I'd like to discuss this theory rationally by AnthonyT

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Byte, don't jump ship - the agreement likely won't last! It never does, does it?

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:33 PM

Quote:
I explained some of the reasons why not a lot (I any) questions would be asked about the house and who occupied it, but that seems to have gone unnoticed even here, much less in the (I would say more ignorant) wider media. I saw some reporter standing next to the compound walls and waving to show how high they were. They were almost EXACTLY the same height as the compound walls around our home in Afghanistan. We didn’t have barbed wire at the top, I will give you, but the height of the compound walls, in two countries where many, many people live behind equally high walls, made me grimace when I saw it. Sure, Americans aren’t used to compound walls, but every American and other foreigner in Kabul lived that way, except the Russians. They all lived within ONE building, also surrounded by high compound walls.

Our house in Taiwan was surrounded by 8' brick walls topped with spikes. And that was in a "friendly" country!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:35 PM

Oh, and just because it's so fucking apropos, and because it's funny AND really fucking sad because it's so true, may I present Kliban's "The General's Game":

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:36 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
The government of Pakistan is different from the people of Pakistan. We're technically at war with the Pashtun, who live in Pakistan. We have some Pakistan forces we're working with, and we have a Pakistan president whose been on our side, but they're starting to turn against us as well.

That's not war; DT made the statement that we'd BEEN AT WAR WITH PAKISTAN for some time.

As to

Quote:
The public, mostly. Happy posted some response he read on a friend's facebook about how Pakistan ought to watch their backs less America decides to group them with Osama's friends, my parents are of the firm opinion we should turn Afghanistan AND Pakistan into glass... You hear enough whispering and hostility from the public and you start to wonder where it's coming from and who's feeding it.

The people aren’t the government; we don’t make the decision to go to war. If we did, we’d have been at war IN Afghanistan (not WITH Afghanistan) back when we first went there and we’d have finished back then, and never gone to Iraq. I’m saying it appears to me that what the governments are saying to one another is more like the usual posturing and saber rattling. Of course some people are head up enough to want to “nuke ‘em, nuke ‘em one and all” and sure aren’t whispering it! It’s the nature of some people...just as it is the nature of some of those at the ground zero celebrations to holler ugly things about bin Laden’s death. None of that means we’re going to war, and it doesn’t have to COME from anywhere nor be fed. It’s the citizenry pissed off; that doesn’t mean our government is considering invading Pakistan.

Me, I'd like to see 'em cut off all those billions going to Pakistan, at least until we have some semblance of belief that they are actually allies, rather than just fair-weather friends! Won't happen, but that's the "retaliation" I'D like to see, and others are calling for it too. But war? Not happening. In my opinion, not gonna. Or Iran.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:41 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Our house in Taiwan was surrounded by 8' brick walls topped with spikes. And that was in a "friendly" country!

And there you go. Most Americans know so little of the rest of the world that what is perfectly natural elsewhere says things to us which aren't even slightly related to reality...I've seen it so many times about so many things, and this "compound wall" thing really galled me!

As an aside, PN really is one sick sonofabitch. I actually almost started reading his post; luckily I got as far as his supposed "things admitted by the White House" and came to my senses. Whew! That was a close one! Think I'll go have some ice cream to celebrate those 5-10 minutes of my life that I saved!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 1:52 PM

Fair enough, but it's something to keep our eyes on I think.

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 4:44 PM

Mike,

that level of cynicism s worthy of Frem or PN, minus the blood and molech. I'm impressed. It's also pretty on target might one thing: Generals don't get injured in this sport, they spar by hit babies against the other general's babies.

Just curious: Mike, are you Taiwanese or an army brat?

Byte,

I think the AI could use a human hand, but I don't know if it needs a gatekeeper in an HMO sense. My opinion on the AI would really depend a lot on my analysis of the particular AI. The more links it had to the military industrial complex, the more suspicious of it I would be, but that wouldn't automatically doom it. After all, this information system we're using was a product of that complex.

John,

Quote:
Osama Bin Laden is an Israeli jew whose mother is a jew living in Israel, where only jews are allowed citizenship or land ownership. Osama Bin Laden made most of his $100-million fortune working for Israeli jewish diamond dealers. Al Qaeda is run entirely by jews in USA, like Adam Gadahn Perlman and Zbigniew Brezenski the founder of AllCIA with Osama Bin Laden (CIA code name Tim Osman). Barack Hussein Obama Soetoro has been a member of Al Qaeda since 1980, when he traveled to Pakistan to meet with Brezenski and Bin Laden.

