REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Mythical expansion of government

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 14:28
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Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Paul Krugman has a good column on this, and breaks down the rise in federal spending under Obama:

Quote:

The Obama Spending Non-Surge
Blogging is a lot like teaching the same class year after year; you’re always encountering the same arguments you’ve refuted in the past, and you want to demand why they weren’t listening the last time.

Anyway, what I’m seeing in comments and reactions, once again, is the claim that Obama has presided over a vast expansion of government — a claim backed not by describing any specific programs, but by pointing to the share of federal spending in GDP. Indeed, federal spending rose from 19.6% of GDP in 2007 to 23.8% in 2010 (it was briefly 25 in 2009, but that was a number distorted by the financial bailouts). So there has been a roughly 4 points of GDP rise in the spending share. What’s that about?

Well, part of the answer is that the ratio is up because the denominator is down. According to CBO estimates, in fiscal 2010 the economy operated about 7 percent below potential. This means that even if what the government was doing hadn’t changed, the federal spending share of GDP would have risen by 1.4 percentage points.

Then, look inside the budget data (pdf), specifically at Table E-10. You’ll see a surge in spending on “income security”; that’s basically unemployment insurance, food stamps, and similar items. In other words, spending on safety-net programs is up because the economy is depressed, and more people are falling into the safety net.

You’ll also see a sharp rise in Medicaid; again, this is because the lousy economy has pushed more people into hardship, making them eligible for the program.

I’ve done a bit of number-crunching, and here’s my allocation of the sources of the rise in federal spending as a share of GDP:



So a depressed economy plus safety net programs that have grown as a result of a depressed economy are, overwhelmingly, the real story here.

What’s in that “other” category? Some of it is stimulus spending. Some of it is the leading wave of the baby boomers, who are starting to collect Social Security and enter Medicare. Some of it is rising health care costs.

What isn’t there, no way, nohow, is a massive expansion of government, which is a figment of the right wing’s imagination.



http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/the-obama-spending-non-sur
ge
/

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, November 28, 2011 8:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

How can a group preside over the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, with the expansion of subordinate agencies, and then lament the growing Federal government?

The truth is, it’s not an argument about big versus small. It’s an argument about big here or big there.

One side wants it big here, the other side wants it big there.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, November 28, 2011 9:23 AM

BYTEMITE


I understood Krugman about the European Banks, but this talk about potential just made my eyes go crossed. And even taking out this 1.4% he says accounts for being "below potential" it's still an increase from 19.6% to 22.4%.

I remain firm in my belief that economics is mostly gibberish. Percentage is of Federal Spending to GDP, a ratio by it's nature accounts for changes in both the numerator and denominator, so I don't understand what he thinks isn't being represented in the year to year, so WTH is he talking about "potentials?"

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Monday, November 28, 2011 9:42 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Krugman said:

" According to CBO estimates, in fiscal 2010 the economy operated about 7 percent below potential."

I don't know exactly what that means (though I get a vague idea just from what the words mean). I guess because of the effects of the credit crunch businesses performed worse than they could have.

When Krugman says, "What this means is..." he's just talking about the effect on the spending/GDP ratio that comes from GDP (the denominator) shrinking - he's not trying to describe what an economy's potential is.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, November 28, 2011 9:47 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

One side wants it big here, the other side wants it big there.


I think that neither side wants it big; just one side wants it small - except in places where it doesn't.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, November 28, 2011 10:21 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

he's just talking about the effect on the spending/GDP ratio that comes from GDP (the denominator) shrinking - he's not trying to describe what an economy's potential is.


I get that, but the point doesn't make sense mathematically.

Even if the GDP is smaller and spending is smaller, the ratio of GDP to spending from year to year is still just a ratio.

Okay, so I just grabbed numbers off wikipedia to do this fresh. It's 19.9/100 when GDP in 2007 was 14,061,800 million dollars and Federal Spending was 2,811,000 million dollars. And it's 24.4/100 when GDP was in 2010 was 14,526,550 million dollars, and Federal Spending was 3,551,000 million dollars (I'm assuming he's saying both are smaller because of inflation? I guess?).

Now, he's using different numbers than I am, he probably got his GDP from a different source, but the percentages are ballpark and do you see what I'm saying? A ratio is a ratio.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:19 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

do you see what I'm saying? A ratio is a ratio.


Sorry, I'm not sure I do. Krugman is answering other people who are citing the increase in the ratio (spending/GDP) as evidence for an explosion in the size of government. He shows that most of the increase in the ratio is attributable (directly and indirectly) to the economy - not any massive expansion of government on Obama's part. That's his main point. I'm not sure if your problem is with that, or something else...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:29 AM

BYTEMITE


Spending may not necessarily equal an increase in size of government, and ultimately, I don't think anyone can argue that Obama has created something like the Department of Homeland Security (now THAT'S an increase in government size and illicit use of power).

But Krugman's almost bumping up against saying that SPENDING hasn't increased, which is contrary to the facts. And he hasn't proved ANYTHING about the ratio, only tried to explain it away as something about "potentials." Basically, he has shown NOTHING. Tossing out a buzz word is not a meaningful argument!

