure that some of them aren't allowed forks. I'm not saying this is okay, I'm just pointing out the fact.

I will probably get flamed for this, but I really don't see why we can't just give licenses for guns the same way we do for driving. Cars are arguably just as lethal as guns when handled improperly. Prove that you know how to safely handle one, maybe take a couple tests. Maybe a criminal background check. There's problems with that, with the non-violent felonies, false charges, self-defense that wasn't ruled as such, et al. I don't think it's a totally bad idea, but I don't think it's the best one, either. Yeah, I want to keep guns out of the hands of people who would use them to slaughter other people, but I appreciate how difficult that can really be without disallowing them entirely, which I would not be in favor of.
I will point out, though, that there used to be rules on assault weapon sales. It didn't turn into a full-out ban on all weapons. Re-instating those laws... I don't see a huge problem with that. They probably wouldn't have stopped the shooting in Arizona, so I wouldn't suggest that, but it's possible that it would have been less devastating. It's possible fewer people would have died. He was tackled while reloading, right? So it's possible he would have been tackled sooner. So, when it comes to fully automatic and assault type weapons, I'm not convinced that laws regulating their sale will lead to other restrictions, and it could mitigate some of the problems with violent unstable people having guns.

I do not need the written code of a spiritual belief to act like a decent human being.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:08 PM

PR,

Quote:
in a mental institution, they do lose all their rights.

Here, you can sue for release, but no one tells you that and it may not have always been true, and it may just be here. Also, I don't know, if you're not technically a self-signin, you get classified differently. It's a legal nightmare to be a forced commit, so they always encourage everyone to sign themselves in, you have more rights. They still torture you while you're in there and you have no rights, even on treatment choices. If you don't take the pills they forcibly inject you.

Quote:
I really don't see why we can't just give licenses for guns the same way we do for driving. Cars are arguably just as lethal as guns when handled improperly.

Spot on.

Quote:
Yeah, I want to keep guns out of the hands of people who would use them to slaughter other people, but I appreciate how difficult that can really be without disallowing them entirely

Yes, the arrogance of presumption that one can know ahead of time based on some unrelated criteria is what gets me. It's back to Minority Report and pre-crime.

Quote:
there used to be rules on assault weapon sales. It didn't turn into a full-out ban on all weapons. Re-instating those laws...

Maybe. Certainly for carrying around. I can see where an organization which thought it was going to be attacked might feel it needed defending. Still, I'm non-violent, so I oppose the idea of guns anyway. I do see the problem with gun control though. It's a sticky one.

Anthony,

Quote:
Anthony
I wouldn't want unstable people to have any of that.

Arbiter of the species? What about cats. Should they not have kittens? They're pretty unstable.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:09 PM

As usual, lots of 'all or nothing' thinking and bat shit crazy conspiracy theories = extremism.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:32 PM

HARDWARE

Since this is a reaction to the Loughner shooting, has any news article or report, anywhere, at anytime to your knowledge, mentioned that since Loughner lied on the ATF for 4473 when he obtained his pistol that he had already committed a federal felony?

So, everyone who supports this thinks it is possible to make something MORE illegal?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
As usual, lots of 'all or nothing' thinking and bat shit crazy conspiracy theories = extremism.

>_>

Who is this in response to?

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I am always wary of such measures.

Of course I don't want any mentally unstable people to have firearms.

However, how does one prevent such people from getting firearms?

1) The government needs to keep a list.

2) Someone needs to submit names to that list.

3) The seller needs to check with an agency that maintains that list.

Now we have the possibility of a Federal registry of crazy.

How do people get ON the registry?

How do people get OFF the registry?

How much does it cost me to check the registry?

And... if I know my name might be going on a list, do I seek psychological help for my problems?

Not wanting crazy people to have guns is common-sense. But implementation can get dicey for a variety of reasons. Just look at the no-fly list for an example of government list management.

--Anthony

Not necessary. Plenty of jobs require you to undergo medicals or provide medical reports from doctors or to for a person to provide statuatory declarations. Geez, I can't get mortgage insurance from my current broker if I've taken ongoing epilepsy medication. You wouldn't get a job as a pilot or someone who operates heavy machiney if you have a history of psychosis.

People who have suffered from mental illness are excluded or restricted from a lot of stuff. There is a constant tension between upholding the rights of the individual who has mental illness and protecting the majority, and we'd all probably argue about where that begins and ends.

