Just a whole.... I dunno.. 'Atlas Shrugged' moment by SignyM

America loves a winner!

1st thought - you really haven't read the book, and if you have, you need to read it again. The message was clearly lost on you.

2nd thought - go for it. America needs to wake up and open their eyes. No more nanny state.

THAT'll be your Atlas Shrugged moment.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, March 18, 2011 4:16 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I read the book, and I "got" the message: the survival of the whole universe depends on a few manly men (and women) who dare to think big and dominate the world scene with their big brass balls and tons and tons of money.

My message... which was apparently lost on YOU

(no surprise there)... is that the world really runs on people who WORK for a living. People who produce, who wrench the stuff of a good life from raw materials and energy and turn it into a decent life for everyone. Who provide goods and services that societies actually need to exist and progress: Caring for members, transmitting hard-won information, and looking into the future. Not some jag-off who just runs money through his fingers and pockets a few along the way.

Irony was never your strong point. Or thinking either, for that matter. I'm willing to have my Atlas Shrugged moment, if you're willing to have yours. Let's see who wins.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that in a face-off between the "financial advisor" who makes money whether his clients gain or lose, and the teacher who at least minds the kids during the day so parents can go to work and earn a living...

...your "services" would pretty much fall off the bottom of the scale.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 4:38 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I read the book, and I "got" the message: the survival of the whole universe depends on a few manly men (and women) who dare to think big and dominate the world scene with their big brass balls and tons and tons of money.

No. You did not get the message.

This comes to mind, actually, when I think of 'your' kind....

Think about it.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, March 18, 2011 4:39 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I was on my way out at 8 PM last night, and ran into a couple of co-workers who were also staying late just to catch up.

We used to call that "love" time - wanting to get the job done although we knew no overtime or other compensation would be forthcoming.

Civil service is just like any other line of work. You got good folks who want to do the job right, and those who are not so much. I was fortunate to work with folks who took pride in their jobs and were effective and innovative.

This sort'a highlights the problem with generalization. Not all (or even most) civil servants are lazy. Not all (or even most)capitalists are evil moneygrubbers. Not all (or even most) folks with a liberal bent are screaming Socialists.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, March 18, 2011 4:50 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rappy, YOU are the person on the escalator. You couldn't change a roll of toilet paper on your own, if you had to.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 4:53 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
We used to call that "love" time - wanting to get the job done although we knew no overtime or other compensation would be forthcoming. Civil service is just like any other line of work. You got good folks who want to do the job right, and those who are not so much. I was fortunate to work with folks who took pride in their jobs and were effective and innovative. This sort'a highlights the problem with generalization

Nonetheless, peeps like Rappy continue to generalize. And more and more people seem to think that the generalization reflects reality. (see above)

A lot of peeps on the right want to have their cake and eat it too. Just saying... a lesson in reality might not be amiss.

Quote:
Not all (or even most)capitalists are evil moneygrubbers

I'll get into why capitalists HAVE to be greedy bastards or get swallowed whole by the system another time. FREM: It's not a "people" problem it's a system problem.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 5:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Siggy, I gotta say, despite our occasionally bitter philosophical (but I've noticed, rarely practical) disagreements here...

You Go Girl!

I think it's a fine idea, and I am quite sure the IWW would be happy to assist you in co-ordinating it - just remember how "ugly" the other side is willing to play and see to your safety as well, ok ?

ETA: Actually I think your concept is kind of taking a systems problem and MAKING it a people one - by showing undeniably that systems *depend* on people in order to function, and we should treat those people as human beings instead of draft animals, so nyaaaah!

-F

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Friday, March 18, 2011 5:29 PM

Siggy,

Anti-govt people aren't opposed to these govt jobs being done. They just don't want those jobs being done by the govt.

I think we need schools and teachers, for example. I just don't think schools should be owned and run by the govt, and that teachers should be govt employees.

But hey, you want to strike? That's fine. Go for it. Just don't put me in prison if I want to strike from my taxes, and we got a deal!

Actually, I hope you strike for a very long time. Cause you know what? You're right. The jobs still need to be done, so we'll just find other people to pay to do the same jobs. But this time, we the people will hire them and the world will keep on ticking, and we'll see how superfluous govt middle management really is.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 7:18 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

CTS, you go do what you think you can do. Let me know when you "the (so-called) people*" succeed. (*As opposed to the rest of us who aren't really people, I suppose, just schlubs who're working for a living)

FREM: The difference I think is that in govt you're allowed to be a person but under corporatism you're required to be a sociopath. AFA the IWW and safety: Thank ye.

