Abortion is... by dreamtrove

I didn't say endanger, I said 'health and wellbeing', which will certainly be harmed if a woman who does not wish to carry a fetus to term is forced to do so by the will of those who disagree with abortion.

so there is a preference, the life of a day old zygote is worth more than the health and wellbeing of its mother, as far as you are concerned.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 4:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:

Curious word choice, using 'Christians' specifically rather than RTL'ers, but I'm sure you're jonesing to catch Christians in hypocrisy. It's not very hard, 'specially when their are so many Christians and they also happen to suffer from the 'human' condition

Really RTL's are Christian by another name, aren't they. I don't mean people who find abortion distasteful or against their own ethics, but those who actively campaign to make it illegal and limited. This is a Christian stance made by Christians.

Quote:
I'm going have to think on the prospect of "creating" life in that manner but I can tell you I am opposed to destroying all those 'spares.'

So people going through fertility treatment must use up all their embryos? Are you suggesting that they could have 12-14 children if that was how many embryos were created?

Again, you put the existence of a collection of cells over the wellbeing of the parents, or are you suggesting such technologies also be banned?

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 4:30 PM

I think the child's life might be harmed by an abortion, ended even.

Let me put it this way with the first of the following taking priority over the ones that come after it.

1 The unborn child's life = the mothers life.
2 The unborn child's health = the mother's health
3 The unborn child's well being = the mother's wellbeing

EDIT:

Or perhaps they could not fertilize 12-14 embryos?

I've known RTL'ers who were not Christian. I've also known African Americans who were not democrats and Asians that do not play violin or piano. Those are assumptions, stereotypes, accurate enough only to perpetuate the stereotype (not that the 'stereotypers' need much encouragement).

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 4:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I think the child's life might be harmed by an abortion, ended even.

Where is the child? It's a zygote. Not yet a child, not even a baby, not even a foetus.

Quote:
Let me put it this way with the first of the following taking priority over the ones that come after it.

1 The unborn child's life = the mothers life.
2 The unborn child's health = the mother's health
3 The unborn child's well being = the mother's wellbeing

Ah, it's all so black and white for you, isn't it.

So a few scenarios, you and your girlfriend, would you prevent her from using the abortion pill if.....

she was raped
you found out the zygote was not going to make it to term because of genetic abnormalities
she threatens to commit suicide is she has to carry the baby to term.

From what I can gather your view is this...

1 The zygote's existnce = the mothers life.
2 The zygote's existence over the mother's health
3 The zygote's existence over the mother's wellbeing

Therefore, set of cells of a potential takes precedence over the mother.

Quote:
EDIT:

Or perhaps they could not fertilize 12-14 embryos?

So you clearly don't much about IVF. Well let us hope you never have to use those technologies to have a family.

Quote:
I've known RTL'ers who were not Christian. I've also known African Americans who were not democrats and Asians that do not play violin or piano. Those are assumptions, stereotypes, accurate enough only to perpetuate the stereotype (not that the 'stereotypers' need much encouragement).

It's not stereotyping if it is true, I'm afraid. 'Christians believe in a soul' for example, is not stereotyping. If I'd said 'all christians are right to lifers', I would be sterotyping. But for the sake of argument, I'm happy to amend to '99% of RTL's are christian' btw I mean christian as 'people who follow the christian faith' and don't exclude catholics as a lot of Americans do.

RTL's - not people who do not approve of abortion - but people who actively campaign against all forms of abortion and take the stance that you do - believe in the soul of the unborn baby, and they believe the soul enters the unborn baby at conception which is why they oppose the morning after pill and the abortion pill. Other faiths do not have that belief, nor of course, do atheists.

Some creeds, such as catholism, have traditionally believed that even the potential of human life should not be prevented, hence their stance on contraception (excepting of course the rhythm method which was approved because everyone needs a bit of inconsistency in their beliefs and because frankly, it didn't work)

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 5:07 PM

This is perhaps the dumbest level this debate has ever descended to.

Select to view spoiler:

And I know you guys read Post 32. And also post 1. Now we're at 104.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 5:15 PM

Once again, 'Dreamtrove the almighty' descends upon the threads to determine the correctness of a debate.

please, why don't you outline at the start of each thread, just exactly how you think it should progress, along with all the other thread rules you so like to remind us of.

You know, about 70% of your responses I find next to lunacy, but its an open forum last time I checked.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 5:15 PM

Quote:
From what I can gather your view is this...

