BofA chief: We have a 'right to make a profit' by Niki2

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oh, BTW - I wanted to address this:

"All told, federal taxpayers last year received $1.08 trillion in credits, deductions and other perks ..."

And THEN when you get to the graphic, you realize - they are talking about specific tax breaks - "subsidies for individuals and companies that are often substitutes for direct government spending".

THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DEDUCTIONS - THE ROUTINE DEDUCTIONS BUSINESSES TAKE THAT PEOPLE CAN'T.

The tax breaks they include??

Education. Commerce and housing. Energy. Income security. Health. Natural resources and environment.

FURTHERMORE - YOU EQUATE 'TAX BURDEN' WITH 'INCOME TAX'. As you know - or damn well should - they are not the same.

Jeez - don't you actually READ the shit you post?

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, October 16, 2011 12:37 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

And you never did answer this question Geezer -

"So, let's reverse the argument. Without the benefit of the surrounding society, a corporation dies. If society looks at a corporation and says 'work, or die', what work should be demanded of the corporation for it to earn its survival?"

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, October 16, 2011 4:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Most wealthy didn't get it by working hard, they inherited it, because wealth, like power often leads to greater wealth and greater power, and is passed on through generations. So what is you problem with constantly defending those who have the most of everything and targeting those who have the least?

Oh, really? Where'd you get THAT nugget of information ? Because that's not the information I have. Sure, those with 'old money' tend to keep it, but you'd kinda expect that, right ? However, you seem to want to ignore the work and effort many of the 'rich' put forth in order to get to where they are.

America's richest families - according to Forbes. Awful lot of made their dough back in the 19th and 20th centuries.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/12/03/americas-richest-families-walton-rock
efeller-dupont-business-billionaires-families_slide_8.html

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Monday, October 17, 2011 1:56 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Oh, BTW - I wanted to address this:

"All told, federal taxpayers last year received $1.08 trillion in credits, deductions and other perks ..."

And THEN when you get to the graphic, you realize - they are talking about specific tax breaks - "subsidies for individuals and companies that are often substitutes for direct government spending".

THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DEDUCTIONS - THE ROUTINE DEDUCTIONS BUSINESSES TAKE THAT PEOPLE CAN'T.

The tax breaks they include??

Education. Commerce and housing. Energy. Income security. Health. Natural resources and environment.

Yep. Tax breaks that businesses can't take. Pretty much all tax breaks, whether for individuals or corporations, are there because someone thought it'd help some segment of the population and economy. Child Credit, EITC, home mortgage deduction, charitable contribution deduction, medical expense deduction, etc. make up a big windfall for individuals - a lot more than corporations get, per the Post article.

Quote:
FURTHERMORE - YOU EQUATE 'TAX BURDEN' WITH 'INCOME TAX'. As you know - or damn well should - they are not the same.

Actually, that was SignyM.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If you were to look at Federal income tax rates and tax burden as a chart...

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, October 17, 2011 2:36 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"So, let's reverse the argument. Without the benefit of the surrounding society, a corporation dies. If society looks at a corporation and says 'work, or die', what work should be demanded of the corporation for it to earn its survival?"

"Earn its survival". Your painting with a broad brush. Are you talking about all corporations or just certain industries you don't like.

I note for the record that most corporations provide jobs, taxes, and abide by complex regulations (that vary by industry) while providing a return on the investments of those who place their capital at risk. Are you saying you want them to do more then that?

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Monday, October 17, 2011 11:12 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... a lot more than corporations get, per the Post article."

And once again, you prove YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ. OR THINK. (Or perhaps the problem lies with your integrity.) The article DIDN'T INCLUDE NORMAL BUSINESS TAX DEDUCTIONS.

Helllloooo. Anyone home? CAN you read? Or is the problem between your ears? (Or perhaps it's with your ethics.)

Read WHICH deductions were listed in the graphic. HOW that calculation was made. It DIDN'T include ordinary business tax deductions as per the IRS income tax form for corporations. You know - the ones I listed.

If businesses DIDN'T get to make those deductions - how much extra tax could be collected? YOU DON'T KNOW because they aren't included in the calculations in the article.

PLEASE - don't make me repeat this point YET AGAIN. That would make it FOUR times. Really. Do you need something pointed out to you FOUR TIMES???

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 17, 2011 11:25 AM

America loves a winner!

MD, that addresses the RICHEST families, but not the % of wealthy who have made their money themselves, by working for it.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 17, 2011 11:30 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So run off and find that factoid, OK little Rappy? Go on. Fetch. Don't forget to include a link.