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Friday, March 18, 2011 8:14 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

You don't think there should be public education? I don't know where to begin with that illogic. Oh, wait.

That'll do.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 12:18 AM

These things get done even where there's not a govt. to do them. I know, because of where I live. Every town in this area has virtually no govt. services. So, volunteers step up and fill the spot. There's no overtime, because there's no pay. When someone needs a new ambulance, everyone pitches is, because they might need an ambulance some day.

If the schools closed this would fill in as well. I remember a few years back when the Congo went bankrupt and stopped paying. No one stopped working. Everything went on as normal.

What matters is that the baker bakes bread, and the farmer brings him wheat, but even the teachers and professors and garbage men went on. If they didn't, someone took their place. Overall, I think people have a survival instinct.

The problem with wage labor is that it is doing it for the wages. There was a case last year in the city where two EMTs didn't help a women I think it was in a coffee shop, because they were off the clock, so she died.

That just wouldn't happen here, because they're never *on* the clock to begin with. I guess you could say it's anarchy. It's just that anarchy doesn't look like how the flock envisions it.

We live in a society that works fine without anyone running it. Our only complaints here, are when someone tries to run things. People talk about how much better it would be if NY seceded. I think it would be even better if we seceded from NY.

We also live in a nation that kills 3 million people a year. A million with guns, a million with drugs and you can figure out where the third million is coming from. Sure, it's not always our hand pulling the trigger, but it's all a side effect of this society, which is run on a budget of 3 trillion dollars, of money taken by force from the people. That means it costs roughly a million dollars a head to kill people. This is a net result of govt.

I once was in a very nearly fatal crash. A man saw me, and called the local volunteer EMTs, who rushed me to a hospital, where I was stitched up by a doctor, who charged me $80. It wasn't minor work, I will skip the gorey details, it was as major a job as I can recall reading about.

Doctors are doctors because they want to heal the sick. Who would do that for the money? I mean, they work 18 hours a day. But more than that, if there weren't a giant govt. sponsored union in place called the AMA, many other people would be there doing it. And yeah, some would be unqualified, but hell, some are unqualified right now. It's up to the hospital to not hire these guys, and us not to go to them. There have been some cases here where doctors have had their licenses revoked. The stories always read something like "after botching 147 operations that lead to patients deaths" and I'm left to wonder... what happens to the guy who only kills 70 of his own patients? Perhaps it's "Take a week off Jack, go to the Bahamas, you need to unwind. We know you're trying, just, try to kill fewer, it's an embarassment, if you could keep it to under one a month..."

So, yes, chaos is possible, but so it not chaos. I think that one thing that would help is if we could see the record of our doctor. How many people he's killed. That would help.

Teachers, what the kids thought of them, whether or not they learned anything. Then you could send your kids to their class, or not. Or rather, the kids could go, or not.

Sorry, I digress, but it's all part of the same concept.

ETA: Dmaan, I'll jump on this bandwagon. I'm vehemently opposed to public education. I'm not opposed to some form of education, just this one, though I don't think it's necessary at all.

The US spends a trillion dollars a year on public education which as far as I can tell yields a negative result: Children would learn more spending their time doing anything else. We spend radically more than any other nation in the world.

Public school is, like so many of the deeply held beliefs of the sheeple, not very old. It may pretend to be so, but, just a cursory search, it seems majorly to be a product of the new deal. Yet in the 19th c. when virtually no one had a public education, our rate of innovation per citizen was much higher than it is today.

Want to test this hypothesis? Ask any random kid what % of everything he knows he learned in a classroom. Then consider what % of his otherwise free time is spent in school.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 2:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
CTS, you go do what you think you can do. Let me know when you "the (so-called) people*" succeed.

Govt employees gotta take that prolonged vacation first. THEN we can do what I think we can do. Ball's in your court.

Quote:
(*As opposed to the rest of us who aren't really people, I suppose, just schlubs who're working for a living)

Of course you're people. Govt employees are people.