It will interesting to see how they define 'mental illness' as the term has become so all encompassing in recent years. There is a huge difference between suffering from mild depression, and someone who suffers from acute paranoid schizophenia or a psychotic illnesses, yet they all come under the heading 'mental illness'.

The other issue is that people with diagnosed mental illnesses are often quite stable people. They've learnt to manage their illness, and have had support doing it and usually have a deal of insight into their illness and its impact. These are the kind of people who would probably self exclude from ownership of firearms. It those with undiagnosed mental illnesses that cause the most havoc in my view. They may not even be aware of their illness or its impact on themselves and others.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:28 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Funny how Pastor Lindsey Williams was told by his oil executives that "Something BIG is gonna happen in Arizona. Watch Arizona..." That was Dec 2010.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 5:28 PM

Quote:
The other issue is that people with diagnosed mental illnesses are often quite stable people. They've learnt to manage their illness, and have had support doing it and usually have a deal of insight into their illness and its impact. These are the kind of people who would probably self exclude from ownership of firearms. It those with undiagnosed mental illnesses that cause the most havoc in my view. They may not even be aware of their illness or its impact on themselves and others.

This is accurate, though stability is relative. You can be aware of your illness, and self-select out of a number of things including firearms, and also be not at all stable. The real trick is managing the appearance of day to day functionality. Then cracks show up.

I appreciate it when people don't point out the cracks. It helps me feel more normal.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 5:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Arbiter of the species? What about cats. Should they not have kittens? They're pretty unstable."

Hello,

I'm trying to make sense of this statement, and I am failing.

As an aside, three out of three cats in my house are stable.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:31 PM

Stable for cats. which usually means balance ;) Cats are not majorly equipped with serotonin resevoirs. I used to think this was evolution, but now I suspect its dietary. The result is they lack perspective, and tend to be jumpy and neurotic.

I was taking issue with your restrictions to the unstable, which I get weren't legislative, but I still think that perception of reality is subjective.

Where mainstream society sees us as lunatics, we see them as sheep. I'm not sure I'd take their logical mundane approach, I think I'd favor mine. I don't want anyone second guessing that.

Humans are a species, a life form, we are composed of random members. We have a right to move around, eat, live, reproduce, and communicate. These are not constitutional rights, they were granted to all animals by their creator.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:41 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

You seem to be confusing crazy with unstable, something I fear the government will do as well. I also fear they will classify undesirable behavior right along with mental illness.

Looking at the world in a special way is very different from being an unstable person. The reason I'm not happy with unstable people having power over others is because, being unstable, even they can't control or predict what they'll do with that power.

So, no, I wouldn't want unstable people to have cars, knives, guns, or children. And I'd think you wouldn't want that, either.

But then, I don't want Westboro baptists protesting at funerals, and I'd not lift a finger to stop them.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:47 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
There is a huge difference between suffering from mild depression, and someone who suffers from acute paranoid schizophenia or a psychotic illnesses, yet they all come under the heading 'mental illness'.

Technically correct, though depression is characterized as "low grade mental illness" and something like chronic paranoid schizophrenia would be "acute mental illness." Consider the millions of people being treated for depression and anxiety disorders. And even the millions who aren't, but probably have some sort of issue. Most of them are very high-functioning and wouldn't actually come under the same heading as a psychotic illness with violent tendencies.
However. Because there's always a however. If someone diagnosed with severe depression wanted to buy a gun, it could save their life to refer them to therapy or treatment. There are a lot of reasons this could infringe on rights, so they don't have to be pointed out to me, but it could be a case for some kind of waiting list or something. Suicidal thoughts could well pass or be dealt with if a depressed person had to wait a week or so to get their hands on a gun.

Ritual is what happens when we run out of rational.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:03 PM

Anthony

I think the mentally ill are largely just people who are aware of the inherent chaos of the human mind, an awareness brought to them by a random event which shocked the system. I don't find the sane to be more rational than the lunatic of whatever stripe. Sure, at a certain point, but that point has many warning signs that are certain to cross the legal code.

PR, Magon

I take a more philosophical approach. I could cure either condition, but should I? I'm not happier being normal than I was as a schizophrenic, nor am I more productive. In fact, I feel relatively useless. When I figure out how to undo my cure, I will probably do so. Since it was chemical, I feel fairly sure that I can.