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 17, 2011 11:51 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Posted by Rappy:

Charlie Gibson was pointing out that, raising the cap gains tax won't necessarily net the govt more money, so why do it ? Obama's response is - 'I don't care that more $ isn't raised, it's just 'fair' that the rich pay more'. Sorry Barry, but that's not the proper function of govt, or taxes, to arbitrarily decide what's FAIR, but to raise necessary revenue to fund the gov.t

Okay, so you readily concede that it's not the proper function of government to decide what's "FAIR" via taxation. Good.

So why do you keep whinging about it not being "FAIR" to have the rich pay more?

What on Earth made you think "FAIR" came into the equation? And if you don't care that life isn't "FAIR" for the poor or middle class, why would you expect an of the 99% to care whether taxation is "FAIR" for the top 1%?

That's the case you can't make.

If the government's proper function, as you've clearly stated, is to "raise necessary revenue to fund the gov.t [sic]", and if the government's proper function is NOT to ensure that things are "FAIR", then you've made a great case for raising the top tax rates to 37%, 39%, 54%, 75%, or even 99%, if that is what is deemed "necessary" to fund the government.

And if you don't think that's "FAIR", then that's not my problem, is it? And it certainly isn't the government's job to do what you think is "FAIR", as you've pointed out.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 17, 2011 1:56 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, got that little factoid yet, little Rappy?

No. Of course not.

Without the benefit of the surrounding society, a corporation dies. If society looks at a corporation and says 'work, or die', what work should be demanded of the corporation for it to earn its survival?

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 17, 2011 2:17 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Yep. Tax breaks that businesses can't take. Pretty much all tax breaks, whether for individuals or corporations, are there because someone thought it'd help some segment of the population and economy. Child Credit, EITC, home mortgage deduction, charitable contribution deduction, medical expense deduction, etc. make up a big windfall for individuals - a lot more than corporations get, per the Post article.

Yanno what Geezer? I would gladly give up ALL of those deductions for individuals that corporations "cant take" in return for being able to deduct my ordinary expenses, depreciate my home and car, and take those breaks that businesses CAN take (which BTW includes interest on loans).

EDIT: Apparently my quick look at the tables was a little TOO quick! The $100,000 to $500,000 DO pay the most taxes (44%), but they don't make up 22% of income... more like 39%. So tax burden to income doesn't peak at that income level. THAT maxes out at $2-$5M, and then drops, although it is pretty flat from $0.5M to $10M+. This is a list of income brackets and the percentage of taxes paid by each income bracket relative to the percent of total income made by that bracket.

$25,000-$30,000 0.26
$30,000-$40,000 0.35
$40,000-$50,000 0.46
$50,000-$75,000 0.60
$75,000-$100,000 0.72
$100,000-$200,000 1.04
$0.2M-$0.5M 1.71
$0.5M-$1M 2.11
$1M-$1.5M 2.24
$1.5M-$2M 2.20
$2M-$5M 2.25
$5M-$10M 2.15
$10M+ 2.00

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Monday, October 17, 2011 2:34 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, uh Geezer you know how you whine about how UNFAIR the tax structure is to corporations? When I was posting about corporate loopholes, this is what I meant. And I guarantee you know about this, too. So, why do you continue to flog the same old lies? Lies that you KNOW to be lies ... Says something interesting about you.

http://www.good.is/post/how-american-corporations-pay-no-taxes-in-2010/

YOU PAID MORE IN TAXES THAN AMERICA'S LARGEST CORPORATION

If you pay taxes at all, even one penny, then you paid more to Uncle Sam than a multi-billion dollar company according to the The New York Times.

General Electric, what the Times calls America's largest corporation, paid no taxes at all in 2010 despite global pre-tax income of more than $14 billion.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/ad-lib/2011/apr/10
/tax-evaders-wall-shame/

Top ten list: Tax evaders' wall of shame

EASTON, Md. — April 11, 2011 — When you read about GE paying no corporate federal taxes in 2010 while getting a $3.2 billion rebate, does your blood start to boil?

If you listened to the corporate whining, you probably thought companies like GE paid 35% in federal taxes. Not so. It’s a rare company that ponies up that amount.

For too long the American public has been hornswoggled by this century’s “robber barons.”

1. Bank of America took $336 billion in bailouts in 2009, but in 2010, flush with $4.4 billion in profits, it paid no taxes. Even Forbes magazine asked, how is that possible? Probably thanks to their 115 offshore tax havens.