What I said was it would be nice if such people were hired by "we the people," instead of by the government. And if you think "we the people" ARE the government, then you have no business complaining repeatedly about how corrupt the government IS, right?

No matter how fantastic you think a hypothetical ideal government could be, you and I know we don't have a government that represents "we the people" right NOW.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 2:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

There's growing underground support for just such a "general strike", Signy. By state law, Texas teachers aren't allowed to strike, but I know several who are spreading the word and trying to organize a large-scale "sick out". They aren't allowed to join unions, either, so this is all very off the books. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 3:20 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Rappy, YOU are the person on the escalator. You couldn't change a roll of toilet paper on your own, if you had to.

You're the one who seems to think that life can't go on with out government intruding into our lives at ever turn.

The concept of having anyone else do things for you is so clearly ingrained in your psych,... who else would change the toilet paper but the individual ?

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 4:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The concept of having anyone else do things for you is so clearly ingrained in your psych

Rappy, do YOU make your steel? Did you make your computer chips and boards? Did you string the communication lines, cut your own wood, spin your own thread to weave your own cloth, and plant your own food? In complex societies, everyone does for everyone else. It is only right whingers who think they've succeeded "on their own" like in Atlas Shrugged, where the self-titled gods go off in a huff to build their own society... YEAH! I'd like to see them try! Let's put em on a boat and set them adrift!

Anyway, obviously someone fed and clothed you were young, taught you. Someone picks up your garbage, brings water to your tap.... I shouldn't have to point out the myriad of ways that people "do" for you, but apparently I do.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 4:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
The concept of having anyone else do things for you is so clearly ingrained in your psych
Rappy, do YOU make your steel? Did you make your computer chips and boards? Did you string the communication lines, cut your own wood, spin your own thread to weave your own cloth, and plant your own food? In complex societies, everyone does for everyone else.

Siggy, you know very well that Rappy meant *the government* when he said "anyone else."

The govt does not make our steel, computer chips and boards, string communication lines, cut our wood, spin our thread, weave our cloth, plant our food.

Redirecting the argument, if government employees were to go on strike, people would simply add govt services to the list of specialized services you just gave us (thanks) that are managed just fine without govt intervention.

Meaning, if the service is indeed necessary and desired (e.g. teaching), govt employees who perform that service would still have a job. They'd just have a new boss.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 4:56 AM

No. You don't know. I think you are thinking of a different book. ROFLMAO.....you are hilarious.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
1st thought - you really haven't read the book, and if you have, you need to read it again. The message was clearly lost on you.

2nd thought - go for it. America needs to wake up and open their eyes. No more nanny state.

THAT'll be your Atlas Shrugged moment.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

HILARIOUS......Should have title this thread

"Just another...I dunno".......and left it at that. lol

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 5:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Siggy,

Anti-govt people aren't opposed to these govt jobs being done. They just don't want those jobs being done by the govt.

I think we need schools and teachers, for example. I just don't think schools should be owned and run by the govt, and that teachers should be govt employees.

But hey, you want to strike? That's fine. Go for it. Just don't put me in prison if I want to strike from my taxes, and we got a deal!

Actually, I hope you strike for a very long time. Cause you know what? You're right. The jobs still need to be done, so we'll just find other people to pay to do the same jobs. But this time, we the people will hire them and the world will keep on ticking, and we'll see how superfluous govt middle management really is.

Me likes.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 5:19 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
The concept of having anyone else do things for you is so clearly ingrained in your psych
Rappy, do YOU make your steel? Did you make your computer chips and boards? Did you string the communication lines, cut your own wood, spin your own thread to weave your own cloth, and plant your own food? In complex societies, everyone does for everyone else. It is only right whingers who think they've succeeded "on their own" like in Atlas Shrugged, where the self-titled gods go off in a huff to build their own society... YEAH! I'd like to see them try! Let's put em on a boat and set them adrift!

You're confusing the role of the individual and the role of government. It's as if you think they are one in the same. Maybe I should have said " having others do AND THINK for you ... ".

Quote:

Anyway, obviously someone fed and clothed you were young, taught you. Someone picks up your garbage, brings water to your tap.... I shouldn't have to point out the myriad of ways that people "do" for you, but apparently I do.

The concept of freedom and self determination is clearly lost on you. This isn't a matter of being nursed, clothed and taught. Such necessities aren't done by government,are they ? No, it's done by your FAMILY. Those in your community, and not drawn up by some bureaucratic worker bee, far away in some cavernous gov building.