1 The zygote's existnce = the mothers life.
2 The zygote's existence over the mother's health
3 The zygote's existence over the mother's wellbeing

Therefore, set of cells of a potential takes precedence over the mother.

That's odd, cause I posted something very similar only it only made use of equal signs... something kinda like

Quote:
1 The unborn child's life = the mothers life.
2 The unborn child's health = the mother's health
3 The unborn child's well being = the mother's wellbeing

You 'gathering' leaves much to be desired

Quote:
It's not stereotyping if it is true

How many times have we heard that before?

Quote:
RTL's - not people who do not approve of abortion - but people who actively campaign against all forms of abortion and take the stance that you do - believe in the soul of the unborn baby, and they believe the soul enters the unborn baby at conception which is why they oppose the morning after pill and the abortion pill.

I'm merely stating that when there is an unknown, the responsible thing to do is prepare for the worst possible scenario. The zygote might become a fetus that becomes a child that becomes an adult, therefore we should respect that potential (perhaps even likely) adult life to be. You attributing a lot of specifics to me that I've never given. I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't troll bait...

I'm going to listen to my 'spidey sense' this time and just stop answering personal questions.

EDIT @ DT

Your thread got jacked for a debate on topic, how often does that happen?

lol

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:

That's odd, cause I posted something very similar only it only made use of equal signs... something kinda like

Quote:
1 The unborn child's life = the mothers life.
2 The unborn child's health = the mother's health
3 The unborn child's well being = the mother's wellbeing

I'm trying to work out what you believe by drawing your argument to its conclusion, as I see it. Correct me where i am wrong.

Quote:
Quote:
It's not stereotyping if it is true

How many times have we heard that before?

You simply can't accuse someone of stereotyping if the are stating facts.

ie 'Right to lifers oppose abortion' is not stereotyping.

However, given that you stated you knew of non christian right to lifers, I did modify my statement.

Quote:

I'm merely stating that when there is an unknown, the responsible thing to do is prepare for the worst possible scenario. The zygote might become a fetus that becomes a child that becomes an adult, therefore we should respect that potential (perhaps even likely) adult life to be. You attributing a lot of specifics to me that I've never given. I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't troll bait...

I'm going to listen to my 'spidey sense' this time and just stop answering personal questions.

Do you always bring out the 'troll' accusation when you feel backed into a corner? BTW troll bait would imply you are the troll

I was asking you what YOU would do in such a circumstance because I think this debate takes on a different flavour if people discuss what they personally would do, rather than making it broad or general. But feel free to make them non personal if you feel compromised. My intent was not to pry into your personal life, but to see how far you could take your very strong convictions if faced with those hypotheticals.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 5:42 PM

Happy, is that a re-jack?

I'm afraid not. This was what this thread was created for, as clearly spelled out in my earlier posts.

I'm not sure who loses here, Magon for mindlessly marching in without reading, or Happy for reading, and then marching in anyway.

Two people here got it right off.

Select to view spoiler:

The whole gorram thread is troll bait, and openly stated as such.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 5:56 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I've known RTL'ers who were not Christian.

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/library/jones1.html

http://www.fnsa.org/fall98/reed.html

http://www.newsweek.com/2008/11/28/no-god-and-no-abortions.html

etc. etc.

-------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 5:58 PM

Now you know how little notice I take of your posts.

But the abortion debate, well I find it interesting and relevant. If you're not happy with the turn this thread, the why not start your own forum where you determine the rightfulness of each and every post.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 6:16 PM

Quote:
Do you always bring out the 'troll' accusation when you feel backed into a corner? BTW troll bait would imply you are the troll

I wasn't the first, or even the second to call kiki a troll, but I guess that was improper use of the term 'troll bait.' I'm still relatively new to these internet 'isms'

I must be a really fascinating guy that you must ask me all these questions right? I'm okay with that

But if I continue to share these personal hypothetical's type stuff, I'd just appreciate if you would read and ask questions were you were unsure rather than jumping to conclusions.

For the record, it is my (admittedly limited) understanding (and correct me if I am wrong) that the 'abortion pill' is not an 'abortion pill' but means of ensuring a zygote does not successfully attach to the wall and begin growing. In a sense, not dissimilar to birth control pills many women take regularly. The 'abortion pill' topic is something I would have too look into further before making a case for or against it. So I'm not sure if my hypothetical answers for that will actually be of any use to you but here goes.

Quote:
So a few scenarios, you and your girlfriend, would you prevent her from using the abortion pill if.....

she was raped
you found out the zygote was not going to make it to term because of genetic abnormalities
she threatens to commit suicide is she has to carry the baby to term.