2. Boeing just received $35 billion from our government to build 179 airborne tankers, but despite nearly $10 billion in profits from 2008 to 2010, it too paid no taxes, again thanks to foreign tax havens.

3. Citicorp took $476 billion from the bailout and then made monster profits in 2010, yet it paid no taxes, thanks to 427 subsidiaries in tax havens like the Cayman Islands and Hong Kong.

4. Exxon/Mobil, received huge oil subsidies from the government and earned $45 billion in 2009 but paid no taxes, again thanks to stashing profits in places like the Bahamas and Singapore.

5. GE – see last week’s column for the stats and facts on this corporation’s tax dodge.

6. Google utilizes a technique that moves most of its income through Ireland and Netherlands to Bermuda, making its tax rate 2.3 percent.

7. Mega Pharmaceuticals Merck earned $9 billion in profits and paid no taxes in 2010, while Pfizer (largest drug maker) owed $10 billion in taxes but found the necessary loopholes to pay no taxes, thanks to its offshore subsidiaries in places like Luxembourg and the Isle of Jersey.

8. News Corporation, Rupert Murdoch’s media monolith that owns Fox News avoids paying American taxes through its 152 subsidiaries in tax havens from the British Virgin Islands to Hong Kong.

9. Verizon, despite making $24.2 billion in pre-tax US income, paid no taxes and actually claimed a federal refund of $1.3 billion for the last two years, again all thanks to those offshore subsidiaries.

10. Wells Fargo, the fourth largest bank in the US, which took $107 billion in bailouts, wrote off all its losses by acquiring Wachovia, thus paying no taxes. Yet its CEO earned $5.6 million in cash for his salary and $13 million in stock.

(Gingrich) defended corporate tax loopholes, saying,“They are an incentive, not a loophole. We should celebrate that as a good thing.”

So let’s dare to dream big and assume that corporations would suddenly feel a surge of social responsibility, deciding to pay their taxes like the rest of us.

No more loopholes for them. No more offshore tax havens. No more accounting gimmicks. The result? Billions of dollars in tax revenue.

Without the benefit of the surrounding society, a corporation dies. If society looks at a corporation and says 'work, or die', what work should be demanded of the corporation for it to earn its survival?

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 17, 2011 4:52 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

So, uh Geezer you know how you whine about how UNFAIR the tax structure is to corporations?

Well, no.

I think the current tax structure is about right for corporations.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, October 17, 2011 5:22 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yanno what Geezer? I would gladly give up ALL of those deductions for individuals that corporations "cant take" in return for being able to deduct my ordinary expenses, depreciate my home and car, and take those breaks that businesses CAN take (which BTW includes interest on loans).

You could set up a tax system like that. However, you'd probably end up paying about the same tax as you do now, either in higher tax rates, or in higher costs for manufactured goods, that there wouldn't be that much difference.

Quote:
EDIT: Apparently my quick look at the tables was a little TOO quick! The $100,000 to $500,000 DO pay the most taxes (44%), but they don't make up 22% of income... more like 39%. So tax burden to income doesn't peak at that income level. THAT maxes out at $2-$5M, and then drops, although it is pretty flat from $0.5M to $10M+.

I appreciate that you realize that.

The upper middle class ($100,000 to $500,000) are a pretty large chunk of the income range. They make a lot of the income and pay a lot of the taxes, but there are also a lot of them. They still pay a good bit less per capita than the folks with AGI above $500,000.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, October 17, 2011 5:54 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I think the current tax structure is about right for corporations."

So you're OK with this:
"The cost of tax expenditure programs for oil and gas companies made up about 88 percent of total federal subsidies in 2006."

And while you think individuals get too many write-offs, for the record so we all know, you're OK with this:

Bank of America
$336 billion in bailouts in 2009
$4.4 billion in profits in 2010
paid no taxes

Boeing
$35 billion in US government orders
$10 billion in profits from 2008 to 2010
paid no taxes

Citicorp
$476 billion in bailouts 2009
$10.6 billion in profits in 2010
paid no taxes

Exxon/Mobil
billions in US oil subsidies
$45 billion in profits in 2009
paid no taxes

GE
$3.2 billion US tax benefit received in 2010
$14.2 billion in profits in 2010
paid no taxes

Google
2.3 percent tax rate

Merck
$9 billion in profits in 2010
paid no taxes

Pfizer
owed $10 billion in taxes but found the necessary loopholes to pay no taxes

News Corporation
$10.4 billion in profits in 2010
paid no taxes

Verizon
refund of $1.3 billion for the last two years
$24.2 billion in profits in 2010
paid no taxes

Wells Fargo
$107 billion in bailouts
wrote off all its losses by acquiring Wachovia
paid no taxes
CEO 'earned' $5.6 million in cash and $13 million in stock

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 17, 2011 6:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

So, uh Geezer you know how you whine about how UNFAIR the tax structure is to corporations?