Again, you're clearly confused as to the message of Atlas Shrugged, and seem to think that the only options are a overbearing, intrusive, fascists government, or complete and total anarchy. It's a false dichotomy, and not what Ayn Rand or conservatives promote.

No one says gov workers aren't necessary, but that there are too many to do the job and often get paid too much for what they do.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 5:41 AM

My posts are too long.

I grew up in a corner of the world that did not have:
Public Education
Television
Police
Socialized medicine
Interstate highways
War
Homeland security
Etc.

And everything worked just fine. People were not more ignorant because they had no education, they were not more sick without govt. health they were not starving because of lack of assistance.

Change hasn't been good.

A couple of positive changes:

Firefly.

Um. Trying to think of a second.

Oh, internet. Netscape, or more specifically, Mozilla, which is really responsible

And genetic engineering, and the various medical advancements that came out of that.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 6:19 AM

America loves a winner!

Don't forget, you can *thank AlGore ( government worker that he was ) for the internet.

* Yes, I meant 'thank'.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 6:43 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Rap - do you mean THANK?

And - since I know this FACT has been pointed out to you before - ONE MORE TIME - Al Gore never claimed he invented the internet.

Look it up at SNOPES: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

Seriously - will you EVER have ANYTHING of value to post? Because at this point, I'm skipping past most of your posts like I do with PN.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 6:45 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I grew up in a corner of the world that did not have:
Public Education
Television
Police
Socialized medicine
Interstate highways
War
Homeland security
Etc."

Did they have corporations?

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 6:48 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

CTS - oh you who do not vote and do not believe in ANY government - not even a democratically elected one - you really can't complain about the government there is if you're not willing to do anything about what exists.

And I do have to say - you still seem to be stuck on your "childish" "black and white" (your words) mindset. Despite the good they DO provide, since no government is 100.00000% PERFECT for EVERYBODY 100.00000% of the TIME, the ONLY government that's good AT ALL is NO government. Do you think you'll ever grow up?

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 6:54 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Don't forget, you can think AlGore ( government worker that he was ) for the internet.

Yes, you can thank him, along with all the other government employees who made it possible.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 6:58 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Yes - the internet was originally a DARPA project.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 7:11 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Just a general comment on Atlas Shrugged - it's the 'great man' myth of history where manly men and manly women 'Make Things Happen'.

But I'd truly like to see Alexander the Great without his army, and the civilization that could afford to give him one. Would he be so great? I'd like to see plantation owners without their millions of slaves. Well, we have seen plantation owners without their slaves, and they and their plantations are no more. Or Henry Ford without his assembly line workers. Richard and Maurice McDonald (McDonald's) without their servers - and customers. And so on.

The 'great leaders' and 'great captains' would simply not exist without the support of the society they live in. They would disappear in a POOF. On the other hand if they all disappeared - we would continue on.

So who, exactly, is more essential to 'Make Things Happen?

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 8:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Rap - do you mean THANK?

And - since I know this FACT has been pointed out to you before - ONE MORE TIME - Al Gore never claimed he invented the internet.

Look it up at SNOPES: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

Seriously - will you EVER have ANYTHING of value to post? Because at this point, I'm skipping past most of your posts like I do with PN.

Wrong...his own lips not out of context.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 9:16 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So Rap - you're Kaneman? Who else are you besides Kaneman and QQ? And why do you need to many sockpuppets?

BTW - since I'm not at home and will not be for some time your video is useless - there's no sound on this computer. Be a good chap and get me a full transcript, OK?

Oh wait, nevermind, I got the full transcript and guess what - he was quoted word for word in SNOPES. And that quote was addressed in SNOPES. Once again, you have not a single fact in your argument, not you or any of your sockpuppets.

I am beginning to think that the problem is not that you are illiterate and can't read, but that you simply can't think. Because clearly, he was talking about taking the "initiative in Congress", not about inventing it or building it or creating it single-handedly or any of the nonsense you cling to.

Well. it looks like I'm just going to have to totally ignore all of your posts because they are just a big fucking waste of my time.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 9:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"I grew up in a corner of the world that did not have:
Public Education
Television
Police
Socialized medicine
Interstate highways
War
Homeland security
Etc."