I'm going to have to assume you are referring to the 'morning after' pill, but if you are not and can provide a link with details, I'd appreciate it.

1. It would be her choice, as it currently is by law. But if I had say in the matter without 'infringing on her rights' I would try and convince her to have it, if only to put it up for adoption.

2. If my understanding is correct, you are saying they already know the baby will die, which I am also curious as to how that is possible so early. Not calling you a liar or anything. But, if it will die and we are positively certain of that, I probably would advise her to address that in the least dangerous way possible and as soon as possible. I wouldn't feel very good about it, but the thought of putting the woman I love at risk for a child we are positively certain will not surprise is just not worth it. But again, it is still her choice.

3. This last one would never happen. It's just not possible with my girlfriend, she adores children and loves life.

Of course, that wouldn't be very useful to you so in the spirit of hypotheticals, if she were threatening suicide, that's a symptom of other problems that need to be treated and the first thing I would do is see to getting her the help she needs. Hopefully along the way we'd reach some form of comprise or understanding. 'Course, abortion being a 'woman's right' and all I guess I couldn't really stop that if I wanted to right?

I hold the law to higher standards than an individual because the law applies to all of us. I think abortion is abhorred, that doesn't mean I think those that have had them are abhorred. I'm not 'a stop at nothing RTL'er who thinks abortions should be illegal at all cost.' Given the choice, I'd make it illegal but I'm not given that choice. You ask for my opinions and I give them freely.

I am happy that we can all agree on education, birth control, and adoption as alternatives to abortion. I consider that more important than additional legislation. Maybe given enough information people will make the right choice on their own?

I can only hope.

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 6:18 PM

Quote:
I'm not sure who loses here, Magon for mindlessly marching in without reading, or Happy for reading, and then marching in anyway.

We're devoted fans to an 8 year old TV show that didn't even survive it's first season. Calling each other losers really has no meaning

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Thursday, February 3, 2011 7:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:
Do you always bring out the 'troll' accusation when you feel backed into a corner? BTW troll bait would imply you are the troll

I wasn't the first, or even the second to call kiki a troll, but I guess that was improper use of the term 'troll bait.' I'm still relatively new to these internet 'isms'

I must be a really fascinating guy that you must ask me all these questions right? I'm okay with that

But if I continue to share these personal hypothetical's type stuff, I'd just appreciate if you would read and ask questions were you were unsure rather than jumping to conclusions.

For the record, it is my (admittedly limited) understanding (and correct me if I am wrong) that the 'abortion pill' is not an 'abortion pill' but means of ensuring a zygote does not successfully attach to the wall and begin growing. In a sense, not dissimilar to birth control pills many women take regularly. The 'abortion pill' topic is something I would have too look into further before making a case for or against it. So I'm not sure if my hypothetical answers for that will actually be of any use to you but here goes.

Quote:
So a few scenarios, you and your girlfriend, would you prevent her from using the abortion pill if.....

she was raped
you found out the zygote was not going to make it to term because of genetic abnormalities
she threatens to commit suicide is she has to carry the baby to term.

I'm going to have to assume you are referring to the 'morning after' pill, but if you are not and can provide a link with details, I'd appreciate it.

1. It would be her choice, as it currently is by law. But if I had say in the matter without 'infringing on her rights' I would try and convince her to have it, if only to put it up for adoption.

2. If my understanding is correct, you are saying they already know the baby will die, which I am also curious as to how that is possible so early. Not calling you a liar or anything. But, if it will die and we are positively certain of that, I probably would advise her to address that in the least dangerous way possible and as soon as possible. I wouldn't feel very good about it, but the thought of putting the woman I love at risk for a child we are positively certain will not surprise is just not worth it. But again, it is still her choice.

3. This last one would never happen. It's just not possible with my girlfriend, she adores children and loves life.

Of course, that wouldn't be very useful to you so in the spirit of hypotheticals, if she were threatening suicide, that's a symptom of other problems that need to be treated and the first thing I would do is see to getting her the help she needs. Hopefully along the way we'd reach some form of comprise or understanding. 'Course, abortion being a 'woman's right' and all I guess I couldn't really stop that if I wanted to right?

I hold the law to higher standards than an individual because the law applies to all of us. I think abortion is abhorred, that doesn't mean I think those that have had them are abhorred. I'm not 'a stop at nothing RTL'er who thinks abortions should be illegal at all cost.' Given the choice, I'd make it illegal but I'm not given that choice. You ask for my opinions and I give them freely.