Well, no.

I think the current tax structure is about right for corporations.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

That so many of them pay nothing, you think is "about right"?

Why am I not surprised?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 17, 2011 6:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Posted by Rappy:

Charlie Gibson was pointing out that, raising the cap gains tax won't necessarily net the govt more money, so why do it ? Obama's response is - 'I don't care that more $ isn't raised, it's just 'fair' that the rich pay more'. Sorry Barry, but that's not the proper function of govt, or taxes, to arbitrarily decide what's FAIR, but to raise necessary revenue to fund the gov.t

Okay, so you readily concede that it's not the proper function of government to decide what's "FAIR" via taxation. Good.

So why do you keep whinging about it not being "FAIR" to have the rich pay more?

What on Earth made you think "FAIR" came into the equation? And if you don't care that life isn't "FAIR" for the poor or middle class, why would you expect an of the 99% to care whether taxation is "FAIR" for the top 1%?

That's the case you can't make.

If the government's proper function, as you've clearly stated, is to "raise necessary revenue to fund the gov.t [sic]", and if the government's proper function is NOT to ensure that things are "FAIR", then you've made a great case for raising the top tax rates to 37%, 39%, 54%, 75%, or even 99%, if that is what is deemed "necessary" to fund the government.

And if you don't think that's "FAIR", then that's not my problem, is it? And it certainly isn't the government's job to do what you think is "FAIR", as you've pointed out.

Still waiting. I'm sure Rappy will address this. Clearly he would never run away, right?

Right?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 17, 2011 7:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GEEZER

Quote:
You could set up a tax system like that. However, you'd probably end up paying about the same tax as you do now, either in higher tax rates, or in higher costs for manufactured goods, that there wouldn't be that much difference.

Yanno what I don't get Geezer? First you say that it doesn't make any difference where taxes come from, then you say it does and that's why corporations should have favorable tax treatment. Either it does make a difference, or it doesn't. Make up your mind, but stop contradicting yourself you're getting as bad as rappy.

And RAPPY hasn't really addressed this either..

Quote:
WHY SHOULD I SUPPORT YOU IN YOUR QUEST TO BE THE NEXT STEVE BALLMER? WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 3:34 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"I think the current tax structure is about right for corporations."

So you're OK with this:
"The cost of tax expenditure programs for oil and gas companies made up about 88 percent of total federal subsidies in 2006."

Since it's a false statement, guess I'm not.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/09/keith-o
lbermann/olbermann-says-oil-and-gas-subsidies-account-88-pe/

Quote:
And while you think individuals get too many write-offs, for the record so we all know, you're OK with this:

Bank of America
$336 billion in bailouts in 2009
$4.4 billion in profits in 2010
paid no taxes

However, in the period 2006-2010 they've paid $17 billion in tax. http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/statemnt.aspx?Symb
ol=BAC

Quote:
Boeing
$35 billion in US government orders
$10 billion in profits from 2008 to 2010
paid no taxes

Per their financial statements, they paid about $3 billion.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/statemnt.aspx?Symb
ol=BA

Quote:
Citicorp
$476 billion in bailouts 2009
$10.6 billion in profits in 2010
paid no taxes

Had $30 billion in LOSSES in 2007-2009, so had loss carryover to apply, and still paid over $2 billion in 2010 tax. http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/statemnt.aspx?Symb
ol=C

Quote:
Exxon/Mobil
billions in US oil subsidies
$45 billion in profits in 2009
paid no taxes

Did. $15 billion in 2009 and $21 billion in 2010. http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/statemnt.aspx?symb
ol=US%3aXOM

Quote:
GE
$3.2 billion US tax benefit received in 2010
$14.2 billion in profits in 2010
paid no taxes

Actually, a bit oveer $1 billion. Around $10 billion in the last 5 years. http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/statemnt.aspx?symb
ol=ge

And I'm gonna assume that the rest are as incorrect as these.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:32 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yanno what I don't get Geezer? First you say that it doesn't make any difference where taxes come from, then you say it does and that's why corporations should have favorable tax treatment. Either it does make a difference, or it doesn't.