Depression I would only cure if its extreme or chronic. I think that 5htp on hand is a really good idea, just to keep people from committing suicide. Also, chronic depression can lead to self absorption and defeatism. But that said, there are all sorts of things that come with happy, which are not all desirable. I would treat depression minimally.

But a therapist has recently led me into a study of cognitive patterns which are more about how we have decided to wire our brains, not as the result of any physical or chemical factors, but by our own agency. These tendencies can be altered slightly by very highly tuned adjustments in diet or supplementation, but ultimately thats a stop gap measure in a means toward cognitive restructuring, and the replacing of negative reinforcement behaviors with more positive ones.

For example,

Rumination is particularly destructive, and can lead to a completely retrospective existence. The chronic ruminator will often see connections in his past to his future which are tenuous at best, and eventually can convince himself that he is entirely a product of his past. Once he has done this, it can be exceedingly difficult for him to accept the influences of the present, and indeed, the influences of his own repetitive thought patterns on his future thoughts.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:15 PM

Have you suffered from schizophrenia DT? It looks like a pretty difficult and debilitating illness to me, although I appreciate that some people find the medication that is used to control it worse than the actual illness because of the flatness that they feel. I know the same is true for bipolar as well. In my experience some people manage their illness, but don't always use drugs. I meet a lot of chaotic out of control people who are not diagnoses, but who live very unstable lives. Probably why I am not a big supported of unrestricted gun ownership, because I'd hate to think of these people being able to own guns.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:26 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I think the mentally ill are largely just people who are aware of the inherent chaos of the human mind"

Hello,

What leads you to believe that the human mind is inherently chaotic?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:27 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I have to disagree a little, DT. Not being schizophrenic, I can't comment on that, but I can certainly comment on depression and anxiety. I've never been more productive, never had more purpose, and never been happier than I've been since I started turning those around. I don't want to be trite, here, but the world seemed terribly empty. And stressful. Hurtful and gray and constrictive. I never want that back. Sometimes I feel it looming behind me, and I can't even describe how that feels, because I want it to be gone more than anything. I don't know what aspects of happy you think are undesirable, but I've found no undesirable consequences to having purpose in my life.

Ritual is what happens when we run out of rational.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:34 PM

That sums it up for me as well. I've no romantic ideas about mental illness, given the past impact of having depression and still struggling with anxiety from time to time.

Being well, mentally and physically is a great place to be.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:42 PM

I hated being happy. Happy was a waste of time, and a lie. Drugged me and delusional me is not ME. If I have to cut off a full half of the range of emotions I can feel, I prefer it to not be the ones that most accurately represent what I am. A cynical, paranoid, bitter bitch hanging on by a thread and sheer determination.

I can only stave off the panic and the despair by working. busy busy...

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:47 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I'm sorry to hear that was your experience, Byte. I am not drugged, I am not delusional, and I don't feel less emotion, or less range of emotion. It seems to me that whatever your treatments, they weren't the best.

Ritual is what happens when we run out of rational.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:52 PM

They sterilized me. Shamed me, embarrassed me, and made a fool of me.

They gave SSRIs to a ten year old. The only good part about it was the nervous breakdown I had, the numb phase afterward convinced them I was aaaaaall better. So I didn't develop the chemical dependency some of my friends did to prozac. The ones who have to be on anti-suicidal medication for the rest of their lives, because they gave that shit to TEENS. The ones who got addicted to pain medication, one of whom has already been through an overdose coma.

I'm not as messed up as I could be. Just imagine the others who aren't so lucky. Psychiatry has a dark side. I was fortunate to get out early, and I'm never looking back.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:03 PM

However, I don't mean to suggest that you're not being true to yourself. A person has some right to choose who and how they want to be. I've chosen this, you've chosen yours. Nothing right or wrong about either.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:06 PM

PR,

Schizophrenic is a pretty meaningless term, like most of psychiatry, it's a relic from a time when people knew nothing about the brain. I actually have many diagnoses, all of them basically bogus.

What I had back then was a real sickness, some sort of stomach infection which was killing my probiotic bacteria and eating up my neurotransmitter precursors.

5 htp is great stuff, as long as you don't take too much of it. That leads to memory loss, and insensitivity. How long have you been taking it?