Should not go under "things admitted by the white house."

Have you just had it? Do you need a stress break? If you're going to photoshop Bin Laden into places badly (is that a hawaiian shirt?) do something interesting, like Dancing with the Stars.

As for the gore shock value, it's a FAIL. There's people like me and Frem who have seen enough gore that it's going to have no effect on, and there are people here who it will have such a traumatic effect on that they won't read your post, but it's not going to make people stop in awe, it's just going to make them notice the blatant baiting, as if your posts contained links at the end that said the rest of this paragraph is contained at my zombie.com please sign in to read more...

Marfan syndrome? I won't totally discount that. It's not a very rare disease, esp. among the abnormally tall. I read a couple other diagnoses, and one was a lung disorder that he was treated for, which would be consistent.

People with major genetic damage to their structural system have widespread physical health problems, and so given his kidney problems and diabetes, it's possible that all of this fit Marfan's as easily as it would fit systematic opiate abuse. At this point, it's hard to tell what specifically killed him, but he was definitely not a well man. He had made several check ins to hospitals in his last year.

I seem to recall Condi singing Amazing Grace, I find this inconsistent with a collaborator. Cheney I would find it much easier to believe, and Hadley absolutely, and Wolfowitz. Elliott Abrams is a possible, I might throw another couple names in there for people who might have been inside guys. Silverstein is high on my list. Rummy possibly. Perle and Kristol, and I might throw Hillary in there, being as she was heading a committee constructing the Patriot act in Aug. a piece of legislation that had zero chance absent an event like 9.11. Anyone on the Patriot act committee or the PNAC committee is a suspect. Of course, with one or two inside guys, they can direct the rest of govt. to play ball with a game that, once played out, could be so costly to admit to, that everyone plays part in the cover up.

Picture what the cost would have been in November of 2001 if the US govt. came out and said "Hey, guys, we did it." Not only would the admin be impeached, the whole govt. would fall.

IMHO, WWIII has already begun, though I would agree that it takes another world power's involvement to make it official. At the moment it's just us against a muslim alliance. I still figure there are three other major world players: Russia, China and India.

Niki,

Fair enough, almost. Remember how I just said that we seem to have switched positions out of an emotional need? I think the poll would show the current emotional flare.

Let me apply a parallel: Remember how Bush's approval rating soared to 80ish after 9.11? That was because people were feeling very emotional and felt they *needed* a leader who would protect him. It didn't last very long, and six months later he was back down where he had been. It was an emotional reaction, not a logical one.

There is a solution though, if anyone cared enough to do it: You could go back through the earlier posts and see how many people said at some point "OBL is (already/probably) dead." I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to all of us. That was pretty much the impression that I was left with.

I'm on another forum where we're having the identical emotional argument, and I am certain that in that group, 100% of us had previously agreed that he was dead, so I am pretty sure about the emotional impact factor and the sway it has in this instance, and I suspect this is common human behavior. I can't speak for the members of the forum though, their record of the last 5 years or however long will have to speak for them. This is just the impression with which I was left.

Hence my surprise at the sudden jubilation over a death, which not only seemed wrong, but seemed like someone that at least a fair number of those excited over it had already suspected was dead. Then when it sparked in a similar manner on the other forum, I realized the degree of emotion that was involved, and so I decided to give it a rest.

Seems only three of us, John, Frem and myself reacted with "this is not news." Rap to his credit showed some doubt in his first post, and I'll credit others who posted doubt after a delay. Anthony and Byte come to mind. Not sure either had posted jubilation, but those who did, I don't think there's anything wrong with that: People had been kicked down for so long they felt at last perhaps America had a victory. People are really craving that. It's been a decade of steady defeat on all fronts.

Re: War with Pakistan:

We've been openly at war in Pakistan since 2009. That's again, not a conspiracy (seriously, I'm getting tired of this) It was not only news, it was official govt. policy. It was called the Fusion program. Fusion centers were defined by Sec. Gates as "Military bases inside Pakistan where US and Pakistani forces would cooperate... the nature of this cooperation is that the US officers would make the military decisions, and the Pakistani soldiers would carry out those missions based on US leadership." (This is about the fourth or fifth time I've posted this) The Pakistani defense minister objected to the plan with a fairly famous line regarding having the americans do the thinking for them: "We have our own brains." In spite of that, the plan went into effect with the support of Zardari who had taken power in late 2008.