What I'm saying is that, although I can see the need for a few tweaks, the current tax system seems to work pretty well to me. I'm against trying wild-eyed proposals like taxing corporations on gross income, or allowing individuals to deduct all their living expenses, because I see all sorts of unintended consequences, most of them bad.

The government's gonna need about the same amount of money to operate, no matter how it gets it.

I don't particularly care if you want to raise taxes on the wealthy, but for goodness sake stop with the crap about them not already paying their "fair" share. You should just admit that you want them to pay even more of your bills.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:01 AM

Geezer, this can all be summed up with parking tickets. I get a $50 ticket, that' a days pay. A wealthy guy gets one, that's a minute's pay.
Simple enough analogy for ya?
They
Don't
Pay
Their
Fair
Share.
(mostly)
Haven't in decades.
Gee, I wish I had RECORD profits in this economy....

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:40 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well Geezer, I suppose you have a beef with the GAO.

http://academic.udayton.edu/clarakim/inequality/articles/6-economic/co
rporate_tax_evasion.htm

Most companies in US avoid federal income taxes

By JENNIFER C. KERR, Associated Press, news.yahoo.com, Aug 12, 2008

Two-thirds of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005, according to a new report from Congress. The study by the Government Accountability Office, expected to be released Tuesday, said about 68 percent of foreign companies doing business in the U.S. avoided corporate taxes over the same period.

Collectively, the companies reported trillions of dollars in sales, according to GAO's estimate. About 25 percent of the U.S. corporations not paying corporate taxes were considered large corporations, meaning they had at least $250 million in assets or $50 million in receipts.

The GAO said it analyzed data from the Internal Revenue Service, examining samples of corporate returns for the years 1998 through 2005. For 2005, for example, it reviewed 110,003 tax returns from among more than 1.2 million corporations doing business in the U.S.

NOW as for you post:

Look here.
My statement
"The cost of tax expenditure programs for oil and gas companies made up about 88 percent of total federal subsidies in 2006."
Your source
"The cost of tax expenditure programs for oil and gas companies made up about 88 percent of total federal subsidies in 2006."

Oh wait wasn't the quote your source cited the exact same quote as mine? Why, YES! It WAS! Nothing false about that quote, dude.

Bank of America

As PER THE STATEMENT YOU LINKED IN 2009 they were refunded 1,916.0, in 2010 they paid 915.0. ie IN THE TWO YEARS THEY PAID NO NET TAXES. In fact, on top of the $336B in bailouts, they got net money back from the Feds.

The statement that BofA paid no taxes is > TRUE <.

But let's look at this some more.

One thing the statements show are ALL THOSE DEDUCTIONS that businesses get that individuals don't. It's right there, for everyone to see. Kinda' hard to cover up, as a matter of fact.

And ... BofA got TARP funds, $336B worth, funds that are claimed to have been repaid. Can YOU find the TARP loan on the statement? Can YOU find the repayment? Neither can I. Man, you'd think something that big would show up - somewhere --- wouldn't you?

So, what does this say about the statement? You tell me.

Now, the OTHER thing this statement doesn't show are the offshore havens.

"The Government Accountability Office released a report that said Bank of America Inc., Citigroup Inc. and Morgan Stanley all had more than 100 units in countries that maintain low or no taxes."

What you are seeing is the income and taxes that show up on the statement - not the stuff that gets off-shored and therefore doesn't get reported to, well, anyone the Feds can see. In other words, what the statement DOESN'T show is the exact thing the GAO cited in its report. Tax EVASION. Allowed by our corporate tax structure, the thing you say is "about right".

So, whinge away, dude. Not everyone is as easily fooled as you think.

Without the benefit of the surrounding society, a corporation dies. If society looks at a corporation and says 'work, or die', what work should be demanded of the corporation for it to earn its survival?

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:44 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, this can all be summed up with parking tickets. I get a $50 ticket, that' a days pay. A wealthy guy gets one, that's a minute's pay.
Simple enough analogy for ya?

Simple's the word, since it has pretty much nothing to do with income tax.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:45 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, this can all be summed up with parking tickets. I get a $50 ticket, that' a days pay. A wealthy guy gets one, that's a minute's pay.
Simple enough analogy for ya?
They
Don't
Pay
Their
Fair
Share.
(mostly)
Haven't in decades.
Gee, I wish I had RECORD profits in this economy....

False analogy. Don't get a ticket, and you'll pay absolutely nothing. They're paying exactly as much as you are, for the same infraction. They're not getting a discount because they're rich, ergo, they're paying their fair share.