I think we went through doses, I said I had been taking 200mg/day for two years. But I was getting over something major. I had a wonderfully happy productive period that alas came crashing down. I think I over did it. I would actually be willing to cycle through the whole nightmare over again to get to that place.

I'm not afraid of my states of mind. I used to be, but now I know so many ways to alter it safely and effectively, and, also, I know it's all in my head. And the important part of that is knowing that it's not about to go away on it's own, you gotta stop and do something about it ;) But still

This past weekend when I was down with the cat flu, I had some weird hallucinations. Reminded me of my days as a lunatic. The weirdest one was this: Whenever I closed my eyes, nothing would happen. I would still see the room in front of me. I would see my hand waving in front of my face. I couldn't figure out what was happening.

I've had the experience before where the hallucinations become so real they are like a lucid dream state. I think this might have been what was happening: My mind was recreating reality precisely.

It's like dreams:

In my normal dreams, the world is always one way, consistently. There's a door at the top of my stairs which hasn't been there for 20 years, stuff like that. Certain places are connected to other places. There are towns and roads, it's an incredibly consistent world map, the college is there, everything is there, and everything is wrong. It's the spirit of things in real life, mixed in with recurrent people and places that exist only in the dream world.

When I snap into lucid dream state, everything gets very sharp and clear, and the map changes. Things become exactly how they really are. I'm suddenly more conscious of my own actions, things don't just happen to me. The only weird part is on the very rare occasion that this happens when I'm in a place which only exists in the dreamworld, it stays, and the real world is inaccessible. The recurrent dream element suddenly gets very real, but not like anything in real life. Like itself, magnified.

When hallucinations are strong they're like this, and controllable, with a fluid consciousness. I can float in them, or shape them. But I haven't had them in years.

When they're weak, they can be annoying, like just this sense that your hands are sticky, or there's something you're not quite seeing.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:10 PM

Quote:
Byte:
Psychiatry has a dark side.

What? It has a light side?

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:32 PM

Quote:
I'm not afraid of my states of mind.

I think this is a good way to be. That's what I try to aim for myself.

Quote:
Whenever I closed my eyes, nothing would happen. I would still see the room in front of me. I would see my hand waving in front of my face. I couldn't figure out what was happening.

This sounds like waking dreams I've had. Can become very surreal experiences. Was the source of one psychiatrist insisting I was schizophrenic at age 11 (I wasn't, and those meds messed me up more than any of the others).

Quote:
In my normal dreams, the world is always one way, consistently.

My regular dreams are very abstract. This may be a product of your eidetic memory - perhaps when you're dreaming it's not cut off like it is when you're awake.

As a side note, my memory is terrible and always has been except for trivia.

I don't really have nightmares, my dreams usually end well. I think I lucid dream all the time, and the few times I don't and the dreams end bad, I wake up then go back in and fix them, which then becomes recurrent. Lucid dreams do tend to be more vivid, but also more unstable if I'm doing it intentionally.

Quote:
When hallucinations are strong they're like this, and controllable, with a fluid consciousness.

My hallucinations when I'm awake briefly replace reality, with a strong psychosomatic component. Most of my hallucinations are about accidentally doing some damage to myself via impossible means.

Another odd kind of hallucination I have is seeing something happen twice. Almost like that scene in the Matrix, when the cat walks by twice, only in real life. These are more mundane, and less emotionally distressing.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:32 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
5 htp is great stuff, as long as you don't take too much of it. That leads to memory loss, and insensitivity. How long have you been taking it?

Um, about 8 months I think. I started on SAM-e early last year, which helped in a lot of ways, but wasn't effective for anxiety. Once all the test results came back and I looked into lowering the dopamine a little, I found 5htp, which almost immediately eased the anxiety, as well as lifting my mood to functional levels. I took a 50mg tablet every twelve hours or so for a few months, then eased back to one a day, and now I take one when I'm stressing.
At the same time, I was changing my eating habits, taking a supplement to bring my leptin and insulin down, taking a mild precursor to norepinephrine, and just generally trying to get my chemistry under control.
I should say that I've never been to a psychiatrist. My doctor is an endocrinologist. He actually runs tests and makes a wide variety of suggestions on how to treat various imbalances. He certainly cared about the impact on my emotional and mental health, but he also concerns himself with the physical impact, symptoms, and treatments. He doesn't have much interest into throwing pills at something until it goes away, and he really knows his stuff. He won't associate with insurance or pharmaceutical companies, either, so they're not twisting his arm off to prescribe as many drugs as possible. He did suggest one 'traditional' drug to bring my insulin levels down, but was fine with discontinuing it when it made me ill. Everything else he's recommended has been diet, lifestyle, and things I can buy at a vitamin shop. And hey, it worked. So yeah, I think there are much better routes than what many psychiatrists have opted for. And I think that chemistry tests should be demanded before harsh drugs are issued. You take the wrong thing that's designed to mess with the neurochemistry, very bad things are going to happen. It's not right that no testing is required for such things when any other drug would require a confirmation test. It's the brain we're talking about here, not a bloody jukebox that just needs a whack to start working.