Did they have corporations?

A few, not big ones like no Walmart. We had electricity, and that's sort of like a corporation, except it's govt. sponsors. And the phone company. Similar deal. Yes, corporations, but not this particular type of Halliburton, Bechtel, etc. I don't even think there was a McDonald's. I'm sure there wasn't actually. We used to eat at Pharmacies. Every town had one. Not Walgreens drug america style, little corner shops, where you could get food and a soda, and penicillin. I realize this means I grew up in the 19th c. but that's really how it was. What the rest of y'all think of as the 20th c. mostly didn't come here. 'cept for cars. We had cars.

Yes, society has changed a lot.

Change isn't good.

My [Return] key on the Mac just died. Not sure why. It doesn't want to press down.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Yes - the internet was originally a DARPA project.

That's up to debate. Our internet grew out of DARPA, but the web really came out of CERN in Switzerland. I remember DARPAnet.

I think that largely there weren't that many *big* corporations, and when I think about it, big corporations are the creation of big govt, because big govt contracts makes them possible. Without assistance by the govt, Walmart could not have replaced mom and pop, because mom and pop don't have to ship everything in by truck, or ship it from China.

We had Woolworth's. But it wasn't like Walmart. It didn't displace local shops, it just competed with them. Like Newberry's, it was a pretty cheapo place though, but nowhere near as cheapo as Walmart. I don't say "cheap" because I don't think any of them were ever "less expensive."

Other things there weren't: Druglords. In fact, few guns, very few guns, outside of a couple hunters. I remember drugs coming to town, but they didn't come with druglords at first. I think when they did, I was already on this board. I whined about it quite a bit.

It's been a downhill slide. I guess nothing here is actually *new*, it's just new to us, it used to live in the city, and eventually it crawled out here.

We don't have cell phones yet. No signal.

ETA: There were movies, but the theaters were all independently owned. Movies ran for 2 weeks, and if you missed them, they were gone forever.

Not having TV was no loss because there was not yet Firefly, and when there was, it was on DVD. Still don't have TV, but it's available. Just no point really. It arrived only months before the internet did.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 10:19 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Kiki, the whole book is basically a treatise and propaganda puff piece on the type of lameass "Better Men" bullshit which effectively started with that lunatic Plato, and over the years have given us such wonderful ideas as Feudalism, Fascism, The Caste System, and all that merry rot.
Not to mention being written by one of the worlds all time biggest hypocrites, and for that matter, badly.

So to me it's no different than those who wish to support racism holding up the turner diaries as some kind of noble work of art - just because it supports ones chosen beliefs doesn't make a badly written piece of hypocritical tripe any less what it is...

Also worth consideration is that not only those rapacious, murderous, exploitive "Captains of Industry", like Carnegie, Rockefeller and the like, many of whom WERE rabidly pro-fascist, see also, here.
http://carnival-of-anarchy.blogspot.com/2008/01/smedley-butler-and-bus
iness-plot.html

But also would-be tyrants of any stripe - without their slobbering jackboots to carry out their orders, are nothing but one more loudmouth in a sea of plenty.

And the world seems to have cottoned to that fact, as recent events show, and is conspiring itself across borders, nationalities, religions and any other barrier to remove that particular tool from the arsenal of those who would make us their slaves.

As for the rest, sure, some of the middle management and beauracracy could use a bit of trim - but even as an Anarchist I fervently maintain there ARE some infrastructures that are damn well worth keeping, and well worth paying for, and at competitive rates.

Now, some things I would rather have independent and directly funded - the functions handled by the FDA, for example, rather than via pipelines so easily corrupted, but this isn't as simple a matter as declaring something evil just because it is currently done by a government, especially when it's a necessary function of a proper society whether it even HAS a government or not.

Of course, a shutdown-walkout strike would be also kind of a litmus test in that respect as well, what could we get along without, what couldn't we - what should we keep, what MUST we keep, all those questions come to roost in addition to how we treat the people doing this work.

And alas that I am out of time to go on about this...

-Frem

PS. Did I mention I really, passionately, hate "Randroids", like, a lot ?

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 10:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Just a general comment on Atlas Shrugged - it's the 'great man' myth of history where manly men and manly women 'Make Things Happen'.