But w/ the issue of taxes, they're paying more. You might not like it that they have so much more in the 1st place, but that's besides the point. The 'rich' are footing the bill for more than they earn. THAT'S not 'fair'.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:04 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

ChrisIsAll
"Simple enough analogy for ya?"

Geezer
"Simple's the word, since it has pretty much nothing to do with income tax."

Then you don't know the meaning of the word 'analogy'. I suggest you look it up.

BTW, you never did answer my question - it's in green, below.

Without the benefit of the surrounding society, a corporation dies. If society looks at a corporation and says 'work, or die', what work should be demanded of the corporation for it to earn its survival?

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
it has pretty much nothing to do with income tax.

Ahh, the dodge. It was expected.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:43 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
False analogy. Don't get a ticket, and you'll pay absolutely nothing. They're paying exactly as much as you are, for the same infraction. They're not getting a discount because they're rich, ergo, they're paying their fair share.

Yes, they are paying that same amount, but it hurts them less. I believe it is Germany where ticket fines are based on how much you make. Now that is fair.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:44 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Well Geezer, I suppose you have a beef with the GAO.

Nope. I have a beef with folks who cherrypick GAO reports and make claims either not backed up or not fully explained. It'd also be nice if they'd provide a link to the GAO reports so you could see the actual data. Ah. Found it. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08957.pdf

So, first off, the shocking "Two-thirds of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005." really means they didn't pay tax for one year of the eight year review period. Not quite the same.

BTW, even the stuff you left out when you cherrypicked quotes from your cite explains a lot of why zcorporations don't pay corporate tax sometimes.

"An outside tax expert, Chris Edwards of the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington, said increasing numbers of limited liability corporations and so-called "S" corporations pay taxes under individual tax codes. "Half of all business income in the United States now ends up going through the individual tax code," Edwards said."

And...

"The GAO study did not investigate why corporations weren't paying federal income taxes or corporate taxes and it did not identify any corporations by name. It said companies may escape paying such taxes due to operating losses or because of tax credits."

So a lot of the income for small corporations is taxed as income for individuals rather than the corporstion, and a lot of corporations have losses and loss carryovers.

Quote:
NOW as for you post:

Look here.
My statement
"The cost of tax expenditure programs for oil and gas companies made up about 88 percent of total federal subsidies in 2006."
Your source
"The cost of tax expenditure programs for oil and gas companies made up about 88 percent of total federal subsidies in 2006."

Oh wait wasn't the quote your source cited the exact same quote as mine? Why, YES! It WAS! Nothing false about that quote, dude.

Why do I even bother?

My cite was a Politifact article (which you obviously didn't bother to read) saying that the quote by Ken Olbermann "The cost of tax expenditure programs for oil and gas companies made up about 88 percent of total federal subsidies in 2006." was FALSE. It even has the little Truth-O-Meter dial face showing false.

Quote:
Bank of America
As PER THE STATEMENT YOU LINKED IN 2009 they were refunded 1,916.0, in 2010 they paid 915.0. ie IN THE TWO YEARS THEY PAID NO NET TAXES. In fact, on top of the $336B in bailouts, they got net money back from the Feds.

The statement that BofA paid no taxes is > TRUE <.

Actually, they had a $1.916 million credit for taxes they had overpaid in previous years that they applied against 2009 tax.

Quote:
But let's look at this some more. BofA got TARP funds, $336B worth,

Actually $45 billion. And it was repaid in 2009.
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/12/10/bank-of-america-finishes-tarp-r
epayment/

BTW, they paid aroud $2.5 billion in dividends on the TARP loan to the government. http://www.dailymarkets.com/stock/2009/10/05/bank-of-america-to-pay-ta
rp-dividends/

Quote:
So, what does this say about the statement? You tell me...

Okay. It tells me it's a very high level summary that doesn't show every source of income or expense.

Quote:
Now, the OTHER thing this statement doesn't show are the offshore havens.

"The Government Accountability Office released a report that said Bank of America Inc., Citigroup Inc. and Morgan Stanley all had more than 100 units in countries that maintain low or no taxes."

Wow!!! International corporations have offices overseas! Stop the presses!

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
They're paying exactly as much as you are, for the same infraction.

You DOPE.
A parking ticket is a fine intended to discourage a particular vehicle-related behaviour. If MY fine was a minutes worth of my income, HOW PRECISELY WOULD THAT DISCOURAGE ME???