We may have begun covert operations as early as 2007, as suggested here

http://www.thenation.com/article/secret-us-war-pakistan

When you command troops into battle against an enemy, that's called war. Our enemy is so loosely defined, it's possible that you could call it genocide.

When you send robotic drones to attack an enemy, that's war. When you send them to attack a civilian population, as we did in Quetta for example, that's called genocide. Drones killed 800 civilians and no confirmed targets in one attack, and that's according to us. The point of doing that is to set an example. Quetta was not on board with our plan to militarize the Iranian border, because they don't want a war with Iran (they have enough troubles on that front already thank you very much.) The point of the attack was to teach them a lesson, to make them fall in line.

If this isn't obvious in its nature and motive, and doesn't speak directly to the character of its actors and their moral values, then I honestly don't know what will. As a pro-Israeli democrat of jewish/holocaust descent, I'm not naturally inclined to support jihadists, socialists and anti-israelis, but I can clearly see that what we are doing is inhuman. You weren't here when the Republicans were in power, but I was just as rough on them. This is our govt., engaged in all out war against almost the entire muslim world.

Quote:
I actually almost started reading his post; luckily I got as far as his supposed "things admitted by the White House" and came to my senses. Whew!

Try reading what was admitted the govt, and what was reported as news, and fact check it. I am not going to argue anymore what has already been official policy officially stated and repeatedly in the news.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 4:52 PM

Eh, I had doubts, I was mostly trying to be diplomatic with my initial "this is a win for us" response. You'll notice that I wasn't enthusiastic at all.

I wasn't out to killjoy people having some genuine happiness.

EDIT: Well, you know what I mean. I did kinda bring up some downer points about the reaction to the jubilation and about Al Qaeda threats, but there's only so much "trying to be cheerful for other people's sake" that someone like me can manage.

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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 5:10 PM

lol, i was :) Actually, I was stunned at the koolaid drinking, but I get now how much people needed a victory. Still, they still need one, because that wasn't it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, May 5, 2011 6:20 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Our enemy is so loosely defined, it's possible that you could call it genocide."

Hello,

Most genocides are relatively well defined.

In the past few years, the term has been so liberally applied by certain groups that it is losing its value as informative language.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, May 5, 2011 7:06 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Again; I’m responding to several people, so just hit “reply” to the last post, that being Anthony’s.

Anthony,

Quote:
In the past few years, the term has been so liberally applied by certain groups that it is losing its value as informative language.

I agree. The term seems to have become such a part of the vernacular that it is applied to many things which do not fit. Again, a visceral term intended to provoke reaction, or else a mistakenly-held belief which seems to describe something but which doesn’t in reality.

DT:

Quote:
I think the poll would show the current emotional flare.

That’s what I was referring to, that polls are a reflection of the current feelings/thinking of the people, not that they are the be-all, end-all, and as such polls from the past shouldn't be use to substantiate a debate about a current situation.

As to

Quote:
You could go back through the earlier posts and see how many people said at some point "OBL is (already/probably) dead."

Maybe I missed something, but I never saw that, and I find it hard to believe it could be "close to all of us". As was clarified for me (I think it was Sig?), the news that he was dead apparently came from a nation that had a reason for people to believe him to be dead. I’ve yet to see any verifiable proof that he died before last weekend; but then, I’m not seeking same, he’s long since ceased to be that important in and of himself for me.

I certainly agree that we’ve long needed something to feel “victorious” about and that this may well explain why people who may otherwise have believed he was dead some time ago are now expressing relief at the news that he’d been killed. It might also reflect that they didn’t fully believe or questioned the previous information that he was dead long ago. I couldn’t say. I never believed he was dead because I think a big furor would have erupted if people believed it; several years ago he WAS Al Qaeda to people, so his death would have been headlines all over.

There’s a huge difference between war IN Pakistan and war WITH Pakistan. Yes, certainly I don’t deny we’ve been waging a “war” to seek out and destroy Al Qaeda within Pakistan’s borders, but I understood the remarks to indicate we were at war WITH Pakistan itself.

Quote:
Drones killed 800 civilians and no confirmed targets in one attack, and that's according to us.

I’d like to read that for myself; do you have any cites on it?

Quote:
The point of doing that is to set an example. Quetta was not on board with our plan to militarize the Iranian border.... The point of the attack was to teach them a lesson, to make them fall in line.

That I definitely disagree with, and would HAVE to see some proof to believe otherwise. To me, it’s a conclusion you have come to, not a substantiated fact.