I never read the book, everyone who I knew who got into Ayn Rand became completely self-absorbed and useless to those around them, so I gave her a miss. Just curious, are you saying it *perpetuates* the great man myth or *challenges* it? (I agree it's a myth)

Plantations still full of slaves though, just immigrants, or overseas. Out west they have these giant machines, but they weren't slave states anyway. Here people still farm. There's some ridiculous regulations on what farmers have to do now, these automated process stuff, because it's not making the food more healthy, but less so, so we shop at the christian stores when we can, which is anytime 'cept winter.

A lot of slave plantations moved overseas also. It's strange, because there aren't more mouths to feed, and there's far more farmland than needs to be to feed the people. I've done the math on this one several times, that's why I keep saying the human race is nowhere near the limit of our carrying capacity. It's a strange economic game that's being played.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So Rap - you're Kaneman?

No, I'm sure he's not. Rap is from Georgia, it's just not gentlemanly to be Kaneman. I don't think it's that Connecticut either, but it's definitely not southern. Kaneman probably comes from the City. Or a City. I'm dubious of Kaneman coming from Tanzania. Folks with connections to Africa usually comment on the African debates, those without them don't, or don't do so in an informed way.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 10:40 AM

Frem

Thanks. That was the review of the book I was looking for ;) It's funny how many neofascists love Plato. I'll have to reread. I missed something.

You can't have funding without handing someone power. The FDA is a disaster. Sure, there should be food inspection, but an easy way to do that is make food local. No one is going to buy food from Mr. Plague. Pretty soon local freelance inspectors will come up. As for the drug side, the FDA is captain of FAIL.

As for hospitals, when I grew up here, the doctor was 3 bucks a visit. More serious stuff you went to the hospital, it might cost you a couple hundred. Thats how it still works in most countries, like how college tuition, you probably paid something similar to me, 600 a semester. Now kids are paying a quarter million or something absurd, and the education has gone *downhill* and *still* the university has the gaul to call up as ask me for money for their scholarship fund.

If ever there was a scam: Scholarship fund. That's money that they intend to give to themselves for letting some poor person in, who will not actually cost them any money. They don't hire extra teachers, they just bring in an extra chair, and the poor kids can never afford the dorms, even with scholarship, so they literally cost the university nothing. [/rant]

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:07 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So Rap - you're Kaneman? Who else are you besides Kaneman and QQ? And why do you need to many sockpuppets?

No, brain donor. I'm me. I have no 'sockpuppets'. And who the hell is 'QQ' ?

Quote:

BTW - since I'm not at home and will not be for some time your video is useless - there's no sound on this computer. Be a good chap and get me a full transcript, OK?

Not MY video.

Quote:

Oh wait, nevermind, I got the full transcript and guess what - he was quoted word for word in SNOPES. And that quote was addressed in SNOPES. Once again, you have not a single fact in your argument, not you or any of your sockpuppets.

Not my argument, and if you can't take a joke, then f-o.

Quote:

I am beginning to think that the problem is not that you are illiterate and can't read, but that you simply can't think. Because clearly, he was talking about taking the "initiative in Congress", not about inventing it or building it or creating it single-handedly or any of the nonsense you cling to.

Well. it looks like I'm just going to have to totally ignore all of your posts because they are just a big fucking waste of my time.

I can't think in mindless group think, like you. That much is obvious.

Your life IS a fucking waste.

And atheist kittens are born with their eyes OPEN.

Yours clearly remain closed. Pity.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Do you think you'll ever grow up?

Don't give in to your inner bully. You're better than that.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 12:14 PM

Quote:
Frem: but even as an Anarchist I fervently maintain there ARE some infrastructures that are damn well worth keeping, and well worth paying for, and at competitive rates.

What are they? The infrastructures that are well worth keeping with taxpayer money?

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 12:34 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

No, I'm sure he's not. Rap is from Georgia, it's just not gentlemanly to be Kaneman. Kaneman probably comes from the City. Or a City.

There are cities in Georgia. Hell, we have professional sports here, and even hosted the Olympics.

Sheesh.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
...everyone who I knew who got into Ayn Rand became completely self-absorbed and useless to those around them, so I gave her a miss.

I can't stand Rand or Objectivism myself. They remind me of fundies, except with even less compassion, if that is possible.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 1:46 PM

America loves a winner!

I guess some folks don't really want to answer the question...