And another time with my question that was not answered from like a week ago: If corporate taxes were so heavy & unfair back in the Fifties, how is it there WERE any rich people?

And 'for more than they earn' is straight up brainwashed BS.
Make a little, pay a little. Make a lot, pay a lot. But that's too simple for you, you need it all bent.

Spock: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:56 AM

America loves a winner!

Points add up on ones license, too. If the $ amount doesn't deter ya, then the revoking of the license will.
Quit your fussin'.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:59 AM

DALEK!

Non-moving violations do not add points.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:15 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Jeezus fucking christ.

"... > cherrypick < ... > make claims either not backed up or not fully explained < ... > really means they didn't pay tax for one year of the eight year review period <"

You link the GAO report and miss the graph on the OPENING PAGE which shows > 66% of all FCDCs < paid NO TAXES EVERY SINGLE YEAR in that time span.

http://www.finfacts.ie/artman/uploads/2/US_tax_aug132008.JPG

Not one year here or there for one company here or there - an ongoing percentage for EACH AND EVERY YEAR.

LET ME REPEAT THAT - EVERY SINGLE YEAR IN THAT TIME SPAN 66% OF ALL FCDS PAID NO TAXES.

I'm not going to even fucking bother to read the rest of your post.

EVERY SINGLE YEAR BETWEEN 1996 AND 2005 66% OF ALL FCDS CORPORATIONS PAID NO TAXES.
I think the current tax structure is about right for corporations. - Geezer

Without the benefit of the surrounding society, a corporation dies. If society looks at a corporation and says 'work, or die', what work should be demanded of the corporation for it to earn its survival?

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:28 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Non-moving violations do not add points.

Well then, great! Chrissy's safe.

But this lunacy of charging more for those who have more, hell, why not charge the rich $ 15 for a 0.99 cent burger ?

Idiots.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:10 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But this lunacy of charging more for those who have more, hell, why not charge the rich $ 15 for a 0.99 cent burger ?

Why not? Then the Rich man would appreciate that burger just as much as the poor man.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:15 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But this lunacy of charging more for those who have more, hell, why not charge the rich $ 15 for a 0.99 cent burger ?

Why not? Then the Rich man would appreciate that burger just as much as the poor man.

How do you know that ? It's obvious you've never run a business, or know anything about basic economics.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:30 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How do you know that ? It's obvious you've never run a business, or know anything about basic economics.

....because people hardly ever appreciate things that cost very little to them.

Basically have run two businesses, and know enough about economics to realize that charging a Rich person more for a ticket makes it more of a deterrent for them. I also know enough to realize that the wealthy do not drive economies, the middle and lower incomes do.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

But this lunacy of charging more for those who have more, hell, why not charge the rich $ 15 for a 0.99 cent burger ?

Idiots.

Whoah whoah whoah, we don't need MORE proof that you're clueless! Stop!
LOL!

A burger is an item offered for a set price. After Tony Stark escaped his captors, he probably spent, like, $6 at Burger King before the interview.

I'm talkin' taxes & fines here. Don't obfuscate.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, this can all be summed up with parking tickets. I get a $50 ticket, that' a days pay. A wealthy guy gets one, that's a minute's pay.
Simple enough analogy for ya?
They
Don't
Pay
Their
Fair
Share.
(mostly)
Haven't in decades.
Gee, I wish I had RECORD profits in this economy....

The laughing Chrisisall

Not to mention all your speeding fines. You bad boy Chris.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

But w/ the issue of taxes, they're paying more. You might not like it that they have so much more in the 1st place, but that's besides the point. The 'rich' are footing the bill for more than they earn. THAT'S not 'fair'.

The rich are not suffering. They won't suffer if the tax rate changes either, unlike those people you'd like to chuck off welfare or deny hospital treatment and healthcare.

Even if they do nothing, their wealth will continue to increase. What is unfair?

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:38 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

But w/ the issue of taxes, they're paying more. You might not like it that they have so much more in the 1st place, but that's besides the point. The 'rich' are footing the bill for more than they earn. THAT'S not 'fair'.

The rich are not suffering. They won't suffer if the tax rate changes either, unlike those people you'd like to chuck off welfare or deny hospital treatment and healthcare.

Even if they do nothing, their wealth will continue to increase. What is unfair?

So it's nothing more than schadenfreude you want, and not so much fairness, right ?

Why not just come out and say so.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 11:49 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"So it's nothing more than schadenfreude you want, and not so much fairness, right ?

Why not just come out and say so."

