So much for the view that Europe is Socialist by Magonsdaughter

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So much for the view that Europe is Socialist

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Thursday, July 28, 2011 19:30
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Thursday, July 28, 2011 2:19 AM

Looks like its more right to me. Natty little interactive map in any event.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2011/jul/28/europe-politic
s-interactive-map-left-right

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 3:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hey, I'll take "right wing" Europe over bone-headed libertarianism any day. Where can I sign up?

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 4:41 AM

BYTEMITE

...o.0

Right-wing Europe = Fascist Nationalism. I'd rethink that, Sig.

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 7:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

"Libertarianism", at least as currently practiced in the U.S., really isn't any different than fascist nationalism, though.

You can argue that the tea parties aren't really libertarian, but they are indeed the ones driving that particular bus at the moment, and they have become the modern face of the movement.

Hey, don't let it get you down - after all, I'm stuck with Obama being the face of the Democratic party. And here I thought I was voting for a Muslim Kenyan socialist!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 7:46 AM

BYTEMITE

Neo-cons are the American Nationalistic Fascists. So most of the people in the tea party are relatively normal, though stirred up by various ideas and rhetoric. But the leadership of the tea party, once it was taken over... *shudder*

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:02 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Libertarianism", at least as currently practiced in the U.S., really isn't any different than fascist nationalism, though.

You can argue that the tea parties aren't really libertarian, but they are indeed the ones driving that particular bus at the moment, and they have become the modern face of the movement.

Hey, don't let it get you down - after all, I'm stuck with Obama being the face of the Democratic party. And here I thought I was voting for a Muslim Kenyan socialist!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

You can define the SO called teaparty as "driving the libertarian bus" however, you'd be SO wrong. Sure most self proclaimed "teaparty' types want small government...they do tend to miss the whole..."do you thingy" that makes libertarians the best....Do what you want...be gay, smoke weed, but leave me alone and do not hijack the government to steal from me..to subsidize your disaster...ya know? I think there is the compromise between conservatives and liberals. I think the neo-con god loving types should stop telling others what is moral and right, but the liberals should stop demanding that those who oppose them should pay for their behavior and choices...I.E..Abortion. Go ahead be a whore..but pay for your own abortion..Naw Mean?

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 12:52 PM

KWICKO

Don't we already have laws that prohibit government money going for abortions?

Hell, for that matter, don't we even have laws that prohibit INSURANCE paying going for abortions?

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 4:25 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
...o.0

Right-wing Europe = Fascist Nationalism. I'd rethink that, Sig.

I think that's perhaps overstating the case. The new radical islamophobic right, perhaps, the mainstream right has a distrubing tendency but there are still a fair number of right wing libertarians in europe.

But consider your audience ;)

But seriously, picking that over libertarianism?! That seems a bit extreme. I think i'd pick libertarianism over anything except perhaps anarchy.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 4:30 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I think Sig is right (no pun intended. The European Political Right would probably be considered centerist by US standards. I'm not referring to right winged extremists or national extremists.

Some of the left still feel okay about using the term 'Socialist' in their part name and it not be considered a pejorative term.

"Oh Ma Gawd, It's Socalism gone wild" :)

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:03 PM

BYTEMITE

Europe right wing: anti-Muslim sentiments anti-immigration sentiments Identification restrictions nationalism.

American Neo-cons... ohhhhhh. Hey, they're the same. Wow.

Maybe there's some libertarians in Europe but you'd hafta show some to me. Most of the right wing in Europe seem to me to be military-imperialist types who actually kinda like government because that means they HAVE a military.

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:28 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Europe right wing: anti-Muslim sentiments anti-immigration sentiments Identification restrictions nationalism.

American Neo-cons... ohhhhhh. Hey, they're the same. Wow.

Maybe there's some libertarians in Europe but you'd hafta show some to me. Most of the right wing in Europe seem to me to be military-imperialist types who actually kinda like government because that means they HAVE a military.

Have you ever heard a tea-bagger here in the U.S. lobby for cutting our military spending? Seriously?

Look at the tea-party hobbits on Capitol Hill right now. Show me the ones arguing that we must cut military spending (and not the ones arguing that we should cut benefits for veterans).

These so-called libertarians here are the same military-imperialist swine they have on the far right in Europe. They just wear trucker hats instead of berets.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:33 PM

BYTEMITE

There's a few out there, but remember, most of the tea party crowd has bought into Neo-Cons telling them stuff. And that's also not to say that the tea-partiers are necessarily libertarians... Though I will still say that I consider the non-leadership of the tea-party generally be pretty normal people. Most of them don't even see themselves as Neo-Cons... Though they could possibly do a bit better questioning the talking points and the agendas behind them.

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:58 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Europe right wing: anti-Muslim sentiments anti-immigration sentiments Identification restrictions nationalism.

American Neo-cons... ohhhhhh. Hey, they're the same. Wow.

Maybe there's some libertarians in Europe but you'd hafta show some to me. Most of the right wing in Europe seem to me to be military-imperialist types who actually kinda like government because that means they HAVE a military.

I'm dubious. The European left was very pro-EU, pro-Iraq War, pro-globalist. The right seems unsure about things like the one-currency system. The reason there's a radical right is in part that the European right is *too* centrist, and no one is talking about abolishing the EU, which is what the majority of Europeans I talk to would already like to see happen. I think that the GOP is also too centrist. I don't hear them actually discussing withdrawing from NAFTA or the WTO. Maybe some in the tea party.

The other thing fueling the far right is the same christian-zionist alliance of islamophobia.

This one bugs me. Consider history. There have been Muslims in Europe for a thousand years. I'm sort of waiting for some Merkel to say "Those thousand years end tonight."

But overall, I think the EU is falling apart, and the whole of Europe being right wingers is pushing that, throwing around terms like the EUSSR.

Immigration is a right left issue in Europe, and the left and the EU have both been solidly pro-immigration.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 6:27 PM

BYTEMITE

Well, maybe. I've only visited Europe. I was mostly going off of how the right wing in Europe used to be the guys seated to the right of the king, and then what happened with Italy and Spain. I'm sure it's changed, but there also still has to be elements of that over there. And my guess is just like neo-liberals and neo-cons here, it's the fascists and socialists over in Europe that mainly drive policy through their "compromises."

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Thursday, July 28, 2011 7:30 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I'm dubious. The European left was very pro-EU, pro-Iraq War, pro-globalist.

I dispute that the European Left was any more pre Iraq than the right. If you check the map again, the Coalition of the Willing was a hotch potch of countries, some of which had governments to the right and some to the left. I'd say that overall the rank and file of the left did not support the war and the governments that they elected moved to the centre when they supported the war and lost a lot of support from traditional supporters ie Blair.

I'd also dispute that the left were pro-globalist, but if you mean supporting multiculturalism vs nationalism, I'd agree witht that.

Quote:
But overall, I think the EU is falling apart, and the whole of Europe being right wingers is pushing that, throwing around terms like the EUSSR.

The Eu has less to keep it together than the US, beings such a diverse range of cultures and economies. Everyone was happy when the EU brought great wealth to countries, now lets see if they can manage the ups and downs that accompany any 'union'

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