Ritual is what happens when we run out of rational.

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Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:35 PM

You had a good doctor. It's nice to hear sometimes that they still exist...

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Friday, January 28, 2011 12:22 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I will probably get flamed for this, but I really don't see why we can't just give licenses for guns the same way we do for driving. Cars are arguably just as lethal as guns when handled improperly. Prove that you know how to safely handle one, maybe take a couple tests.

I'm not in opposition to that, but I am in opposition to the Government being in charge of it because they have proven, over and over and over, that they cannot be trusted with it, from the work of Jim March on the subject to Jenny Granholm having to put a boot up the ass of the Flint, MI police dept...
(after which, didja notice, Flint went from murder capitol of the world to ghost town ?)

Nah, what I say, is that in exchange for lawsuit immunity, the dealers and manufactures make a certain standard of training and competence a criteria for sale, and the infrastructure for this ALREADY exists within CCW classes, which prettymuch teach exactly those things you want someone buying a gun to know.

Hell, they could even offer discounts in exchange for advanced training which would further reduce their potential liability - sort of a good faith effort, but core competency being minimum standard.

And that could easily be done without the Governments hands on it other than acceptance of that standard and a legal pact acknowledging it, which they will in due time violate, no doubt, but at least it's SOMETHING.

For mine own though, personally I believe the right to bear any man-portable weapons system on the planet is utterly inviolate and should not be infringed or restricted in any way what so ever outside of removal of that right as a specific, additional sentence for a violent crime, period.

Remember, most state constitutions didn't even say "shall not be infringed", they say "shall not be QUESTIONED" - that oughta give you some idea of how armor-clad this concept was *supposed* to be.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, January 28, 2011 4:54 AM

Phoenix Rose

Wish I'd had your doctor.

That post was pretty spot on, you've got a good grasp of this stuff. You know I've been posting it here for a while, I've gotten some other people to switch to herbal treatments, and analyzing things in terms of neurochemistry and not 19th c. labeled conditions, and prescribed cures. The brain is not analogous to an infection. E.g. Tuberculosis is real. Bipolar is an opinion of an observation of a collection of symptoms. Psychopharmacology seems to this that these are the same thing.

Lowering the dopamine is not a good idea, raise the other NTs instead. Dopamine is where the smarts and some of the fun comes comes from, if you depress levels you can get a mental allostasis, and just become dumber and less fun. Also, of course, you can get the paradoxical reaction which comes from sensitivity, the brain increasing of the number of receptors to offset the falling NT production.

Quote:
I took a 50mg tablet every twelve hours or so for a few months, then eased back to one a day, and now I take one when I'm stressing.

Something else I should've done.
Lowering leptin can make you gain weight.

Quote:

It's the brain we're talking about here, not a bloody jukebox that just needs a whack to start working.

I want to steal that one.

Yes, psychiatry as a theory should be posted here, and probably preceded with the words "MKULTRA Knight of the British Empire."

How much of this stuff did you learn on your own?

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Friday, January 28, 2011 7:49 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
And now we see one of the "benefits" of ObamaCare.

The governemnt gets to decide if you are "sane" enough to have rights.

Perfect.

"Reasonable restrictions" on my rights. Nice. Try.

Guess we will see what Obama has to say.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

I suppose YOU would have reason to worry. If they take guns away from crazy bastards, you're gonna loose all your toys.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

This is hilarious, especially seeing it comes from a nutter who's idea of a toy is a rubber thing he jams in his ass. You gays are too much.

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Friday, January 28, 2011 7:55 AM