And YOU need to look up the meaning of 'schadenfreude'. Don't use words if you don't understand them. You may THINK it makes you look important, but it makes you look impotent.

EVERY SINGLE YEAR BETWEEN 1996 AND 2005 66% OF ALL FCDS CORPORATIONS PAID NO TAXES.
I think the current tax structure is about right for corporations. - Geezer

Without the benefit of the surrounding society, a corporation dies. If society looks at a corporation and says 'work, or die', what work should be demanded of the corporation for it to earn its survival?

While Wall St. is going through the roof, Main St. is paying all the bills.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yanno what I don't get Geezer? First you say that it doesn't make any difference where taxes come from, then you say it does and that's why corporations should have favorable tax treatment. Either it does make a difference, or it doesn't.

What I'm saying is that, although I can see the need for a few tweaks, the current tax system seems to work pretty well to me. I'm against trying wild-eyed proposals like taxing corporations on gross income, or allowing individuals to deduct all their living expenses, because I see all sorts of unintended consequences, most of them bad.

The government's gonna need about the same amount of money to operate, no matter how it gets it.

I don't particularly care if you want to raise taxes on the wealthy, but for goodness sake stop with the crap about them not already paying their "fair" share. You should just admit that you want them to pay even more of your bills.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Rappy keeps insisting that the government has zero to do with "fair", and what is and what isn't "fair". So let's just dispense with that whiney little "we pay more than our fair share" bit already. It's old, and it's not true.

You keep saying the rich pay more than their "fair share" of income taxes. Even supposing I agreed with that (I don't; see above for why), the "rich" still aren't paying anywhere close to their "fair share" in payroll taxes, capital gains taxes, etc.

Want to make things "fair"? Get rid of the cap on payroll taxes - everyone pays the same percentage on every nickel they get - wages, tips, earnings, AND CAPITAL GAINS. Oh, and while you're at it, capital gains should be counted as "income" if more than a few thousand dollars comes from them.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:03 PM

America loves a winner!

It was you who said...

Quote:
The rich are not suffering.

Seems to me, that's the ultimate end game you're after.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

I believe it is Germany where ticket fines are based on how much you make. Now that is fair.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

From the wiki:

Quote:
The most expensive speeding ticket ever given is believed to be the one given to Jussi Salonoja in Helsinki, Finland, in 2003. Salonoja, the 27-year-old heir to a company in the meat-industry, was fined 170,000 euros for driving 80 km/h in a 40 km/h zone. The uncommonly large fine was due to Finnish speeding tickets being relative to the offender's last known income. Salonoja's speeding ticket was not the first ticket given in Finland reaching six figures.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:11 PM

Reposting because Rappy keeps avoiding this one.

Quote:
Posted by Rappy:

Charlie Gibson was pointing out that, raising the cap gains tax won't necessarily net the govt more money, so why do it ? Obama's response is - 'I don't care that more $ isn't raised, it's just 'fair' that the rich pay more'. Sorry Barry, but that's not the proper function of govt, or taxes, to arbitrarily decide what's FAIR, but to raise necessary revenue to fund the gov.t

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:21 PM

America loves a winner!

Case was made, though you don't / won't acknowledge it.

You're arbitrarily adding different arguments and comments from different threads.

The purpose of taxes is to raise $ for the federal govt. Gibson got Obama to state he doesn't care if raising the cap gains tax doesn't achieve the goal of generating more revenue, which is all that taxes should be.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:52 PM

So your point is that taxes should only raise revenue to fund the government, and hang being "fair" about it.

Okay, we need to raise taxes on the top marginal rate to 94%, just like it was in the 50s.

Make the case AGAINST doing so, and do it without saying anything about what's "fair" and what isn't, since you freely admit that "fair" has nothing to do with taxation. It would certainly raise revenue and cut deficits.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:58 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I don't particularly care if you want to raise taxes on the wealthy, but for goodness sake stop with the crap about them not already paying their "fair" share. You should just admit that you want them to pay even more of your bills.

Did I say anything about "fair"?

AFA "my" bills....

THE BIGGEST EXPENDITURE IS THE DOD.

Not "my" expenditure. If anything, most of "our" wars seem to be at the behest of oil companies, mercs and contractors lately.

SOCIAL SECURITY IS SELF FUNDED, NOT BY INCOME TAX, AND IS SOLVENT.

So, no problem there.

MEDICARE SHOULD BE SELF-FUNDED AND NEEDS REFORM, but Medicare is not about income tax.

AND THEN THERE IS TARP.

So, what are you taking about?

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Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:40 PM