I am happy that we can all agree on education, birth control, and adoption as alternatives to abortion. I consider that more important than additional legislation. Maybe given enough information people will make the right choice on their own?

I can only hope.

Thanks for your response, Happy. As stated before, the idea behind hypotheticals is to try and get someone to work out what they would do in a particular circumstance, as opposed to having general ideas on things. I'm not actually that interested in your life, but I appreciate your responses.

I didn't think I was jumping to conclusions, but trying to extrapolate from what you had already said.

I have no concerns with individual's having strong beliefs re abortion, but I do when they try and push for legislation around this issue, particulary those who want a blanket ban. It's nice for you that your life seems secure and happy, but its worth remembering that not all people have these luxuries.

Those scenarios that I put up are common ones, albeit testing on an embryo that early usually only takes place under IVF procedures. Sometimes people use IVF as a way of testing for genetic abnormalities if they have a history, so that only 'healthy' embryos are implanted, which of course relies on the destruction of the abnormal embryo.

You may have disliked Ikiki's tone, but his/her questions were pertinent, I believe, trying to ascertain whether your views place status of the unborn over the born because of an emotional response to a foetus.

re the abortion pill http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/abortio
n_pill_ru486_%28mifepristone%29

the morning after pill http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Contrac
eption_emergency_contraception may also destroy an embryo that has not yet impanted.

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Friday, February 4, 2011 3:03 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Well then... let me be trollish.

None of you have said whether you think its ok to use abortion as a form of birth control.

What?

Is it ok to frak around all the time then oops... caught preggers... get an abortion?

Is that not disgusting?

Yes. It is a right. I acknowledge this. But a right abused, much of the time.

And why?

Cus its too damn hard.

Its tough to raise a child.

So no worries. Just suck it out.

I keep saying this, and no one listens. Its such a simple word.

Responsibility.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

Wulf, I hate to break the bad news to you, but abortion IS a form of birth control. It's also the only one that's 100% effective. Sorry if that offends your itty-bitty feewings, but it's the truth.

I don't find it to be the PREFERRED method of birth control, but it is *A* method.

You keep complaining about it being a right, but a right that's "abused" too often. I've never once heard you voice the same concerns about free speech, freedom of religion, or (GASP!) your second-amendment rights ever "being abused". So you say three abortions for one woman is too many. How many guns is too many? What's the limit? At what point do you start recommending other treatments (or "shots") for gun nuts?

Every right gets abused by someone. I get tired of being told that that's a valid reason to rescind that right.

I'm also a little disturbed by Happy's suggestion that someone contemplating abortion take 9 months to think about it. It almost sounds like he's advocating full-term abortions, which is (I think) *not* what he's really pushing!

This Space For Rent!

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Friday, February 4, 2011 6:27 AM

Quote:
I'm also a little disturbed by Happy's suggestion that someone contemplating abortion take 9 months to think about it. It almost sounds like he's advocating full-term abortions, which is (I think) *not* what he's really pushing!

Nah, that'd be 9 month's thinking about adoption. I favor adoption as an alternative to abortion.

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Friday, February 4, 2011 6:34 AM

Get a room you two.

Quote:
Dreamtrove: (about 80 posts ago)
This thread ...was created to illustrate that people were sheep who would consume each other at the drop of a hat by a ten second post.

ETA: Don't shoot the messenger.

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Friday, February 4, 2011 6:50 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
(about 80 posts ago)
This thread ...was created to illustrate that people were sheep who would consume each other at the drop of a hat by a ten second post.

Consider that some people don't care about your illustration, or that posting in this thread means they are "sheep" in your opinion.

Some people are secure enough that they don't need your approval to discuss the topic of abortion.

-------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, February 4, 2011 7:08 AM

Oh I'm well aware of that, lol. But like you said, does that make it worse that I knowingly entered? Perhaps I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing... but that would imply deception. Maybe I'm indulging in some 'last-word-itis' or maybe I'm a good Shepard who don't give a flying flock.

While I agree with you that our time and energies can be better spent in other directions, there's no reason we can't pursue multiple directions at once. It's unfortunate that this topic tends to take presidence over other issues we are more likely to agree on, yet ironically seem more difficult to change. C'est la vie.

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Friday, February 4, 2011 7:28 AM

Oh has there has been a dearth of Abortion threads?!?! Phlease. Know the dif. between a real debate and a divisive wedge issue. I know people hate being had, and avoid examining if we are easily manipulated sheep. Our failure to examine this is what makes us easily manipulated sheep.