As to what PN posted,

Quote:
Navy SEALS made no raid on the "compound"

Paki raided the house for routine arrests

There was no "firefight"

Navy SEALS picked up the arrested man who "looked a little like Bin Laden because he had a beard"

Navy SEALS then tortured and executed that unarmed POW and dumped his body in the ocean, no lawyer and no trial allowed

CIA director General BetrayUS was staying 100 yards from that house 1 year ago, at the Paki military compound next door in that city

I would definitely have to see facts to back up those claims. I haven’t heard a single word on the news, nor have I read anywhere, any of those things. I’ve read QUESTIONS about whether he was taken alive or shot dead, but nothing about “torture”, nor any of the other claims. Given they had that blackout time, we can’t know what happened during that time, I grant you, but all of that being “official policy officially stated and repeatedly in the news“, I don’t accept without some verifiable cites and sources.

I did find some interesting aspects to the Pakistanis involvement or lack thereof:

Quote:
(Lieutenant General Asad Durrani, former head of the ISI, Pakistan's intelligence service) claimed his country was forced to deny any knowledge of the raid to avoid a domestic backlash.
....
He said that the denial was a "political" maneuver by the intelligence services to avoid claims that they were working too closely with the US.

He said: "It is more likely that they did know [about the raid]. It is not conceivable that it was done without the involvement of Pakistani security forces at some stage. They were involved and they were told they were in position.

"The army chief was in his office, the cordons had been thrown around that particular place. The Pakistani helicopters were also in the air so that indicates that it was involved.

"[There are] political implications back home. If you say that you are involved there is a large, vocal faction of Pakistani society that will get very upset because we are carrying out repeatedly these operations with the Americans."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-L
aden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html

That makes sense to me, for the reasons given. It makes more sense than our going in without informing ANYONE in the Pakistan government, and leaving them in the position of being embarrassed and defensive.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, May 5, 2011 11:57 AM

KRELLEK

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well I can tell you one thing I have 100% confidence in, regarding this whole situation.

The lingering aroma of rodent is unmistakeable.

One can argue the nomenclature, species, location and identity of said rodent, but that it is there, is something I have absolute certainty of.

In lieu of direct evidence, all you have to go on is trust and credibility, but I am of the firm opinion your own olfactory examination concurs with mine.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Hello,

Well, yes, something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

In that, we agree.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

Hey Anthonyt, what do you have agains Denmark? that is my country after all :-)just curios :-)

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Thursday, May 5, 2011 1:10 PM

It's a quote from Shakespeare. The theatre piece Hamlet. Suggests treachery and such from the people in charge. Nothing in particular to do with Denmark excepting the play takes place in Denmark and concerns the nobility of long ago.

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Thursday, May 5, 2011 1:22 PM

KRELLEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's a quote from Shakespeare. The theatre piece Hamlet. Suggests treachery and such from the people in charge. Nothing in particular to do with Denmark excepting the play takes place in Denmark and concerns the nobility of long ago.

Aahh sorry then, no harm done :-)

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Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:11 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

My belief is that it was politically inexpedient to speak about the current monarchs of your own country, so Shakespeare would either talk about dead kings or foreign kings in his stories. The Hamlet play involves royals engaged in murder, betrayal, schemes, and revenge. Did the play speak to something going on in Shakespeare's own country at the time? Or is it just a good story? I wonder.

The most delicious thing I find in Hamlet is that in the play, the character of Hamlet stages a play, which becomes a play within a play. All this to make subtle swipes at the King to see how he reacts, hopefully to reveal his own guilt in dastardly deeds. "The play's the thing, "he says, "Wherein I'll catch the conscience of the King."

Even if you don't like Shakespeare, I think you have to admire all those fun little rhyming couplets he uses.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:28 PM

Niki,

The OBL is dead threads predated you, so ill let that one slide, the quetta threads you were here for. It was a thread before teh attack even occurred, when it was just being talked about, and then again when it happened. Im sure everyone posted links. This constant denial of everything gets tiresome, I come here to read and discuss news, not teach history. Look it up or dont, i dont particularly care.

Anthony,

I beg to differ, not about shakespeare, about genocide. I think most genocide is defined in just this manner. We are out to kill muslims, particular the very religious and tribal kind. We seek to turn the rest into some secular population of placid working consumers. But most often genocide does not start out as "we're out to kill [ethnic]" Stalin began with the idea that the Ukraine was outdated, and he would bring it civilization. He meant to kill them all from the word go, but he did so by helping them with charity and assistance. This is how the slaughter usually begins.