Percent of Federal Spending to GDP each year is Federal Spending over GDP. Nowhere in there is it necessary to adjust ANYTHING in the context of the economy of previous years, and using the 2007 economy is just plain arbitrary. Maybe he's using that as a baseline before the economy slumped (in which case I question him using a bubble as a baseline for normal economic "potential") or he's trying to say that the GWB government was bigger than the Obama government. That may or may not be valid, but even using his own adjustment of 1.4% it's STILL more spending in 2010 than 2007. I mean, he can't even make the point that 2010 budgets are lower than 2009 budgets because of the 2009 bailouts that GWB already committed too, because the 2010 budget is STILL HIGHER.

But for absolute certain the ratio is representative of federal spending, BY DEFINITION, and by making it a ratio of the GDP, you're ALREADY accounting for good economic years versus bad economic years. We're spending more on support nets, which seems to ultimately be his point, but that's also not something you can really just ignore when you're talking about whether there's been an increase in spending (because there has).

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:21 PM

DREAMTROVE



Krugman isn't a moron, he's just trying to deceive the sheeple.

Obama's splurge wasn't in the budget, it was extra-bugetary.

1) Bailouts totally 3 trillion
2) The absorption of corporate mortgage debt, 5 trillion of it.
3) 16 trillion in loans at the discount.

That 24 trillion total turns out to be just what Obama's own inspector general for the splurge said it would be when he opposed expanding it past the 350 billion Bush had spent on TARP.

Anyway, it's Obama's increase in spending that has resulted in his absurd deficits, most of which no longer appear on the official deficit of $15 trillion.



Revenue is fairly static, so deficit jumps only occur when spending increases. With Bush, the big spending increase was extra-budgetary war supplementals. Those supplementals continue, but they no longer represent change over previous policy, so the new jumps are caused by spending, through various mechanisms, as I suggested above.

No amount of "not sinking" apologism is going to prevent us from sinking. At this point, and politicking for the 2012 election would be pointless though, as this is more about who gets to captain the titanic after it has already hit the iceberg.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:45 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

But for absolute certain the ratio is representative of federal spending, BY DEFINITION


No, because it's entirely conceivable that spending could stay constant and GDP shrink, and then the ratio would increase. A ratio is by definition TWO THINGS in proportion to one another. The spending/GDP ratio has its uses undoubtedly, but doesn't really have much relevance to this debate.

Quote:

But Krugman's almost bumping up against saying that SPENDING hasn't increased

He's not saying that, not by a long way. 3 of the 4 sectors of the Pie chart are increased government spending. The point is that 2 of those 3 are indirectly attributable to the economy (people falling into the safety net, at the government's expense), and not attributable to Obama.

Quote:

and using the 2007 economy is just plain arbitrary.

I believe the people Krugman is refuting choose that date as a recent low-point of government spending to compare to the current levels.

Quote:

We're spending more on support nets, which seems to ultimately be his point, but that's also not something you can really just ignore when you're talking about whether there's been an increase in spending


He's highlighting the difference between a swelling of existing government programs (in exceptional circumstances), and a massive expansion of new government programs, which people are claiming, but only exist via dodgy/disingenuous maths. To you and many other taxpayers this may sound like the same thing - an increase in spending; but the point is Obama could be blamed for one but not the other.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:53 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Revenue is fairly static, so deficit jumps only occur when spending increases.


Take another look at your own graph. We can see clearly that revenue plunges,

1) When the economy sinks
2) In response to tax cuts that don't pay for themselves

So any honest attempt to explain the deficit/debt has to include these two factors.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:55 PM

BYTEMITE


Um, Kpo. I POSTED verifiable number figures for BOTH parts of the ratio, as in, ALL TWO COMPONENTS, and did the calculation.

Not only did GDP INCREASE according to wikipedia, so did spending, but spending increased more than GDP, resulting in a higher ratio.

Quote:

The spending/GDP ratio has its uses undoubtedly, but doesn't really have much relevance to this debate.



We might actually agree here, depending on what the debate is. If it's about government waste OR about government size (as measured by jobs or money spent on enforcement), then it's not relevant. If it's about whether Federal Spending has increased or not, it's relevant.

If Krugman had just left it at "government not getting bigger" I wouldn't have touched it, but he then seemed to almost try to show that Federal Spending hasn't increased using fuzzy math and buzzwords. Not only does his fuzzy math not work out, but his assumptions underlying his fuzzy math are incorrect.

Quote:

He's highlighting the difference between a swelling of existing government programs (in exceptional circumstances), and a massive expansion of new government programs, which people are claiming, but only exist via dodgy/disingenuous maths. To you and many other taxpayers this may sound like the same thing - an increase in spending; but the point is Obama could be blamed for one but not the other.


Ehhh... Okay. Just so long as he doesn't cross over into downplaying the Federal Spending thing, which he really seemed to be doing with that nonsense about ratios and potentials. But I'll concede those are irrelevant to the point stated above.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:20 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Not only did GDP INCREASE

Ah ok, I missed that, fair point - it is more complex than I thought. I guess it still makes sense though, GDP has an upwards trend and government spending is tied to it. GDP can underperform (simply by not growing as forecast) and then government spending automatically outstrips it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:28 PM

BYTEMITE


That's potentially a viable interpretation, though I still think the values may speak for themselves.

But to be fair, the GDP in 2010 did not meet expectations relative to inflation, despite being higher than the 2007 GDP.

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