I can't make this stuff up.... by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

I can't make this stuff up....

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 16:03
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VIEWED: 917
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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 8:02 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Tho I wish I could. And that it would be untrue.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/china-wants-to-construct-a-5
0-square-mile-self-sustaining-city-south-of-boise-idaho

http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/08/no-really-swat-team-raids-hous

http://blogs.reuters.com/james-pethokoukis/2011/06/06/china-to-us-forg
et-debt-ceiling-cut-spending/

http://blogs.forbes.com/larrybell/2011/06/07/u-n-agreement-should-have
-all-gun-owners-up-in-arms/

Hopey-Changey.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 8:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Nope, you really CAN'T make this stuff up:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/02/rand-paul-calls-prison-radica
l-speech_n_870354.html

Here's your right-wing "hero", one of the "adults" you were so glad was "in charge", telling us why Americans don't need constitutional protections.

"Libertarian", my ass.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 8:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Per usual, you take Rand's comments out of context.

" violent " overthrow of the govt.... not mere political speech.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 8:51 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Hopey-Changey.

1) that's awesome. We're being colonized. Glad its not a sensitive environmental area, but we will need a good water supply for it before the Chinese do something catastrophic to solve the problem (see three gorges)

2) this one has been getting worse. Student loans? Another recent not to go to college.

3) we own them that. Even Ron Paul said so. You borrow legitimate money from a legit. Source, you pay it back. It's this bogus fiat created for bogus expentitures that should be defaulted on.

4) yes, worrisome, but also proof that guns are obsolete. The UN is so slow and inefficient that it never gets around to banning something that is actually relevant.

Mike/Rap:

Rand is a disaster. The people should advocate the overthrow of the govt., they should attend radical religious rallies. This is America, and that's what the founding fathers would want them to do, because, hey, that's what they did.

But that said, who would determine the threat?

I've found Rand so far to be not a chip off the old block, but rather 100% for sale. He's a libertarian the way John Kerry and George Bush were a liberal and a conservative: they know what to say at a rally to rally their base, but they don't believe a word of it, and probably chuckle to themselves "suckers" while they crack open a case of beer together.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 10:02 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

In Siberia, the currency is vodka and bullets.

We've got people here cheering that.

At least the corporations won't control... wait, who makes the vodka and bullets?

Whiskey and .45"s anyone?

Im stocked up, so I'm good. How about you?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 12:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

DT -

Here's the thing.

" Occasionally the tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson.

Ok, I get that. violent revolution. But the world of the late 1700's isn't the same as the one we live in today. People might be, more or less, but society isn't. Not saying there'll never be a NEED for violent revolution, just that we need to think about this before hand.

Now, the Left loves to point to the McCarthy era as a dark time in US history. Lives and careers were ruined !

Yeah. and ? Look at what the threat was - communism. But we should be free to do as we wish and choose what sort of govt we want, right ? It's in the constitution. Yes, it is. But no where in the constitution does it say we should so freely give away our rights and liberties to the very form of govt which guarantees exactly that. The socialist / communist movement of the 50's and 60's was funded and supported by the very folks who wanted to take down this country and rob it of what has made it so great.

Kruchev even said that capitalism will sell the communists the rope by which they hang us by. For that was and remains their intent. To destroy capitalism.

So, are we suppose to merrily go along w/ their wishes, allow those who'd take away our freedoms, to hide behind those very same freedoms, while they plot our destruction ?

No, I think not. The Founders would cringe at such an idea.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 12:43 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Per usual, you take Rand's comments out of context.

" violent " overthrow of the govt.... not mere political speech.

What did I take out of context? I posted a video link. Since this is a Wulfie thread, I thought I'd engage him on his level by posting a link.

Here's the comments, IN context:

Quote:
I'm not for profiling people on the color of their skin or on their religion. But I would take into account where they've been traveling and perhaps you might indirectly have to take into account whether or not they've been going to radical political speeches by religious leaders. It wouldn't be that they are Islamic. But if someone is attending speeches from someone who is promoting the violent overthrow of our government, that's really an offense that we should be going after. They should be deported or put in prison.