Happy,

If a wolf in sheep's clothing well aware of a minefield intentionally walks into it, and explodes, he's a sheep. It's an exercise in

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Friday, February 4, 2011 7:33 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Happy,

I want to know why you won't fight with me.

-------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, February 4, 2011 10:57 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Apologies to Oscar Hammerstein II.....

Raindrops and roses, but not for this baby
No birthday parties and no first love dating
Just acid and scizzors, and a bloody mess that it brings
Abortion is one of my favorite things

Forceps and fetuses and placentas and mittens
Disposing of humans just like unwanted kittens
Bright yellow waste pails filled with dead fetal beings
Abortion is one of my favorite things

When a newborn cries, when a mom sees her healthy child
When I'm feeling sad
I simply remember my favorite abortion clinic
And then I don't feel so bad

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Friday, February 4, 2011 10:58 AM

JONGSSTRAW

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Friday, February 4, 2011 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Quote:
I'm not sure who loses here, Magon for mindlessly marching in without reading, or Happy for reading, and then marching in anyway.

We're devoted fans to an 8 year old TV show that didn't even survive it's first season. Calling each other losers really has no meaning

^^^This.

Really, DT - pointing out what we should care about on a fansite devoted to a long-dead TV show that didn't survive a half a season is as ludicrous as... well, as coming here to rant about people watching TV.

This Space For Rent!

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Friday, February 4, 2011 11:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Apologies to Oscar Hammerstein II.....

Raindrops and roses, but not for this baby
No birthday parties and no first love dating
Just acid and scizzors, and a bloody mess that it brings
Abortion is one of my favorite things

Forceps and fetuses and placentas and mittens
Disposing of humans just like unwanted kittens
Bright yellow waste pails filled with dead fetal beings
Abortion is one of my favorite things

When a newborn cries, when a mom sees her healthy child
When I'm feeling sad
I simply remember my favorite abortion clinic
And then I don't feel so bad

I find this horribly offensive. Phrasing and vowel placement can make or break a piece of music. But nooooo all we needs is for teh wordz to rhyme right? Let me help you out here. I'll italicize changes.

Raindrops and roses, but not for this baby
No birthday parties and no first love dating
Acid and scizzors, a mess that it brings
Abortion is one of my favorite things

Forceps, fetuses, placentas and mittens
Disposing of humans like unwanted kittens
Bright yellow pails filled with dead fetal beings
Abortion is one of my favorite things

When newborn cries, when a mom sees her, normal healthy child
I simply remember abortion clinics
And then I don't feel so (mild?)

And I think we've all learned a lesson here. rhythm is EVERY bit as important as rhyming. To state otherwise is asinine and offensive.

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Friday, February 4, 2011 1:22 PM

BYTEMITE

Abandon ship, we're going down. The fire has eaten through the hold and is approaching the gunpowder store.

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Friday, February 4, 2011 1:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Abandon ship, we're going down. The fire has eaten through the hold and is approaching the gunpowder store.

Lol.

This thread needs more cats

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Saturday, February 5, 2011 8:23 PM

HARDWARE

Regarding the soul argument:

the argument goes that if we can prove when the fetus gets a soul, they are a life. That life should be protected under the law.

What if we develop a test to show when a baby gets a soul. Then we find out that babies don't get a soul until they are 1 year old?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Saturday, February 5, 2011 8:48 PM

Quote:
Hardware
What if we develop a test to show when a baby gets a soul. Then we find out that babies don't get a soul until they are 1 year old?

That would be a most excellent question if this were a real debate. Alas, it's a trollbait thread, started by me to prove that people were sheep ;)

It was really my test to see if I should stay in RWED. The answer was a resounding NO, but I appear to still be here, which shows a lack of will power on my part. I think I'll go now.

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Saturday, February 5, 2011 9:06 PM

Or it shows that you're as much a "sheep" as you believe everyone else to be. Or that you're a troll.

Or maybe you're just human, like the rest of us. Sorry to shatter your illusions.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 5, 2011 9:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Regarding the soul argument:

the argument goes that if we can prove when the fetus gets a soul, they are a life. That life should be protected under the law.

What if we develop a test to show when a baby gets a soul. Then we find out that babies don't get a soul until they are 1 year old?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

Whose argument? Define "soul". Does a dog have a "soul"? Does a Republican? Is it okay for me to shoot Republicans if tests show that they don't have souls?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 6, 2011 4:33 AM