Ive posted here before that i believe my ancestors were killed not because they were jewish, but because they were slavs, a race believed by all the great eugenics minds of europe and america to by inferior. Several other genocides were more or less concurrent with that of jews, against ukrainians, poles, serbs and gypsies, who are themselves east indian, aka aryan, and not slavic.

If anyone is ever in any doubt of the application of the word genocide, i refer them to the UN convention on genocide, one of the few actual victories gained from world war ii. Ive ppsted it here many times, but i'm on the ipad right now on the road, and its a pain.

Read it over and see if none of it applies to our overall policy towards muslims, and if perhaps we are not in some way trying to cull the population, subdue it, and curb their birth rate. Theres no question i think that we have an ethnic bias in our characterization and in our selection of targets.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, May 5, 2011 4:24 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Dream,

I think we disagree on motive, which is an essential component of genocide.

It is not enough to kill a bunch of people in a country, but to do it with the correct intent.

Specifically: "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"

I don't think that is the intent. Lots of tribal muslims may be getting killed, but it's not because we want to wipe out tribal muslims as a people.

Since motive is subjective, I don't think we'll agree on this. I look at the world at an angle at least 30 degrees off from the way you look at it.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, May 5, 2011 7:04 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

TV Black Screen of Death in the Situation Closet

CIA admits: no live footage of raid
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-L
aden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html

Quote:
Obama: I won't release bin Laden death photos

"The risks of release outweigh the benefits," he said. "Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East."

LATEST LEAKED PHOTO OF DEAD OSAMA!!!!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20059739-503544.html

Quote:
White House PSYOP Script Falls Apart, Bin Laden Story Keeps Changing-Obama’s Nose Keeps Growing

By FBI Arabic translator Sibel Edmonds, her testimony censored from the 9/11 Commission Report for proving CIA employed Al Qaeda on 9/11/2001.

Here are the latest changes to the Obama administration’s lies-filled script. Let’s keep track of them, and keep them on the front burner, because as you know, as more come out, as we get more confirmed contradictions, the fantastical story tends to get pushed onto the backburner by the media, from front page stories-headlines to Page A2, and from there to B18, and pretty quickly into the usual black hole:

We have gone from the heavy and intensely fought operation against fighting armed men in the Bin Laden compound to no real fight and only one little armed man:

Four of the five people shot to death in the operation that killed Osama bin Laden, including the al-Qaida leader himself, were unarmed and never fired a shot…

We went from armed Bin Laden using his wife as a shield to armed Bin Laden using an anonymous woman as a shield, to unarmed Bin Laden using some kind of a woman as a shield, and now, unarmed Bin Laden in pajamas using no one as a shield!

But last night, the White House said Bin Laden was not armed when a U.S. Navy SEAL confronted and killed him during Sunday night’s assault on his compound.
…
Security officials said they did not recover any arms and explosives during their detailed search of the compound and the 13-roomed house, during which they removed two buffalos, a cow and around 150 chickens.
…
We were told that Bin Laden’s compound was a lavish mansion worth over one million dollars, and now we hear it was a humble mud –covered house with not even an air-conditioning system worth less than $250,000:

Bin Laden’s house, described by the US government as a $1m (£605,000) mansion, is in fact worth no more than $250,000 say property professionals in Abbottabad, the town where he was killed.
…
Descriptions of Bin Laden’s hideout have also been prone to exaggeration. After Sunday night’s dramatic raid by US Navy Seals, a senior Obama administration official told reporters that the property, an “extraordinarily unique compound” in an “affluent suburb”, was valued at around $1m.But two property professionals in Abbottabad – a quiet, military-dominated town – said that much of that was incorrect. Based on the size of the plot and the house, which was built in 2005, and using recent property sales as a guide, they estimated that it would fetch no more than $250,000 on the current market.

“Twenty million rupees, maximum,” said property dealer Muhammad Anwar, a 22-year veteran of the local market, at his Abbottabad office. “No swimming pool. This is not a posh area. We call it a middling area.”
…
We were given torture, traditional long-term interrogation techniques and surveillance as the major factors leading to the scripted victory, and now we get official statements from Pakistan indicating that they, the Pakistani intelligence, had provided Bin Laden’s location to Mr. Obama over 2 years ago, and again six months ago!
Pakistan hit back Wednesday about US fears that it could not be trusted with details of the raid on osama bin Laden’s compound and claimed it had identified the potential hideout as far back as 2009.
…
Bashir went on to claim that the ISI passed on its suspicions about the compound in Abbottabad two years ago.