One very important point to note in what he said: He's not saying that just the people MAKING such speeches should be imprisoned or deported from this country; he's saying that anyone ATTENDING such a speech should be deported or imprisoned.

That's not MY context, that's his.

One other problem he has: the Supreme Court. In Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), they upheld the right of people to make speeches calling for the violent overthrow of the government.

In other words, they took Thomas Jefferson's words more to heart than you or Rand Paul do.

Here's just a few people who would be arrested, imprisoned, and/or deported if Rand Paul got his wishes:

- Everyone who attended Sharron Angle's rallies where she called for "Second Amendment remedies" (that's violent overthrow of the government, kids).

- Everyone attending Ted Nugent's concerts where he screamed that the President should "suck on my machine gun".

- Everyone attending the town hall meeting where a GOP congressman was told by a supporter that he was a "proud right-wing terrorist", to which he replied, "God bless you."

Not sure why you're so gung-ho in favor of imprisoning so many of your tea-bagging brethren, but I can't say I'm surprised. You right-wing authoritarian fascists sure do like imprisoning people.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 12:59 PM

BYTEMITE

Meh, what troubles me is not so much that China is communist, but imperialist and authoritarian with a poor human rights record.

Another red scare and bit of McCarthyism could play right into their hands. "More National Guard Recruitment!" or worse, "Militarize the Police to protect us against the communists!" when supposedly there's already more police per person than Nazi Germany and our leadership is already bought and paid for by foreign influences could be disastrous.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 1:00 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

So, are we suppose to merrily go along w/ their wishes, allow those who'd take away our freedoms, to hide behind those very same freedoms, while they plot our destruction ?

You aggressively cheerleaded for it when it was a guy named Dubya.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 3:06 PM

DREAMTROVE

Rap,

1. Free speech. That includes people saying "death to america"

2. People advocating violent revolution are actually just sensationalists. We can debate whether Ice Tea is responsible for the actions of one of his audience members, but i'm personally not a fan of hate speech laws.

3. Where's the line, When did it move and Who gets to decide where the line is and when it moves again?

Quote:
Not saying there'll never be a NEED for violent revolution, just that we need to think about this before hand.

Before we think about it, we need to have the freedom to do so.

What we're really talking about here is not what you and I say and do, but whether Wulfenstar has the right to rant to the sky before going off half cocked, and part of what I'm saying is that Wulf saying what he does is not na indicator of his future actions anymore than Pirate News is really going to nuke Israel.

I'm actually going to agree with you about McCarthy. American stealth communists were a major threat to this nation, and McCarthy did say at some point "I dread the day when Americans wake up in a nation ruled by Max Shachtman and his ilk." Shachtman was leader of the Trotsky branch of the American Communist Party at the time, but late, a fairly decent size chunk of his disciples went on to be in govt. And are what we now call neolibs and neocons, and penned a great number of the policies that both sides complain about on this forum.

The goal of communism is control. Complete and unquestioned control over everything. It's ruled by an abyss of paranoia. It will side with capitalism when it suits its purposes, just look at China. What Communism really seeks to destroy is freedom, because when the people are free, there's a chance that someday they might rise up and overthrow the elite, and that is the source of their fear.

Quote:

So, are we suppose to merrily go along w/ their wishes, allow those who'd take away our freedoms, to hide behind those very same freedoms, while they plot our destruction ?

No, I think not. The Founders would cringe at such an idea.

i think this missed the concept of freedom.

Basically, a well defined free society like one described by the US constitution would be able to have radical religious extremists, even religious separatists, within its borders, as it always, and still does today. Just the other day I was over at an Amish farm buying plants, and not long before, on the indian reservation. Both would like very much the United States to get out of their business, but both were busy in the enterprise of capitalism. If we actually had radical jihadists here, I suspect they would behave in the same fashion. If they didn't, they would have committed a crime at some point, but that crime would not be denouncing our decadent empire.