" Who owns your life. You? Or the government ? "

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

No, I'm sure he's not. Rap is from Georgia, it's just not gentlemanly to be Kaneman. Kaneman probably comes from the City. Or a City.

There are cities in Georgia. Hell, we have professional sports here, and even hosted the Olympics.

Sheesh.

Defending Rap is like trying to help a beached shark.

Been to Georgia, more than a couple times. In NY, the City means NYC. A city, I meant, somewhere like NY, like, LA. Okay, maybe there's a degenerate subculture in Atlanta. They had to get CNN from somewhere

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 1:55 PM

KIRKULES

There was a time when government employees got the respect they deserved and it was because they did jobs that the private sector couldn’t or wouldn’t do. They got paid less than their counterparts in the private sector and in exchange they got job security and good benefits. Now almost every city in the USA has hundreds of employees doing work that could be done by private companies and they are not only getting the great benefits of Gov. work but they are getting paid more than those that pay their wages. You need to remember that no mater how productive a Gov. employee is they do not create the Money that they receive, that money is earned by those in the private sector that pay taxes. Those in the public sector that think they have it rough should take the advice I give those in the private sector that don’t like the deal their employer is giving them, go get another job, quit complaining and take a chance. You’ve become so comfortable with big daddy government taking care of you, I know it seems impossible to take care of yourself, but there are millions of us out here in the real world doing just that.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 2:45 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Defending Rap is like trying to help a beached shark.

Been to Georgia, more than a couple times. In NY, the City means NYC. A city, I meant, somewhere like NY, like, LA. Okay, maybe there's a degenerate subculture in Atlanta. They had to get CNN from somewhere

Um.. thanks ?

And to clarify, I'm not comparing the ATL to the major metropoli of the world, but just reminding y'all, ... it ain't Dogpatch, USA.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 2:52 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Don't give in to your inner bully. You're better than that."

I am actually serious. I find people interesting. Like a dog worrying a bone, I try to figure 'them' (that's you, and others) out. I can't say why, I just do. (Whether I will eventually succeed is a matter of debate.)

I see a constant trend in your posts, which for lack of a better description I would call pathologically oppositional. It doesn't matter what is it, if it has an 'authority' attached to it in any way, even if it is an authority of significant knowledge, experience or expertise, you are opposed.

On top of that you engage in a lot of black/ white thinking to get to your desired (oppositional) end.

That's a great way to go down the wrong path on a lot of things.

For example, since no government (authority) is perfect you oppose ANY government at all. That's pretty black and white. You hold up Somalia with no government to be to be an ideal, a better place to live than... oh, Denmark. But you would NOT say that the Somalia model, since it is NOT perfect, needs to be eliminated from consideration. That kind of judgment you reserve for anything that supports your intrinsically oppositional stance.

That's my provisional model about you for now. And it strikes me as being immature and kinda' --- stuck --- in some old, dead past.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 3:03 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

The "Great Man" theory of history is an actual theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man_theory

Atlas Shrugged is just a badly written (and very boring and frankly UNrealistic) setpiece that pretends to portray how that idea would work in modern life.

It's actually funny to me that Rap, who pretends to be so modern, is actually stuck in the mid 1800's ideologically, as is Wulf, who espouses the same idea rebranded as 'alpha' males and females.

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 3:41 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
My posts are too long.

I grew up in a corner of the world that did not have:
Public Education
Television
Police
Socialized medicine
Interstate highways
War
Homeland security
Etc.

And everything worked just fine. People were not more ignorant because they had no education, they were not more sick without govt. health they were not starving because of lack of assistance.

Where did you grow up, DT? And yes, your posts are often too long. Doesn't matter, people can read or skim or miss them as they choose.

Just to add, I grew up in a place that had government funded

television
public transport
utilities
hospitals
schools (including free tertiary ed)
housing

and it was a good place to live, not especially tyrannical, at least comparable to now when half these are now privately owned.

we still could criticise the government, think for ourselves, and had plenty of liberty

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 5:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Kiki, it's even worse than you know, one other reason I can't stand Rand, or the Randroids, is because the truth of it is so ugly most folk can't face it.
http://www.alternet.org/story/145819/?page=entire

THERE, is your John Galt - still think he's a good guy ?

And CTS, will get to your question next round, k ?

-F

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Saturday, March 19, 2011 5:17 PM