“The fact is, on this particular occasion, it was pointed out by our intelligence quite some time ago to the US intelligence,” he said. “We had indicated as far back as 2009 [it was] a possible place.” The ISI said it again warned just six months ago that “suspicious foreigners” and even “al Qaeda operatives” were potentially inside the compound but denied knowing bin Laden was among them, according to Sky News. There was no immediate response to that claim from the Obama administration.
…
And last but not least, they told us our President and Presidents’ Men were watching the entire operation, second by second, via satellite and real time. Now, our President and Presidents’ Men are backpedaling in face of exposed lies and contradictions, and use ‘Fog of War’ for lack of truth and accuracy. Did the fog fog up the White House real-time TV show and mislead our popcorn-eating President and his Men?!

The White House Tuesday blamed “the fog of war” for conflicting statements in its recounting of the events surrounding the Abbottabad raid that killed Osama bin Laden…

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2011/05/05/white-house-psyop-script-fa
lls-apart/

Quote:

US or Paki chopper?

IT WAS PAK FORCES WHO ATTACKED THE COMPOUND IN ABBOTTABAD

It was Pakistan forces who attacked the compound in Abbotabad.

It was Pakistan forces who took away the captives.

On 4 May 2011, The UK Daily Telegraph's Peter Oborne has an excellent report on what happened at Abbottabad. (The mysterious Khan family.)

Peter Oborne reports:

Mohammed Qasim is a farmer’s boy who lives right next to the compound in Abbottabad.

A special forces helicopter landed in the field just behind his house.

Masked men emerged.

Mohammed Qasim said they spoke fluent Pashtu, a language of Pakistan.

He heard them 'smash their way into' the compound.

Twenty minutes later, he heard the helicopters depart with their captives.

Mohammed Qasim's father was seized by soldiers during the raid.

According to Mohammed Qasim, two families had been living in the compound.

They were headed by Arshad Khan, 'in his forties', and his young brother Tariq.

They spoke perfect Pashtu (a language of Pakistan)

Mohammed Qasim said the Khans had eight or nine children, including Abdur Rahman and Khalid, both six or seven years old; two or three women lived in the house.

Mohammed Qasim insisted that he never saw Osama bin Laden.

He said: "I don't believe he was there."

Peter Osborne could see "practically no signs of a fight" when he arrived at the Khan’s family house.

"No bullet marks punctured the walls."

Did the Pakistan military get too close to a CIA safe house?

Did the Pakistan security services get involved in a fight at the CIA safe house and then discover CIA operatives (or members of bin Laden's family) being housed there?

Did the US military then arrive on the scene to remove the evidence and concoct a story to cover its involvement with al Qaeda?

Former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf's 2004 autobiography talks about an Al Qaeda (CIA) safe house in Abbottabad. (Musharraf knew of Abbottabad safe house?)

An ISI official told the BBC the compound in Abbottabad where Bin Laden was allegedly killed had been raided in 2003. (Bunny Laden.)

Pakistan’s spy service (ISI) had been sharing information about the Abbottabad compound with the CIA since 2009 and had continued to do so until mid-April. ( Pakistan 'shared information about compound ...‎)

Pakistani intelligence officials said that a Pakistani army helicopter was shot down in Abbottabad and then a search operation was launched by Pakistani forces.

At about 1:20 a.m. local time a Pakistani helicopter was shot down by unknown people in the Sikandarabad area of Abbottabad.

The Pakistani forces launched a search operation in the nearby area and encountered a group of unknown armed people.

An exchange of fire followed between the two sides.

When the exchange of fire ended, the Pakistani forces arrested some Arab women and children as well some other armed people.

Two U.S. helicopters flew to the site and carried away a dead body

Initial reports said that at least one was killed and two others were injured in the crash.

At least two houses were engulfed by the huge fire caused by the crashed chopper.

"U.S. officials have said that Pakistani officials were not told about the early morning helicopter raid until the strike team had killed Bin Laden and had returned to Afghanistan from where they took off, citing security reasons.

"Many Pakistanis were surprised at how this was possible, especially when initial reports stated that the choppers took off from a Pakistani air base." (Bunny Laden.)

"I used to go to their house. He had two wives, one spoke Arabic, and the other one spoke Urdu. They had three children, a girl and two boys. They gave me two rabbits."

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2011/05/it-was-pak-forces-who-attacked-c
ompound.html

Neighbor of house (where Osama was supposedly killed) can't believe Osama ever lived there or was even killed there, helicopter was Paki not USA:

Quote:
Osama DNA Sequence In 24 Hours?