Say we had an american mujahideen. They armed themselves to the teeth, which is their right. They pledged the overthrow of this govt, which is their right, and if you take a few minutes to reread the declaration of independence, Jefferson seems to demand it as the only patriotic thing to do. Then they use the rhetoric which they know will work. What happens then? You really think they can best out military technology and three million security personnel on our home turf? Neither do they. They'll just run someone for office. They'd collect in some odd corner of the country like Wyoming, and elect a governor, and then push for limited interference from the feds and states rights. Why? Because that's a hell of a lot easier than an actual revolution, and probably a hell of a lot more effective.

But before we even consider these sorts of situaitons, we should track back to basic notion of freedom.

So, yes, McCarthy had a point, communists were hijacking the media to create a sympathetic eye and getting people to look away from what ey were doing, and in so doing, they were being monopolistic, and shutting out dissenting voices. When Wulfie starts doing that, I'll let you know, but don't do it yourself in the name of preventing someone else from doing it.

But there are other real world examples. Remember the black panthers? They called for the violent overthrow of the US govt. Which is actually further than Max Shachtman ever went. But they didn't actually do it, and now they're a political party, ironically called "the Freedom Party." Last election I seriously considered voting for them. I actually completely agreed with the Black Panther candidate, pretty much across the board, but at the last minute switched to the Socialist Green Party candidate with whom I disagreed on virtually everything. Why? Because I generally cast a protest vote. I know my vote doesn't really count. If it's ever close enough for my vote to count, special interests will weigh in and push it one way or the other. But I actually do want my protest vote counted. My vote for the Black Panthers would send the message not that I agreed with their conservative conservationist libertarian policies, because no one would bother to look up the issues. Rather, it would say that the democrats were losing a splitter. Voting Green would say the same thing, but would show that I was distressed by their position on the environment, rather than on Civil Rights, which is the message I really wanted to send.

And this post has gotten too long, but I'll give you another example, not american: the PLO, which has now turned into the most rational faction of palestinian politics. This is just maturity. The longer they do it, the more reasonable they become. Hamas is young and cocky, like Wulf. They want to show they're tough, and they want to rally their troops. The former PLO actually wants solutions that will work.

So, if someone starts shooting, or silencing dissent, we have a problem. As long as they're just talking, let them talk. Maybe try talking to them. In time they'll see reason. But until that time, they need the freedom to develop their opposition to whatever it is that they think has gone wrong with this country, and a great deal has gone wrong.

I really strongly advise rereading the declaration of independence. I did so a couple weeks ago and i was surprised by how well Jefferson's discription of Tyranny matched the current govt.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 3:08 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Meh, what troubles me is not so much that China is communist, but imperialist and authoritarian with a poor human rights record.

Another red scare and bit of McCarthyism could play right into their hands. "More National Guard Recruitment!" or worse, "Militarize the Police to protect us against the communists!" when supposedly there's already more police per person than Nazi Germany and our leadership is already bought and paid for by foreign influences could be disastrous.

good points all. What i find entertaining about imperialism is having read so much about it from the other side, i can see a lot of opportunities for the US under chinese domination. But you're right, their human rights record is terrible, as is their environmental record.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, June 8, 2011 4:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

So, are we suppose to merrily go along w/ their wishes, allow those who'd take away our freedoms, to hide behind those very same freedoms, while they plot our destruction ?

You aggressively cheerleaded for it when it was a guy named Dubya.

I'm gonna have to ask you to list the freedoms I lost under Bush43. I can't recall losing any of them.

(edit ) - Now, I'll give you that we ALL lost on the USSC decision of Kelo vs City of New London... that right there is such an abomination, worst ruling probably since R v Wade in its unconstitutionality.

But that wasn't specific to Bush43's policy, as it was an entirely separate branch of govt.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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