DNA sequencing is a very time consuming, compute intensive process. It requires taking millions of slices through a sample of molecules, and doing a large amount of image processing and other computation on electron microscope photographs of each slice. This is something I have been involved with professionally, and am unaware of any system which could have done a positive DNA ID within 24 hours.

https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2011/05/05/dna-sequence-in-24-hour
s/

No Proof Has Been Offered Suggesting That The Official Osama Bin Laden Death Narrative Is Even Remotely True
http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/04/no-proof-has-been-offered-suggesting
-that-the-official-osama-bin-laden-death-narrative-is-even-remotely-true/

Osama's Death Turned America into the Laughing Stock of the World
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/05/osamas-death-turned-ameri
ca-into.html

USA refused Bin Laden's capture by Taliban February 27th 2001:

Quote:
"Really, you should only look at Bin Laden photos and news that WE give you through ABCNNBBCBSFOX. You dare not look at any other websites for news about how we killed Bin Laden, especially that asshole Rivero over at www.whatreallyhappened.com, because your computer will be infected, your credit card numbers stolen, your floors will get waxy yellow buildup, your DVDs will self-destruct, your 401K vanish, your daughters stampeded, and your cattle raped!"
-FBI

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Monday, May 9, 2011 4:16 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

My first thought is that the title talks about “discussing rationally”; what’s PN doing here? “BoilingFrogpost”?? “Aangirfan.blogspot”?? “Lonestarwatchdog”?? So you get your "news" from bloggers...I see. I don’t think he read the title...

DT,

Quote:
I come here to read and discuss news, not teach history

Ah. I see. So you don’t come here to “learn” as you have claimed repeatedly. And the way you write you are DEFINITELY intent on “teaching”, sometimes history, sometimes other things. Apparently you just didn’t come here to EXPLAIN how you came to your conclusions/opinions, just to state them and expect them to be accepted as the only reality.

Basically,I’m with Anthony. And PN is sick. Sick, sick, SICK!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, May 9, 2011 6:05 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Most genocides are relatively well defined.

Most genocides fall into the category of "If you're not with me killing X population, you're against me." Meaning, they pay lip service to being "well-defined," but in practice, the people killed by genocide fall very loosely into said definition.

So I would have to disagree with you about genocide being well-defined.

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Monday, May 9, 2011 6:11 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I don't think that is the intent. Lots of tribal muslims may be getting killed, but it's not because we want to wipe out tribal muslims as a people.

Intent is awfully easy to lie about.

Let's say you DO want to wipe out tribal muslims as a people. Are you going to come out and announce it? Or are you more likely to come out with some excuse to kill tons of tribal muslims?

Genocide is as genocide does.

Yes, some people are silly enough to be honest about their intentions, like Hitler. Look what happened to an honest villain.

There are two types of serial killers. Those who are caught. And those who aren't. What's the difference? The ones who aren't know how to disguise their evil.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:58 AM

Looking closer at Frem's article, it's an exclusive to World Tribune dot com. I can't find that anyone else carried it. I also can't find much documentation about World Tribune dot com, my impression is that they're kind of like prisonplanet.

A number of papers carried the Pakistani notice of death linked to on Fox news, including the Egyptian paper DT said there were screenshots out there.

Yet there's some valid points about the DNA sequencing, plus, how did we even have Osama's DNA on record before sequencing to compare, and how will any of us confirm the sequencing is Osama anyway?

The evidence for both claims, died 2002 or died 2011 is still sparse. Ultimately, I'm starting to believe it's unimportant. No change in stated/observable mission or war direction in the Middle East, heard nothing of a rash of arrests from the intel we got, and you think if we got the network by the balls like we say we'd act fast. Ho hum.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:40 AM

Anthony,

The intent is clear: we want to dominate the middle east and lower the reproduction rate of muslims to make sure they don't overwhelm europeans, or more specifically, probably, israelis. We intend to do this by controlling their economy and their political and religious leadership. This has been stated many many times, by a large number of globalist neocons and neolibs, it's not really in dispute.

So yes, you would be correct if you were to say that we do not intend a "total eradication" .... yet, of the kind that was carried out in rwanda or cambodia or poland.

Still if you read all the points of the UN convention article II, this very clearly fits the definition.

In the real world, genocides almost never succeed is destroying a race or culture, but they do kill millions of people. Our target, is, of course, not "islam" but "radical islam" which we want to replace with "moderate islam" which we intend to invent. It's just like regular islam except it's willing to take out a subprime mortgage.

Niki,

You are truly very tiresome. Why on Earth would I care about changing the minds of people here, even if I thought it was possible? I'm here to discuss issues with people I consider to be informed, more informed than me mostly, and sometimes to pose questions to the board at large. Often outliers and lurkers have interesting input, as i pointed out earlier: most of the most interesting threads have been posted by lurkers.

The partisan arguments and focus on minutae like MSM focal talking points, etc. are about the purest waste of time there is. Thank you for giving me a reason to disregard purple text. Please feel free to disregard any green text you see.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2011 11:20 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Geez, DT, you and your crazy eugenics theory.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:15 PM

I honestly don't understand how the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars AREN'T a genocide.

Specific religious or ethnic group targeted, check.

Significant numbers dead, check.

Mention of religious crusades from invading leadership, check.

Quote:
Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

And those are only the points I can reliably confirm.

It's not Rwanda levels yet, but it can still be considered a genocide if the weaker side fights back (or if some of the genocided party's practices are morally questionable). It's like saying the Native Americans weren't genocided because they shot pioneers with bows and arrows. Or that enslaving western coast Africans wasn't a genocide because the separate tribes turned each other in.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2011 4:12 PM

HKCAVALIER

If I may: I think the trouble with calling it a genocide for some folks is that there is no policy to wipe out, or remove Muslims from the earth or from even the middle east. I'm impressed with DT's argument which he posted months ago on the subject. It's a deeply troubling statistical analysis, the sort of thing at which DT excels.

I doubt that Anthony would have any trouble with a phrase like "de facto genocide." Intent is important to people. Some folks get a lot of juice from thinking TPTB really intend genocide. "Oh yeah! They're pure, soulless evil!" Some folks, not so much. Are some within the ranks of our armed forces genocidal? Oh, to be sure. But is it a "final solution?"

Can we get back to why indications that OBL died 5 years ago are more compelling than the indications that he died last week? The more that comes out around his death--the wife, the videos, etc.--just means more and more people have to have been completely bought off.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2011 4:23 PM

Acceptable!

Now to go find that mirror-portal thing.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2011 4:44 PM

Quote:
Can we get back to why indications that OBL died 5 years ago are more compelling than the indications that he died last week? The more that comes out around his death--the wife, the videos, etc.--just means more and more people have to have been completely bought off.

Exactly. Who benefits from such a conspiracy? Obama? What possible motive could the GOP have for keeping a lid on a dead OBL for the past 5 years, only to keep mum now and help Obama's reelection chances?

To believe in this conspiracy means you have to, by default, believe in even LARGER conspiracies - the Dems and Rethugs are working together with the Rothschilds, etc., to create a New World Order, and so on, ad infinitum.

And if all of that were true, if they already bought off so many people - so many HIGHLY POWERFUL WORLD LEADERS - then do you really think you're the one who's going to blow the lid off this thing, from your little keyboard in your little life in your little town?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:00 PM

Of course not, by simple virtue of the fact that:

1) The NWO theory clearly has it's place in the public awareness, and there is no amount of shouting from rooftops that can expose it. It's already pretty much there for the seeing. Unless we all think those corporate lobbyists just want to be friends, foreign powers aren't letting America be their meatshields while they buff up their own economies, and the industrial military complex really just wants to distribute lollipops.

2) What do the power factions care if people can see the corruption? They have money, power, and most of us are their monkey slaves. They only care if they think you threaten their power base, in which case your servers are confiscated or you are arrested on trumped up charges and kept in legal limbo for years until you break down. Hi Julian Assange!

Or they kill you, but those are pretty rare because killings automatically raise awareness and suspicions.

Large conspiracies don't have to be organized. They can even be composed of numerous smaller elements competing for power, or in whispers of ideas or tactics learned in backroom deals. Here and there, some agenda will move forward and the world will shift down the path of destruction a little more.

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Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:50 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Bombshell: U.S. government questioned Obama citizenship, lacked documents to determine birth country since age 5
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=295749

Quote:
"There is nothing in the file to document the status of the spouse's son. Please inquire into his citizenship and residence status and determine whether or not he is the applicant's child within the meaning of Section 101(b)(1)(B) of the Act, who may suffer exceptional hardship within the meaning of Section 212(a)."
-Sam Benson, an officer at the Southwest Immigration and Naturalization Service office in San Pedro, Calif, August 21, 1967

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Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:48 AM